Why the Adversary HATES the Pre-Tribulation Resurrection-Rapture

[Nehemiah6]

The problem here is that Jesus said in the end many will turn away from Him. I imagine that many pre-tribbers, should they suddenly find themselves in the thick of it, will ask themselves "what else was I wrong about" and go apostate.

This is just more nonsensical talk, unless you can provide a better alternative from Scripture. So kindly interpret each and every one of the passages cited to show that they mean something else.

 

[Ahwatukee]

It made enough difference to the troubled Thessalonian Christians that Paul had to clarify the matter properly. And it made all the difference to the troubled apostles who were dreading the departure of Christ when He gave them much assurance in John 14.

And if prophetic truth was not important for God and Christ, 2/3rds or more the Bible would not be prophetic. So it makes all the difference to either know the truth, believe it, share it, and teach it, or to believe the lies of Satan and be deluded.

I was also going to respond to JGIG regarding the fact that, it does matter in that, Paul wrote regarding those who were teaching that the resurrection had already taken place, namely, Hymenaeus and Philetus, of whom Paul said was godless chatter, would spread like gangrene, and because of this teaching they had departed from the truth and were destroying the faith of some.

Obviously, false teaching regarding the event of the resurrection was detrimental to ones salvation, just as is today. Anyone who is claiming the same, i.e. that that resurrection has already taken place (you preterist know who you are) have departed from the truth.

It is the same with those who cling to the works of the law as a requirement for salvation, adding to what Christ already accomplished.

Peter recognized Paul's writings as wisdom from God and as scripture and for those who were distorting his writings as being ignorant and unstable and doing so to their destruction. We have people today saying the same thing about Paul's writings and who fall under the same condemnation as those that Peter wrote of.

So yes, the whole word of God matters. Prophecy matters, as God made clear at the end of the book of Revelation, stating that "If anyone adds anything to them, God will add to that person the plagues described in this scroll. And if anyone takes words away from this scroll of prophecy, God will take away from that person any share in the tree of life and in the Holy City, which are described in this scroll."

So yeah, it is important, because it's important to God. It is also written "Do not treat prophecies with contempt."

 

[Ahwatukee]

The problem here is that Jesus said in the end many will turn away from Him. I imagine that many pre-tribbers, should they suddenly find themselves in the thick of it, will ask themselves "what else was I wrong about" and go apostate.

That is a common false belief that has been circulating for some time. If anyone would know what time we were in, it would be those of us who study end-time events. For example, since I know how the antichrist is going to be revealed and what identifies him, I wouldn't be running around with my hands flailing in the air and abandon my faith. Not at all! I would immediately go to God and pray that He would give me strength to go through what I knew was coming, namely, the beasts kingdom and God's wrath.

But you see, that's the point we've been trying to get you to understand, that believers are not appointed to suffer God's wrath. I will go even further and say that it is impossible for true believers to be exposed to God's coming wrath. For if the church was exposed to God coming wrath, then Jesus suffered God's wrath for nothing, because the wrath that took upon himself would have been in vain if we were still here to go through it. Those who believe that the church is going to go through God's wrath do not understand the underlying principle of what Christ did and they don't truly believe in the promises to keep us out of His time of wrath.

Jesus said, "I will build my church and the gates of Hades shall not prevail against it." If you have the church going through the time of the beasts kingdom, then the gates of Hades would surely have prevailed against us.

The question is, why do you believe that God is going to take His church through His wrath, opposed to removing us from the earth according to His promises? I have said it before and will continue to say it, for those who believe that God is going to protect His church in the midst of His wrath, you have no idea of the severity and the magnitude of what is going to come upon this earth via the seals, trumpets and bowl judgments.

Also, regarding your statement "imagine that many pre-tribbers, should they suddenly find themselves in the thick of it." This would suggest that our faith is based on the Lord gathering the church prior to His wrath, which is false. My faith is in Christ who provided salvation on my behalf, completely and fully and not by anything that I could do. If I found that I had entered the time of the beast and God's wrath, I would have the same faith that I do now and be prepared to be persecuted and to die keeping the testimony of Jesus and the word of God, even to death, which should be the spirit of every believer all the time.

