why would millennial kingdom not be literal?

[TMS]

Revelation 22:11, 12 makes it clear that the case of every person is closed before Jesus returns. Those who wait to accept Christ until the 1,000 years begin will have waited too long.
The saved and the unsaved are decided before Jesus comes.
"With the breath of his lips shall he slay the wicked." Isaiah 11:4. "When the Lord Jesus shall be revealed from heaven with his mighty angels, In flaming fire taking vengeance on them that know not God." 2 Thessalonians 1:7, 8. "Let the wicked perish at the presence of God." Psalms 68:2. "But the rest of the dead lived not again until the thousand years were finished." Revelation 20:5

 

[tanakh]

The use of 'a thousand' in the Old Testament? E.g. 'a thousand generations' meaning a large number of generations. 'The cattle on a thousand hills' meaning a large number of hills. Need I go on?





Why when John himself said it was a book of signs?


.

John? but John also created the book.

Certain numbers and the names of People places and objects in the Bible are often used to express spiritual truth as well as facts. The Bible is a spiritual book. Without fully understanding this a persons view of it is stunted and distorted. Some people mentioned in the Gospels had the same literalistic view as many have today. A few examples are those of the crowd who asked how they could eat Christs flesh and Nicodemus who asked him how he was going to return to his Mothers womb and be born again. The overwhelming mistake made by the Jews including his Disciples at that time was to believe that the Messiah was going to restore and rule a literal kingdom. Forty years later God destroyed the one they already had.

If the 1000 years is a literal figure does it mean that the cattle on a thousand hills is also literal? If so do we conclude that those on hill 1001 onwards are not the Lords?

 

[eternally-gratefull]

hows it goign backwards when revelation is the last book in the bible? and its mentioned in one of the last chapters of the nt

It all falls to one idea, Is God done with Israel or not. If he is, The mellinium is not needed (god is done) if he is not. And God still has plans for mankind on earth. Then your right the mellinium will be the last event, But God has to have a purpose.

 

[eternally-gratefull]

no evidence for any of this.

satan is clearly very active in deceiving the nations today. or else there would be no debates. and saints arent ruling over the world, last time i checked saints are being persecuted? how are the christians ruling the world? this reign doesnt feel like much of a reign. christians are so divided and cant even agree on simple doctrines yet we are reigning the earth somehow.

saints will rule the world once Jesus returns.

and who is talking about a different gospel? what does that have to do with anything

Remember, Christ will rule with a rod of iron.

His iron must be broke, because the would is n OT paying g attention to him they are laughing at him, And satan is not deciebving the world. Yet we have had Lenon, Stalin, Hitler and many other people like them.

Oh and do not forget. The great tribulation which was said to be the greatest then ever has been or will be. Yet it was 70 AD (the fact ww2 made that look like a picnic does not matter)

 

[eternally-gratefull]

Amen Angela

To begin with the whole book of Revelation is signified using signs as that seen, the temporal, to give us the spiritual understanding, the eternal as that not seen .

It becomes a matter how do we hear God, as the things of God's perfect loving law seeking His approval and not as the things of men after the philosophies as oral traditions of men of this world? Which master or way of interpreting.Do we need men to teach us or can God perform that which he promises?

Rev 1:1 The Revelation of Jesus Christ, which God gave unto him, to shew unto his servants things which must shortly come to pass; and he sent and signified it by his angel unto his servant John:


2Co 4:18 While we look not at the things which are seen, but at the things which are not seen: for the things which are seen are temporal; but the things which are not seen are eternal.

It certainly applies to the the parable in Chapter 20 and the word thousand, the word in question which represents a unknown, unseen number throughout the scriptures used in many examples in order to establish the use of parables.

It is no less used as a metaphor than any of the other metaphors in that parable.Like in the beginning I saw an angel, angels have no form it was a revelation as a interpretation of God and the things that have form speak of the eternal not seen . They can get turned upside down and easily take way Gods understanding of the parables..

The apostate unconverted Jew turned things upside down in that way... taking away his understanding as His interpretation as a vision, revelation to us. that chased after the things seen requiring a sign before they would believe. This made them stumble over the cross an obstacle in their way.

