Why is Jesus referred to as the Morning Star?

  • Christian Chat is a moderated online Christian community allowing Christians around the world to fellowship with each other in real time chat via webcam, voice, and text, with the Christian Chat app. You can also start or participate in a Bible-based discussion here in the Christian Chat Forums, where members can also share with each other their own videos, pictures, or favorite Christian music.

    If you are a Christian and need encouragement and fellowship, we're here for you! If you are not a Christian but interested in knowing more about Jesus our Lord, you're also welcome! Want to know what the Bible says, and how you can apply it to your life? Join us!

    To make new Christian friends now around the world, click here to join Christian Chat.

posthuman

Senior Member
Jul 31, 2013
30,521
9,992
113
#81
Seems logical to me, there are cases of demon possessions in the Bible, seem a stretch to say satan could not also
Judas Iscariot is the only example in all of scripture given where Satan himself entered a person.
 

posthuman

Senior Member
Jul 31, 2013
30,521
9,992
113
#82
As for the scripture in Isaiah 14 and the confusion many people have about the earthly human king and lucifer both being mentioned in the same scripture as if they are talking about the same person..

People can and sometimes are possessed by demons.. Can satan posses a man? A human king? maybe a King of Babylon..... Yes i believe he can if God allows it.. So a message is sent to a human king but as the message is given another message is given to the spirit that is with the human king..

Like an exorcist who can talk to a person and then address the demon that possess them..
the explanation is often given, and i think is the right one, that this passage, as well as in Ezekiel 28, is speaking directly about an human king, and likening him to Satan, so that references to both are interwoven into one passage. Ezekiel 28 isn't all about the king of Tyre, nor is it all about the devil. in the same way many Psalms contain Messianic prophesy while simultaneously speaking about David, or about the people of Jacob - for example in Psalm 22, in one sentence we are reading about Christ, and the next about Israel, who Christ came as a child of, and who typifies Him also with portions of its history. the kings of Tyre and Babylon became pictures of Satan and in prophesying about them, God has things to say of both, intermingled. it's really just a literary style/device we see in these things, that if we learn to recognize, we see again in many places in the Bible.
 
Mar 28, 2016
15,958
1,523
113
#83
this separation between the Lamb and Jesus is shown in the book of Revelation when it says who the Lamb is and it says who Jesus is. The biggest difference between Jesus and the Lamb is the Lion of Judah. The Lamb is the Lion of Judah but Jesus is not the Lion of Judah. They are both the Root of David but they are NOT both the Lion of Judah.
I would think the lion of Judah would represent the lion that lays down with the Lamb. The new order, signifying no corrupted flesh eaters as flesh and blood kingdoms or sects, against flesh and blood kingdoms. The temporal kingdoms of this world become the eternal Kingdom when and where the glory of God will light it . A sign of eternal piece.

Isaiah 11:6 The wolf also shall dwell with the lamb, and the leopard shall lie down with the kid; and the calf and the young lion and the fatling together; and a little child shall lead them.


Isaiah 65:25 The wolf and the lamb shall feed together, and the lion shall eat straw like the bullock: and dust shall be the serpent's meat. They shall not hurt nor destroy in all my holy mountain, saith the Lord.

Revelation 11:15 And the seventh angel sounded; and there were great voices in heaven, saying, The kingdoms of this world are become the kingdoms of our Lord, and of his Christ; and he shall reign for ever and ever.
 
Jun 10, 2019
4,304
1,652
113
#84
Judas Iscariot is the only example in all of scripture given where Satan himself entered a person.
then it seems it is would fulled be some what similar


Acts 5:3
Then Peter said, "Ananias, how is it that Satan has filled your heart to lie to the Holy Spirit and withhold some of the proceeds from the land?
 

TheLearner

Well-known member
Jan 14, 2019
1,610
360
83
#85
As for the scripture in Isaiah 14 and the confusion many people have about the earthly human king and lucifer both being mentioned in the same scripture as if they are talking about the same person..

People can and sometimes are possessed by demons.. Can satan posses a man? A human king? maybe a King of Babylon..... Yes i believe he can if God allows it.. So a message is sent to a human king but as the message is given another message is given to the spirit that is with the human king..