But there again, we are not appointed to suffer God's wrath, because Jesus already did.

 

[Noose]

In addition to support the proof that the resurrection/rapture takes place as a group event, opposed to taking place each time a believer dies, please see the following:

For the grace of God has appeared, bringing salvation to all men. It instructs us to renounce ungodliness and worldly passions, and to live sensible, upright, and godly lives in the present age, as we await the blessed hope and glorious appearance of our great God and Savior, Jesus Christ.

As we wait i.e. all believers waiting for the bless hope, which is the appearing of our Lord to gather us.

We also have the following scripture regarding the same event:

"Listen, I tell you a mystery: We will not all sleep, but we will all be changed—in an instant, in the twinkling of an eye, at the last trumpet. For the trumpet will sound, the dead will be raised imperishable, and we will be changed. "

The scripture above is synonymous with I Thes.4:13-17. Obviously, the gathering/rapture cannot take place for each believer at the time of each persons death and that because the scripture says that it will take place at the "last trumpet," which again, would infer a one-time group event.

I'm just giving you advice to stick with scripture. Because this other stuff that you are claiming is not scriptural for one and it has the flavor of new age teachings, myths.

And who are these people and how did they get to heaven if they did not resurrect?

Rev 6:9 When he opened the fifth seal, I saw under the altar the souls of those who had been slain because of the word of God and the testimony they had maintained. 10 They called out in a loud voice, “How long, Sovereign Lord, holy and true, until you judge the inhabitants of the earth and avenge our blood?” 11Then each of them was given a white robe, and they were told to wait a little longer, until the full number of their fellow servants, their brothers and sisters,e were killed just as they had been.

Rev 8:3 Another angel, who had a golden censer, came and stood at the altar. He was given much incense to offer, with the prayers of all God’s people, on the golden altar in front of the throne. 4The smoke of the incense, together with the prayers of God’s people, went up before God from the angel’s hand. 5Then the angel took the censer, filled it with fire from the altar, and hurled it on the earth; and there came peals of thunder, rumblings, flashes of lightning and an earthquake.

Rev 11:11 But after the three and a half days the breathb of life from God entered them, and they stood on their feet, and terror struck those who saw them. 12Then they heard a loud voice from heaven saying to them, “Come up here.” And they went up to heaven in a cloud, while their enemies looked on.

Rev 20:4 I saw thrones on which were seated those who had been given authority to judge. And I saw the souls of those who had been beheaded because of their testimony about Jesus and because of the word of God. Theya had not worshiped the beast or its image and had not received its mark on their foreheads or their hands. They came to life and reigned with Christ a thousand years. 5(The rest of the dead did not come to life until the thousand years were ended.) This is the first resurrection. 6 Blessed and holy are those who share in the first resurrection. The second death has no power over them, but they will be priests of God and of Christ and will reign with him for a thousand years.

The fact is, when a saint dies, their soul is resurrected.

 

[NayborBear]

Whenever I see a thread like this, I have to ask, "What difference does it make?"

God has the 'Final Things' well in hand and planned out, regardless of how we've interpreted what we think will happen.

What we believe or do not believe about how the Final Things will play out will not affect them in any way.

How we live today, however, how we love well those in our spheres of influence, will have eternal impact.

I find that my views on the Final Things changes over time the more I mature in Christ and become more and more familiar with the Scriptures. And my views don't matter! God will do what He will do! My job is to share the Good News of

• Who Christ is
• What He came to do
• What He actually accomplished, and
• Who we who believe in Christ are in Him.

And doing that when doors open in the course of loving those around me.

I have a hunch that when the Final Things all play out, we will all be looking around and realizing that God's reality is so superior to our interpretations!

Folks, please keep in mind that believing in and receiving the forgiveness, righteousness, and new life in Christ is what saves you, not in having the 'correct' view of the Final Things.


-JGIG

Ahhhh!....But, it "does" make a difference! To those souls who are begging and crying for the mountains to fall on them, in that Great and Terrible "Day of the Lord?" Great in its Love, and Terrible in its Revealings? Seeking for places to hide, and finding none? Yes! It DOES make a difference!

