Will you go to Heaven?

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Ralph-

Senior Member
Aug 10, 2017
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Double double speak speak :eek: But I am not really surprised :p
It's double speak to you because you do not differentiate between trusting in God and the power of faith that God gives so you can do that trusting.

God gives the faith to believe. You do the believing. God doesn't do your believing for you. He gives you the power for you to choose to believe, if you want to believe. The believing/ trusting part is up to you. Will you choose to trust him and continue to trust him and be saved? Or will you reject the power of faith he gives for you to believe and choose not to believe and be saved? You must choose to believe and continue to believe in order to be saved when Jesus comes back. Those who turn back will not be heirs along with the sons of God.
 

Ralph-

Senior Member
Aug 10, 2017
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It may have been Justin Martyr (2nd century) who originated the idea of baptismal regeneration, but since then it became dogma. But is it taught in Scripture?
No, but we can see that for ourselves. Just as we can see for ourselves that they had the 'no once saved always saved' part correct.

We don't need church history to see what is plainly written in our Bibles. I'm pointing out that once saved always saved is actually a latter day teaching in the church. It was not part of Jesus teachings. The Apostles did not teach it. And the church fathers immediately after them rejected it. And it was rejected again when Augustine brought it up. It wasn't until the Reformation that Calvin succeeded in deceiving the church with once saved always saved. And now it's so bad it has morphed into the Hyper/Freegrace movement that says you can even deny Christ in outright unbelief and you will still be saved when Jesus comes back.
 
Mar 14, 2011
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You can't just blow it off. The Galatians are saved people in danger of making themselves slaves of the old covenant. Slaves who are not heirs of the promise. They will lose the inheritance they have if they go back to the law for justification and away from Jesus.


"now that you have come to know God, or rather to be known by God, how is it that you turn back again to the weak and worthless elemental things, to which you desire to be enslaved all over again? 10You observe days and months and seasons and years (for justification).

30But what does the Scripture say?
“CAST OUT THE BONDWOMAN AND HER SON,
FOR THE SON OF THE BONDWOMAN SHALL NOT BE AN HEIR WITH THE SON OF THE FREE WOMAN.”


31So then, brethren, we are not children of a bondwoman, but of the free woman (come back to your senses)."

Galatians 4:9-10,30-31


The sacrifice of Jesus, eternal life, the Holy Spirit........they lose it all if they persist in their sin and don't come back to their senses and back to the blood by which they were sanctified. Like the Hebrew church, they are trampling on the blood of the covenant by which they were sanctified making themselves enemies of God with nothing to look forward to but destruction along with the enemies of God:


"10By this will we have been sanctified through the offering of the body of Jesus Christ once for all.

23Let us hold fast the confession of our hope without wavering, for He who promised is faithful

26For if we go on sinning willfully after receiving the knowledge of the truth, there no longer remains a sacrifice for sins, 27but a terrifying expectation of judgment and THE FURY OF A FIRE WHICH WILL CONSUME THE ADVERSARIES.

29How much severer punishment do you think he will deserve who has trampled under foot the Son of God, and has regarded as unclean the blood of the covenant by which he was sanctified, and has insulted the Spirit of grace? 30For we know Him who said, “VENGEANCE IS MINE, I WILL REPAY.”

Hebrews 10:.10,23,26,29-30


It's right here under our noses but the church can't see it. That's how powerful the deceit about once saved always saved is at this time in the church history. It's the ear tickling doctrine of the end times. IMO, it will win in fulfillment of the prophecy about the falling away that occurs before Christ returns.
Your right, you cant see it, not everyone in our churches is saved today or in galatia

Paul said if anyone teaches a gospel which was different they were to be accursed, those people were in the churches of galatiia, i guess you think they were saved. Well actually, by the way you speak, i am sure you know they were saved..

Smh!
 

Ralph-

Senior Member
Aug 10, 2017
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Your right, you cant see it, not everyone in our churches is saved today or in galatia

Paul said if anyone teaches a gospel which was different they were to be accursed, those people were in the churches of galatiia, i guess you think they were saved. Well actually, by the way you speak, i am sure you know they were saved..