Like an exorcist who can talk to a person and then address the demon that possess them..
No Confusion,

Isaiah 14 Modern English Version (MEV)
The Restoration of Judah
14 For the Lord will have mercy on Jacob,
and will yet choose Israel,
and set them in their own land.
Then the strangers shall be joined with them,
and they shall cleave to the house of Jacob.
2 The people shall take them
and bring them to their place,
and the house of Israel shall possess them
in the land of the Lord for servants and handmaids;
and they shall take them captive, whose captives they were,
and they shall rule over their oppressors.

The Fall of Babylon’s King
3 In the day the Lord gives you rest from your sorrow, and from your fear, and from the hard bondage in which you were made to serve, 4 you shall take up this proverb against the king of Babylon, and say:

How has the oppressor ceased!
The golden city ceased!
5 The Lord has broken the staff of the wicked,
and the scepter of the rulers;
6 he who struck the people in wrath with unceasing strokes,
he who ruled the nations in anger, is persecuted, and no one hinders.
7 The whole earth is at rest and is quiet;
they break forth into singing.
8 Indeed, the fir trees rejoice at you,
and the cedars of Lebanon, saying,
“Since you are laid down,
no tree cutter has come up against us.”

9 Hell from beneath is moved for you
to meet you at your coming;
it stirs up the dead for you,
even all the chief ones of the earth;
it has raised up from their thrones
all the kings of the nations.

10 They all shall speak
and say to you:
“Have you also become as weak as we have?
Have you become like us?”
11 Your pomp is brought down to Hell,
and the noise of your harps;
maggots are spread under you,
and the worms cover you.


12 How are you fallen from heaven,
O Lucifer, son of the morning!
How you are cut down to the ground,
you who weaken the nations!
13 For you have said in your heart,
“I will ascend into heaven,
I will exalt my throne
above the stars of God;
I will sit also on the mount of the congregation,
in the recesses of the north;
14 I will ascend above the heights of the clouds,
I will be like the Most High.”
15 Yet you shall be brought down to Hell,
to the sides of the pit.


16 Those who see you shall stare at you
and ponder over you:
Is this the man who made the earth
to tremble and shook kingdoms,
17 who made the world as a wilderness
and destroyed its cities,

who did not open the house of his prisoners?”

18 All the kings of the nations, even all of them, lie in glory,
each one in his own tomb;
19 but you are cast out of your grave
like an abominable branch
and clothed with those who are slain,
thrust through with a sword,
who go down to the stones of the pit
as a corpse trodden underfoot.
20 You shall not be joined with them in burial
because you have destroyed your land
and slain your people.

The seed of evildoers
shall never be renowned.
21 Prepare a place of slaughter for his children
for the iniquity of their fathers;
they must not rise nor possess the land,
nor fill the face of the world with cities.

22 For I will rise up against them,
says the Lord of Hosts,
and cut off from Babylon the name, and remnant,
and son, and nephew,
says the Lord.

23 I will also make it a possession for the hedgehog
and pools of water,
and I will sweep it with the broom of destruction,
says the Lord of Hosts.

An Oracle Concerning Assyria
24 The Lord of Hosts has sworn, saying:

Surely as I have thought, so shall it come to pass,
and as I have purposed, so shall it stand:
25 that I will break the Assyrian in My land,
and on My mountains tread him under foot.
Then shall his yoke depart from off them
and his burden depart from off their shoulders.

26 This is the purpose that is purposed on the whole earth,
and this is the hand that is stretched out on all the nations.
27 For the Lord of Hosts has purposed, and who shall disannul it?
And His hand is stretched out, and who shall turn it back?

An Oracle Concerning Philistia
28 In the year that King Ahaz died was this oracle:

29 Rejoice not, O Philistia, all of you,
because the rod that struck you is broken;
for out of the serpent’s root shall come forth a viper,
and his fruit shall be a fiery flying serpent.
30 The firstborn of the poor shall feed,
and the needy shall lie down in safety:
and I will kill your root with famine,
and he shall slay your remnant.

31 Wail, O gate. Cry, O city.
Melt away, O Philistia, all of you;
for smoke shall come from the north,
and there is no straggler in his ranks.
32 What shall one then answer
the messengers of the nation?
That the Lord has founded Zion,
and the poor of His people shall trust in it.
 

