Why the "NT-only, grace-only" theology is off the mark

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p_rehbein

Senior Member
Sep 4, 2013
30,323
6,617
113
#61
QUOTE:

Mainstream Christian believers insists "Jesus" preached the Gospel - the Good News about the Messiah's death, burial, and resurrection - which is all Christians tend to focus on. But Scripture, read in context, reveals He did NOT preach those things at all; rather, He preached the Kingdom of YHWH (Yahweh)!

END QUOTE.......

So, you are saying that Jesus NEVER spoke of the need for Him to be crucified? Is that right?

....and, you do understand that HE IS the KINGDOM?.......
 
C

cfultz3

Guest
#62
"For we hold that one is justified by faith apart from works of the law." Romans 3:28
Could not agree more!!

By faith, we have received a reversal of our death sentence. All the more to hearken unto the One having given us this LIFE by the path He leads on. It has always been about fulfilling God's will, from the Garden of Eden to the last soul resurrected into that promised life. Amen....
 
C

cfultz3

Guest
#63
If we do the Torah (first five books of the bible) we will use Christ's blood for sin offering, the principles will be the same, the blood will have changed and by following scripture we would know to use Christ. We would go to the high priest, and by following scripture we would know who that high priest is now, but we would go to the high priest.
Interesting....it seems that it is being said here that we are to live our daily life as though we are Jewish in nature. That is, our daily motions are done according to the Law which was given to Moses. If this is the case, then what are we to do with the Law from the Spirit sent from Jesus Christ? A Law which says that we have been liberated from the bondage of fear, the one which says that Jesus came and shined a light upon those who set in darkness, the one which says that the Law is fulfilled by love, the law which says to follow Jesus to the promised Land.

Just as a citizen of a country cannot be under the jurisdiction of two countries, neither can we, as citizens of God's Kingdom, be under the law from two houses. We either follow the Law (the first 5 Books) given to us through Moses or we follow the Law from the Spirit sent from Jesus Christ. The Law which says that God's will is love and by which, we fulfill the Law which is spoken to us by the Lawgiver Himself.

Remember this: let no one condemn another for which holy days or foods he does or does not partake of? If it is true that we are to live a Jewish lifestyle, then this verse alone says quite the contrary. Not to mention that it also says but about 5 or 6 things from the Law apply to the Gentile Christian. If Jesus leads to the Law, then this verse speaks the reverse also.

It is a conscious thing now. If one is led by the Spirit to keep a certain day, then let him hearken unto the Lord. If another say that all days are the same, then let Him be guided. It is a personal choice and as you have said, it is not used for righteousness, but to get to know Jesus. But, never forget the reason why you do it, to get to know God and His will through His Law. And last but not least, never forget that it can never give justification like Jesus, only death to all who attempts pleasing God through deeds of the flesh. But, I have a hunch that you knew that already :)

Be pleasing to the Lord and let not that which you allow be a burden upon someone else.
 
C

cfultz3

Guest
#64
Any time anyone wants to condemn the law, this truth about what it can not do it brought out, but when this part of the law is told, I have never seen scriptures added about the blessings of the law. There are other things in the bible about what the law cannot do, you could list them, too.

By the way, the law can't pay our bills, either. How about listing that? But that is being sarcastic and I hate sarcasm. But I can't resist.
That is because what you consider condemning of the Law, others consider it as placing Law in its proper place. I remember someone not to long ago who basically said that the Law is not for our righteous, but is good to get to know God. Was that you? Perhaps, they are saying the same thing too. Not one, just one maybe, will say that we can disobey God's will and that will is love and that love is written in moral laws which are found in the Old Testament. You see Redtent, no one is condemning the Law, only saying that the Law has only death to hand out to those who follow it for their righteousness.

I am giving ear to you and others, maybe it is time to stop and listen to people and see what they are saying. Not one will say we can be lawless. Ask them and I bet every time they answer, it will be according to God moral Law. Ask them.....
 
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WomanLovesTX

Senior Member
Jan 1, 2010
1,390
38
0
#65
Interesting....it seems that it is being said here that we are to live our daily life as though we are Jewish in nature. That is, our daily motions are done according to the Law which was given to Moses. If this is the case, then what are we to do with the Law from the Spirit sent from Jesus Christ? A Law which says that we have been liberated from the bondage of fear, the one which says that Jesus came and shined a light upon those who set in darkness, the one which says that the Law is fulfilled by love, the law which says to follow Jesus to the promised Land.

Just as a citizen of a country cannot be under the jurisdiction of two countries, neither can we, as citizens of God's Kingdom, be under the law from two houses. We either follow the Law (the first 5 Books) given to us through Moses or we follow the Law from the Spirit sent from Jesus Christ. The Law which says that God's will is love and by which, we fulfill the Law which is spoken to us by the Lawgiver Himself.

