Why Wasn't A Law Given By Which One Could Be Righteous?

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JaumeJ

Senior Member
Jul 2, 2011
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#41
so why did He give these laws?
written in jots and tittles & engraved in stone
Jesus, Yseshua, explained to the Pharisees that if mercy is not applied along with faith and justice, the law is not gooe.

It is written in the OT that our Father gave us some statutes that were not to be followed, not good.

Either we are free of the law, or we are condemened. This is no exscuse to not learn the law according th our Grace Giving Lord. It is so that when we study the law, and know Jesus, Yeshua, we are freed of it...
 

JaumeJ

Senior Member
Jul 2, 2011
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#42
All scripture is deathe without the guidance of the Hly Spirit. This includes the Law, itself, however with the Spirit the law and the prophets point to Jesus, Yeshua.
 

Nehemiah6

Senior Member
Jul 18, 2017
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#43
Why Wasn't A Law Given By Which One Could Be Righteous?
The Bible says that it is the unrighteous who need laws.

In any event righteousness (God's perfection) can only be imputed by God, since no amount of obedience to His laws will bring about perfection. And God expects nothing less than perfection for anyone to enter Heaven.

Be ye therefore perfect, even as your Father which is in heaven is perfect. (Mt 5:48)

This also means that Christians are to do what is commanded in Titus 2:12: Teaching us that, denying ungodliness and worldly lusts, we should live soberly, righteously, and godly, in this present world.
 

JaumeJ

Senior Member
Jul 2, 2011
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#44
The work begun in each of us is work by our Father, not by us. We are expected to cooperate until He has completed our perfection, so read dthe Manual in the meantime and learn to do what is expected.

You will not be perfect in anything you do, that is our Fasdsther's work within each of us, but you will be seen as obedient and righteous by the Blood of His Lamb, our Yeshua, Jesus.
 
Jan 17, 2020
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#45
but Israel did need this law, i presume? because He gave it. were they all unbelievers?
those with faith, kept it too. is it like the temple tax - Peter answered rightly; a king takes custom from strangers, not from his children - and Christ said '
lest we offend them' and sent him to get silver from a fish. is it like that? why both the believing and the unbelieving were put in subjection together?
Bad people need law. Abraham and Abel, the born again did not.
 
Jan 17, 2020
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#46
True!

There's just one problem with that though...

Luke 18:19 And Jesus said to him, “Why do you call Me good? No one is good except God alone."
Do you think Jesus is not God? Or did Jesus know he remains hidden as God unless the Father reveals him?
 

KhedetOrthos

Active member
Dec 13, 2019
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#47
There is a great deal of confusion about law, gospel, faith, and good works today.

This is largely an accident of history. After the Roman church separated itself from the rest of Christianity in 1054, they held a series of unilateral councils which moved their doctrine ever closer to the concept of justification by works, with the Roman church being the sole repository of mercy (hence the selling of indulgences). The Protestant reformation took exception to this and promoted ”sola fide“ as its motto in response to the increasingly erroneous doctrines of the Popes...and it would seem as if in modern times, Messianic Judaism has gained in popularity as people seek an alternative to the libertine streak that has taken over mainline Protestantism in response to the sola fide message.

in contrast, there was never any serious disagreement over these issues in areas not influenced by the Pope and reformation as historic Christian teaching on justification and sanctification was preserved as it was in the beginning...

”Let us sum up the main points. The work of salvation belongs entirely to God. It is God through Christ and the Holy Spirit, who has the divine power to rescue us from the forces of sickness, evil, sin, death, and the devil. It is God through Christ and the Holy Spirit who alone provides justification, forgiveness, and new life to sinners who come to Him with faith. And God provides salvation as a most amazing and unceasing gift to all sincere seekers.

From our side, the question is about receiving and using the gift of salvation. The gift is offered, but if we do not receive it, we don’t have it, and certainly cannot use it. God offers the gift. We can choose to accept it or reject it. As Orthodox Christians we do not believe in predestination. Jesus said: “Whoever wants to come after me, let him take up his cross and follow me” (Mark 8:34). The gift and the challenge to follow Jesus through a life of faith and works coincide.

The reception of the gift of salvation is not a one-time event but a life-time process. St. Paul employs the verb “to save” (sozesthai) in the past tense (“we have been saved,” Rom 8:24; Eph 2:5); in the present tense (“we are being saved,” 1 Cor 1:18; 15:2), and in the future tense (“we will be saved,” Rom 5:10). He can think even of justification as a future event and part of the final judgment (Rom 2:13, 16). For Paul, Christians are involved in a lifetime covenant with God in which we work, planting and watering, but it is “only God who gives the growth” (1 Cor 3:7). We are “co-workers with God” (synergoi Theou, 1 Cor 3:9; 1 Thess 3:2). (Not “co-workers underGod” as some translations would have it). The mystery of salvation is a duet, not a solo. It is a life-time engagement with God. It has ups and downs, twists and turns, with opportunities to grow in the love of God, knowing that we can turn to Him again and again and receive forgiveness and a new birth. When we come to Christ as sinners, we have no works to offer to Him, but only faith and repentance. But once we come to Him and receive the gift of salvation, we enter into a sacred covenant to honor Him with good works. We read in Ephesians: “For by grace you have been saved through faith; and this is not your own doing, it is the gift of God . . . [We are] created in Christ Jesus for good works” (Eph 2:8-10).