To Everyone, it makes a difference! For we have "all" sinned, and come "short" of the Glory of God! And, in "that" day? We "all" shall be shown our "short comings!" I think we'll "all" be looking for places to hide! Some more, others less. But, more so, those who have been deceived into the "illusion" that "Love that covers a multitude of sin/s", will be "shown", which sin/s (that) "Love" DIDN'T cover! And, even how "short" we have even fallen from being "Christ-like", in our striving/s to be the "Good Shepherd", within our "own" selves! I'm not even exempt from this myself. Cuz, I have "experienced" the "Great and Terrible" Day of the Lord. A "quivering BLOB" of protplasm! Different from being "Convicted!" Cuz, I've been "convicted" as well! More then several times.

So....YES, Indeed!.....It MAKES a difference!

 

[tanakh]

You are incorrect Lucy! We have posted on just about every Biblical subject. And we don't trim anything to fit what we are teaching, but come to our conclusions from cross-referencing and comparing scripture. If it was as you say, then I wouldn't even both. What would be the point if we were just trying to protect our own belief? We are contending for the truth and accuracy of God's word, period!

The reason why we have people denying the Lord's promise to gather His church prior to His wrath, why we have legalists, preterism, Amillennialism, annihilationist, soul-sleep, replacement theology, etc., etc., is because we are in the last days and the following is happening:

"For the time will come when men will not tolerate sound doctrine, but with itching ears they will gather around themselves teachers to suit their own desires. So they will turn their ears away from the truth and turn aside to myths."

To put it into perspective for today, those teachers are YouTube, web-sites, false teachers, books written by men, seminars and hearsay. And all their adherents do is repeat the same false apologetics, while ignoring the truth of scripture. Satan is attacking every Biblical truth in these last days and he has a large following to spread those lies among believers.

The pre-tribulation, pre-seven years, pre-first seal, gathering of the church is set in stone, because those who believe in Christ have been credited with righteousness and reconciled to God and that because Jesus took upon Himself the wrath that every believer deserves. Therefore, the wrath of God no longer rests upon those in Christ. Because of this and the scriptures that proclaim it, believers are not appointed to suffer God's coming wrath on this earth via the seals, trumpets and bowl judgments, nor the wrath at the great white throne judgment.

Paul, in writing to Titus called the gathering of the church, "the blessed hope." After giving a detailed account of this event to the Thessalonians, he said to them and us, "Therefore comfort one another with these words." That said, if the Lord was to put His church through the time of His wrath and gather us after it was completed, there would be no blessed hope, nor could believers comfort one another with those words, because we would be exposed to all of God's wrath. Also if this were true, God would be punishing the righteous with the wicked, which He doesn't do. And anyone who thinks that God is going to protect His church in the midst of His wrath, hasn't understood the severity and magnitude of the seals, trumpets and bowl judgments.

So in these last days anyone who is opposed to the Pre Trib rapture belief is being deceived by the Devil and has itching ears.
Tell me then how it is that prior to around 1830 hardly anyone had heard of a pre trib rapture if at all or any of the rest of the dispensational baggage that goes with it. How is it that some of the greatest preachers and theologians never mention it prior to that date and some that were alive when it was first put forward opposed it. People like Spurgeon and Tregelles. I assume you include them as those being deceived and had itching ears as well.

Speaking of deception go to any Christian Book Shop and take a look at the Prophecy section. You will find that almost every book
is about Pre Trib themes and the latest sensational news event that ''proves'' that this version of prophecy is true. The authors feed on each other and deceive their readers. One is lucky to find one book that discusses an alternative view. The same can be said for
TV Channels videos and the internet in general. The Devil has mass brainwashing down to fine art

Finally you keep repeating Pauls statement about the Blessed hope. That is the second coming of Christ which every Christian
including myself look forward to. As I said a number of times believers are sealed with the Holy Spirit. Just as God protected Noah and his family against the wrath of God during the flood he is quite capable of protecting believers against wrath in the tribulation.
Also what makes your position illogical is that God manages to protect Israel during all this wrath without removing them from the
earth and yet appears not able to do the same for the Church according to your interpretation of events.

