Why Wasn't A Law Given By Which One Could Be Righteous?

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evyaniy

Guest
In Psalm 119 vs 106 Yahshua took an oath to keep the law. In vs 107 He asks to be raised/quickened according to YAH's Word, the promise of life in the Law to the Man Who did it.

Only He could take an oath to keep the Law because it required His life. In fact He told us in the sermon on the mount not to swear or take oaths at all. Psalm 119 is His prayer to His Father to be raised to life because of His obedience to the Law in giving His life to save us.

105 NUN. Thy word is a lamp unto My feet, and a light unto My path. 106 I have sworn, and I will perform it, that I will keep Thy righteous judgments.107 I am afflicted very much: quicken Me, O YHVH, according unto Thy Word. 108 Accept, I beseech thee, the freewill offerings of My mouth, O YHVH, and teach Me Thy judgments. 109 My soul is continually in My hand: yet do I not forget Thy law. 110 The wicked have laid a snare for Me: yet I erred not from Thy precepts. 111 Thy testimonies have I taken as an heritage for ever: for they are the rejoicing of My heart. 112 I have inclined Mine heart to perform Thy statutes alway, even unto the end.
 

posthuman

Senior Member
Jul 31, 2013
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One of the parts of Psalm 119 that definitely shows it is Yahshua's prayer.

73 JOD. Thy hands have made Me and fashioned Me
why does speaking of being created make you think it is Christ praying? :unsure:

to me that certainly indicates it is not Messianic. everything that was created was created by Him, through Him and for Him.
 
Nov 16, 2019
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if it wasn't designed to impart life or to make righteous, then it isn't a flaw that it didn't.
For a law to give life it would have to take man's flaws into consideration, which the law of Moses does not do. The law of Moses can only give life to those who can keep it. And only a righteous person can keep the law. That's why it can't give life to fallen man.

i think it's significant that it is given to a people who have been cursing God in unbelief from the day they came out of Egypt, failing the 'test' of Exodus 16 and worshiping idols they made for themselves even while the Law was being transmitted to Moses. it's "not made for the righteous" ((1 Timothy 1:9))
The law of Moses is not for the righteous in that they don't need a system of sacrifice to reconcile them to God. And the righteous, by virtue of being righteous, don't need an outer guidance system directing them into the way of the righteous, like a horse needs a bit and bridle to go where they are to go.

God certainly knew that the people He gave this law to would not keep it. He explicitly says so, in Deuteronomy 31:15-22
so what kind of law did He give them -- what is His purpose in giving this law, with it's blessing and curses, to this people?
Well, we all know it was given to make us see we are not righteous. If we were by nature righteous we'd be keeping the law, not breaking it. But also, the way of the law (being considerate of other's well being) is in fact a condition for literally enjoying the life of God. It's not good for qualifying you to have that life. I'm not saying that. It's good for actually having the manifest abundant life that God gives those who obey Him. That is literally why I seek to live in God's commands, not to earn reconciliation with Him, but to actually have and enjoy the manifestation of his life in me, the life that I got by being reconciled to God through Christ's sacrifice.
 
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evyaniy

Guest
why does speaking of being created make you think it is Christ praying? :unsure:

to me that certainly indicates it is not Messianic. everything that was created was created by Him, through Him and for Him.
He became a Man and experienced life as we do. His prayers in the Psalms are as He was living life as a Man. A body was prepared for Him. YAH formed Him in the womb. He hoped on His mother's breast. He suffered and was persecuted. He felt pain and sorrow. His prayers in Psalms are as He experienced life and death.

Psalm 119 is all Him praying in praise of the Law and asking for life because of His obedience. It is His very words. It can be no one else. Only He could pray Psalm 119.
 

posthuman

Senior Member
Jul 31, 2013
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He knew that His obedience to the Law by offering His life in accordance and fulfillment of the Law would raise Him to life again because of His confidence/faith in His Father's promise in the law that the Man Who did these things would live.
look,

All things were made through Him, and without Him nothing was made that was made. In Him was life, and the life was the light of men. And the light shines in the darkness, and the darkness did not comprehend it.
(John 1:3-5)
Jesus doesn't have life 'because He obeyed the law and thereby inherited it'
Jesus is The Life.
Jesus is uncreated. He is The Eternal Son, the Beginning and the End. He is the Giver of Life.
Jesus is our priest by the power of an indestructible life ((Hebrews 7:16)) -- and He carries out priestly duties before rising from the dead, offering Himself. He cannot be the one who offers unless He is Priest, so He already has indestructible life ((duh)) -- it isn't given to Him as a reward for works. that's nonsensical.