Smh!
Paul plainly said they were saved in several passages.

Then he said they will not be heirs along with the sons of the New Covenant if they go back to justification by works of the law.
 
Mar 14, 2011
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Paul plainly said they were saved in several passages.

Then he said they will not be heirs along with the sons of the New Covenant if they go back to justification by works of the law.
yeah, Paul contradicted himself,

Again Keep believing you can earn your salvation, I am done trying to talk to you. I will place you in my prayer list with the rest of your buddies who are there.
 

Ralph-

Senior Member
Aug 10, 2017
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yeah, Paul contradicted himself,

Again Keep believing you can earn your salvation, I am done trying to talk to you. I will place you in my prayer list with the rest of your buddies who are there.
Once saved always saved is what creates the contradiction.

We know 'once saved always saved' is not true because Paul tells the saved Galatians that if they go back to the old covenant for justification they will be slaves. Slaves who are not heirs along with the sons of the New Covenant. That's what he told them.
 

Ralph-

Senior Member
Aug 10, 2017
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Again Keep believing you can earn your salvation
You must believe, and continue to believe, in order to be saved when Jesus comes back. That's hardly the works gospel Paul warned us about.

Like the Galatians, if you turn away from faith in Christ for justification you will become a slave. A slave who is not an heir with the sons of the New Covenant. You will lose the effect of Jesus' sacrifice, the Holy Spirit, and eternal life.
 

Adstar

Senior Member
Jul 24, 2016
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There is no "great divide", there is simply one group labeling acts of obedience as acts of merit. Attempting to push faith alone regeneration theology to its logical conculsion, antinomianism.
I just looked up antianisim on wiki..

From Wikipedia:::
In Christianity, an antinomian is one who takes the principle of salvation by faith and divine grace to the point of asserting that the saved are not bound to follow the moral law contained in the Ten Commandments.[2][3] The distinction between antinomian and other Christian views on moral law is that antinomians believe that obedience to the law is motivated by an internal principle flowing from belief rather than from any external compulsion
I agree with this..

Once one believes they are ""bound to follow the moral law"" one is in bondage.. But if one believes and trusts in the moral law of God one will follow it out of agreement and trust in the LORD..

But once one feels bound to follow it, then failure to do so can only lead to ones eternal damnation because one has failed to perform what one believes they in bondage to perform..
 

Adstar

Senior Member
Jul 24, 2016
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Jesus is right here, AT MY HOUSE... you're welcome to come over any time.

To be honest he has this whole weird "omnipresent" thing going on, so you might be able to catch him someplace closer, but you're still welcome to come over.

BTW, when I said you were welcome to come over I didn't mean for eternity.
I know you want to be with Jesus for eternity, and that's great, but I was just thinking about lunch.
-
Of course Jesus is with me now in Spirit.. But I will be with him, in physical presence, forever one day where ever that may be.. Remember Jesus still has His glorified physical body He ascended into heaven in a physical body and will return in like manor as the angels told the apostles.. And we also who are followers of Jesus will likewise receive glorified eternal bodies too..
 

Woodsy

New member
Jun 9, 2018
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If you think people can lose their salvation.... Have you lost yours? If not how have you stayed saved? If you have how did you get it back and get to go to heaven now? Do you know you will go to heaven?
My husband and I were just talking about this. I believe that salvation is always available to us. I believe that in God's infinite love and wisdom he understood many of us might struggle with the idea of eternal love and redemption. It is after all sometimes easier to believe we are not worth saving. But with all my heart I do believe the gates of heaven are open to anyone who is willing to accept salvation and allow themselves to feel the limitless love of God.
 

Ralph-

Senior Member
Aug 10, 2017
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Once one believes they are ""bound to follow the moral law"" one is in bondage.. But if one believes and trusts in the moral law of God one will follow it out of agreement and trust in the LORD..

