Why the Adversary HATES the Pre-Tribulation Resurrection-Rapture

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Deade

Called of God
Dec 17, 2017
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yeshuaofisrael.org
#81
The dead are asleep. Paul may have said: to be absent from the body is to be present with the Lord. OK, to close your eyes at night: presto - it is morning. It is the same principal.

Nobody is in heaven yet: John 3:13: "And no man hath ascended up to heaven, but he that came down from heaven, even the Son of man which is in heaven." They are asleep.

Acts 2:29: "Men and brethren, let me freely speak unto you of the patriarch David, that he is both dead and buried, and his sepulchre is with us unto this day."

Acts 2:34, 35: "For David is not ascended into the heavens: but he saith himself, The LORD said unto my Lord, Sit thou on my right hand, Until I make thy foes thy footstool."

All the OT patriarchs are mentioned in Heb.11 and none of them have received their reward yet. Heb. 12 is just a reference to Mount Zion which is new Jerusalem, yet future. Heb. 11:40: "God having provided some better thing for us, that they without us should not be made perfect." New Jerusalem is being prepared and is coming to earth with the "many mansions" that the father is preparing.

Heaven (the Kingdom of) is coming to earth. Rev. 5:10: "And hast made us unto our God kings and priests: and we shall reign on the earth." Rev. 20:6: "Blessed and holy is he that hath part in the first resurrection: on such the second death hath no power, but they shall be priests of God and of Christ, and shall reign with him a thousand years."

From this, we can deduce nobody is in heaven and nobody is going there.
 

Nehemiah6

Senior Member
Jul 18, 2017
11,495
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#82
Do you think all these events will happen twice? No way. Both sets of scripture are describing a single event.
The difference between the two passages is very clear. "To meet the Lord in the air" is not stated in Matthew 24, and there are no angels sent out to gather the Church in 1 Thess 4.
 

Nehemiah6

Senior Member
Jul 18, 2017
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#83
The dead are asleep
False. How can they be "witnesses" if they are asleep?
Wherefore seeing we also are compassed about with so great a cloud of witnesses, let us lay aside every weight, and the sin which doth so easily beset us, and let us run with patience the race that is set before us, (Heb 12:1)
Nobody is in heaven yet
False. How can they all be in the New Jerusalem if they are not in Heaven yet?
But ye are come unto mount Sion, and unto the city of the living God, the heavenly Jerusalem, and to an innumerable company of angels, To the general assembly and church of the firstborn, which are written in heaven, and to God the Judge of all, and to the spirits of just men made perfect, And to Jesus the mediator of the new covenant, and to the blood of sprinkling, that speaketh better things than that of Abel. (Heb 12:22-14)
 

Lucy-Pevensie

Senior Member
Dec 20, 2017
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#84
The two set of scriptures below are the same exact event. There is only one Second Coming (The Day of the Lord) and there is no rapture (as preached). When Jesus meets us in the air you will find no where in scripture that He brings us to heaven. What you do find in scripture is that He brings us to the 1000yr period of rest.

1 Thessalonians 4 and 5
4:15 - coming (Parousia)
4:17 - clouds
4:16 - shout, voice trump
4:17 - caught up together
5:1 – times and seasons
5:2 - a thief
5:3 - sudden destruction
5:6 - watch

Matthew 24
24:27 - coming (Parousia)
24:30 - clouds
24:31 - sound of a trumpet
24:31 - gather together
24:36 - day or hour
24:43 - a thief
24:39 - took them in a flood
24:42 - watch

Do you think all these events will happen twice? No way. Both sets of scripture are describing a single event.
These are good study notes. Thank you for posting.
 

dcontroversal

Senior Member
Dec 12, 2013
45,580
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#85
Sounds good but is not supported by the Scriptures specific to the Rapture.

So let's contrast what is in Matthew 24 with what is in 1 Thessalonians 4 and 1 Corinthians 15.

1. The timing -- the Rapture is BEFORE the second coming for the simple reason that the Marriage of the Lamb (which requires all the saints to be present in Heaven) is before the second coming. See Rev 19. The elect are gathered from the four winds AFTER the second coming of Christ (who is surrounded by His saints and angels).

2. Who is involved -- At the Rapture Christ ALONE comes with the souls and spirits of those who died in Christ for their resurrection, and gives a shout to summon those who are alive at that time to come to Heaven. After the second coming, Christ send His angels to gather the elect to Israel.