Remember this: let no one condemn another for which holy days or foods he does or does not partake of? If it is true that we are to live a Jewish lifestyle, then this verse alone says quite the contrary. Not to mention that it also says but about 5 or 6 things from the Law apply to the Gentile Christian. If Jesus leads to the Law, then this verse speaks the reverse also.

It is a conscious thing now. If one is led by the Spirit to keep a certain day, then let him hearken unto the Lord. If another say that all days are the same, then let Him be guided. It is a personal choice and as you have said, it is not used for righteousness, but to get to know Jesus. But, never forget the reason why you do it, to get to know God and His will through His Law. And last but not least, never forget that it can never give justification like Jesus, only death to all who attempts pleasing God through deeds of the flesh. But, I have a hunch that you knew that already :)

Be pleasing to the Lord and let not that which you allow be a burden upon someone else.
I believe when one begins on the premise that the Torah laws and commandments are Jewish, they have already started out on the wrong premise.

Those who followed Moses out of Egypt where all 12 tribes and Exo 12:38 And a mixed multitude went up also with them; and flocks, and herds, even very much cattle.

Prior to the freeing of the Israelites from bondage, we see in Genesis when Jacob (now called Israel) blessed Joseph's two sons, Manasseh and Ephraim.

We read Gen 48:17 And when Joseph saw that his father laid his right hand upon the head of Ephraim, it displeased him: and he held up his father's hand, to remove it from Ephraim's head unto Manasseh's head.
Gen 48:18 And Joseph said unto his father, Not so, my father: for this is the firstborn; put thy right hand upon his head.
Gen 48:19 And his father refused, and said, I know it, my son, I know it: he also shall become a people, and he also shall be great: but truly his younger brother shall be greater than he, and his (Ephraim) seed shall become a multitude of nations.
Gen 48:20 And he blessed them that day, saying, In thee shall Israel bless, saying, God make thee as Ephraim and as Manasseh: and he set Ephraim before Manasseh.

multitude of nations = fulness of Gentiles

Let me show you through the Strong's Hebrew Words.

multitude [SUP]H4393[/SUP] = FULNESS
of nations. [SUP]H1471[/SUP] = GENTILES

H4393 = H4393
מלו מלוא מלא
melô' melô' melô
mel-o', mel-o', mel-o'
From H4390; fulness (literally or figuratively): - X all along, X all that is (there-) in, fill, (X that whereof . . . was) full, fulness, [hand-] full, multitude.

H1471
גּי גּוי
gôy gôy
go'ee, go'-ee
Apparently from the same root as H1465 (in the sense of massing); a foreign nation; hence a Gentile; also (figuratively) a troop of animals, or a flight of locusts: - Gentile, heathen, nation, people.

Got it? multitude of nations is the same as fulness of the Gentiles.

Does this remind you of what Paul spoke in Romans? It should.

Rom 11:25 For I would not, brethren, that ye should be ignorant of this mystery, lest ye should be wise in your own conceits; that blindness in part is happened to Israel, until the fulness of the Gentiles be come in.

Ok, hold these two verses in mind, as we move on to the division of the Kingdom of Israel.

Long story shortened. All 12 tribes and a mixed multitude of non-Israelites are freed from Egypt with Moses and Aaron leading them. They camp at 42 places in the wilderness. They are all 12 tribes plus the non-Israelites given one law for all. OK, so they are living a theocratic culture. After 40 years, and the first generation has died off, with the exception of Joshua and Caleb, the Israelites cross over (Hebrew means crossed over) to the Promised Land.

Now they cry out they want a King to lead them. God appoints Saul from the tribe of Benjamin to be their king. Saul fails miserably and David is appointed to replace Saul. After David, his son Solomon becomes king. All three of these kings ruled all 13 tribes and any foreigners who joined up under the God of Israel and lived as they did.

Now, Solomon sinned and practiced pagan worship with some of his too many wives. So God ripped the kingdom from Solomon and gave his servant Jeroboam received 10 tribes and his son Rehoboam recieved two tribes...Judah and Benjamin and 1/2 of the Levites followed him.

Fast forward, through multiple good kings and bad kings. Good kings followed Torah and bad kings kept pagan in.

Around 740 BC, the Assyrians took the House of Israel (ten tribes) into captivity. These people were dispursed and never to return back to the land or to One single Kingdom of all the tribes. Before being dispersed they were known as the House of Israel and Ephraim. (Ephraim being the leader of all of them). Ephraim was given a blessing by grandfather Jacob/Israel that he would be a multitude of nations.

Around 350 BC, the Babylonians took the HOuse of Judah (2 1/2 tribes) into captivity. After 70 years, they were allowed to return to Jerusalem.