Adstar

Senior Member
Jul 24, 2016
6,457
2,930
113
#86
No Confusion,

Isaiah 14 Modern English Version (MEV)
The Restoration of Judah
14 For the Lord will have mercy on Jacob,
and will yet choose Israel,
and set them in their own land.
Then the strangers shall be joined with them,
and they shall cleave to the house of Jacob.
2 The people shall take them
and bring them to their place,
and the house of Israel shall possess them
in the land of the Lord for servants and handmaids;
and they shall take them captive, whose captives they were,
and they shall rule over their oppressors.

The Fall of Babylon’s King
3 In the day the Lord gives you rest from your sorrow, and from your fear, and from the hard bondage in which you were made to serve, 4 you shall take up this proverb against the king of Babylon, and say:

How has the oppressor ceased!
The golden city ceased!
5 The Lord has broken the staff of the wicked,
and the scepter of the rulers;
6 he who struck the people in wrath with unceasing strokes,
he who ruled the nations in anger, is persecuted, and no one hinders.
7 The whole earth is at rest and is quiet;
they break forth into singing.
8 Indeed, the fir trees rejoice at you,
and the cedars of Lebanon, saying,
“Since you are laid down,
no tree cutter has come up against us.”

9 Hell from beneath is moved for you
to meet you at your coming;
it stirs up the dead for you,
even all the chief ones of the earth;
it has raised up from their thrones
all the kings of the nations.

10 They all shall speak
and say to you:
“Have you also become as weak as we have?
Have you become like us?”
11 Your pomp is brought down to Hell,
and the noise of your harps;
maggots are spread under you,
and the worms cover you.


12 How are you fallen from heaven,
O Lucifer, son of the morning!
How you are cut down to the ground,
you who weaken the nations!
13 For you have said in your heart,
“I will ascend into heaven,
I will exalt my throne
above the stars of God;
I will sit also on the mount of the congregation,
in the recesses of the north;
14 I will ascend above the heights of the clouds,
I will be like the Most High.”
15 Yet you shall be brought down to Hell,
to the sides of the pit.


16 Those who see you shall stare at you
and ponder over you:
Is this the man who made the earth
to tremble and shook kingdoms,
17 who made the world as a wilderness
and destroyed its cities,

who did not open the house of his prisoners?”

18 All the kings of the nations, even all of them, lie in glory,
each one in his own tomb;
19 but you are cast out of your grave
like an abominable branch
and clothed with those who are slain,
thrust through with a sword,
who go down to the stones of the pit
as a corpse trodden underfoot.
20 You shall not be joined with them in burial
because you have destroyed your land
and slain your people.

The seed of evildoers
shall never be renowned.
21 Prepare a place of slaughter for his children
for the iniquity of their fathers;
they must not rise nor possess the land,
nor fill the face of the world with cities.

22 For I will rise up against them,
says the Lord of Hosts,
and cut off from Babylon the name, and remnant,
and son, and nephew,
says the Lord.

23 I will also make it a possession for the hedgehog
and pools of water,
and I will sweep it with the broom of destruction,
says the Lord of Hosts.

An Oracle Concerning Assyria
24 The Lord of Hosts has sworn, saying:

Surely as I have thought, so shall it come to pass,
and as I have purposed, so shall it stand:
25 that I will break the Assyrian in My land,
and on My mountains tread him under foot.
Then shall his yoke depart from off them
and his burden depart from off their shoulders.

26 This is the purpose that is purposed on the whole earth,
and this is the hand that is stretched out on all the nations.
27 For the Lord of Hosts has purposed, and who shall disannul it?
And His hand is stretched out, and who shall turn it back?

An Oracle Concerning Philistia
28 In the year that King Ahaz died was this oracle:

29 Rejoice not, O Philistia, all of you,
because the rod that struck you is broken;
for out of the serpent’s root shall come forth a viper,
and his fruit shall be a fiery flying serpent.
30 The firstborn of the poor shall feed,
and the needy shall lie down in safety:
and I will kill your root with famine,
and he shall slay your remnant.