3. The purpose -- the Resurrection-Rapture is for the perfection and glorification of the saints BEFORE the second coming, whereas the gathering of the believing Jewish remnant is for the establishment of a redeemed and restored kingdom of Israel on earth.
Yeah it is...........Point 1...wrong, Point 2...Half wrong, Point 3....wrong......

0 for 3.........
 

fredoheaven

Senior Member
Nov 17, 2015
2,753
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#86
The resurrection and rapture occur at His coming.


  • we who are alive and remain until the coming of the Lord will by no means precede those who are asleep.


15 For this we say to you by the word of the Lord, that we who are alive and remain until the coming of the Lord will by no means precede those who are asleep. 16 For the Lord Himself will descend from heaven with a shout, with the voice of an archangel, and with the trumpet of God. And the dead in Christ will rise first. 17 Then we who are alive and remain shall be caught up together with them in the clouds to meet the Lord in the air. And thus we shall always be with the Lord. 1 Thessalonians 4:15-17




JPT
Related to the above reference on the subject is "...in the moment of twinkling of an eye..." in 1 Corinthians so that those that are alive in Christ shall be changed though the first ressurection of the dead may have occured first in these instaneous event and togethet as in verse 17 says will be caught up in the air to meet the Lord.
This is what i am seeing as far as the subjject is concerned.
 

fredoheaven

Senior Member
Nov 17, 2015
2,753
561
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#87
Sounds good but is not supported by the Scriptures specific to the Rapture.

So let's contrast what is in Matthew 24 with what is in 1 Thessalonians 4 and 1 Corinthians 15.

1. The timing -- the Rapture is BEFORE the second coming for the simple reason that the Marriage of the Lamb (which requires all the saints to be present in Heaven) is before the second coming. See Rev 19. The elect are gathered from the four winds AFTER the second coming of Christ (who is surrounded by His saints and angels).

2. Who is involved -- At the Rapture Christ ALONE comes with the souls and spirits of those who died in Christ for their resurrection, and gives a shout to summon those who are alive at that time to come to Heaven. After the second coming, Christ send His angels to gather the elect to Israel.

3. The purpose -- the Resurrection-Rapture is for the perfection and glorification of the saints BEFORE the second coming, whereas the gathering of the believing Jewish remnant is for the establishment of a redeemed and restored kingdom of Israel on earth.
On the very purpose, the visible coming of Christ to restore his kingdom is pretty supported in the scripture.
Acts 1:11 Which also said, Ye men of Galilee, why stand ye gazing up into heaven? this same Jesus, which is taken up from you into heaven, shall so come in like manner as ye have seen him go into heaven.
 

Ahwatukee

Senior Member
Mar 12, 2015
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#88
God offered the Messiah to the Jews. The Jews rejected Him, and reaped the results of it in 70 ad.

God then offered the Christ to the world. The world is rejecting Him, and will soon reap the results of that.

There was a rich man who took pride in what he had stored up on earth for his future. But his life was demanded that night.

That heart attack, that car crash, that your-ticket-is-punched moment ... that's your rapture.

Pray for pre, prepare for post, and be ready even now.
How do you figure that the moment one dies that is there rapture i.e. being caught up to the Lord?

We have to keep with what the scripture says regarding the event of the catching up of the church. That said, it is not an individual event, but a group event which involves the entire church from beginning to end. Let's look at the scripture:

"For the Lord Himself will descend from heaven with a loud command, with the voice of an archangel, and with the trumpet of God, and the dead in Christ will be the first to rise. After that, we who are alive and remain will be caught up together with them in the clouds to meet the Lord in the air. And so we will always be with the Lord."

So first of all, when the gathering takes place, the scripture says that the Lord will descend from heaven.

This being the cash, according to what you are claiming about, i.e. the rapture takes place at the moment a each believer dies, would mean that Christ would have to descend many times a day and night ever since He ascended.

Next, the scripture says that, the dead in Christ will rise first, the dead being in the plural, meaning every believer who has died from the on-set of the church will resurrect at the same time as a group.

Next the scripture says, after the dead have resurrected, those who are still alive in Christ will be changed and caught up together with those dead who will have just resurrected.

Therefore, the rapture, i.e. catching away is shown to be a group event, where the entire church dead and living, will be caught up together to meet the Lord in the air at one specific time.