And I saw an angel (not literal)come down from heaven, having the key (not literal) of the bottomless pit (not literal)and a great chain(not literal)in his hand(not literal). And he laid hold on the dragon(not literal), that old serpent(not literal), which is the Devil, and Satan, and bound him a thousand(not literal)years,
And cast him into the bottomless pit(not literal) and shut him up, and set a seal (not literal)upon him, that he should deceive the nations no more, till the thousand (not literal)years should be fulfilled: and after that he must be loosed a little season. And I saw thrones,(not literal)and they sat upon them, and judgment was given unto them: and I saw the souls (not literal)of them that were beheaded(not literal)for the witness of Jesus, and for the word of God, and which had not worshipped the beast(not literal), neither his image(not literal), neither had received his mark(not literal)upon their foreheads(not literal), or in their hands(not literal); and they lived and reigned with Christ a thousand (not literal)years.But the rest of the "dead"(not literal)lived not again until the thousand(not literal)years were finished. "This is the first resurrection."Rev 20:5

"This is the first resurrection.the resurrection we are presently in. It began over two thousand literal years ago when Christ said it was the finished, the time of reformation had come and is still here reforming souls and hearts.we are over the literal thousand mark and no one has received the promise of their new incorruptible body .

That's the second and final resurrection on the last day in the twinkling of the eye the former things will not be remembered or ever come to mind. then the wedding will be consummated and the glorious veil of his bride lifted and we will see Him face to face.

Prophesy is given for a purpose. To prove to mankind that the God of the universe is the ONE TRUE GOD.

Prophesy being symbolized and not literally coming true destroys the purpose of prophesy.

Plus. All prophesy concerning the first advent was literally fulfilled

All the prophesies concerning the gentile kingdoms up to Rome 1 was literally fulfilled

Using precedence, Since all prophesy up to that point was literally fulfilled. All futures prophesy should be interpreted the same.

 

[eternally-gratefull]

Can you please tell me when Jesus sat on DAVID'S throne?
Luke1: 32 He will be great, and will be called the Son of the Highest; and the Lord God will give Him the throne of His father David.

How about when all the nations or families of the world will come to him, and those who do not will be PUNISHED by no rain. Did not know there was sin in heaven.

Zech 14: [FONT=&quot]And it shall be [/FONT]that whichever of the families of the earth do not come up to Jerusalem to worship the King, the Lord of hosts, on them there will be no rain

 

[eternally-gratefull]

I believe that Scripture should be taken literally unless there is compelling reason to do otherwise.

"If thine eye offend thee pluck it out" gives such a compelling reason. God doesn't want us maiming ourselves.

The millennium gives no such compelling reason; and therefore should be taken literally.

There is another reason

1. Plucking your eye out is not prophesy
2. Revelations, the great tribulation. And Jesus reign on Davids throne is prophesy. If they are not literally fulfilled God lied.

Prophesy is used to bring people to repentance. When they see things which were told would happen literally hundreds or thousand of years before they happen (literally to the “T”) many people repent.

Look at how jesus proved himself. The prophets spoke of him, and the things they said literally came true, in fact the early church was founded on that FACT and eyewitness accounts that those things literally were fulfilled in Christ.

 

[Snoozy]

The new Jerusalem is not coming down until the 1000 years are finished and during the 1000 years the earth is void.
Jesus will rule the earth when it is recreated and made new (after the 1000 years), not while it is sinful and desolate or void.

this is actually the opposite order of the bible.
in the bible the millennium happens and then after it the new jerusalem descends.

 

[Snoozy]

Remember, Christ will rule with a rod of iron.

His iron must be broke, because the would is n OT paying g attention to him they are laughing at him, And satan is not deciebving the world. Yet we have had Lenon, Stalin, Hitler and many other people like them.

Oh and do not forget. The great tribulation which was said to be the greatest then ever has been or will be. Yet it was 70 AD (the fact ww2 made that look like a picnic does not matter)

yes uce this is how i see it too.

i decided to make this thread because i can admit im ignorant of what the other side believes fully. but from the [not literal] quotes that ive been getting seems like they heard someone say it and just repeat it. i dont know.

but so far the explanations ive heard is not something u can come up with by just reading the bible. give anyone a bible and they will easily see that Jesus returns in revelation 19, satan is then bound after Jesus' return and the millennium starts in revelation 20. Then satan is loosed and permanently taken out along with the folks he deceived and new heaven and new earth in revelation 21.
its simple, its plain, its bible. and i dont see no problem with reading it like that. thats how anyone would read it. makes sense to me.

are there any verses that contradict it? i dont think so. even the apostles were waiting for the millennium in acts 1:6

 

[eternally-gratefull]

yes uce this is how i see it too.

i decided to make this thread because i can admit im ignorant of what the other side believes fully. but from the [not literal] quotes that ive been getting seems like they heard someone say it and just repeat it. i dont know.

but so far the explanations ive heard is not something u can come up with by just reading the bible. give anyone a bible and they will easily see that Jesus returns in revelation 19, satan is then bound after Jesus' return and the millennium starts in revelation 20. Then satan is loosed and permanently taken out along with the folks he deceived and new heaven and new earth in revelation 21.
its simple, its plain, its bible. and i dont see no problem with reading it like that. thats how anyone would read it. makes sense to me.

are there any verses that contradict it? i dont think so. even the apostles were waiting for the millennium in acts 1:6

just remember a few things.