God ends up divorcing the House of Israel/Ephraim, only with the intentions of bringing them back to the land in the end of days. The House of Israel/Ephraim have forgotten their heritage and consider themselves to be Gentiles (without the God of Israel).

Now by law, the divorced wife cannot remarry as long as her husband is alive.) Thus, the mystery of the ages...Jesus, God with us in the flesh. Yeshua takes our past sins out of the way and wipes our slate clean. We obey baptism and in doing so symbollically show we also died with Christ and are raised up to a new life in Christ. We are His bride.

So Jeremiah and Hebrew quote same scripture.

Jer 31:10 Hear the word of the LORD, O ye nations, and declare it in the isles afar off, and say, He that scattered Israel will gather him, and keep him, as a shepherd doth his flock.
Jer 31:11 For the LORD hath redeemed Jacob, and ransomed him from the hand of him that was stronger than he.

Jer 31:33 But this shall be the covenant that I will make with the house of Israel; After those days, saith the LORD, I will put my law in their inward parts, and write it in their hearts; and will be their God, and they shall be my people.

eb 8:8 For finding fault with them, he saith, Behold, the days come, saith the Lord, when I will make a new covenant with the house of Israel and with the house of Judah:
Heb 8:9 Not according to the covenant that I made with their fathers in the day when I took them by the hand to lead them out of the land of Egypt; because they continued not in my covenant, and I regarded them not, saith the Lord.
Heb 8:10 For this is the covenant that I will make with the house of Israel after those days, saith the Lord; I will put my laws into their mind, and write them in their hearts: and I will be to them a God, and they shall be to me a people:

When Jesus spoke saying Mat 15:24 But he answered and said, I am not sent but unto the lost sheep of the house of Israel.

Who are these lost sheep of the House of Israel? Why now, that would be the gentiles who have not practiced Torah for many generations over 700 years. Technically they are still of the House of Israel, they just don't know what God knows.

So Paul's commission to spread the gospel to the gentiles has a very special message if looked at in the right light. Paul, who knew by memory all of the Torah and Tanakh, studied under the finest teacher, was the one called to explain who they rebelled, God divorced them, they were taken into captivity and now they have Paul saying basically, the mystery is God divorced you for your spiritual adultery (do pagan things) and God wants to remarry you. Problem is His very own law prohibits a woman to remarry again if her first husband is still alive.

So Jesus came as Immanuel, God with us, grew up, was perfect and sinles and untouched. He qualified to take the kingdom out of Satans' hand and return to God one nation of the two nations, rejoined.

zzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzz Good nitght.
 

Grandpa

Senior Member
Jun 24, 2011
11,551
3,190
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#66
You can't really know something without knowing its contrast. You can't know light unless you have known dark. etc...

You can't know the blessing until you have turned away from the curse. You have no power in yourself to turn from the curse. You must believe in the Lord Jesus Christ and His Power to Save you and show you and teach you.

Without the NT and His Grace you are condemned. In Christ Jesus there is no condemnation.

Acts 15:5,10
[SUP]5[/SUP]But there rose up certain of the sect of the Pharisees which believed, saying, That it was needful to circumcise them, and to command them to keep the law of Moses.
[SUP]10 [/SUP]Now therefore why tempt ye God, to put a yoke upon the neck of the disciples, which neither our fathers nor we were able to bear?

Now contrast...

Matthew 11:28-30
[SUP]28 [/SUP]Come unto me, all ye that labour and are heavy laden, and I will give you rest.
[SUP]29 [/SUP]Take my yoke upon you, and learn of me; for I am meek and lowly in heart: and ye shall find rest unto your souls.
[SUP]30 [/SUP]For my yoke is easy, and my burden is light.
 
Dec 29, 2013
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#67
And by the way...

There are no christians who are "NT-only". That is a straw man you are creating to disparage true believers.
danschance, consider as to why Jesus said, "Man shall not live...but by every word that proceedeth out of the mouth of God" (Matt. 4:4), and why Timothy was told, "All scripture is profitable for doctrine, reproof, for correction, for instruction in righteousness...(2 Tim. 3:16). Please reconsider your grace only antinomian type permissiveness, and read, in Matt. 7:21-23, of Jesus warning against it.
 

p_rehbein

Senior Member
Sep 4, 2013
30,323
6,617
113
#68
danschance, consider as to why Jesus said, "Man shall not live...but by every word that proceedeth out of the mouth of God" (Matt. 4:4), and why Timothy was told, "All scripture is profitable for doctrine, reproof, for correction, for instruction in righteousness...(2 Tim. 3:16). Please reconsider your grace only antinomian type permissiveness, and read, in Matt. 7:21-23, of Jesus warning against it.
your comment is quite confusing............danschance is acknowledging the value of the WHOLE WORD OF GOD.......

and, FYI, the scriptures Paul was speaking of to Timothy are the Scriptures of the Old Testament......there was no New Testament at that time.........it had not yet been compiled into one Book/Collection as the New Testament.