What does happen at the time of death, is that the spirit departs from the body and goes to be in the presence of the Lord. Those who have died from the on-set of the church, their spirits have gone to be in the presence of the Lord and are waiting for the resurrection of their immortal and glorified bodies from heaven. Where we who still alive in Christ, are looking for the resurrection and our being changed and caught up from here on earth.

That heart attack, that car crash, that your-ticket-is-punched moment[/quote

Your ticket is indeed punched here, in that your body has died, but until the resurrection takes place, your spirit will remain in the Lord's presence until the Lord descends to gather the church, then the spirit will be reunited with the resurrected body.
 

Ahwatukee

Senior Member
Mar 12, 2015
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#89
There is no crystal clear indication of a long interval between two events.
The 'rapture' & the second coming needn't be separated by a long expanse of time. They could easily occur simultaneously.
The scripture has the dead rising first and the living being changed instantaneously. In a moment. In the twinkling of an eye.
Hello Lucy,

Actually, the gathering of the church and the Lord's return to the earth cannot occur simultaneously. And the reason why is that, the complete wrath of God via the seals, trumpets and bowl judgments must be fulfilled before Christ returns to the earth to end the age. In fact He returns shortly after the 7th bowl has been poured out.

That said, since the church cannot go through God's wrath, which again takes place throughout that entire period leading up to Christ's return to the earth, then the event of the gathering of the church must take place prior to the on-set of God's wrath.

If the dead were to be resurrected and the living changed and caught up at the same time of the second coming of Christ, it would put the living church through the entire wrath of God.
 

Ahwatukee

Senior Member
Mar 12, 2015
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#90
MATTHEW 24 [29]IMMEDIATELY AFTER THE TRIBULATION of those days shall the sun be darkened, and the moon shall not give her light, and the stars shall fall from heaven, and the powers of the heavens shall be shaken: [30] And then shall appear the sign of the Son of man in heaven: and then shall all the tribes of the earth mourn, and they shall see the Son of man coming in the clouds of heaven with power and great glory. [31] And he shall send his angels with A GREAT SOUND OF A TRUMPET, and THEY SHALL GATHER TOGETHER HIS ELECT from the four winds, from one end of heaven to the other.

After trib - last trumpet - gather elect {in the twinkling of an eye}
Hello Wall,

That "loud trumpet call" is to send the Lord's angels throughout the earth to gather living people, those who will have made it through the time of God's wrath and the beast's kingdom. That is not referring the dead and living in Christ being resurrected and caught up.

There are many types of trumpets with different purposes throughout God's word. Therefore, the word "trumpet" is not unique to a specific event. For example, the "loud trumpet call" in Matt.24:31, has nothing to do with the "trumpet of God" in I Thes.4:16 or 1 Cor.15:52 or the 7th trumpet of the trumpet judgments. They are all different trumpets with different purposes.

When the Lord descends from heaven to the earth to end the age, the church will be with him (Rev.17:14, 19:14) and at that time he will send His angels out with a loud trumpet call and they will gather all of those great tribulation saints who make it through the time of God's wrath. These are synonymous with the wheat of the wheat and tares parable.

What you are doing is misapplying the two different events by relating them as being the same trumpets, which they are not.
 

Ahwatukee

Senior Member
Mar 12, 2015
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#91
1 CORINTHIANS 15 [42] So also is THE RESURRECTION OF THE DEAD. It is sown in corruption; it is RAISED IN INCORRUPTION: [43] It is sown in dishonour; it is raised in glory: it is sown in weakness; it is raised in power:

1 COR. 15 [51] Behold, I shew you a mystery; We shall not all sleep, but we shall all be changed, [52] In a moment, in the twinkling of an eye, at the last trump: for the trumpet shall sound, and the dead shall be RAISED INCORRUPTIBLE, and we shall be changed.

Most Rapturist claim that at the 1Cor15 event {that they call the rapture} they are changed, meet the Lord in the air and its of to heaven. They also claim this happens BEFORE the tribulation period. Problem is, the beast appears during the tribulation and those who are in this resurrection {1Cor15} will have confronted the beast

REV. 20 [4] And I saw thrones, and they sat upon them, and judgment was given unto them: and I SAW THE SOULS OF THEM that were beheaded for the witness of Jesus, and for the word of God, and WHICH HAD NOT WORSHIPPED THE BEAST, NEITHER HIS IMAGE, NEITHER HAD RECEIVED HIS MARK UPON THEIR FOREHEADS, OR IN THEIR HANDS; AND THEY LIVED AND REIGNED WITH CHRIST A THOUSAND YEARS. [5] But the rest of the dead lived not again until the thousand years were finished. THIS IS THE FIRST RESURRECTION. [6] BLESSED AND HOLY IS HE THAT HATH PART IN THE FIRST RESURRECTION: ON SUCH THE SECOND DEATH HATH NO POWER, but they shall be priests of God and of Christ, and shall reign with him a thousand years.