The teaching of the New Testament is that God’s grace, our free will, and our faith and good works, are intimately connected. The Holy Spirit energizes in us both faith and good works as we thirst for and seek God’s grace. Neither faith nor good works can be presented as merit before God, but only as return gifts in humility, love, and thanksgiving. Let us not forget as well the sober words of James: “Faith by itself, if it has no works, is dead . . . Faith is completed by works . . . A person is justified by works and not by faith alone” (James 2:17, 22, 24). By free will, faith, and earnest labors, we work together with the grace of God in the awesome gift and mystery of salvation. As St. Paul puts it: “Work out your own salvation with fear and trembling; for God is at work in you, both to will and to work His good pleasure” (Phil 2:12-13). To God Almighty, together with the Son and the Holy Spirit, be praise and worship forever. Amen”

Link to Source
 
Mar 28, 2016
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#48
i assume you are not unfamiliar with what the law literally says and how it was literally kept. do you not believe that it was physically followed and that it was meant to be physically followed? are the jots and tittles not describing physical actions? the people of Moses time, of Christ's time, and today refer to and think of 'the law of Moses' as something to be literally kept. with open eyes we understand that it is a picture of the Lord but that doesn't make it simply a metaphor not a real law. they are real, actual commands.

you're missing the point here. we know these shadows point to the Messiah. please re-read the OP, and stop accusing me of things i am in no wise saying;
why did God give the law, instead of giving the Messiah?
at the time of Moses: why command shadows instead of directly giving the Light, as He did when He became flesh?

I would suggest that all ceremonial laws as shadows of the unseen eternal were used to preach the gospel of Christ beforehand in respect to the suffering of Christ and the glory that did follow. Which was the promised graves of the tens of thousands of old testament saints were opened as the first working of the resurrection opening the gates of the city prepared for his bride. The time of reformation had come the shadows has mini lights along the path became sight.

All ceremonial laws preached the suffering of Christ as our bloody husband beforehand of the first born of God it was the representative light pointing ahead .

like the circumcision a ceremonial law as a shadow of a suffering savor our bloody husband to come. Circumcision points the coming of God's first born Son Jesus in that way . Moses in a parable was to circumcise Gershom a word that means; "I have been a stranger in a strange land". as a figure .Sort of like Abraham and Isaac. But Moses who represent the law giver as to the letter of the law was to circumcise cut off the fore skin to show the Son of man Jesus was cut off from the father while he suffered unto death . The phrase "bloody husband" represents the gospel according to 1 Peter 1:11 .

Exodus 4:22-26And thou shalt say unto Pharaoh, Thus saith the Lord, Israel is my son, even my firstborn: And I say unto thee, Let my son go, that he may serve me: and if thou refuse to let him go, behold, I will slay thy son, even thy firstborn.And it came to pass by the way in the inn, that the Lord met him, and sought to kill him.Then Zipporah took a sharp stone, and cut off the foreskin of her son, and cast it at his feet, and said, Surely a bloody husband art thou to me. So he let him go: then she said, A bloody husband thou art, because of the circumcision.
.
The Exodus is used as the foundation of the doctrine of circummsion account. The gospel did work in Moses and Zipporah to both will and do His good pleasure.

Note . . . . (Purple in parenthesis) my added comment

1 Peter 1:11-12 Searching what, or what manner of time the Spirit of Christ (used to represent our "bloody husband" Christ ) which was in them did signify, when it testified beforehand the sufferings of Christ, and the glory that should follow.Unto whom it was revealed, ( Moses and Zipporah) that not unto themselves, but unto us they did minister the things, which are now reported unto you by them that have preached the gospel unto you with the Holy Ghost sent down from heaven; which things the angels desire to look into.
 

John146

Senior Member
Jan 13, 2016
17,131
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#49
because of transgressions -- but the blood of bulls could never remove sin.

reminds me,

Bear in mind that our Lord's patience means salvation,
just as our dear brother Paul also wrote you with the wisdom that God gave him.
(2 Peter 3:15)
that's a meaning that people twist ((per v. 16)), and it destroys them. under Moses, God was being patient with them -- even the captivity and woe, this was His patience toward them, until Shiloh come
Under the blood of animals, sins could be forgiven but not removed. Sins were covered but not washed away.
 

Dino246

Senior Member
Jun 30, 2015
25,494
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#52
It's a serious question. Not a rabbit trail.
Yes, it is a serious topic, which I will not discuss in this thread. I have made relevant comments in the 'Christ is God' thread.
 

JaumeJ

Senior Member
Jul 2, 2011
21,432
6,708
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#53
It would help all greatly to understand why the laws of sacrifice are made perfect by the sacrifice of our Lord for our sins.

Our sins were forgiven when we offered up the designated animal for sin, however it was the guilt of the sin no longer imputed against us. It was necessary to repeat this sacrifice because we are flesh and we sin.