Does not mean the New Testament is not ALSO "profitable for........." this passage of Scripture reveals that the New Testament was surely Holy Spirit inspired, for God SURELY KNEW the 4 Gospels, Acts, the numerous Epistles and Revelation would become the New Testament............AND PROFITABLE FOR..........

[edited to say]

However, WE THE CHURCH TODAY, are under the New Covenant...........and that is GRACE! Those who dispute that, dispute the Gospel of Jesus Christ.........His birth, crucifixion, and resurrection...........in my opinion.
 

WomanLovesTX

Senior Member
Jan 1, 2010
1,390
38
0
#69
QUOTE:

Mainstream Christian believers insists "Jesus" preached the Gospel - the Good News about the Messiah's death, burial, and resurrection - which is all Christians tend to focus on. But Scripture, read in context, reveals He did NOT preach those things at all; rather, He preached the Kingdom of YHWH (Yahweh)!

END QUOTE.......

So, you are saying that Jesus NEVER spoke of the need for Him to be crucified? Is that right?

....and, you do understand that HE IS the KINGDOM?.......
No, I am not saying that Jesus NEVER spoke of His death. What I am saying is that most of Jesus' gospel from His own mouth was not about Himself, but the Kingdom of God/Heaven.

Mat 20:17 And Jesus going up to Jerusalem took the twelve disciples apart in the way, and said unto them,
Mat 20:18 Behold, we go up to Jerusalem; and the Son of man shall be betrayed unto the chief priests and unto the scribes, and they shall condemn him to death,
Mat 20:19 And shall deliver him to the Gentiles to mock, and to scourge, and to crucify him: and the third day he shall rise again.

Mat 26:38 Then saith he unto them, My soul is exceeding sorrowful, even unto death: tarry ye here, and watch with me.
Mat 26:39 And he went a little further, and fell on his face, and prayed, saying, O my Father, if it be possible, let this cup pass from me: nevertheless not as I will, but as thou wilt.

Mat 26:59 Now the chief priests, and elders, and all the council, sought false witness against Jesus, to put him to death;
Mat 26:60 But found none: yea, though many false witnesses came, yet found they none. At the last came two false witnesses,
Mat 26:61 And said, This fellow said, I am able to destroy the temple of God, and to build it in three days.

Mat 27:1 When the morning was come, all the chief priests and elders of the people took counsel against Jesus to put him to death:

Mat 27:31 And after that they had mocked him, they took the robe off from him, and put his own raiment on him, and led him away to crucify him.

Luk 18:31 Then he took unto him the twelve, and said unto them, Behold, we go up to Jerusalem, and all things that are written by the prophets concerning the Son of man shall be accomplished.
Luk 18:32 For he shall be delivered unto the Gentiles, and shall be mocked, and spitefully entreated, and spitted on:
Luk 18:33 And they shall scourge him, and put him to death: and the third day he shall rise again.
Luk 18:34 And they understood none of these things: and this saying was hid from them, neither knew they the things which were spoken.

However, Jesus' teaching and preaching the gospel of the Kingdom of God/Heaven has over 150 verses in the New Testament.

What I am saying is that Jesus' gospel is not about Him and His death, burial and resurrection. Jesus' death, burial and resurrection are a must to understand, but we are not to leave off Jesus' Gospel of the Kingdom.

The two go hand in hand. Jesus' came proclaiming that He would be the one ushering in the Kingdom of God and would reunite the two kingdoms....House of Israel/Ephraim and House of Judah, just as Jeremiah 31 and Hebrews 8 regarding the New Covenant.

If Mainstream Christians do not see themselves as part of the New undivided Kingdom with Jesus as the King and believers/saints serving as priests, then they are missing out on the fuller and more mature understanding of the Whole Bible.

Understanding the scriptures is very much like a large jigsaw puzzle. God has not placed all the pieces to our understanding in one easy sequential read. The scriptures are precious nuggets, and the more we study, the more clear the picture becomes.

So, again I say, NT-only, Grace-only theology is off the mark.

The mark represents a target.