This topic can get heated (especially in here)

Stick to fact or what you see the Bible say, Try not to attack (although you will eventually get that handed to you)

It is not a salvic question, and thus not worth getting in trouble or causing division over.

 

[Adstar]

i honestly didnt even know that people existed who didnt think the 1000 year reign of Jesus was not a literal 1000 years on earth. only after i got on the computer i heard about it for the first time. this is the truth.


i think its literal but if someone were to prove to me its not from the bible id believe it of course.

but i wanna ask all of u who dont think its literal, why would it not be? is there a single reason for not taking the millennial kindgom as a literal kingdom on earth? any biblical reason whatsoever?? or is it just that people dont like the idea of it? whats the problem here?

The Non literal interpretation essentially came about by the catholic church.. They wanted to interpret the book of Revelation to have their church as the fulfillment of the Kingdom on earth.. They wanted to interpret most of the happenings in the Book of Revelation to be already fulfilled during the times just after the death and Resurrection of Jesus..

Of course 1000 years after these events there was great fear of the end of the world Around 1000 AD .. But of course the end of the world didn't happen because the catholic church was not the fulfillment of the kingdom on earth.. So then the catholic church had to reinterpret the 1000 Years to be 1000 symbolic years or to really be safe just a really long time..

A lot of protestant churches still adopt the catholic type of interpretation of the symbolic 1000 years as a hang over from once being catholics in their past generations..

 

[Stunnedbygrace]

this is what ive gotten so far:

its symbolic language

its mentioned only once

neither of these refute a literal earthly kingdom. many important things are mentioned only once no reason to discard them

symbolic means it represents something. garee u said not literal to everything then what does it all mean? what does it represent.

Its not mentioned once in Rev. Its mentioned many times. I've not counted them but its definitely mentioned more than once in Rev.

And we read about this 1000 years also in the prophets although the time frame isn't mentioned. For instance the prophets say there will be no more war but there will still be disputings which Jesus will settle. And we will outlive the works of our hands, and if anyone dies at 100 years oldthey will be called a youth. There will still be some death and some disputings, so it isn't yet heaven.

 

[eternally-gratefull]

Its not mentioned once in Rev. Its mentioned many times. I've not counted them but its definitely mentioned more than once in Rev.

And we read about this 1000 years also in the prophets although the time frame isn't mentioned. For instance the prophets say there will be no more war but there will still be disputings which Jesus will settle. And we will outlive the works of our hands, and if anyone dies at 100 years oldthey will be called a youth. There will still be some death and some disputings, so it isn't yet heaven.

Amen, there is so many OT prophesies concerning this time which shows things which could not be said to happen in heaven, but here on earth that it is hard to ignore, which is why I believe Symbolic interpretation started.

 

[Rokurac]

The Non literal interpretation essentially came about by the catholic church.. They wanted to interpret the book of Revelation to have their church as the fulfillment of the Kingdom on earth.. They wanted to interpret most of the happenings in the Book of Revelation to be already fulfilled during the times just after the death and Resurrection of Jesus..

Of course 1000 years after these events there was great fear of the end of the world Around 1000 AD .. But of course the end of the world didn't happen because the catholic church was not the fulfillment of the kingdom on earth.. So then the catholic church had to reinterpret the 1000 Years to be 1000 symbolic years or to really be safe just a really long time..

A lot of protestant churches still adopt the catholic type of interpretation of the symbolic 1000 years as a hang over from once being catholics in their past generations..

This is just not accurate.

The amillennial view was common before the Nicean council ever took place. Way before the roman catholic church came to exist. Justin Martyr in the 100s and many other church fathers can testify to this.

The futurist view was actually promoted by a jesuit priest to counter the claims of the reformers that the Pope was the antichrist.

 

[Rokurac]

is there a single reason for not taking the millennial kindgom as a literal kingdom on earth? any biblical reason whatsoever?? or is it just that people dont like the idea of it? whats the problem here?

Verses such as this are one of the reasons:

2 Peter 3:10-13 But the day of the Lord will come like a thief, in which the heavens will pass away with a roar and the elements will be destroyed with intense heat, and the earth and its works will be burned up. Since all these things are to be destroyed in this way, what sort of people ought you to be in holy conduct and godliness, looking for and hastening the coming of the day of God, because of which the heavens will be destroyed by burning, and the elements will melt with intense heat! But according to His promise we are looking for new heavens and a new earth, in which righteousness dwells.