 

[RickyZ]

This is just more nonsensical talk, unless you can provide a better alternative from Scripture. So kindly interpret each and every one of the passages cited to show that they mean something else.

If I put up scripture that has been presented to you dozens of times already, are you going to actually consider them or use them for target practice?

That's what I thought.

 

[RickyZ]

So in these last days anyone who is opposed to the Pre Trib rapture belief is being deceived by the Devil and has itching ears.
Tell me then how it is that prior to around 1830 hardly anyone had heard of a pre trib rapture if at all or any of the rest of the dispensational baggage that goes with it. How is it that some of the greatest preachers and theologians never mention it prior to that date and some that were alive when it was first put forward opposed it. People like Spurgeon and Tregelles. I assume you include them as those being deceived and had itching ears as well.

Speaking of deception go to any Christian Book Shop and take a look at the Prophecy section. You will find that almost every book
is about Pre Trib themes and the latest sensational news event that ''proves'' that this version of prophecy is true. The authors feed on each other and deceive their readers. One is lucky to find one book that discusses an alternative view. The same can be said for
TV Channels videos and the internet in general. The Devil has mass brainwashing down to fine art

Finally you keep repeating Pauls statement about the Blessed hope. That is the second coming of Christ which every Christian
including myself look forward to. As I said a number of times believers are sealed with the Holy Spirit. Just as God protected Noah and his family against the wrath of God during the flood he is quite capable of protecting believers against wrath in the tribulation.
Also what makes your position illogical is that God manages to protect Israel during all this wrath without removing them from the
earth and yet appears not able to do the same for the Church according to your interpretation of events.

Actually, from the day I believed until about 20 years ago all I was taught was pre-trib. I didn't even know there was any question about it. When I did finally hear there might be an alternative, I studied it and found scripture to show a mid-trib/pre wrath gathering. But other saints studying the same material come to different conclusions. Since nobody knows for sure, my motto is: Pray for pre, prepare for post, and remember that for any one of us it may even be today.

 

[abcdef]

The tribulation period is a description of the flesh broken off branches after 70 ad until 1967.

The symbolism shows that the natural broken branches suffer from God's withdrawing of blessings.

This is shown in the 7 seals, 37 ad until 70 ad.

and the 7 trumpets, 96 ad until the second coming for salvation at the 7th/last trumpet. (About to sound, after Jerusalem falls.)

---------

Pre-trib and preterism completely skip the period from 70 ad until present day.

This time period is described as the "times of the gentiles" (ToG's) Lk 21:20-24, 24.

People have been taught different theories about this time period, but it can now be understood due the the fact that Israel is restored to Jerusalem.

-------

One reason that this has happened is to hide the identity of the Antichrist.

It should be OBVIOUS to everyone that the Antichrist is the leader who rules the iron legs/toes nation of Daniel 2.

See how the iron nation continues without a gap in the time line. Pre-trib must ignore this fact, or else admit that the Antichrist is Caesar/BoR. The iron nation has power over the people of Israel until they are restored to Jerusalem. When the iron toes/horns end, Israel will be restored to Jerusalem 1967.

The ONLY person(s) who can fit the requirements of the Antichrist time line is Caesar and the Bishop of Rome (BoR).

He has been here all the time. Pretending to be the "holy father".

Attacking the cut off natural branches of Israel and the true kingdom/church.

Claiming to be the only true kingdom/church. Claiming to be the replacement of the natural branches, teaching that they are cut off forever. But Paul said that the gifts and calling are without repentance Ro 11:29.

 

[Nehemiah6]

If I put up scripture that has been presented to you dozens of times already, are you going to actually consider them or use them for target practice?

I was asking for you to take every one of those Scriptures I have presented and show us what connection they have to a world-wide Tribulation.

 

[Ahwatukee]

This is just more nonsensical talk, unless you can provide a better alternative from Scripture. So kindly interpret each and every one of the passages cited to show that they mean something else.

We've heard this theoretic nonsense before, Nehamiah6.

So in these last days anyone who is opposed to the Pre Trib rapture belief is being deceived by the Devil and has itching ears.