What Do We Mean by the Term "Torah?"The Hebrew word, torah (תורה), is derived from a root that was used in the realm of archery, yareh (ירה). Yareh means to shoot an arrow in order to hit a mark. The mark or target, of course, was the object at which the archer was aiming. Consequently, torah, one of the nouns derived from this root, is, therefore, the arrow aimed at the mark, The target is the truth about God and how one relates to Him. The torah is, therefore, in the strict sense instruction designed to teach us the truth about God. Torah means direction,teaching, instruction,or doctrine.We should note that the usual translation of this word as law is not quite accurate.[SUP][1][/SUP] One of the most common ways that torah (תורה) is rendered in the Septuagint (LXX)[SUP][2][/SUP] is by using the word nomosv, nomo?. The Greek word nomos, however, has a variety of uses, among which, to be sure, is law, but it is certainly not limited to law. Following the precedent set by the LXX, the Newer Covenant Scriptures consistently render the Hebrew torah by the term nomos. This is where things begin to become confusing. Sometimes, in the Newer Covenant Scriptures, it is appropriate to translate nomos as law. However, other times it is more appropriate to render it as God's teaching/instruction, or simply to transliterate the term as Torah. The context of the word is always the final determiner of its meaning.There are at least two other related Hebrew words derived from the same root as torah. The first is the word for teacher, moreh (מורה). A moreh is one who imparts instruction to his/her students. The second important word is parent, horeh (הורה). This indicates to us that one of the primary roles for a parent is to teach and instruct the child.
 

WomanLovesTX

Senior Member
Jan 1, 2010
1,390
38
0
#70
QUOTE:

Mainstream Christian believers insists "Jesus" preached the Gospel - the Good News about the Messiah's death, burial, and resurrection - which is all Christians tend to focus on. But Scripture, read in context, reveals He did NOT preach those things at all; rather, He preached the Kingdom of YHWH (Yahweh)!

END QUOTE.......

So, you are saying that Jesus NEVER spoke of the need for Him to be crucified? Is that right?

....and, you do understand that HE IS the KINGDOM?.......
No, He is the King of the Kingdom to come. Every Kingdom has a (1) Ruler, (2) Subjects, (3) Land and (4) Laws.

The prophecies show that all of these elements will once again be literal with Jesus as the King of this coming Kingdom.
 

iamsoandso

Senior Member
Oct 6, 2011
7,874
1,571
113
#71
You can't really know something without knowing its contrast. You can't know light unless you have known dark. etc...

You can't know the blessing until you have turned away from the curse. You have no power in yourself to turn from the curse. You must believe in the Lord Jesus Christ and His Power to Save you and show you and teach you.

Without the NT and His Grace you are condemned. In Christ Jesus there is no condemnation.

Acts 15:5,10
[SUP]5[/SUP]But there rose up certain of the sect of the Pharisees which believed, saying, That it was needful to circumcise them, and to command them to keep the law of Moses.
[SUP]10 [/SUP]Now therefore why tempt ye God, to put a yoke upon the neck of the disciples, which neither our fathers nor we were able to bear?

Now contrast...

Matthew 11:28-30
[SUP]28 [/SUP]Come unto me, all ye that labour and are heavy laden, and I will give you rest.
[SUP]29 [/SUP]Take my yoke upon you, and learn of me; for I am meek and lowly in heart: and ye shall find rest unto your souls.
[SUP]30 [/SUP]For my yoke is easy, and my burden is light.
yes this discussion they were having in acts 15 has always stuck in my mind. that is if we put our selves in there shoes,say a 50 year old man in ad50 who lived in Spain for instance. Now he is receiving the gospel by either one of the apostles or by reading one of the gospels as they were circulated and he then believes in Christ.

now this man is under the authority of then(Rome) and he believes in Christ but does not have the ability to go to Jerusalem for any of the feast. now whoever was his master(whether government or if he was a slave) would have to give him permission. so if it were required by the gospel to fulfill any of the laws/ordinances physically then he,like the largest population of the newly converted Christians would not be able to live up to this(i think the apostles understood that in acts 15),,

So this would apply to every new convert who is(gentile,by race) that is Paul and Barnabas are ordained to preach the gospel/mystery that grace was now offered unto them. now if he is 50 in ad50 and he was born in where now is Spain,England,Germany ect. and had grown up being taught a pagan religion then what did they know about the "law of Moses"?,that is they (if it were required to fulfill the laws of ordinances given to the Jews),have to begin at the point of being converted and first read the Hebrew bible,then figure out how to preform the requirements then begin to "do them"which would take the rest of his life.

that is i don't think mankind today(2014) are bearing in mind that the law that was given through Moses took the Jews their entire lifetime to understand and even then there were some who believed in a Resurrection,some who didn't and many other divisions so as the new converts went to try to learn they wouldn't have know who was correct or not.

now days we have many discussions on different threads about the old law verses the new law and the common anwser is "thats because you do not fully understand the old covenant/law",,,,but we should bare in mind that the greeks were not raised "studding the law of the Jews" and many many of them were converted to Christ when they were worshiping greek gods,that is they saw the error of it and believed on Jesus.
 