The reading of this text for what it says clearly indicates that this is talking about the Second Advent of our Lord, and Peter says that is when the new heavens and a new earth will be established and the old one will perish. No mention of the millennial kingdom.
The reason this is significant is because the writings of Peter are very clear, and not apocalyptic unlike the book of Revelation. One of the keys to a sound biblical interpretation is that you always interpret the unclear passages in light of the clear ones and not vice versa.

Similar verses exist in the Gospels from the mouth of Lord Jesus, where His teaching clearly indicates that once He returns there is a finality to it, no intermediate millennial kingdom but rather, judgment and either eternal life, or eternal punishment:

John 5:28-29
Do not marvel at this; for an hour is coming, in which all who are in the tombs will hear His voice, and will come forth; those who did the good deeds to a resurrection of life, those who committed the evil deeds to a resurrection of judgment.

Matthew 25:46
These will go away into eternal punishment, but the righteous into eternal life.”

Jesus states when the resurrection will occur, He says it many times "on the last day" not a thousand years before it, but on the last day.

John 6:39-40, 44
This is the will of Him who sent Me, that of all that He has given Me I lose nothing, but raise it up on the last day. For this is the will of My Father, that everyone who beholds the Son and believes in Him will have eternal life, and I Myself will raise him up on the last day.” No one can come to Me unless the Father who sent Me draws him; and I will raise him up on the last day.

These verses are clear, and its wise to interpret the unclear in light of the clear passages. And these are clear passages, no apocalyptic literature and few symbols.

Hope this helps.

 

[Stunnedbygrace]

Certain numbers and the names of People places and objects in the Bible are often used to express spiritual truth as well as facts. The Bible is a spiritual book. Without fully understanding this a persons view of it is stunted and distorted. Some people mentioned in the Gospels had the same literalistic view as many have today. A few examples are those of the crowd who asked how they could eat Christs flesh and Nicodemus who asked him how he was going to return to his Mothers womb and be born again. The overwhelming mistake made by the Jews including his Disciples at that time was to believe that the Messiah was going to restore and rule a literal kingdom. Forty years later God destroyed the one they already had.

If the 1000 years is a literal figure does it mean that the cattle on a thousand hills is also literal? If so do we conclude that those on hill 1001 onwards are not the Lords?

This doesn't make logical sense as an argument (to me).
To take it at its core is to say none of it can be literal.
You could say that since Jesus is depicted as a lamb looking as if He had been slain isn't to be taken literal so therefore the story of His dying on the cross also is symbolic and not literal.

Its symbolic to call Him a lamb. It does not therefore follow that His death didn't literally happen.

Do you see what I mean?

As an argument, if you play it out, it doesn't make much sense...

 

[eternally-gratefull]

This doesn't make logical sense as an argument (to me).
To take it at its core is to say none of it can be literal.
You could say that since Jesus is depicted as a lamb looking as if He had been slain isn't to be taken literal so therefore the story of His dying on the cross also is symbolic and not literal.

Its symbolic to call Him a lamb. It does not therefore follow that His death didn't literally happen.

Do you see what I mean?

As an argument, if you play it out, it doesn't make much sense...

Amen again.

Babylon was a head, and it was a lion, Yet it was a literal kingdom. Daniel told the king HE was the head of Gold) Same with Persia/Greece and Rome.


Using symbols to prophesy LITERAL things is not new. But never where They interpretations symbolic. They were literal events or people or kingdoms.

 

[Stunnedbygrace]

And we do have a verse that says: it will all happen exactly as the prophets said it will. I think its in Rev as a matter of fact...

 

[Snoozy]

Verses such as this are one of the reasons:

2 Peter 3:10-13 But the day of the Lord will come like a thief, in which the heavens will pass away with a roar and the elements will be destroyed with intense heat, and the earth and its works will be burned up. Since all these things are to be destroyed in this way, what sort of people ought you to be in holy conduct and godliness, looking for and hastening the coming of the day of God, because of which the heavens will be destroyed by burning, and the elements will melt with intense heat! But according to His promise we are looking for new heavens and a new earth, in which righteousness dwells.

thats what it says but we dont need to throw out revelation 20 to make it fit. we can just harmonize it. and say peter is talking about after the millennium the new heaven and new earth comes. hes talking about the final destination. looking past the kingdom age.

 

[garee]

Amen again.

Babylon was a head, and it was a lion, Yet it was a literal kingdom. Daniel told the king HE was the head of Gold) Same with Persia/Greece and Rome.



Using symbols to prophesy LITERAL things is not new. But never where They interpretations symbolic. They were literal events or people or kingdoms.

Yes many of the parables were literally historically accurate/ true. We walk by faith after the spirutl meaning of them.