 
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evyaniy

Guest
"The Law" - the Torah, the books of Moses, the law of Moses, the Sinai Covenant, etc
i think we all know what this refers to. no, it's not just the 10 commandments. don't be silly. ((James 2:9-10))



we know that righteousness cannot be attained through the law, neither can life:
I do not set aside the grace of God; for if righteousness comes through the law, then Christ died in vain.
(Galatians 2:21)
Is the law then against the promises of God? Certainly not!
For if there had been a law given which could have given life, truly righteousness would have been by the law.
(Galatians 3:21)
a law was given, but it was not one through which righteousness could come, and not one that could give life.
this is puzzling - because the law itself says '
the one who does these things will live by them' ((Leviticus 18:5, Romans 10:5, Galatians 3:12)) - yet by these things, i.e. Torah, no one receives life ((Galatians 2:16, Romans 3:20, Galatians 3:11 etc)).
still, it was given by God, and it is perfect. it was given by God to a specific people at a specific time. ((for more info, read Exodus & Deuteronomy etc))
why? how is this perfect -- how is a law that cannot produce righteousness and cannot give life, the absolute perfect law to be given to this people at this time?


we know too, 'by the law is the knowledge of sin' ((Romans 3:20, 7:7-9 etc)) and 'the law was a schoolmaster' to bring people to Christ ((Galatians 3:24)). so we know some things about the purpose of the law. and we know, 'the letter kills but the Spirit gives life' ((2 Corinthians 3:6)) -- in fact He has made us ministers of a new covenant, 'built on better promises' ((Hebrews 8:6)) -- and the first is 'made obsolete' ((Hebrews 8:13)).

so here is my question ((yay! a question!)), phrased in the form of a few questions, but really it is all one question:

why wasn't the spiritual law given in the first place?
why a Torah of ordinances & statutes & commandments called a '
ministry of death' ((2 Corinthians 3:7)) to go before?
why a law which makes everyone who relies it, under a curse? ((Deuteronomy 27:26, Galatians 3:10))
why require the blood of bulls and goats when it can never take away sin?
why command physical circumcision if it means nothing, but only the circumcision done without human hands is effectual?
why did God give The Law which '
is not of faith' ((Galatians 3:12)) instead of giving faith?
why did grace & truth wait over a thousand years after Moses to come through Jesus Christ ((John 1:17))?
In your original post you asked the question about the promise of life in the law in Leviticus 18:5 which was quoted by Ezekiel and the Galatians as you point out. It is an excellent question and essential to understanding Scripture and the Law and our Salvation through Messiah's obedience.

i was trying to answer the question you asked. The Law was Life to Yahshua because of His obedience in offering His Life which the Law required of Him. In that sense the promise of Life in the Law saved Him and also saves us because of our faith in Him and His Sacrifice for forgiveness of our sins as Hebrews 9 explains.

11 But Messiah being come an High Priest of good things to come, by a greater and more perfect tabernacle, not made with hands, that is to say, not of this building; 12 Neither by the blood of goats and calves, but by His own blood He entered in once into the holy place, having obtained eternal redemption for us.

13 For if the blood of bulls and of goats, and the ashes of an heifer sprinkling the unclean, sanctifieth to the purifying of the flesh: 14 How much more shall the blood of Messiah, Who through the Eternal Spirit offered Himself without spot to YAH, purge your conscience from dead works to serve the living YAH?

15 And for this cause He is the mediator of the new testament, that by means of death, for the redemption of the transgressions that were under the first testament, they which are called might receive the promise of eternal inheritance. 16 For where a testament is, there must also of necessity be the death of the testator. 17 For a testament is of force after men are dead: otherwise it is of no strength at all while the testator liveth.

18 Whereupon neither the first testament was dedicated without blood. 19 For when Moses had spoken every precept to all the people according to the law, he took the blood of calves and of goats, with water, and scarlet wool, and hyssop, and sprinkled both the book*, and all the people, 20 Saying, This is the blood of the testament which YAH hath enjoined unto you. 21 Moreover he sprinkled with blood both the tabernacle, and all the vessels of the ministry. 22 And almost all things are by the law purged with blood; and without shedding of blood is no remission.

23 It was therefore necessary that the patterns of things in the heavens should be purified with these; but the heavenly things themselves with better sacrifices than these. 24 For Messiah is not entered into the holy places made with hands, which are the figures of the true; but into heaven itself, now to appear in the presence of YAH for us: 25 Nor yet that He should offer himself often, as the high priest entereth into the holy place every year with blood of others; 26 For then must He often have suffered since the foundation of the world: but now once in the end of the world hath He appeared to put away sin by the sacrifice of Himself.
 