Jesus, Yeshua, the Lamb of Yah, is the Sacrifice for all sins when His gift is acepted and we have faith in Him. That is the guilt of our transgressions are no longer held against us.

Come the Kingdom, every tear will be wiped away by God, HImself, and all then will be forgotten for He will have completed the work He began in us. That is to say that finally we wil be perfect (perfected by our Father.)

Thus the promise is fulfille, "You will be perfect for I , your God, am perfect." It is not a command, it is a promise.
 

oyster67

Senior Member
May 24, 2014
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#54
Romans 2
2:12 For as many as have sinned without law shall also perish without law: and as many as have sinned in the law shall be judged by the law;
2:17 Behold, thou art called a Jew, and restest in the law, and makest thy boast of God,
2:18 And knowest [his] will, and approvest the things that are more excellent, being instructed out of the law;
2:19 And art confident that thou thyself art a guide of the blind, a light of them which are in darkness,
2:20 An instructor of the foolish, a teacher of babes, which hast the form of knowledge and of the truth in the law.
2:21 Thou therefore which teachest another, teachest thou not thyself? thou that preachest a man should not steal, dost thou steal?
2:22 Thou that sayest a man should not commit adultery, dost thou commit adultery? thou that abhorrest idols, dost thou commit sacrilege?
2:23 Thou that makest thy boast of the law, through breaking the law dishonourest thou God?
2:24 For the name of God is blasphemed among the Gentiles through you, as it is written.

Is this saying that, in the end, those who have rejected the New Way(Jesus' Blood) and preferred the Law over it will be judged by that Old Law?

If so, then the Law would have multiple purposes:
1. Defines sin.
2. Points to New Way.
3. Convicts us.
4. Used as a tool for judgement upon those who prefer it over Jesus.
 

posthuman

Senior Member
Jul 31, 2013
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#55
Do you think Jesus is not God? Or did Jesus know he remains hidden as God unless the Father reveals him?
is it the Father who reveals the Son or the Son who reveals Himself, and the Father?
John 1:18, Luke 10:22, Matthew 11:27 . . ?
 

oyster67

Senior Member
May 24, 2014
11,887
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#56
is it the Father who reveals the Son or the Son who reveals Himself, and the Father?
John 1:18, Luke 10:22, Matthew 11:27 . . ?
John 1:18 No man hath seen God at any time; the only begotten Son, which is in the bosom of the Father, he hath declared [him].

Luke 10
10:21 In that hour Jesus rejoiced in spirit, and said, I thank thee, O Father, Lord of heaven and earth, that thou hast hid these things from the wise and prudent, and hast revealed them unto babes: even so, Father; for so it seemed good in thy sight.
10:22 All things are delivered to me of my Father: and no man knoweth who the Son is, but the Father; and who the Father is, but the Son, and [he] to whom the Son will reveal [him].

Matthew 11
11:25 At that time Jesus answered and said, I thank thee, O Father, Lord of heaven and earth, because thou hast hid these things from the wise and prudent, and hast revealed them unto babes.
11:26 Even so, Father: for so it seemed good in thy sight.
11:27 All things are delivered unto me of my Father: and no man knoweth the Son, but the Father; neither knoweth any man the Father, save the Son, and [he] to whomsoever the Son will reveal [him].

Jesus seems to be calling His Father the decision maker and revealer. John 3:16 says "God... gave Son", but they were One also, so perhaps they decided together, as One.
 
Jan 17, 2020
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#57
is it the Father who reveals the Son or the Son who reveals Himself, and the Father?
John 1:18, Luke 10:22, Matthew 11:27 . . ?
“He saith unto them, But whom say ye that I am? And Simon Peter answered and said, Thou art the Christ, the Son of the living God. And Jesus answered and said unto him, Blessed art thou, Simon Bar-jona: for flesh and blood hath not revealed it unto thee, but my Father which is in heaven.” Matthew 16:15–17 (KJV 1900)
 

Blik

Senior Member
Dec 6, 2016
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#58
i'm asking why Christ didn't come then. why did He give shadows instead of light, at that time?
You are a human, God is God. Could you create as God does? And you are now questioning Him!!
 

Dino246

Senior Member
Jun 30, 2015
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#59
You are a human, God is God. Could you create as God does? And you are now questioning Him!!
You seem to have a huge chip on your shoulder! Post is not "questioning God". He is exploring a topic that interests him by asking others for input.
 

Blik

Senior Member
Dec 6, 2016
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#60
The Old Testament was a physical covenant with physical laws and only for a benefit on earth, but the spiritual laws was there in the Old Testament..
If the old testament was physical and not spiritual then there would be no salvation for any of the people of the old testament. We are told there was salvation for them, although it was sleep until the curtain was spit when Christ was crucified.

Matt. 27: 51 At that moment the curtain of the temple was torn in two from top to bottom. The earth shook, the rocks split 52 and the tombs broke open. The bodies of many holy people who had died were raised to life. 53 They came out of the tombs after Jesus’ resurrection and went into the holy city and appeared to many people.