What we find here are peoples who did not take the mark of the beast PRIOR to this resurrection. The same resurrection spoken of in 1Cor.15. The FIRST resurrection. So if those who are in this resurrection had confronted the “beast” youve got to know that they went through the tribulation period.
Hello Wall,

Those who you are referring to in Rev.20:4-6 are the great tribulation saints and not the church. These are those who are introduced in Rev.7:9-17 who come out of the great tribulation. These are those who will become believers in Christ after the church has been gathered and are also those mentioned in Rev.13 who the beast is given authority over and conquers for 42 months , which is that last 3 1/2 years until Christ returns at the end of it.

To be clear, the event mentioned in 1 Cor.15:51-52 is synonymous with the event in 1 Thes.4:13-17 which is regarding the gathering of the church and which takes place prior to God's wrath. While the resurrection in Rev.20:4-6 has to do with the great tribulation saints and which takes place after God's wrath and after the Lord returns to the earth to end the age.

I would also add that, the event of the church being gathered involves the dead being resurrected and the living being changed and caught up. Where the event of Rev.20:4-6 is only a resurrection, with no mention of the living in Christ being changed and caught up and that because they are two separate events that take place at different times.
 

MattforJesus

Senior Member
Apr 15, 2017
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#92
The argument that some people make is God would not let the saints go through the tribulation for He loves them, and would not want them to go through that.

But that does not hold up on that saying alone, for if a person bases it on that then God would of not allowed any saint to ever be persecuted throughout the whole history of the Church, which we know they have been persecuted, and the Bible says all who live godly will suffer persecution, and they are counted as sheep for the slaughter, and killed all the day long.

And who do they think the tribulation is for, but it is for the saints, and the world would not go through tribulation, but wrath after the resurrection of the saints.

Also the Bible says there is only 2 resurrections, one of the saints before the millennial reign, and one after the millennial reign, which blessed is he that has part in the first resurrection, for the second resurrection has no hold on them.

But the Bible says there are saints during the whole 7 years period, so where did they come from.

There is no tribulation saints after the resurrection of the saints, for whoever missed that will have to go to the second resurrection 1000 years later, so if the resurrection happens before the 7 years period begins, then all people left will have to go to the second resurrection.

Also Jesus said whoever does not make it in the resurrection will have their portion with the hypocrites, there will be weeping and gnashing of teeth, and once the resurrection happens, and He shuts the door no person can enter after that.

The Jews will be saved on earth, for all Israel will be saved, but Israel as a nation has not been turned to Jesus during the first three and one half years, and the whole nation does not turn to Jesus until the end of the 7 years period, although many will turn to Jesus before that during the last three and one half years.

And also Israel is protected for the 7 years period from physical attack(Revelation 12).

God is love and loves all people, and will not give up on the world until the world gives up on Him, so He is giving the world 7 years to have their way, and cause all people that do not love Him to follow the beast kingdom, and then He will put them down.

During the first three and one half years repentance, and salvation, are still available to the world, so the saints will remain on earth to represent the truth, and Israel as a nation has not been turned to Jesus yet, so it is not them that will be the witness.

As long as the world can repent of their sins, and be saved, the resurrection shall not happen, which during the first three and one half years repentance, and salvation, is still available to the world, so the saints will remain on earth.

The 6 trumpets are 6 warnings to the world to get right with God, for He is giving the world a chance for the first three and one half years to get right with Him.

After the 6th trumpet, Islam against the world, the world will not repent of their sins, and turn to God, so He gives them the man of sin to rule over them, and he will deceive all people that do not love Him.

An example is WW1, set up League of Nations, did not turn to God, WW2, set up United Nations, did not turn to God, and that pattern will continue until WW3, Islam against the world, which the world turns to the man of sin as the solution to have peace on earth, and did not turn to God, so God gives the world the man of sin to rule over them.