Tell me then how it is that prior to around 1830 hardly anyone had heard of a pre trib rapture if at all or any of the rest of the dispensational baggage that goes with it. How is it that some of the greatest preachers and theologians never mention it prior to that date and some that were alive when it was first put forward opposed it. People like Spurgeon and Tregelles. I assume you include them as those being deceived and had itching ears as well.

Who said that no one knew about it, when it is and has been right in the word of God from the beginning? The fact is that Paul, who was well before 1830, knew about it, as well as the first century church. And we know that they did, because there were false teachers proclaiming that the day of the Lord had already taken place, which prompted the Thessalonians to write Paul and ask him about, because they were concerned that they had missed the gathering of the church. So, this was a well known truth during Paul's time.

Speaking of deception go to any Christian Book Shop and take a look at the Prophecy section. You will find that almost every book is about Pre Trib themes and the latest sensational news event that ''proves'' that this version of prophecy is true. The authors feed on each other and deceive their readers. One is lucky to find one book that discusses an alternative view. The same can be said for TV Channels videos and the internet in general. The Devil has mass brainwashing down to fine art

tanakh, I don't care about the writings of men or their sensationalism. I'm only concerned with what scripture teaches.

Finally you keep repeating Paul's statement about the Blessed hope. That is the second coming of Christ which every Christian including myself look forward to.

If by second coming you are referring to when Jesus physically and visually returns to the earth to end the age, then you incorrect. The blessed hope is when Christ appears to remove His church prior to His wrath. As we have told you so many times, if you have the church being gathered at the same time when Jesus returns to the earth to end the age, then you would be putting the church through the entire wrath of God, which again, we are not appointed to suffer. This has always been your error in that, you don't understand that the gathering of the church vs. the Lord's returning to end the age, as being two separate events. As long as you continue to make them the same event, your eschatology will always be in error.

As I said a number of times believers are sealed with the Holy Spirit. Just as God protected Noah and his family against the wrath of God during the flood he is quite capable of protecting believers against wrath in the tribulation.

And as I keep telling you, if you believe that the Lord is going to put His church through His wrath and protect us in the midst of it, you have understanding of the severity and magnitude of God's coming wrath. If you would take the time to do an in depth study of the seals, trumpets and bowl judgments, you would see that we cannot be here during that time. Not only that, but your also not believing in the word of God which states that we are not appointed to suffer His wrath, that Jesus rescues us from the coming wrath and that He said that he would keep us out of that time of wrath. And before you say it, believers are not appointed to suffer any wrath at all, whether the wrath that is coming upon this earth nor the wrath at the great white throne judgment. You just have no idea of what is coming!

Also what makes your position illogical is that God manages to protect Israel during all this wrath without removing them from the earth and yet appears not able to do the same for the Church according to your interpretation of events.

Good point! Do you see the church mentioned anywhere from chapter 6 thru 18, which is the narrative of God's wrath? No, you don't. And the reason for that is because the church is not on the earth during that time. It is true that God will be protecting the remnant of Israel during that last 3 1/2 years, but there is no mention of the church during that time, nor of God protecting the church during that time. In fact, during that time, the beast will be given power over the great tribulation saints to make war against them and to conquer them during that last 3 1/2 years, as revealed in Rev.13:7-8

"Then the beast was permitted to wage war against the saints and conquer them, and it was given authority over every tribe and people and tongue and nation. And all who dwell on the earth will worship the beast—all whose names have not been written from the foundation of the world in the book of life of the Lamb who was slain."

Who are those people mentioned in the scripture above tanakh? If that is the church, then as you can see they are not being protected by God. Those above are the great tribulation saints, which is not the church. This is the same group that John sees who will have been beheaded because of their testimony for Jesus and the word of God and who will not have worshiped the beast, his image or received his mark.

Regarding the church not going through God's wrath, read the following carefully and understand what is being said and apply it:

"Therefore, since we have now been justified by His blood, how much more shall we be saved from wrath through Him!"

"They tell how you turned to God from idols to serve the living and true God, and to wait for his Son from heaven, whom he raised from the dead—Jesus, who rescues us from the coming wrath."