But once one feels bound to follow it, then failure to do so can only lead to ones eternal damnation because one has failed to perform what one believes they in bondage to perform..
Paul calls it our obligation to not walk in the flesh but to walk in the Spirit:

"12So then, brethren, we are under obligation, not to the flesh, to live according to the flesh "-Romans 8:12

How you do that, and why, determines if you are trying to earn your salvation in a kind of works gospel. Being under obligation in and of itself does not constitute the works gospel for we are all under obligation to walk in righteousness. It's only bondage if we try to do it in our own strength, and if we do it to earn God's declaration of right standing with him. In contrast, the Spirit through our faith in Christ gives us the liberty to fulfill our obligation to walk in righteousness.
 

Adstar

Senior Member
Jul 24, 2016
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Paul calls it our obligation to not walk in the flesh but to walk in the Spirit:

"12So then, brethren, we are under obligation, not to the flesh, to live according to the flesh "-Romans 8:12

How you do that, and why, determines if you are trying to earn your salvation in a kind of works gospel. Being under obligation in and of itself does not constitute the works gospel for we are all under obligation to walk in righteousness. It's only bondage if we try to do it in our own strength, and if we do it to earn God's declaration of right standing with him. In contrast, the Spirit through our faith in Christ gives us the liberty to fulfill our obligation to walk in righteousness.
So Ralph what will happen to a person if they fail to live up to the ""obligation"" of doing the law and avoiding sinning?

If there is an obligation then there must be a penalty for failing to fulfill the obligation right???
 

Ralph-

Senior Member
Aug 10, 2017
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So Ralph what will happen to a person if they fail to live up to the ""obligation"" of doing the law and avoiding sinning?

If there is an obligation then there must be a penalty for failing to fulfill the obligation right???
If you are a believer the penalty for your sin is covered by the continuing ministry of Christ in heaven:

"He (Jesus) is able also to save forever those who draw near to God through Him, since He always lives to make intercession for them."-Hebrews 7:25


If you are sinning because you have departed from faith in Christ and have gone back to the world then you will pay the penalty for your sin when Jesus returns:

"26If we deliberately keep on sinning after we have received the knowledge of the truth, no sacrifice for sins is left, 27but only a fearful expectation of judgment and of raging fire that will consume the enemies of God. "-Hebrews 10:26-27
 

Adstar

Senior Member
Jul 24, 2016
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If you are a believer the penalty for your sin is covered by the continuing ministry of Christ in heaven:

"He (Jesus) is able also to save forever those who draw near to God through Him, since He always lives to make intercession for them."-Hebrews 7:25


If you are sinning because you have departed from faith in Christ and have gone back to the world then you will pay the penalty for your sin when Jesus returns:

"26If we deliberately keep on sinning after we have received the knowledge of the truth, no sacrifice for sins is left, 27but only a fearful expectation of judgment and of raging fire that will consume the enemies of God. "-Hebrews 10:26-27
So if you are a Christian Jesus covers your failure.. So in the end there is no penalty for sin for a Christian.. Therefore there is no real obligation or bounding upon Christians to stop sinning or to never fail to do a good work..

Therefore using the words bound and obligation in calls for people not to sin and to do good works is wrong.. Because we Christians are not in bondage to the Law..

As for the those who have rejected the LORD Jesus Christ, i agree with you.. They will be judged and condemned to eternal fire for their transgressions against the Law..
 

Ralph-

Senior Member
Aug 10, 2017
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So if you are a Christian Jesus covers your failure..
For the believing (present tense) Christian, his sin is covered by the blood of Christ.


So in the end there is no penalty for sin for a Christian.. Therefore there is no real obligation or bounding upon Christians to stop sinning or to never fail to do a good work..
The person who chooses to live unchanged in the sins of the flesh thinking those sins are covered by the blood is not the believer he thinks he is. He will be tossed into the lake of fire when Jesus comes back. The presence of saving faith is signified by the desire and the ability to live for Jesus in a changed/changing life, not live in the old life.



Therefore using the words bound and obligation in calls for people not to sin and to do good works is wrong.. Because we Christians are not in bondage to the Law..
Because I did not agree to the premise you laid out, everything after the 'therefore' in your statement is not a fair conclusion to draw from what I said.