31 Wail, O gate. Cry, O city.
Melt away, O Philistia, all of you;
for smoke shall come from the north,
and there is no straggler in his ranks.
32 What shall one then answer
the messengers of the nation?
That the Lord has founded Zion,
and the poor of His people shall trust in it.
Whats the point of just posting a wall of scripture ???

A wall that has nothing to do with my point..
 

TheLearner

Well-known member
Jan 14, 2019
1,610
360
83
#87
Whats the point of just posting a wall of scripture ???

A wall that has nothing to do with my point..
I highlighted the parts that shows it is about a human person, not a fallen angel. Even the Titles indicates that it was about the king of babylon.
 

Adstar

Senior Member
Jul 24, 2016
6,457
2,930
113
#88
I highlighted the parts that shows it is about a human person, not a fallen angel. Even the Titles indicates that it was about the king of babylon.
Well i guess we shall agree to disagree then.. You believe it is all about a human king and i believe it is about a human King and satan..
 

TheLearner

Well-known member
Jan 14, 2019
1,610
360
83
#89
Well i guess we shall agree to disagree then.. You believe it is all about a human king and i believe it is about a human King and satan..
I am reading it in context. The thing about Satan is speculative. Unless I am mistaken, Satan fell before Adam and Eve did. The King of Babylon died a long time after that. Basically the timing for the fall of Satan does not fit the timeline.
 

Adstar

Senior Member
Jul 24, 2016
6,457
2,930
113
#90
I am reading it in context. The thing about Satan is speculative. Unless I am mistaken, Satan fell before Adam and Eve did. The King of Babylon died a long time after that. Basically the timing for the fall of Satan does not fit the timeline.
You seem to assume that satan was cast out of heaven before Adam and Eve took on the knowledge of good and evil? Did you discover this by reading the Bible or where you told this by your church or some preacher?
 

TheLearner

Well-known member
Jan 14, 2019
1,610
360
83
#91
You seem to assume that satan was cast out of heaven before Adam and Eve took on the knowledge of good and evil? Did you discover this by reading the Bible or where you told this by your church or some preacher?

off the top of my head,

1 John 3:8 ESV
Whoever makes a practice of sinning is of the devil, for the devil has been sinning from the beginning. The reason the Son of God appeared was to destroy the works of the devil.

John 8:44 ESV
You are of your father the devil, and your will is to do your father's desires. He was a murderer from the beginning, and has nothing to do with the truth, because there is no truth in him. When he lies, he speaks out of his own character, for he is a liar and the father of lies.

Revelation 12:9 ESV
And the great dragon was thrown down, that ancient serpent, who is called the devil and Satan, the deceiver of the whole world—he was thrown down to the earth, and his angels were thrown down with him.

2 Corinthians 11:3 ESV
But I am afraid that as the serpent deceived Eve by his cunning, your thoughts will be led astray from a sincere and pure devotion to Christ.

Job 1:7 ESV
The Lord said to Satan, “From where have you come?” Satan answered the Lord and said, “From going to and fro on the earth, and from walking up and down on it.” Note: Satan can simply mean adversary.

Revelation 20:2 ESV
And he seized the dragon, that ancient serpent, who is the devil and Satan, and bound him for a thousand years,

Genesis 3:1 ESV
Now the serpent was more crafty than any other beast of the field that the Lord God had made. He said to the woman, “Did God actually say, ‘You shall not eat of any tree in the garden’?”

Note: I was there, so we can argue from silence that the serpent was not literal or that it was. But, the quotes in Revelation has always understood even in the church fathers refers back to Genesis 3:1. He could have simply used a disguise.
 

TheLearner

Well-known member
Jan 14, 2019
1,610
360
83
#92
Aside: gen 3:15

Romans 16:20 J.B. Phillips New Testament (PHILLIPS)
19-20 Your loyalty to the principles of the Gospel is known everywhere, and that gives me great joy. I want to see you experts in good, and not even beginners in evil. It will not be long before the God of peace will crush Satan under your feet. May the grace of our Lord Jesus Christ be with you.

Genesis 3:15
And I will put enmity between you and the woman, and between your offspring and hers; he will crush your head, and you will strike his heel."