"But since we belong to the day, let us be sober, putting on faith and love as a breastplate, and the hope of salvation as a helmet. For God did not appoint us to suffer wrath but to receive salvation through our Lord Jesus Christ."

"Since you have kept my command to endure patiently, I will also keep you from the hour of trial that is going to come on the whole world to test the inhabitants of the earth."

Just as Jesus paid the penalty for the sins of all believer and met the righteous requirements for all believers, He also experienced God's wrath on behalf of all believers. Believers have been credited with righteousness and have been reconciled to God through faith in Christ. To say that the Lord is going to send His church through His wrath, is to not believe any of the above.

 

[RickyZ]

They don't. That's the beauty of cherry picking. One can make scripture say whatever they want it to that way.

Rev 1: 7“Look, he is coming with the clouds,” and “every eye will see him, even those who pierced him”; and all peoples on earth “will mourn because of him.”

Rev 5:1Then I saw in the right hand of him who sat on the throne a scroll with writing on both sides and sealed with seven seals. 2And I saw a mighty angel proclaiming in a loud voice, “Who is worthy to break the seals and open the scroll?” 3But no one in heaven or on earth or under the earth could open the scroll or even look inside it. 4I wept and wept because no one was found who was worthy to open the scroll or look inside

Rev 6:Its rider was given power to take peace from the earth

Rev 6:10 How long, Sovereign Lord, holy and true, until you judge the inhabitants of the earth and avenge our blood?”

Rev 6:15Then the kings of the earth, the princes, the generals, the rich, the mighty, and everyone else, both slave and free, hid in caves and among the rocks of the mountains.

Rev 7:After this I saw four angels standing at the four corners of the earth, holding back the four winds of the earth to prevent any wind from blowing on the land or on the sea or on any tree.

Rev 7: 9After this I looked, and there before me was a great multitude that no one could count, from every nation, tribe, people and language,

Need I go on? Do these not indicate these are world-wide events?

Of course, there is debate on whether these apply to the Jews of 70 ad or those who are alive at the end.

I think it applies to both.

 

[tanakh]

Actually, from the day I believed until about 20 years ago all I was taught was pre-trib. I didn't even know there was any question about it. When I did finally hear there might be an alternative, I studied it and found scripture to show a mid-trib/pre wrath gathering. But other saints studying the same material come to different conclusions. Since nobody knows for sure, my motto is: Pray for pre, prepare for post, and remember that for any one of us it may even be today.

I came to Christ in the early seventies at the time of the Jesus movement and Hal Lindsey's Late Great Planet Earth like yourself I
had no idea of any alternative way of viewing things until much later in my Christian experience. Your motto is a wise one. The main beef I have with Pre Tribbers is that they believe that they alone not only have all the correct answers but infer that everyone who disagrees with them is not christian. No matter how many times they deny it they really believe that salvation depends on their interpretation of scripture and not through faith in Christ

 

[shrume]

[Pre tribbers] infer that everyone who disagrees with them is not christian. No matter how many times they deny it they really believe that salvation depends on their interpretation of scripture and not through faith in Christ

Careful what you say in your disdain for the pretrib rapture. That (^^^) is absolutely not true.

 

[Johnny_B]

PART I
Bible-believing Christians are well aware that there is intense hatred for the Bible doctrine of the Pre-Tribulation Rapture. There are probably hundreds of articles and sermons (from those who claim to be Christians) attacking this truth, even though it is clearly revealed in the Bible.

Can you post the Scriptures showing that believe in this teaching makes a person saved? Here's a Scripture showing that by what you are saying that you need to examine yourself to see if you are in the faith or that you are one of Christ disciples.

John 13:34-35 “A new commandment I give to you, that you love one another: just as I have loved you, you also are to love one another.35 By this all people will know that you are my disciples, if you have love for one another.”

By your attitude toward those that do not believe a none salvation doctrine as you do, shows you are not one of Christ's disciple. You really need to check yourself before you wreck yourself.