Which the transgressors are come to the full, and when they follow the beast, and take his mark then repentance, and salvation, are no longer available to them, and then the saints will be resurrected, for they do not need to be on earth to represent the truth to the world.

Which is why the Bible says that the saints shall not be gathered unto Christ, until there is a falling away first, which means the condition of the world in response to the Gospel, and the truth, which during the first three and one half years they are going by a unified religious system based on evolution, and people can still evolve, as standard religion, and any beliefs taught not compatible will not be tolerated, and a hate crime, which will be the time the world will not endure sound doctrine, but will want to believe the Bible according to their own lusts(2 Timothy 4:2-4), which is the new age movement interpretation of the Bible, based on evolution through nature, and people can still evolve(1 Timothy 4:1-5), which they want the New Age Christ to cause them to evolve to be greater, who will have all the traits of the new age movement, and the man of sin claims to be God to the world, then the saints can be gathered unto Christ.

But then the Bible says the beast shall make war against the saints, and prevail against them at the start of the last three and one half years, but there is no tribulation saints for there is no tribulation saints if the resurrection happened before the 7 years period, and the 2 witnesses just started preaching to Israel to turn them to the truth, so Israel as a nation is not in the truth, and the majority is blinded in part, and Israel is protected for the 7 years period from physical attack.

Also the Bible says that the beast shall wear out the saints, and they shall be given in to his hands for three and one half years, and when he has accomplished to scatter the power of the holy people then all things are finished, and the resurrection shall happen.

Which the Bible says then comes the end when the Son shall deliver up the kingdom to the Father, when He has put down the all rule, and authority, and power.

But the antichrist cannot scatter the power of Israel, for they will never be removed for God has a plan for them, and said when He turns Israel to the truth at the last three and one half years that the whole house of Israel will be back on their land, all 12 tribes.

So the power of the holy people that the beast scatters at the last three and one half years has to be the Gentiles that are throughout the world.

And that is because God is love, and loves all people, and will not give up on the world until the world gives up on Him, so He is allowing them to go that far in persecuting the truth, before it is over for the world.

There will be Gentile saints in the tribulation, and they cannot be tribulation saints that got right with God after the resurrection, for there is no Gentile saints after the resurrection, for if they missed the resurrection they have to go to the second resurrection, and they missed the resurrection because they were either hypocritical, or did not abide by the truth, so they have no chance at salvation after the resurrection.

Also the Gospel must be preached in to all the world as a witness to all nations and then the resurrection, so if they missed the resurrection they cannot be saved, for they missed the resurrection because they did not obey the Gospel, so there is no chance to be saved after the resurrection for a Gentile.

Which the resurrection of the saints does not occur until the man of sin claims to be God, so the Gentile saints which are alive will go through the tribulation, which the tribulation applies to them.

1Th 5:1 But of the times and the seasons, brethren, ye have no need that I write unto you.
1Th 5:2 For yourselves know perfectly that the day of the Lord so cometh as a thief in the night.
1Th 5:3 For when they shall say, Peace and safety; then sudden destruction cometh upon them, as travail upon a woman with child; and they shall not escape.
1Th 5:4 But ye, brethren, are not in darkness, that that day should overtake you as a thief.
1Th 5:5 Ye are all the children of light, and the children of the day: we are not of the night, nor of darkness.
1Th 5:6 Therefore let us not sleep, as do others; but let us watch and be sober.

Also Paul said when the nations come together and say Peace and safety the saints will not be deceived by that, but the nations coming together saying Peace and safety is when the 7 years period will start, and the saints are on earth at the start of the 7 years period.

Rev 3:10 Because thou hast kept the word of my patience, I also will keep thee from the hour of temptation, which shall come upon all the world, to try them that dwell upon the earth.

The 7 Churches is how the Church age will go in popular interpretation, although when it is wrong God always has people in the truth.

And Jesus said He will deliver all people that are in the truth from the hour of temptation, which shall come upon all the world, to try them that dwell upon the earth.

But there can only be one temptation that can come upon every single human being at the same time, and that is when the world says Peace and safety, for will you stay with God, get right with God, or follow the world to the beast kingdom.

So the saints are on earth when the 7 years period starts.

There is no pre-trib resurrection.