I wonder how these two verses will play out with Christadelphians and Jehovah's Witnesses?
https://christianchat.com/bible-dis...ristadelphians-and-jehovahs-witnesses.189465/
 

Adstar

Senior Member
Jul 24, 2016
6,457
2,930
113
#93
off the top of my head,

1 John 3:8 ESV
Whoever makes a practice of sinning is of the devil, for the devil has been sinning from the beginning. The reason the Son of God appeared was to destroy the works of the devil.

John 8:44 ESV
You are of your father the devil, and your will is to do your father's desires. He was a murderer from the beginning, and has nothing to do with the truth, because there is no truth in him. When he lies, he speaks out of his own character, for he is a liar and the father of lies.

Revelation 12:9 ESV
And the great dragon was thrown down, that ancient serpent, who is called the devil and Satan, the deceiver of the whole world—he was thrown down to the earth, and his angels were thrown down with him.

2 Corinthians 11:3 ESV
But I am afraid that as the serpent deceived Eve by his cunning, your thoughts will be led astray from a sincere and pure devotion to Christ.

Job 1:7 ESV
The Lord said to Satan, “From where have you come?” Satan answered the Lord and said, “From going to and fro on the earth, and from walking up and down on it.” Note: Satan can simply mean adversary.

Revelation 20:2 ESV
And he seized the dragon, that ancient serpent, who is the devil and Satan, and bound him for a thousand years,

Genesis 3:1 ESV
Now the serpent was more crafty than any other beast of the field that the Lord God had made. He said to the woman, “Did God actually say, ‘You shall not eat of any tree in the garden’?”

Note: I was there, so we can argue from silence that the serpent was not literal or that it was. But, the quotes in Revelation has always understood even in the church fathers refers back to Genesis 3:1. He could have simply used a disguise.
Again a wall of scripture most of it unrelated to the point i made.. My point was about the timing of satan being cast out of heaven.. Not about if satan was the serpent in the garden.. Again none of the scriptures you quote give the timing of when satan was cast out of heaven and your note at the end had nothing to do about when satan was cast out of heaven..

Seems to me you are so intent on preaching that you did not even read the post of mine that you quoted.. Or are you dodging?
 

TheLearner

Well-known member
Jan 14, 2019
1,610
360
83
#94
Again a wall of scripture most of it unrelated to the point i made.. My point was about the timing of satan being cast out of heaven.. Not about if satan was the serpent in the garden.. Again none of the scriptures you quote give the timing of when satan was cast out of heaven and your note at the end had nothing to do about when satan was cast out of heaven..

Seems to me you are so intent on preaching that you did not even read the post of mine that you quoted.. Or are you dodging?
I read it, was there a question I missed?
 

TheLearner

Well-known member
Jan 14, 2019
1,610
360
83
#95
Again a wall of scripture most of it unrelated to the point i made.. My point was about the timing of satan being cast out of heaven.. Not about if satan was the serpent in the garden.. Again none of the scriptures you quote give the timing of when satan was cast out of heaven and your note at the end had nothing to do about when satan was cast out of heaven..

Seems to me you are so intent on preaching that you did not even read the post of mine that you quoted.. Or are you dodging?

You must have missed, Note: I was there, so we can argue from silence that the serpent was not literal or that it was. But, the quotes in Revelation has always understood even in the church fathers refers back to Genesis 3:1. He could have simply used a disguise.

Those texts connect Satan with the serpent at the Fall.
 

TheLearner

Well-known member
Jan 14, 2019
1,610
360
83
#96
Deuteronomy 32:17
They offered sacrifices to demons—gods that are not God. These were new gods they had not known before, gods their ancestors never knew.

Demons existed before Isaiah, thus Satan had to fall well before Isaiah was born.

Isaiah 14 in early christian writings were used as an analogy.
 

TheLearner

Well-known member
Jan 14, 2019
1,610
360
83
#97
Rev texts equates that snake at the Fall as being Satan. God put it under a curse.
 
Jun 10, 2019
4,304
1,652
113
#98
arg cattle being lead to the slaughterhouse

Mark 1
12At once the Spirit drove Jesus into the wilderness, 13and He was there for forty days, being tempted by Satan. He was with the wild animals, and the angels ministered to Him.
 

TheLearner

Well-known member
Jan 14, 2019
1,610
360
83
#99
Wisdom 2:24 but through the devil’s envy death entered the world, and those who belong to his company experience it.