The Bible is clear that the professing Christian must walk as Jesus did and turn away from sin. In the most simple explanation, not doing that simply shows you to not be the believer you say that you are (not 'you', personally, but anybody).


As for the those who have rejected the LORD Jesus Christ, i agree with you.. They will be judged and condemned to eternal fire for their transgressions against the Law..
And that's what willful, wanton sin is.........a contemptuous, unbelieving rejection of Christ. The one who says they are saved through faith in Christ but lives in willful, wanton sin is not trusting in the blood of Christ as he thinks he is. He is living in contemptuous unbelief and is not trusting in the blood of Christ at all. Even though the words out of his mouth claim that he is. He will be destroyed along with the enemies of God when Christ returns.

People who are trusting in the blood of Christ for justification don't, at the same time, willfully live in the old life. The person who does that, thinking they are saved no matter how they live, is deceived. Paul warned us to not be deceived: The person who lives in the sins of the flesh will not enter into the kingdom of God. IOW, they are living in unbelief and will not be saved when Jesus comes back. It's that simple. No 'once saved always saved' argument is going to save them on that day.
 

MattforJesus

Senior Member
Apr 15, 2017
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If you think people can lose their salvation.... Have you lost yours? If not how have you stayed saved? If you have how did you get it back and get to go to heaven now? Do you know you will go to heaven?
2Ti 2:19 Nevertheless the foundation of God standeth sure, having this seal, The Lord knoweth them that are his. And, Let every one that nameth the name of Christ depart from iniquity.

Mat 7:21 Not every one that saith unto me, Lord, Lord, shall enter into the kingdom of heaven; but he that doeth the will of my Father which is in heaven.
Mat 7:23 And then will I profess unto them, I never knew you: depart from me, ye that work iniquity.

Gal 5:16 This I say then, Walk in the Spirit, and ye shall not fulfil the lust of the flesh.
Gal 5:22 But the fruit of the Spirit is love, joy, peace, longsuffering, gentleness, goodness, faith,
Gal 5:23 Meekness, temperance: against such there is no law(because they are not sinning, so the law cannot touch them for prosecution).
Gal 5:24 And they that are Christ's have crucified the flesh with the affections and lusts.
Gal 5:25 If we live in the Spirit, let us also walk in the Spirit.

2Ti 3:4 lovers of pleasures more than lovers of God;
2Ti 3:5 Having a form of godliness, but denying the power thereof(led by flesh, not by Spirit, because they hold unto sin, and think they are right with God): from such turn away.
2Ti 3:6 For of this sort are they which creep into houses, and lead captive silly women laden with sins, led away with divers lusts,
2Ti 3:7 Ever learning, and never able to come to the knowledge of the truth(that they have to abstain from sin by the Spirit to be right with God).

1Co 10:12 Wherefore let him that thinketh he standeth take heed lest he fall.
1Co 10:13 There hath no temptation taken you but such as is common to man: but God is faithful, who will not suffer you to be tempted above that ye are able; but will with the temptation also make a way to escape, that ye may be able to bear it(will be able to beat temptation).

Heb 10:26 For if we sin wilfully(sin on purpose when we know it is wrong) after that we have received the knowledge of the truth, there remaineth no more sacrifice for sins(if we hold unto sin the blood of Christ cannot wash it away),
Heb 10:27 But a certain fearful looking for of judgment and fiery indignation, which shall devour the adversaries.

A person that hates sin, and does not want sin, by the Spirit can abstain from sin, and sin does affect our relationship with God.

Do people care to abstain from sin, and hate sin, and do not want sin, and mean it, and are sincere, for without that attitude a person cannot be saved, for they will hold unto sin and think they are right with God, and fall short.

A person knows whether they hate sin, or like sin but make an excuse.

Rom 11:20 Well; because of unbelief they were broken off, and thou standest by faith. Be not highminded, but fear:
Rom 11:21 For if God spared not the natural branches, take heed lest he also spare not thee.
Rom 11:22 Behold therefore the goodness and severity of God: on them which fell, severity; but toward thee, goodness, if thou continue in his goodness: otherwise thou also shalt be cut off.