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evyaniy

Guest
look,

All things were made through Him, and without Him nothing was made that was made. In Him was life, and the life was the light of men. And the light shines in the darkness, and the darkness did not comprehend it.
(John 1:3-5)
Jesus doesn't have life 'because He obeyed the law and thereby inherited it'
Jesus is The Life.
Jesus is uncreated. He is The Eternal Son, the Beginning and the End. He is the Giver of Life.
Jesus is our priest by the power of an indestructible life ((Hebrews 7:16)) -- and He carries out priestly duties before rising from the dead, offering Himself. He cannot be the one who offers unless He is Priest, so He already has indestructible life ((duh)) -- it isn't given to Him as a reward for works. that's nonsensical.
 
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evyaniy

Guest
As a Man He had to be obedient to the Law to save us.

Romans 5

19 For as by one man's disobedience many were made sinners, so by the obedience of One shall many be made righteous.
 
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evyaniy

Guest
look,

All things were made through Him, and without Him nothing was made that was made. In Him was life, and the life was the light of men. And the light shines in the darkness, and the darkness did not comprehend it.
(John 1:3-5)
Jesus doesn't have life 'because He obeyed the law and thereby inherited it'
Jesus is The Life.
Jesus is uncreated. He is The Eternal Son, the Beginning and the End. He is the Giver of Life.
Jesus is our priest by the power of an indestructible life ((Hebrews 7:16)) -- and He carries out priestly duties before rising from the dead, offering Himself. He cannot be the one who offers unless He is Priest, so He already has indestructible life ((duh)) -- it isn't given to Him as a reward for works. that's nonsensical.
and yet as a Man He had to be fully obedient to the law to the point of offering His Life as a Sacrifice to save us, to receive the promise of life that is in the Law to Him.
 

posthuman

Senior Member
Jul 31, 2013
37,776
13,534
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As a Man He had to be obedient to the Law to save us.

Romans 5

19 For as by one man's disobedience many were made sinners, so by the obedience of One shall many be made righteous.
but you are presenting as though He saves Himself --

and yet as a Man He had to be fully obedient to the law to the point of offering His Life as a Sacrifice to save us, to receive the promise of life that is in the Law to Him.
the promise in the law is not a promise to God that God will inherit life from Himself if He faithfully keeps His own commands.
we're not talking about someone who has to justify himself before God.
He did these things for our sake, not in order to procure for Himself a righteousness of works. He justified Himself among men for the sake of men, not for the sake of Himself. I AM THAT I AM -- self existent, self justified. when He says ((John 5:31)) that His testimony is not valid if He speaks on His own, He is speaking as a man for the sake of men in the hearing of men for the justification before men that men require of men. look! He says again before men,

Even if I testify about Myself, My testimony is true, for I know where I came from and where I am going;
but you do not know where I come from or where I am going!
(John 8:14)
 
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evyaniy

Guest
but you are presenting as though He saves Himself --



the promise in the law is not a promise to God that God will inherit life from Himself if He faithfully keeps His own commands.
we're not talking about someone who has to justify himself before God.

He did these things for our sake, not in order to procure for Himself a righteousness of works. He justified Himself among men for the sake of men, not for the sake of Himself. I AM THAT I AM -- self existent, self justified. when He says ((John 5:31)) that His testimony is not valid if He speaks on His own, He is speaking as a man for the sake of men in the hearing of men for the justification before men that men require of men. look! He says again before men,

Even if I testify about Myself, My testimony is true, for I know where I came from and where I am going;
but you do not know where I come from or where I am going!
(John 8:14)
He experienced life as a Man because He became a Man. He is the Man Whom the promise of Life in the law was made to. He saved us by His obedience. Obedience to what if not the Law?

In order to be raised from the dead He had to be fully obedient to the Law by offering His life. He had to die in order to be raised. As a Man He had to trust in the promise of life in the law that He would be raised if he gave His Life. Do you see it.

Psalm 119 is His prayer praising the Law and asking His Father to raise Him to life according to the promise in the Law. He asked 16 times in Psalm 119 to live or be revived or quickened or raised according to YAH's promise in the Law that the MAN Who does these thing will Live.
 

Mii

Well-known member
Mar 23, 2019
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@evyaniy the way you are writing is coming across as "the ubermensch" that he ascended to become God. That he had to fulfill everything in order to rise from the dead as a sort of check list or "becoming".

I'm not suggesting that you believe this way but I think the confusion is coming from that direction.

He IS the Word. He didn't conform to the word as a sort of "path" to messianic fulfillment. Do you see how the way you are writing could be misconstrued?

He IS the way, he didn't follow the way.

Granted, the mysterious element of "how" when we are not divine makes completely understanding this difficult, if not impossible. We know that it is, and that is sufficient for the work of the Word.
 