John 8:44 Easy-to-Read Version (ERV)
44 Your father is the devil. You belong to him. You want to do what he wants. He was a murderer from the beginning. He was always against the truth. There is no truth in him. He is like the lies he tells. Yes, the devil is a liar. He is the father of lies

1 John 3:8 Easy-to-Read Version (ERV)
8 The devil has been sinning since the beginning. Anyone who continues to sin belongs to the devil. The Son of God came for this: to destroy the devil’s work.

"The evolution of the theory of Satan keeps pace with the development of Jewish angelology and demonology. In Wisdom ii. 24 he is represented, with reference to Gen. iii., as the author of all evil, who brought death into the world; he is apparently mentioned also in Ecclus. (Sirach) xxi. 27, and the fact that his name does not occur in Daniel is doubtless due merely to chance. Satan was the seducer and the paramour of Eve, and was hurled from heaven together with other angels because of his iniquity (Slavonic Book of Enoch, xxix. 4 et seq.). Since that time he has been called "Satan," although previously he had been termed "Satanel" (ib. xxxi. 3 et seq.). The doctrine of the fall of Satan, as well as of the fall of the angels, is found also in Babylonia (Schrader, l.c. p. 464), and is mentioned several times in the New Testament. Satan rules over an entire host of angels (Martyrdom of Isaiah, ii. 2; Vita Adæ et Evæ, xvi.). Mastema, who induced God to test Abraham through the sacrifice of Isaac, is identical with Satan in both name and nature (Book of Jubilees, xvii. 18), and the Asmodeus of the Book of Tobit is likewise to be identified with him, especially in view of his licentiousness. As the lord of satans he not infrequently bears the special name Samael. It is difficult to identify Satan in any other passages of the Apocrypha, since the originals in which his name occurred have been lost, and the translations employ various equivalents. An "argumentum a silentio" can not, therefore, be adduced as proof that concepts of Satan were not wide-spread; but it must rather be assumed that reference to him and his realm is implied in the mention of evil spirits of every sort (comp. Demonology, and Kautzsch, "Apokryphen," Index) " http://www.jewishencyclopedia.com/articles/13219-satan
 

TheLearner

Well-known member
Jan 14, 2019
1,610
360
83
[D]uring all those years, Belial will be sent amidst Israel, as God
spoke through the hand of the prophet Isaiah, son of Amoz, saying, “Fear and a pit and a snare are upon you, O inhabitant(s) of
the land.” This refers to the three nets of Belial, of which Levi,
the son of Jacob, said that he (Belial) entrapped Israel with them,
making them seem as if they were three types of righteousness.
The first is unchastity, the second arrogance, and the third defilement of the sanctuary. He who escapes from this is caught
by that and he who is saved from that is caught by this (CD
4:12–19).16
According to this passage, which is an interpretation of Isaiah 24:17, Belial has been sent, presumably by God, amidst Israel. (Belial is the preferred
name for the Satan figure in several of the Dead Sea Scrolls.17)
...
“Prince of Lights” and the “Angel of Darkness,” two
superhuman figures who rule over humankind.
In the hand of the Prince of Lights (is) the dominion of all the
Sons of Righteousness; in the ways of light they walk. But in the
hand of the Angel of Darkness (is) the dominion of the Sons of
Deceit; and in the ways of darkness they walk (1QS 3:20–21a).
Elsewhere, however, the Treatise speaks of the two spirits struggling within
the heart of a person, imagery which lends itself to a psychological understanding of the spirits.
Until now the spirits of truth and deceit struggle in the heart of
humans, and (so) they walk in wisdom or vileness. According to
a man’s share in truth shall he be righteous and thus hate deceit,
and according to his inheritance in the lot of deceit he shall be
evil through it, and thus loathe truth (1QS 4:23–25).
Whatever the precise meaning of “spirits” in this text, the Treatise clearly
teaches that there is a superhuman dimension to the conflict between good
and evil and that this conflict is played out to some degree within the human heart. More importantly for the present discussion, the Treatise states
unequivocally that God created the spirit of deceit.

https://swbts.edu/sites/default/fil.../53.1 The Origin of Sin in the DSS Stokes.pdf