Heb 3:7 Wherefore (as the Holy Ghost saith, To day if ye will hear his voice,
Heb 3:8 Harden not your hearts, as in the provocation, in the day of temptation in the wilderness:
Heb 3:9 When your fathers tempted me, proved me, and saw my works forty years.
Heb 3:10 Wherefore I was grieved with that generation, and said, They do alway err in their heart; and they have not known my ways.
Heb 3:11 So I sware in my wrath, They shall not enter into my rest.)
Heb 3:12 Take heed, brethren, lest there be in any of you an evil heart of unbelief, in departing from the living God.
Heb 3:13 But exhort one another daily, while it is called To day; lest any of you be hardened through the deceitfulness of sin.

It is the same as the Old Testament for if you do not comply then you will be cut off, and the seal that seals the saints is they depart from iniquity, and a Spirit led life will not sin, and if they hold unto sin they are not led of the Spirit, andf it is the Spirit that seals them, but if they hold unto sin they are not sealed for they are not led of the Spirit.

Rom 13:10 Love worketh no ill to his neighbour: therefore love is the fulfilling of the law.

Mat 19:21 Jesus said unto him, If thou wilt be perfect, go and sell that thou hast, and give to the poor, and thou shalt have treasure in heaven: and come and follow me.

1Co 13:13 And now abideth faith, hope, charity, these three; but the greatest of these is charity(charity, love in action, is greater than faith).

1Co 13:2 And though I have the gift of prophecy, and understand all mysteries, and all knowledge; and though I have all faith, so that I could remove mountains, and have not charity, I am nothing.

1Ti 6:5 Perverse disputings of men of corrupt minds, and destitute of the truth, supposing that gain is godliness(monetary, material): from such withdraw thyself.
1Ti 6:6 But godliness with contentment is great gain.
1Ti 6:7 For we brought nothing into this world, and it is certain we can carry nothing out.
1Ti 6:8 And having food and raiment let us be therewith content.

1Ti 6:10 For the love of money is the root of all evil(for it neglects the poor and needy): which while some coveted after, they have erred from the faith, and pierced themselves through with many sorrows.

Jas 2:14 What doth it profit, my brethren, though a man say he hath faith, and have not works? can faith save him?
Jas 2:15 If a brother or sister be naked, and destitute of daily food,
Jas 2:16 And one of you say unto them, Depart in peace, be ye warmed and filled; notwithstanding ye give them not those things which are needful to the body(charity); what doth it profit?
Jas 2:17 Even so faith, if it hath not works, is dead, being alone.

1Jn 3:17 But whoso hath this world's good, and seeth his brother have need, and shutteth up his bowels of compassion from him, how dwelleth the love of God in him?
1Jn 3:18 My little children, let us not love in word, neither in tongue; but in deed and in truth(charity, love in action).

Do they care about the poor and needy by only going by their needs, and not their wants, and put people above their wants.

They know, and if a person goes by their wants and holds unto that attitude then they are not right with God.

A lot of people that claim Christ go by their wants, and then think they are right with God.

Heb 12:14 Follow peace with all men, and holiness, without which no man shall see the Lord:
Heb 12:15 Looking diligently lest any man fail of the grace of God; lest any root of bitterness springing up trouble you, and thereby many be defiled.

Mat 5:43 Ye have heard that it hath been said, Thou shalt love thy neighbour, and hate thine enemy.
Mat 5:44 But I say unto you, Love your enemies, bless them that curse you, do good to them that hate you, and pray for them which despitefully use you, and persecute you;
Mat 5:45 That ye may be the children of your Father which is in heaven: for he maketh his sun to rise on the evil and on the good, and sendeth rain on the just and on the unjust.
Mat 5:46 For if ye love them which love you, what reward have ye? do not even the publicans the same?
Mat 5:47 And if ye salute your brethren only, what do ye more than others? do not even the publicans so?
Mat 5:48 Be ye therefore perfect, even as your Father which is in heaven is perfect.

