Why Wasn't A Law Given By Which One Could Be Righteous?

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posthuman

Senior Member
Jul 31, 2013
37,988
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#61
You are a human, God is God. Could you create as God does? And you are now questioning Him!!
i'm not 'questioning God' i'm asking my family about their understanding of Him and His works.
((see OP)) --


But now, by dying to what once bound us, we have been released from the law
so that we serve in the new way of the Spirit, and not in the old way of the written code.
(Romans 7:6)
there is a new way of the Spirit and there is an old way of the written code. seems to me then, an obvious question, why was the old way first given, if the new way far exceeds it in glory? ((re: 2 Corinthians 3:7-11))
essentially i am asking why a day consists first of darkness and secondly, of light? why not all light - as it will be when He restores all things ((e.g. Revelation 22:5))?
 

posthuman

Senior Member
Jul 31, 2013
37,988
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#62
If the old testament was physical and not spiritual then there would be no salvation for any of the people of the old testament.
welcome to Galatians 3 --- although it does not mean no one was saved. ;)
 

posthuman

Senior Member
Jul 31, 2013
37,988
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#63
“He saith unto them, But whom say ye that I am? And Simon Peter answered and said, Thou art the Christ, the Son of the living God. And Jesus answered and said unto him, Blessed art thou, Simon Bar-jona: for flesh and blood hath not revealed it unto thee, but my Father which is in heaven.” Matthew 16:15–17 (KJV 1900)
thanks Dave, that hadn't come to my mind, :)

so we have the Son revealing the Father, from the other verses i supplied, and here we also have the Father revealing the Son
how blessed is Peter!
another proof Christ is God heh; an irreducible complexity
 

posthuman

Senior Member
Jul 31, 2013
37,988
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#64
Matt. 27: 51 At that moment the curtain of the temple was torn in two from top to bottom. The earth shook, the rocks split 52 and the tombs broke open. The bodies of many holy people who had died were raised to life. 53 They came out of the tombs after Jesus’ resurrection and went into the holy city and appeared to many people.

why create a veil designed to be torn?

God knows all things at all times. when He instructed Moses regarding the construction of the veil, He of course knew that it would be removed. when He made the covenant with the Israelites at Horeb, He knew He would make a new one not like the first. doesn't that make you wonder what His purpose is in these things?
time is a created thing - He is outside of it. yet He places us in it, and creates things meant only to exist within it. how unsearchable these things are!! :love:
 

Blik

Senior Member
Dec 6, 2016
7,312
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#65
why create a veil designed to be torn?

God knows all things at all times. when He instructed Moses regarding the construction of the veil, He of course knew that it would be removed. when He made the covenant with the Israelites at Horeb, He knew He would make a new one not like the first. doesn't that make you wonder what His purpose is in these things?
time is a created thing - He is outside of it. yet He places us in it, and creates things meant only to exist within it. how unsearchable these things are!! :love:
Because we are carnal and God is spiritual, God speaks to of of spiritual things with fleshly things of spiritual. Don't you think that man had no idea why they were sacrificing animals for forgiveness? It was a symbol of Christ, and how could they understand Christ until he came and was crucified. They had a veil over their eyes. When Christ was crucified the veil split and man could learn who the sacrifice of blood was necessary.
 

Blik

Senior Member
Dec 6, 2016
7,312
2,428
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#66
i'm not 'questioning God' i'm asking my family about their understanding of Him and His works.
((see OP)) --


But now, by dying to what once bound us, we have been released from the law
so that we serve in the new way of the Spirit, and not in the old way of the written code.
(Romans 7:6)
there is a new way of the Spirit and there is an old way of the written code. seems to me then, an obvious question, why was the old way first given, if the new way far exceeds it in glory? ((re: 2 Corinthians 3:7-11))
essentially i am asking why a day consists first of darkness and secondly, of light? why not all light - as it will be when He restores all things ((e.g. Revelation 22:5))?
If Christ was born to Adam and Eve and was crucified then, do you think that during the 4,000 years until Christ came as a man that people would have understood what Christ did? We don't know if they could or couldn't, but evidently God knew. As it was the people who lived until the flood almost to a man lost all knowledge of God. We need what Abraham and Moses experienced to comprehend spiritual
 

posthuman

Senior Member
Jul 31, 2013
37,988
13,627
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#67
If Christ was born to Adam and Eve and was crucified then, do you think that during the 4,000 years until Christ came as a man that people would have understood what Christ did?
why would time make a difference in whose eyes are open to see and whose are not? at the end it will be as the days of Noah, and of Lot.
 