2Ti 2:15 Study to shew thyself approved unto God, a workman that needeth not to be ashamed, rightly dividing the word of truth.
2Ti 2:16 But shun profane and vain babblings: for they will increase unto more ungodliness.
2Ti 2:17 And their word will eat as doth a canker: of whom is Hymenaeus and Philetus;
2Ti 2:18 Who concerning the truth have erred, saying that the resurrection is past already; and overthrow the faith of some.

There is no pre-trib resurrection, and when it does not happen it will overthrow the faith of some, and they will end up following the world, and their interpretation of the Bible, based on spiritual evolution through nature, which the Bible says concerning the new age movement that some shall depart from the faith, and follow them, and is some of the reason because of the pre-trib resurrection, and when it did not happen they said, well it was not true, and the interpretation we was taught was not true, and they end up following the world.
 

Ahwatukee

Senior Member
Mar 12, 2015
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#93
The two set of scriptures below are the same exact event. There is only one Second Coming (The Day of the Lord) and there is no rapture (as preached). When Jesus meets us in the air you will find no where in scripture that He brings us to heaven. What you do find in scripture is that He brings us to the 1000yr period of rest.

1 Thessalonians 4 and 5
4:15 - coming (Parousia)
4:17 - clouds
4:16 - shout, voice trump
4:17 - caught up together
5:1 – times and seasons
5:2 - a thief
5:3 - sudden destruction
5:6 - watch

Matthew 24
24:27 - coming (Parousia)
24:30 - clouds
24:31 - sound of a trumpet
24:31 - gather together
24:36 - day or hour
24:43 - a thief
24:39 - took them in a flood
24:42 - watch

Do you think all these events will happen twice? No way. Both sets of scripture are describing a single event.
The living church being caught up at the same time that the Lord returns to the earth to end the age, would put the church through the entire wrath of God which is always the problem for those making this claim.

Clouds and trumpets and not exclusive to any given specific event.

Revelation 19:11-21 is a detailed account of when the Lord returns to the earth to end the age. Below is a excerpt from that event:

"Hallelujah! For our Lord God Almighty reigns.
Let us rejoice and be glad and give him glory! For the wedding of the Lamb has come, and his bride has made herself ready. Fine linen, bright and clean, was given her to wear." (Fine linen stands for the righteous acts of God's holy people.)

The scripture above shows the bride, which is another designation for the church, receiving her fine linen, white and clean at the wedding of the Lamb, which is taking place in heaven.

"The armies of heaven were following him, riding on white horses and dressed in fine linen, white and clean."

In the verse above, the armies in heaven are non other than the bride/church following Christ out of heaven, for she is wearing the same fine linen, white and clean that she will have received at the wedding of the Lamb.
 

Ahwatukee

Senior Member
Mar 12, 2015
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#94
The argument that some people make is God would not let the saints go through the tribulation for He loves them, and would not want them to go through that.

But that does not hold up on that saying alone, for if a person bases it on that then God would of not allowed any saint to ever be persecuted throughout the whole history of the Church, which we know they have been persecuted, and the Bible says all who live godly will suffer persecution, and they are counted as sheep for the slaughter, and killed all the day long.

And who do they think the tribulation is for, but it is for the saints, and the world would not go through tribulation, but wrath after the resurrection of the saints.
Hello MattforJesus,

I would interject here to say that, the problem with many expositors is interpreting the tribulation period as being separate from God's wrath, when they are the same thing. The tribulation period is represented by that last seven years, which is God's tribulation, not man's or Satan's. And that because that last seven years will be the completion of the seventy sevens that were decreed upon Israel and Jerusalem. What makes it God's tribulation are the seals, trumpets and bowl judgments and everything that takes place during that time period is apart of God's wrath, including the events performed by the beast and false prophet. In fact, during the time of His wrath, God is going to put it into the hearts of the beast and ten kings to hate the woman who rides the beast and destroy her with fire during the last 3 1/2 years of that seven year period (Rev.17:16-18).
 
Oct 31, 2015
1,807
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#95
Related to the above reference on the subject is "...in the moment of twinkling of an eye..." in 1 Corinthians so that those that are alive in Christ shall be changed though the first ressurection of the dead may have occured first in these instaneous event and togethet as in verse 17 says will be caught up in the air to meet the Lord.
This is what i am seeing as far as the subjject is concerned.

Here is the context of 1 Corinthians 15 concerning the resurrection.


Paul is teaching them about the coming of the Lord and the resurrection.