Do they love all people, or do they hate some people, which love does not belittle a person, and only wants good for the person even if the person is evil, for if a person hates a person they are not right with God.

They know whether they love all people or not.

If people do not act like Christ they cannot have salvation, but all sin can be forgiven, but we should have the attitude we are not right with God if we engage in sin.
 

SpoonJuly

Senior Member
Feb 16, 2018
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No, but we can see that for ourselves. Just as we can see for ourselves that they had the 'no once saved always saved' part correct.

We don't need church history to see what is plainly written in our Bibles. I'm pointing out that once saved always saved is actually a latter day teaching in the church. It was not part of Jesus teachings. The Apostles did not teach it. And the church fathers immediately after them rejected it. And it was rejected again when Augustine brought it up. It wasn't until the Reformation that Calvin succeeded in deceiving the church with once saved always saved. And now it's so bad it has morphed into the Hyper/Freegrace movement that says you can even deny Christ in outright unbelief and you will still be saved when Jesus comes back.
Your ignorance of the Bible is very evident.
 
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As the Believer came in by Faith, he remains in by the faith as well, and we are speaking of Faith in Christ and the Cross. The Cross must never be separated from Christ, as it regards what He there did.

And he said to them all, If any man will come after Me (the criteria for Discipleship), let him deny himself (not asceticism as many think, but rather that one denies one's own willpower, self-will, strength, and ability, depending totally on Christ), and take up his cross (the benefits of the Cross, looking exclusively to what Jesus did there to meet our every need) daily (this is so important, our looking to the Cross; that we must renew our Faith in what Christ has done for us, even on a daily basis, for Satan will ever try to move us away from the Cross as the Object of our Faith, which always spells disaster), and follow Me (Christ can be followed only by the Believer looking to the Cross, understanding what it accomplished, and by that means alone [Rom. 6:3-5, 11, 14; 8:1-2, 11; 1 Cor. 1:17-18, 21, 23; 2:2; Gal. 6:14; Eph. 2:13-18; Col. 3:14-15]). Luke 9:23

For whosoever will save his life shall lose it (try to live one's life outside of Christ and the Cross): but whosoever will lose his life for My sake, the same shall save it (when we place our Faith entirely in Christ and the Cross, looking exclusively to Him, we have just found "more Abundant Life" [John 10:10]) Luke 9:24

As far as trying to do something as it concerns taking up the Cross daily, we are to do nothing. In fact, it was already done at Calvary some two thousand years ago. On a daily basis, we should reinforce our Faith in Christ and what He has done for us at the Cross (Rom. 6:3-5; 8:2, Gal. 2:20-21, Col. 2:10-15). This is the "Truth" which we must learn, act upon, and continue to act upon, which guarantees the help of the Holy Spirit.

Very important: And whosoever does not bear his cross, and come after me, cannot be my disciple (Luke 14:27).

JSM
 

Adstar

Senior Member
Jul 24, 2016
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For the believing (present tense) Christian, his sin is covered by the blood of Christ.



The person who chooses to live unchanged in the sins of the flesh thinking those sins are covered by the blood is not the believer he thinks he is. He will be tossed into the lake of fire when Jesus comes back. The presence of saving faith is signified by the desire and the ability to live for Jesus in a changed/changing life, not live in the old life.
I was not talking about willful sin... I was talking about sin that is not willful... That is the sin that we sin because we are weak and faulty human beings.. No one,, And i mean No one who is saved is sinless.. Therefore anyone who says we are bound to achieve sinless living by ceasing to sin is preaching death to every human being on earth.. Because No one,, Ever,, becomes a sinless human being in this life time in this fallen condition...

Yes people should resist sin and they should also strive to do good, to love their neighbour.. But no one becomes sinless and preaching that one must cease sinning to maintain their salvation is not the Gospel message and it is a deception leading people to the pits of hell.. Because only the Gospel Way of salvation through the Atonement of Jesus can save us from the penalty of our sins.. Our salvation is not dependant on us ceasing to sin..