Oct 31, 2011
8,200
182
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#72
=cfultz3;
I am giving ear to you and others, maybe it is time to stop and listen to people and see what they are saying. Not one will say we can be lawless. Ask them and I bet every time they answer, it will be according to God moral Law. Ask them.....
If you do not believe in being lawless, then why do you have paragraph after paragraph trashing the law? You bring up things of God that are good things, and use the good things to say they trash the law. The law has nothing to do with "bondage of fear", that bondage is living without Christ. "Light shine in darkness", and I don't see how God's light that shines in darkness is part of law trashing. "fulfilled by love" and yes, the law is all about love. "Follow Jesus", and yes, Jesus said if you love me you will obey. You bring up that Paul got permission to go to gentiles without needing to preach the rituals. So what does that have to do with the law?

Then you end with that people say to follow law! After you spend all that time trashing law.
 
C

Crazylove

Guest
#73
Matthew 5:17-18

" Do not think that I came to abolish the Law or the Prophets; I did not come to abolish but to fulfill. For truly I say to you, until heaven and earth pass away, not the smallest letter or stroke shall pass from the Law until all is accomplished.…"
 
S

Spokenpassage

Guest
#74
What the law couldn't do, the Spirit did. Change us.

The law is good, but it didn't help change the rebellious heart of man. That's why the Spirit wrote the law in our hearts, which is the cure for our rebellious ways, connected to the death of Christ.

That's grace :)
 
Oct 31, 2011
8,200
182
0
#75
What the law couldn't do, the Spirit did. Change us.

The law is good, but it didn't help change the rebellious heart of man. That's why the Spirit wrote the law in our hearts, which is the cure for our rebellious ways, connected to the death of Christ.

That's grace :)
This is an example of listening to scripture without an "only". It shows the work of the spirit, how necessary it is without any "only" to it. It shows the law written in our hearts, no "only" about it but necessary. Now, without the rebellious ways we can go to the law, and again no "only".

The necessity of the resurrection is the only "only" there is.
 
C

cfultz3

Guest
#76
If you do not believe in being lawless, then why do you have paragraph after paragraph trashing the law?
I do not consider saying that our righteousness is not found by obedience to the Law as me trashing it. I have, however, said that the Christian follows that same Lawgiver who gave the Law in the first place. I have also said that we are to obey our Lawgiver on the path He leads on. I have said that He gives the same Law to a Christian as He did when He originally spoke it. Yet, all you seen was me trashing the written Law and not once me pointing at the Lawgiver Himself. It hurts my heart to see that all the while I was pointing to God as our Lawgiver that you only saw me as trashing His will. I can only conclude that all my words I spoke concerning following the Lawgiver and not the Law for our righteousness was in vain. Is it true that all you seen was me trashing the Law?

You bring up things of God that are good things, and use the good things to say they trash the law. The law has nothing to do with "bondage of fear", that bondage is living without Christ. "Light shine in darkness", and I don't see how God's light that shines in darkness is part of law trashing. "fulfilled by love" and yes, the law is all about love. "Follow Jesus", and yes, Jesus said if you love me you will obey. You bring up that Paul got permission to go to gentiles without needing to preach the rituals. So what does that have to do with the law?

Then you end with that people say to follow law! After you spend all that time trashing law.
So it is true, all you seen was me trashing the written Law and not me pointing to the Lawgiver. Indeed, saddened......
 
C

cfultz3

Guest
#77
I believe when one begins on the premise that the Torah laws and commandments are Jewish, they have already started out on the wrong premise.

Those who followed Moses out of Egypt where all 12 tribes and Exo 12:38 And a mixed multitude went up also with them; and flocks, and herds, even very much cattle.

Prior to the freeing of the Israelites from bondage, we see in Genesis when Jacob (now called Israel) blessed Joseph's two sons, Manasseh and Ephraim.

We read Gen 48:17 And when Joseph saw that his father laid his right hand upon the head of Ephraim, it displeased him: and he held up his father's hand, to remove it from Ephraim's head unto Manasseh's head.
Gen 48:18 And Joseph said unto his father, Not so, my father: for this is the firstborn; put thy right hand upon his head.
Gen 48:19 And his father refused, and said, I know it, my son, I know it: he also shall become a people, and he also shall be great: but truly his younger brother shall be greater than he, and his (Ephraim) seed shall become a multitude of nations.
Gen 48:20 And he blessed them that day, saying, In thee shall Israel bless, saying, God make thee as Ephraim and as Manasseh: and he set Ephraim before Manasseh.

multitude of nations = fulness of Gentiles

Let me show you through the Strong's Hebrew Words.

multitude [SUP]H4393[/SUP] = FULNESS
of nations. [SUP]H1471[/SUP] = GENTILES

H4393 = H4393
מלו מלוא מלא
melô' melô' melô
mel-o', mel-o', mel-o'
From H4390; fulness (literally or figuratively): - X all along, X all that is (there-) in, fill, (X that whereof . . . was) full, fulness, [hand-] full, multitude.