22 For as in Adam all die, even so in Christ all shall be made alive. 23 But each one in his own order: Christ the firstfruits, afterward those who are Christ’s at His coming. 1 Corinthians 15:22-23


  • Christ the firstfruits, afterward those who are Christ’s at His coming.


The Resurrection of the dead in Christ, is first - the dead in Christ will rise first.
Then the Rapture - Then we who are alive and remain shall be caught up together with them
Then the destruction of the antichrist. - destroy with the brightness of His coming.


All three of these things take place at His coming.


15 For this we say to you by the word of the Lord, that we who are alive and remain until the coming of the Lord will by no means precede those who are asleep. 16 For the Lord Himself will descend from heaven with a shout, with the voice of an archangel, and with the trumpet of God. And the dead in Christ will rise first. 17 Then we who are alive and remain shall be caught up together with them in the clouds to meet the Lord in the air. And thus we shall always be with the Lord. 1 Thessalonians 4:15-17





Now, brethren, concerning the coming of our Lord Jesus Christ and our gathering together to Him, we ask you,
And then the lawless one will be revealed, whom the Lord will consume with the breath of His mouth and destroy with the brightness of His coming. 2 Thessalonians 2:1,8




JPT
 

Stunnedbygrace

Senior Member
Nov 12, 2015
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#97
Do you think all these events will happen twice? No way. Both sets of scripture are describing a single event.
They did not understand that He was coming twice previously. The scriptures were all there, but they couldn't see it. Given that He causes things to repeat over and over, as ecclesiastes says, it is not a call-the-guys-in-the-white-coats idea to consider that it may happen again and that once more, we can't see it. In fact, Daniel was told to seal up the words of the book until the time of the end, which supports the thought that we cannot see it all.
 

Stunnedbygrace

Senior Member
Nov 12, 2015
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#98
On the very purpose, the visible coming of Christ to restore his kingdom is pretty supported in the scripture.
Acts 1:11 Which also said, Ye men of Galilee, why stand ye gazing up into heaven? this same Jesus, which is taken up from you into heaven, shall so come in like manner as ye have seen him go into heaven.
They saw Him go into heaven in this manner: they were looking intently at the sky as He was going. It sounds like when you release a helium balloon and you can watch it going up, peering intently and squinting to see it as it grows smaller and smaller and goes from a barely visible speck, to being not visible. This is a much different description than if He had just instantly disappeared.
Some endtimes verses support that He will return in this same way, and that He will be seen as He is coming.

Other endtimes verses seem to state that it will be very fast and sudden, just as lightning flashes across the sky, which sounds different than returning the same way they saw Him go.

If you lay all of the verses out and examine them, they appear to be sometimes speaking in support of coming in the same way they saw Him go and sometimes to be speaking so different of a description that they might almost be speaking of a different event...
 

RickyZ

Senior Member
Sep 20, 2012
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#99
How do you figure that the moment one dies that is there rapture i.e. being caught up to the Lord?

We have to keep with what the scripture says regarding the event of the catching up of the church. That said, it is not an individual event, but a group event which involves the entire church from beginning to end. Let's look at the scripture:

"For the Lord Himself will descend from heaven with a loud command, with the voice of an archangel, and with the trumpet of God, and the dead in Christ will be the first to rise. After that, we who are alive and remain will be caught up together with them in the clouds to meet the Lord in the air. And so we will always be with the Lord."

So first of all, when the gathering takes place, the scripture says that the Lord will descend from heaven.

This being the cash, according to what you are claiming about, i.e. the rapture takes place at the moment a each believer dies, would mean that Christ would have to descend many times a day and night ever since He ascended.

Next, the scripture says that, the dead in Christ will rise first, the dead being in the plural, meaning every believer who has died from the on-set of the church will resurrect at the same time as a group.

Next the scripture says, after the dead have resurrected, those who are still alive in Christ will be changed and caught up together with those dead who will have just resurrected.

Therefore, the rapture, i.e. catching away is shown to be a group event, where the entire church dead and living, will be caught up together to meet the Lord in the air at one specific time.