oyster67

Senior Member
May 24, 2014
11,887
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#68
essentially i am asking why a day consists first of darkness and secondly, of light? why not all light - as it will be when He restores all things ((e.g. Revelation 22:5))?
If there were no darkness, then we could not choose light.
 

oyster67

Senior Member
May 24, 2014
11,887
8,705
113
#69
why would time make a difference in whose eyes are open to see and whose are not? at the end it will be as the days of Noah, and of Lot.
Your questions run too deep for such a simple man as I:)
 
Jan 12, 2019
7,497
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#71
If Christ was born to Adam and Eve and was crucified then, do you think that during the 4,000 years until Christ came as a man that people would have understood what Christ did? We don't know if they could or couldn't, but evidently God knew. As it was the people who lived until the flood almost to a man lost all knowledge of God. We need what Abraham and Moses experienced to comprehend spiritual
The doctrine I choose to hold about this question, "Why did God had to wait 4000 years, from Adam to the book of Malachi, for Jesus to come in the flesh?" is this:

It was a man—a physical human being—who had been given authority on the earth by God. When man allowed himself to be deceived and when he yielded his power to Satan, he became, in a sense, joint-heirs with the devil. Satan has to work through a human being. Man, through his physical body, gave Satan authority on this earth.

Therefore, it was necessary for a man with a physical body to take back that authority. God had to become man, to give Him the authority to execute judgment on the earth: “And hath given him authority to execute judgment also, because he is the Son of man” (John 5:27). God cannot break or change His word, so He was restricted to act within the word He had already spoken.

But why did it take 4,000 years? Here is the logic: When God created the first man, He said, “Let us make man in our image” (Gen. 1:26). He literally spoke Adam’s body into existence. At that time, He had the legal right to do that because He had not yet given authority over this earth to man.

However, once He had given that authority to man, He could not leave him out of the equation. The last Adam, Jesus, would still have to be spoken into existence by God, but He would have to speak through man. God was no longer in direct control, and a man would have to become the voice of His words. Psalm 115:16 explains—

The heaven, even the heavens, are the Lord’s: but the earth hath he given to the children of men.

That is a strong statement. In other words, everything outside of the earth belongs to God, but the earth He gave to the children of man. God literally placed restrictions on Himself through His own words. He had to work through people, and there were very few people sensitive enough to hear Him in their hearts and then prophesy what they heard.

God had to create the new Adam through words spoken by someone with a physical body. Galatians 4:4 says, “But when the fulness of the time was come, God sent forth his Son.” If you study that out, it means at the appropriate moment. Until then, all the prophetic utterances hadn’t been spoken. Jesus could not come onto the scene until everything that had to be said was said.
 

Grandpa

Senior Member
Jun 24, 2011
11,551
3,190
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#72
i'm not 'questioning God' i'm asking my family about their understanding of Him and His works.
((see OP)) --


But now, by dying to what once bound us, we have been released from the law
so that we serve in the new way of the Spirit, and not in the old way of the written code.
(Romans 7:6)
there is a new way of the Spirit and there is an old way of the written code. seems to me then, an obvious question, why was the old way first given, if the new way far exceeds it in glory? ((re: 2 Corinthians 3:7-11))
essentially i am asking why a day consists first of darkness and secondly, of light? why not all light - as it will be when He restores all things ((e.g. Revelation 22:5))?
Without darkness we wouldn't understand light.

Without sin we wouldn't understand Righteousness.

Without bad we wouldn't understand good.

Without struggle we wouldn't understand peace.

Without a curse we wouldn't understand blessing.