H1471
גּי גּוי
gôy gôy
go'ee, go'-ee
Apparently from the same root as H1465 (in the sense of massing); a foreign nation; hence a Gentile; also (figuratively) a troop of animals, or a flight of locusts: - Gentile, heathen, nation, people.

Got it? multitude of nations is the same as fulness of the Gentiles.

Does this remind you of what Paul spoke in Romans? It should.

Rom 11:25 For I would not, brethren, that ye should be ignorant of this mystery, lest ye should be wise in your own conceits; that blindness in part is happened to Israel, until the fulness of the Gentiles be come in.

Ok, hold these two verses in mind, as we move on to the division of the Kingdom of Israel.

Long story shortened. All 12 tribes and a mixed multitude of non-Israelites are freed from Egypt with Moses and Aaron leading them. They camp at 42 places in the wilderness. They are all 12 tribes plus the non-Israelites given one law for all. OK, so they are living a theocratic culture. After 40 years, and the first generation has died off, with the exception of Joshua and Caleb, the Israelites cross over (Hebrew means crossed over) to the Promised Land.

Now they cry out they want a King to lead them. God appoints Saul from the tribe of Benjamin to be their king. Saul fails miserably and David is appointed to replace Saul. After David, his son Solomon becomes king. All three of these kings ruled all 13 tribes and any foreigners who joined up under the God of Israel and lived as they did.

Now, Solomon sinned and practiced pagan worship with some of his too many wives. So God ripped the kingdom from Solomon and gave his servant Jeroboam received 10 tribes and his son Rehoboam recieved two tribes...Judah and Benjamin and 1/2 of the Levites followed him.

Fast forward, through multiple good kings and bad kings. Good kings followed Torah and bad kings kept pagan in.

Around 740 BC, the Assyrians took the House of Israel (ten tribes) into captivity. These people were dispursed and never to return back to the land or to One single Kingdom of all the tribes. Before being dispersed they were known as the House of Israel and Ephraim. (Ephraim being the leader of all of them). Ephraim was given a blessing by grandfather Jacob/Israel that he would be a multitude of nations.

Around 350 BC, the Babylonians took the HOuse of Judah (2 1/2 tribes) into captivity. After 70 years, they were allowed to return to Jerusalem.

God ends up divorcing the House of Israel/Ephraim, only with the intentions of bringing them back to the land in the end of days. The House of Israel/Ephraim have forgotten their heritage and consider themselves to be Gentiles (without the God of Israel).

Now by law, the divorced wife cannot remarry as long as her husband is alive.) Thus, the mystery of the ages...Jesus, God with us in the flesh. Yeshua takes our past sins out of the way and wipes our slate clean. We obey baptism and in doing so symbollically show we also died with Christ and are raised up to a new life in Christ. We are His bride.

So Jeremiah and Hebrew quote same scripture.

Jer 31:10 Hear the word of the LORD, O ye nations, and declare it in the isles afar off, and say, He that scattered Israel will gather him, and keep him, as a shepherd doth his flock.
Jer 31:11 For the LORD hath redeemed Jacob, and ransomed him from the hand of him that was stronger than he.

Jer 31:33 But this shall be the covenant that I will make with the house of Israel; After those days, saith the LORD, I will put my law in their inward parts, and write it in their hearts; and will be their God, and they shall be my people.

eb 8:8 For finding fault with them, he saith, Behold, the days come, saith the Lord, when I will make a new covenant with the house of Israel and with the house of Judah:
Heb 8:9 Not according to the covenant that I made with their fathers in the day when I took them by the hand to lead them out of the land of Egypt; because they continued not in my covenant, and I regarded them not, saith the Lord.
Heb 8:10 For this is the covenant that I will make with the house of Israel after those days, saith the Lord; I will put my laws into their mind, and write them in their hearts: and I will be to them a God, and they shall be to me a people:

When Jesus spoke saying Mat 15:24 But he answered and said, I am not sent but unto the lost sheep of the house of Israel.

Who are these lost sheep of the House of Israel? Why now, that would be the gentiles who have not practiced Torah for many generations over 700 years. Technically they are still of the House of Israel, they just don't know what God knows.

So Paul's commission to spread the gospel to the gentiles has a very special message if looked at in the right light. Paul, who knew by memory all of the Torah and Tanakh, studied under the finest teacher, was the one called to explain who they rebelled, God divorced them, they were taken into captivity and now they have Paul saying basically, the mystery is God divorced you for your spiritual adultery (do pagan things) and God wants to remarry you. Problem is His very own law prohibits a woman to remarry again if her first husband is still alive.