What does happen at the time of death, is that the spirit departs from the body and goes to be in the presence of the Lord. Those who have died from the on-set of the church, their spirits have gone to be in the presence of the Lord and are waiting for the resurrection of their immortal and glorified bodies from heaven. Where we who still alive in Christ, are looking for the resurrection and our being changed and caught up from here on earth.
Question ... is God and the eternal realm constrained to our time frame? Do things that happen here on earth, that we see, have to occur in the same order in heaven? Is it possible that even though we are taken from this world in a particular order (first those we see die one by one, and at the end the incredibly few living survivors - we all arrive to meet Christ at the same time? Picture it from another view ... that of Jesus. Having sat at the hand of the Father, He decides it's time to return to earth. He arises and gathers His saints - now from our view, that means Joe dies in 1940 and Sally dies in 1990 and Bob passes in 2010 .. we seeing the dead go first .. In Jesus view, He sees suddenly there was the multitude. Again.. is it possible that even tho we depart this planet one by one, we arrive before Him all at once?

And if that is the case, yes, that heart attacks puts you before Christ as He returns. It is your rapture.
 

tanakh

Senior Member
Dec 1, 2015
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JUDE 1 [14] And Enoch also, the seventh from Adam, prophesied of these, saying, Behold, THE LORD COMETH WITH TEN THOUSANDS OF HIS SAINTS,[15] To execute judgment upon all, and to convince all that are ungodly among them of all their ungodly deeds which they have ungodly committed, and of all their hard speeches which ungodly sinners have spoken against him.

The Lord cometh with ten thousands of his saints

DEUT.33 [1] And this is the blessing, wherewith Moses the man of God blessed the children of Israel before his death.[2] And he said, THE LORD CAME FROM SINAI, and rose up from Seir unto them; he shined forth from mount Paran, and HE CAME WITH TEN THOUSANDS OF SAINTS: from his right hand went a fiery law for them.[3] Yea, he loved the people; all his saints are in thy hand: and they sat down at thy feet; every one shall receive of thy words.[4] Moses commanded us a law, even the inheritance of the congregation of Jacob.

So if the “ten thousands of saints” in Jude are only those that were raptured, who are the “ten thousands of saints” in Deuteronomy that were coming round the mountain before the death of Moses {long before your rapture}, and why werent they allowed to cometh?
1 CORINTHIANS 15 [42] So also is THE RESURRECTION OF THE DEAD. It is sown in corruption; it is RAISED IN INCORRUPTION: [43] It is sown in dishonour; it is raised in glory: it is sown in weakness; it is raised in power:

1 COR. 15 [51] Behold, I shew you a mystery; We shall not all sleep, but we shall all be changed, [52] In a moment, in the twinkling of an eye, at the last trump: for the trumpet shall sound, and the dead shall be RAISED INCORRUPTIBLE, and we shall be changed.

Most Rapturist claim that at the 1Cor15 event {that they call the rapture} they are changed, meet the Lord in the air and its of to heaven. They also claim this happens BEFORE the tribulation period. Problem is, the beast appears during the tribulation and those who are in this resurrection {1Cor15} will have confronted the beast

REV. 20 [4] And I saw thrones, and they sat upon them, and judgment was given unto them: and I SAW THE SOULS OF THEM that were beheaded for the witness of Jesus, and for the word of God, and WHICH HAD NOT WORSHIPPED THE BEAST, NEITHER HIS IMAGE, NEITHER HAD RECEIVED HIS MARK UPON THEIR FOREHEADS, OR IN THEIR HANDS; AND THEY LIVED AND REIGNED WITH CHRIST A THOUSAND YEARS. [5] But the rest of the dead lived not again until the thousand years were finished. THIS IS THE FIRST RESURRECTION. [6] BLESSED AND HOLY IS HE THAT HATH PART IN THE FIRST RESURRECTION: ON SUCH THE SECOND DEATH HATH NO POWER, but they shall be priests of God and of Christ, and shall reign with him a thousand years.

What we find here are peoples who did not take the mark of the beast PRIOR to this resurrection. The same resurrection spoken of in 1Cor.15. The FIRST resurrection. So if those who are in this resurrection had confronted the “beast” youve got to know that they went through the tribulation period.
Pre Tribbers try to get round this conundrum by inventing another group of believers they call the ''tribulation saints'' These supposed saints are a sort of second class group that weren't good enough to be raptured the first time so they had to go through the tribulation and be killed by the beast. Seeing that the rapture is supposed to resurrect believers and transform their bodies from mortality to immortality one has to come to the conclusion that there has to be another rapture for this group. One begins to wonder how many raptures there are exactly. It turns the whole thing into a sort of shuttle service. It also shows how ridiculous the whole system of teaching is.