God WANTS us to know how Good He Is. God WANTS us to know His Blessing.
 

posthuman

Senior Member
Jul 31, 2013
37,988
13,627
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#73
@Whispered pointed out in another thread that the first set of tablets at Sinai were the work of God ((Exodus 32:16))

Moses broke these to pieces ((Exodus 32:19))

then there was judgement on the evil of the people ((rest of Exodus 32)) and Moses sought to make atonement for them - interestingly, by praying, not by offering the blood of bulls or goats, but asking for mercy & offering to take their curse upon himself ((Exodus 32:30-34))

then, God commands Moses to himself make tablets, upon which God will write again the covenant law ((Exodus 34:1-4))


so we have tablets made by God, broken, because of sin.
then we have tablets made by Moses given in their stead.
later, with the advent of Christ, we have '
the ministration of death engraved in letters on stone' ((2 Corinthians 3:7)) replaced with a new commandment, and a new covenant.


what is this telling us?
 
Feb 28, 2016
11,311
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#75
is it the Father who reveals the Son or the Son who reveals Himself, and the Father?
John 1:18, Luke 10:22, Matthew 11:27 . . ?
==============================================================
HELLO! great point POST...

The Father and The Son work' together' - they are like a TEAM, the Law and the Prophets bear witness
to Their Grace -
JOHN 6:44.
No man can come to Me, except The Father which has sent Me draw him: and I will raise him up at the last day.
 
Feb 28, 2016
11,311
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#76
i'm not 'questioning God' i'm asking my family about their understanding of Him and His works.
((see OP)) --


But now, by dying to what once bound us, we have been released from the law
so that we serve in the new way of the Spirit, and not in the old way of the written code.
(Romans 7:6)
there is a new way of the Spirit and there is an old way of the written code. seems to me then, an obvious question, why was the old way first given, if the new way far exceeds it in glory? ((re: 2 Corinthians 3:7-11))
essentially i am asking why a day consists first of darkness and secondly, of light? why not all light - as it will be when He restores all things ((e.g. Revelation 22:5))?
======================================================
Well Post,
"Joy comes in the morning"...
:):)
the obvious is that we can't survive without the 'dark', our sleep and rejuvenation time period -
JOHN 9:4.
I must work the works of Him that sent Me, while it is day: the night cometh, when no man can work.
on a different level there is the contrast aspect, one has to have opposites to understand and compare -
(light-dark=evil-good-sour-sweet=happy-sad=sin-righteousness)....................................................
 
S

SheepSheep

Guest
#77
"The Law" - the Torah, the books of Moses, the law of Moses, the Sinai Covenant, etc
i think we all know what this refers to. no, it's not just the 10 commandments. don't be silly. ((James 2:9-10))



we know that righteousness cannot be attained through the law, neither can life:
I do not set aside the grace of God; for if righteousness comes through the law, then Christ died in vain.
(Galatians 2:21)
Is the law then against the promises of God? Certainly not!
For if there had been a law given which could have given life, truly righteousness would have been by the law.
(Galatians 3:21)
a law was given, but it was not one through which righteousness could come, and not one that could give life.
this is puzzling - because the law itself says '
the one who does these things will live by them' ((Leviticus 18:5, Romans 10:5, Galatians 3:12)) - yet by these things, i.e. Torah, no one receives life ((Galatians 2:16, Romans 3:20, Galatians 3:11 etc)).
still, it was given by God, and it is perfect. it was given by God to a specific people at a specific time. ((for more info, read Exodus & Deuteronomy etc))
why? how is this perfect -- how is a law that cannot produce righteousness and cannot give life, the absolute perfect law to be given to this people at this time?


we know too, 'by the law is the knowledge of sin' ((Romans 3:20, 7:7-9 etc)) and 'the law was a schoolmaster' to bring people to Christ ((Galatians 3:24)). so we know some things about the purpose of the law. and we know, 'the letter kills but the Spirit gives life' ((2 Corinthians 3:6)) -- in fact He has made us ministers of a new covenant, 'built on better promises' ((Hebrews 8:6)) -- and the first is 'made obsolete' ((Hebrews 8:13)).

so here is my question ((yay! a question!)), phrased in the form of a few questions, but really it is all one question:

why wasn't the spiritual law given in the first place?
why a Torah of ordinances & statutes & commandments called a '
ministry of death' ((2 Corinthians 3:7)) to go before?
why a law which makes everyone who relies it, under a curse? ((Deuteronomy 27:26, Galatians 3:10))
why require the blood of bulls and goats when it can never take away sin?
why command physical circumcision if it means nothing, but only the circumcision done without human hands is effectual?
why did God give The Law which '
is not of faith' ((Galatians 3:12)) instead of giving faith?
why did grace & truth wait over a thousand years after Moses to come through Jesus Christ ((John 1:17))?
Does it state in the Bible that we are made righteous through Jesus?