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evyaniy

Guest
@evyaniy the way you are writing is coming across as "the ubermensch" that he ascended to become God. That he had to fulfill everything in order to rise from the dead as a sort of check list or "becoming".

I'm not suggesting that you believe this way but I think the confusion is coming from that direction.

He IS the Word. He didn't conform to the word as a sort of "path" to messianic fulfillment. Do you see how the way you are writing could be misconstrued?
The only way to understand Psalm 119 and Hebrews and many other Scriptures is to understand that Yahshua experienced life as a man with the same passions and fears as the rest of us. He did not have complete omniscience as a baby or as he grew. He learned and grew and experienced like the rest of us yet without sin.
 

posthuman

Senior Member
Jul 31, 2013
37,776
13,534
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The only way to understand Psalm 119 and Hebrews and many other Scriptures is to understand that Yahshua experienced life as a man with the same passions and fears as the rest of us. He did not have complete omniscience as a baby or as he grew. He learned and grew and experienced like the rest of us yet without sin.

if I testify about Myself, My testimony is true, for I know where I came from and where I am going;
but you do not know where I come from or where I am going!
(John 8:14)
You know all things
(John 16:30)
"Do you finally believe?" Jesus replied.
(John 16:31)
Lord, You know all things
(John 21:17)
 
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evyaniy

Guest
i apologize for coming across as an "ubermensch", which i had to look up. i am only trying to explain what i learned from Scripture. The explanations i have offered answer the original questions.

i cannot help that people do not accept that Psalm 119 is Yahshua praying. It is the only way to understand the Psalm as well as many others. Not only that but it reveals Yahshua's actual prayers while He was experiencing Life as a Man.

Think of what that means. We get to know what He was thinking and His prayers to the Father while He was going through His suffering. We get to see His Faith and love for His Father. We get to know Him from His heart.
 
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evyaniy

Guest
if I testify about Myself, My testimony is true, for I know where I came from and where I am going;
but you do not know where I come from or where I am going!
(John 8:14)
You know all things
(John 16:30)
"Do you finally believe?" Jesus replied.
(John 16:31)
Lord, You know all things
(John 21:17)
One simple question. Was Psalm 119 Yahshua praying?
 
Nov 16, 2019
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The only way to understand Psalm 119 and Hebrews and many other Scriptures is to understand that Yahshua experienced life as a man with the same passions and fears as the rest of us. He did not have complete omniscience as a baby or as he grew. He learned and grew and experienced like the rest of us yet without sin.
The scriptures do bear this out:

"8Son though he was, he learned obedience from what he suffered 9and, once made perfect, he became the source of eternal salvation for all who obey him 10and was designated by God to be high priest in the order of Melchizedek." - Hebrews 5:8-10

"10In bringing many sons and daughters to glory, it was fitting that God, for whom and through whom everything exists, should make the pioneer of their salvation perfect through what he suffered." - Hebrews 2:10

We're all about Christ's divinity, but not so acquainted with his humanity. This man who sweat blood in intense anxiety in the garden over what his father was asking him to endure and prayed that if there be another way let's do that instead.
 
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evyaniy

Guest
The scriptures do bear this out:

"8Son though he was, he learned obedience from what he suffered 9and, once made perfect, he became the source of eternal salvation for all who obey him 10and was designated by God to be high priest in the order of Melchizedek." - Hebrews 5:8-10

"10In bringing many sons and daughters to glory, it was fitting that God, for whom and through whom everything exists, should make the pioneer of their salvation perfect through what he suffered." - Hebrews 2:10

We're all about Christ's divinity, but not so acquainted with his humanity. This man who sweat blood in intense anxiety in the garden for what his father was asking him to endure and prayed that if there be another way let's do that instead.
Yes, thank you. It makes what He did as a Man to save us even greater. It is the only way to understand His prayers in the Psalms. He even said it was not David speaking in the Psalms most of the time. Other Scripture confirms that. Most of Hebrews quotes Psalms showing it was Messiah or His Father speaking. That is the main point of Hebrews.
 
Nov 16, 2019
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Yes, thank you. It makes what He did as a Man to save us even greater. It is the only way to understand His prayers in the Psalms. He even said it was not David speaking in the Psalms most of the time. Other Scripture confirms that. Most of Hebrews quotes Psalms showing it was Messiah or His Father speaking. That is the main point of Hebrews.
David was a prophet (Acts something?).
Psalm 22 comes to mind.
It's not his own suffering he is talking about. He is prophesying the sufferings and lamentations of Jesus'.

I'm sitting here at my computer, filled with the life of Christ in me, and thinking he did all that so he could do this in me.