So Jesus came as Immanuel, God with us, grew up, was perfect and sinles and untouched. He qualified to take the kingdom out of Satans' hand and return to God one nation of the two nations, rejoined.

zzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzz Good nitght.
Are you saying that those who married Christ (believe in Him) are really Israelites who have lost their identities throughout the ages and call themselves Gentiles? That is, the Gentiles who believe in Him are really the lost Israelites? And since these Gentiles are really Israelites then they are still obligated to keep the Torah?
 
C

cfultz3

Guest
#78
If you do not believe in being lawless, then why do you have paragraph after paragraph trashing the law? You bring up things of God that are good things, and use the good things to say they trash the law. The law has nothing to do with "bondage of fear", that bondage is living without Christ. "Light shine in darkness", and I don't see how God's light that shines in darkness is part of law trashing. "fulfilled by love" and yes, the law is all about love. "Follow Jesus", and yes, Jesus said if you love me you will obey. You bring up that Paul got permission to go to gentiles without needing to preach the rituals. So what does that have to do with the law?

Then you end with that people say to follow law! After you spend all that time trashing law.
I will try my best to not give the impression that I trash the Law. If I do, allow me to apologize in advance.

If you were to ask me if it is okay to steal, I would say, "No. Because it is against God's known will". By me making this statement, I am not trashing God's will which was revealed through moral Law. Allow me to repeat, I honor God's Law (written will) by saying that it is sinful (wrong deed done against God) to steal because God has said it was. I hope I have made myself clean on this. If I have not, then let me say again: God's moral Laws ARE TO BE obeyed. We CANNOT live lawlessly. Okay?

In our conversation I have been saying that we do not obey the Law for our righteousness, but we are to obey the Lawgiver Himself. If we obey the Lawgiver, THEN the One who is the Lawgiver must by that word's very definition: give out Law to be obeyed. If, therefore, there is Law from the Lawgiver Himself, and if it has been said that He gives out the same moral Law which He stated in the Old Testament, then it can ONLY be concluded that no one is trashing the Law which the Lawgiver GIVES and HAS GIVEN, but instead, pointing at the very GOD Himself who SPOKE those Laws. I am sorry, but this is as clear as I can get: Pointing at the Lawgiver is better than point at the Law itself. How so? One is done spiritually, while the other is done physically.

I want to continue, but I want to make sure it is understood that I do not trash God's written will we know as the Law. Are we clear now?
 
Jan 12, 2014
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#79
This is actually very straightforward. The Law to God's Plan was added because of transgressions. It was temporary and has many purposes. What the Law can not do, for anyone, at anytime from the time it given until now is,

Save you
Make you righteous in God's sight
Add to your righeousnesss

What the Law can do is

Show God's eternal standard for man, that he not fall short
Prove that man can not fall short
Provide instruction concerning the historical people Israel, who also fell short
Make it impossible for anyone to escape the reality that they fall short.
Prove that in breaking one commandment, a man has broken them all

The Law was not given to impart righteousness, the Bible is clear on this. I was given to make sin known, that sin is exceedingly sinful, and that no one will be justified by the Law in God's sight

To lead one in their terror and honest despair in repentance to cry out that they know they do not measure up to this standard.

The Law, in all it's detail contained shadows of the One who would come according to the Promise, Jesus Christ the promise.
I saw in another writing here which tries to blend the Law, which was added because of transgressions, with the New Covenant. This is not in any way a reflection of nor a representation of the Love of God which always looked to and ivolved the redeemer. The redeemer was always intended to free the people from their free of death and bondage to sin.

This redeemer is a Person, this Person is god Himself, and when you try to blend the Law which was added to show how exceedingly sinful we are to the promise which Jesus Christ fulfilled, you have set God against His Own promise, setting the Father against His Son, who was always the purpose and Plan of God. This may be due to ignorance, though I doubt this is so, since one must have a basic knowledge of the Gospel and the Law before setting out to to claim The Father ever intended that the children remain shut up under sin, without hope. That is why the Law was given. No one can understand what a great salvation we have, provided by God Himself who gave His only Son if they say and teach they are in any way shape of form made or seen to be righteous in His sight according to the LAW he gave that ONLY His own Son could fulfill. Paul has reserved, and Moses made known there is a curse for those who would dare to try to come to God through any mediator except God Himself who made a way by dying on a Cross according to the Law.
 
Jan 12, 2014
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#80
We do not trash the Law. We see the Law is all it's glory and as the highest bar that God has set for man. God Himself not only said no one reaches that that standard, He sent His only Son to measure up to that standard, and to bear the curses of not measuring up to that standard. Anyone who claims they are righteous in any way according to the Law God gave to show how unrighteous man is, and especially after He gave His Son, then gave the Spirit to those who would BELIEVE