 

[Johnny_B]

I came to Christ in the early seventies at the time of the Jesus movement and Hal Lindsey's Late Great Planet Earth like yourself I
had no idea of any alternative way of viewing things until much later in my Christian experience. Your motto is a wise one. The main beef I have with Pre Tribbers is that they believe that they alone not only have all the correct answers but infer that everyone who disagrees with them is not christian. No matter how many times they deny it they really believe that salvation depends on their interpretation of scripture and not through faith in Christ

Amen my Brother, that book of Hal's was fictional but sold as fact. That only showed how you do not interpret Scripture with a modern western backdrop, they were written from a near eastern mind set. Al the examples Jesus uses about salvation and His return all have to do with the wedding feast, the Father chooses the bride and He tells the Son when He can go get His bride.

 

[RickyZ]

I came to Christ in the early seventies at the time of the Jesus movement and Hal Lindsey's Late Great Planet Earth like yourself I
had no idea of any alternative way of viewing things until much later in my Christian experience. Your motto is a wise one. The main beef I have with Pre Tribbers is that they believe that they alone not only have all the correct answers but infer that everyone who disagrees with them is not christian. No matter how many times they deny it they really believe that salvation depends on their interpretation of scripture and not through faith in Christ

That my friend applies to most of the issues debated here. Truth is only available to those who are willing to question what they think they know - and yet everyone seems to think they know beyond question.

Funniest part is when we get there we'll find out we were ALL wrong

 

[RickyZ]

1. The Rapture is always imminent in Scripture

I'm with you on this one. The rich farmer who was proud of what he'd stored up for his future - his rapture came that very night (Luke 12). It is more imminent than most people think.



2. The Tribulation is for unbelieving Jews, not for the redeemed Church


I'm half with you here. God offered the Messiah to the Jews - they rejected Him, and had their tribulation in 70 ad. BUT - then God offered the Christ to the world. The world is now rejecting Him, and will suffer it's tribulation to come.


3. The righteous were always delivered from God’s wrath BEFORE it came upon the ungodly and the wicked.


Yes, God will not let us see His wrath. BUT (again ), He never spares His people from judgement. The question is, which of Revelation's events constitute judgments and which constitute wrath?

I believe the seals and trumpet events are judgments, and we will see those pre-trib events. The events poured out from the bowls, there's no question those are wrath, which then occur post-trib.

BUT!

I could be wrong. That's why I say pray for pre, prepare for post, and be ready even tonight.

 

[Noose]

Rev 12
1A great sign appeared in heaven: a woman clothed with the sun, with the moon under her feet and a crown of twelve stars on her head. 2She was pregnant and cried out in pain as she was about to give birth.3Then another sign appeared in heaven: an enormous red dragon with seven heads and ten horns and seven crowns on its heads. 4Its tail swept a third of the stars out of the sky and flung them to the earth. The dragon stood in front of the woman who was about to give birth, so that it might devour her child the moment he was born. 5She gave birth to a son, a male child, who “will rule all the nations with an iron scepter.”a And her child was snatched up to God and to his throne. 6The woman fled into the wilderness to a place prepared for her by God, where she might be taken care of for 1,260 days.
7Then war broke out in heaven. Michael and his angels fought against the dragon, and the dragon and his angels fought back. 8But he was not strong enough, and they lost their place in heaven. 9The great dragon was hurled down—that ancient serpent called the devil, or Satan, who leads the whole world astray. He was hurled to the earth, and his angels with him......

13When the dragon saw that he had been hurled to the earth, he pursued the woman who had given birth to the male child. 14The woman was given the two wings of a great eagle, so that she might fly to the place prepared for her in the wilderness, where she would be taken care of for a time, times and half a time, out of the serpent’s reach. 15Then from his mouth the serpent spewed water like a river, to overtake the woman and sweep her away with the torrent. 16But the earth helped the woman by opening its mouth and swallowing the river that the dragon had spewed out of his mouth. 17Then the dragon was enraged at the woman and went off to wage war against the rest of her offspring—those who keep God’s commands and hold fast their testimony about Jesus.

like i've always said, there are two groups that form the church and they will all be here on earth during tribulation. One group (church of Philadelphia) will be protected here on earth and will not die through tribulations. The other group (Church of Smyrna) must die because of their testimony about Jesus.
The woman is given great wings to fly not to heaven but away from the tribulations- means God will protect her while she's on earth.