2 Corinthians 5:21 For he hath made him to be sin for us, who knew no sin; that we might be made the righteousness of God in him.
Phillipians 3:9 And be found in him, not having mine own righteousness, which is of the law, but that which is through the faith of Christ, the righteousness which is of God by faith:
Romans 4:5 But to him that worketh not, but believeth on him that justifieth the ungodly, his faith is counted for righteousness.
Romans 8:4-6 That the righteousness of the law might be fulfilled in us, who walk not after the flesh, but after the Spirit.
Romans 10:4 For Christ is the end of the law for righteousness to every one that believeth.
Romans 3:21-31 22 Even the righteousness of God which is by faith of Jesus Christ unto all and upon all them that believe: for there is no difference: 24 Being justified freely by his grace through the redemption that is in Christ Jesus: 25 Whom God hath set forth to be a propitiation through faith in his blood, to declare his righteousness for the remission of sins that are past, through the forbearance of God; 26 To declare, I say, at this time his righteousness: that he might be just, and the justifier of him which believeth in Jesus. 28 Therefore, we conclude that a man is justified by faith without the deeds of the law.
 

posthuman

Senior Member
Jul 31, 2013
37,988
13,627
113
#78
Does it state in the Bible that we are made righteous through Jesus?

2 Corinthians 5:21 For he hath made him to be sin for us, who knew no sin; that we might be made the righteousness of God in him.
Phillipians 3:9 And be found in him, not having mine own righteousness, which is of the law, but that which is through the faith of Christ, the righteousness which is of God by faith:
Romans 4:5 But to him that worketh not, but believeth on him that justifieth the ungodly, his faith is counted for righteousness.
Romans 8:4-6 That the righteousness of the law might be fulfilled in us, who walk not after the flesh, but after the Spirit.
Romans 10:4 For Christ is the end of the law for righteousness to every one that believeth.
Romans 3:21-31 22 Even the righteousness of God which is by faith of Jesus Christ unto all and upon all them that believe: for there is no difference: 24 Being justified freely by his grace through the redemption that is in Christ Jesus: 25 Whom God hath set forth to be a propitiation through faith in his blood, to declare his righteousness for the remission of sins that are past, through the forbearance of God; 26 To declare, I say, at this time his righteousness: that he might be just, and the justifier of him which believeth in Jesus. 28 Therefore, we conclude that a man is justified by faith without the deeds of the law.
you put Romans 3:26 -- 'to declare.. at this time His righteousness'

in Romans 5:6 it's also said, 'at just the right time while we were still powerless, Christ died for the ungodly'

i wanted to ask & explore the question,
why '
at that time' -- what made the time that He came 'just the right time' ?
why wasn't the time of the Exodus '
the right time' ? or why not some other time before ?
if the righteousness God accepts is that attributed of faith, not '
one's own' which is of the law, why was the law given?

what is the law of the Sinai covenant? what is that covenant?
 

posthuman

Senior Member
Jul 31, 2013
37,988
13,627
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#79
what is the law of the Sinai covenant? what is that covenant?
surely this was given 'at just the right time' too -- what made that the right time, for this law?
what is it about the law of Moses that makes it perfect for when it was given and who it was declared to?
what attributes does it have, and did those people have, that put together, show it to be divinely appropriate for the day and the people?


((i think the answer to this is already posted in here, but let's draw it out and put it together))
 
E

eternally-gratefull

Guest
#80
surely this was given 'at just the right time' too -- what made that the right time, for this law?
what is it about the law of Moses that makes it perfect for when it was given and who it was declared to?
what attributes does it have, and did those people have, that put together, show it to be divinely appropriate for the day and the people?


((i think the answer to this is already posted in here, but let's draw it out and put it together))
God was establishing a nation, this nation would represent God on earth,

if he did it earlier, with no nation, I t would not have the same effect.

i think God was trying to make a point,

here is my nation of people doing what the world hates, yet see how blessed they are, this should draw people to God

sadly the nation rebelled and that was never established,