And there's no Pre, mid or post trib anything.

 

[NayborBear]

Nehemiah6 said:


1. The Rapture is always imminent in Scripture

"I'm with you on this one. The rich farmer who was proud of what he'd stored up for his future - "his rapture" came that very night (Luke 12). It is more imminent than most people think."

Unfortunately, you are more correct concerning this "tradition of man" teaching about "death", which is generally understood, alluded to, or insinuated, when it comes to this "doctrine" about rapture. Though, is rarely, if at all, specifically spoken out loud, then you may think!

Can you not "see" how this is a doctrine used by enemies of God's people, and Jesus Christ? Can you not "see", how this "Your soul might belong to God?" But, yer arses, belong to me!" Mindset, keeps perpetuating, and rendering even more void, the Word of God?

Allow me, if you will, in offering an interpretation of Paul, as Paul himself seen. Being, not just an Apostle unto the gentiles, which he was, and not just bringing the Good News, concerning our Father's loving kindness, which endures FOREVER, In Jesus Christ Our Lord and Savior, which is always true, and correct. But, also, as a Priest after the order of Melchizedek! Which is a FOREVER Priesthood! Both forwards, in this thing we call "time" on earth, but, also backwards through the history of the nation of Israel, as shown in the written recordings. Yet, with an understanding, and wisdom, granted by God the Father, to "His" Priests! May His NAME be PRAISED, from Everlasting, to Everlasting! Amen!

That being said, and in no wise, attempting to make in describing a thing, to a lessor degree then it is? When, it comes to (how can I say), the describing, or telling of that which had come to pass, and that which is (yet) to come? The "passing" of "time as we understand it", can, and oft times does not get placed in its proper context, in the written records. As, "it" (the Word of God) does not, nor have the compunction of being restrcited to, nor confined to grammatics!

Romans 1.....
18 For the wrath of God is revealed from heaven against all ungodliness and unrighteousness of men, who hold the truth in unrighteousness;


19 Because that which may be known of God is manifest in them; for God hath shewed it unto them.


20 For the invisible things of him from the creation of the world are clearly seen, being understood by the things that are made, even his eternal power and Godhead; so that they are without excuse:


21 Because that, when they knew God, they glorified him not as God, neither were thankful; but became vain in their imaginations, and their foolish heart was darkened.


22 Professing themselves to be wise, they became fools,


23 And changed the glory of the uncorruptible God into an image made like to corruptible man, and to birds, and fourfooted beasts, and creeping things.


24 Wherefore God also gave them up to uncleanness through the lusts of their own hearts, to dishonour their own bodies between themselves:


25 Who changed the truth of God into a lie, and worshipped and served the creature more than the Creator, who is blessed for ever. Amen.

Here? Paul is describing the "Garden of Eden Incident."
And without so much of any "passage of time as we know it", in the "widening the void?" As one cannot, least in this language (english) correctly indicate, a "sigh", a "pausing for a breath", a "change of tone", nor, subtle emotional outpourings of spoken word! Save the term: "Amen" (not, a term meaning "agreement with", as much, as it is a term meaning "that's it!"...finished, fini, the end, etc)

But?....(over the passage of time, and traditions of men?)
26 For this cause God gave them up unto vile affections: for even their women did change the natural use into that which is against nature:


27 And likewise also the men, leaving the natural use of the woman, burned in their lust one toward another; men with men working that which is unseemly, and receiving in themselves that recompence of their error which was meet.


28 And even as they did not like to retain God in their knowledge, God gave them over to a reprobate mind, to do those things which are not convenient;


29 Being filled with all unrighteousness, fornication, wickedness, covetousness, maliciousness; full of envy, murder, debate, deceit, malignity; whisperers,


30 Backbiters, haters of God, despiteful, proud, boasters, inventors of evil things, disobedient to parents,


31 Without understanding, covenantbreakers, without natural affection, implacable, unmerciful:


32 Who knowing the judgment of God, that they which commit such things are worthy of death, not only do the same, but have pleasure in them that do them.

As is fairly obvious these days? This is permeating "today's" churches of stone! And sadly, growing!