"Women keep silent in the churches": Has that ceased or is it still for today?

chiefofdisciples · Aug 24, 2013

Re: "Women keep silent in the churches": Has that ceased or is it still for today?

This commandment still stands yet it as well as others are not followed. God has a set of rules for male as well as female. He set difference between them. Yet how many loves God enough to keep His every commandment?

RoboOp · Aug 24, 2013

Re: "Women keep silent in the churches": Has that ceased or is it still for today?

Stephen63 said:

Hey Stephen you must have misread what I wrote. You're responding about 1 Cor 14 rather than 1 Tim 2. Regarding 1 Tim 2, you are actually saying that it is not referring to in the church, that it's referring to husband and wife, where it tells a woman to "learn in silence with entire submission", and not to "teach or have authority over a man".

The reason that people have great incentive to interpret the 1 Tim 2 passage as being about husband and wife, and outside of church, is because Paul bases it on creation:

"For Adam was created first, and then Eve".

This poses a big problem for anyone who maintains that the NT makes no distinction whatsoever between men and women with regard to permitted speaking, teaching, and leadership roles in the church.

Because if you acknowledge that 1 Tim 2 is talking about women and men in the church (like the parallel passage in 1 Cor 14), then you have to acknowledge that it's a universal principle based on creation -- you have to acknowledge that the NT does indeed make a distinction between men and women and their permitted roles in the church, a distinction which applies today, and universally.

It just seems real slippery, all the explanations that you've given.

Real slippery to say yes, 1 Cor 14 is about submission and women, about women asking questions, but yet to actually mean that that gender distinction in the church is just coz it just so happened that it was the women who were causing the problems in that particular place at that particular time, and though they can't "agitate" the leader, they can actually BE the leader, and though they can't ask questions they can do the teaching, the sermon, etc. (and even be the pastor), and that there actually is no principle of submission of women in the church as distinct from men -- to say that there's no difference. To say that yes women shouldn't "grasp for" authority (which applies just the same to men -- again no difference) but yet to actually mean that authority can be given to them and they can be the pastor. Then in the parallel passage of 1 Tim 2 that clearly makes a gender distinction and bases it on creation, to then deal with that by saying well that is not in the church. (Which then begs the question well if 1 Tim 2 actually means for women to "learn in silence with entire submission" with the husband outside of church, and not "teach or exercise authority" over the husband, then how in the world can we say that when the husband and wife step into the church that that can be suddenly be turned upside down and he's under her as the pastor teaching and having authority over him and all the men in the church -- that he and all the men are then "learning in silence with entire submission" under his wife as the pastor and teacher?)

That's my point. I doubt we'll reach any agreement (it's not the first time we've butted heads on this

) but at least I wanted to see how you or anyone can maintain such a position that there is no distinction whatsoever in the NT between men and women in church with regard to speaking, teaching, leadership, being the pastor, etc., and how you deal with passages like 1 Tim 2, and I just think it's important that we clearly state what we really mean.

For the record, I do understand that there are a few references in the NT that might make one think women were in charge on the church level, speaking in the church, etc., (and I'm trying to see it the way you and some others do), but for me I have to interpret somewhat obscure references in light of clear prescriptive passages that make clear distinctions between men and women in the church and formal teaching, which clearly say for women to be in subjection as distinct from men, and base it on creation ("Adam was created first"), on prior scripture ("as the Law also says"), and present it as "the Lord's command". Not to mention, we all agree (I think) about the roles in marriage, and it would simply be inconsistent to turn that upside down when husband and wife step into the church. And.......... not to mention ......... the way way things are done in the church does indeed spill over into the home. If people see a difference in God-given roles in the church, it's more likely to spill over into the home. If people see women in authority over men in the church....... then umm... well in the home.. umm you know.

So in summary I have to teach humble, loving, servant leadership of men in the home and the church, which actually is for the benefit of women and all and the church in general. And humility on the part of everyone. Heck, though I'm male, like most men, I haven't spoken in the church even once this year, and I have no leadership position, and I'm not complaining. But I try to bless others and be blessed in many ways outside of the pulpit, and most if not all of those ways women can freely do as well.

directline2iam · Aug 24, 2013

Re: "Women keep silent in the churches": Has that ceased or is it still for today?

NiceneCreed said:

Paul did not refer to them as apostles, you are interpreting that statement wrong. There were and are only 12 Apostles. That must be where those goofy Mormons get that non-sense. How many gates to the Kingdom of heaven will their be in Revelations? Who's words carry weight, who had the Authority here? The Twelve Apostles, not disciples. They were saying Among the Apostles opinions, those 2, Andronicus and Junia, were doing outstanding work in the Lord. Think about it.

directline2iam · Aug 24, 2013

Re: "Women keep silent in the churches": Has that ceased or is it still for today?

Stephen63 said:

Romans 16:7 (NASB) [SUP]7 [/SUP]Greet Andronicus and Junias, my kinsmen and my fellow prisoners, who are outstanding among the apostles, who also were in Christ before me.

Romans 16:7 (NLT) [SUP]7 [/SUP]Greet Andronicus and Junia, my fellow Jews, who were in prison with me. They are highly respected among the apostles and became followers of Christ before I did.

Outstanding - Greek Word: ἐπίσημοςTransliteration: episēmos
Phonetic Pronunciation:

ep-is'-ay-mos
Root: from <G1909> and some form of the base of <G4591>
Cross Reference: TDNT - 7:267,1015
Part of Speech: adj
Vine's Words: Notable, Of Note

Usage Notes:

English Words used in KJV:
notable 1
of note 1
[Total Count: 2]

from <G1909> (epi) and some form of the base of <G4591> (semaino); remarkable, i.e. (figurative) eminent :- notable, of note.

remarkable -worthy of being or likely to be noticed especially as being uncommon or extraordinary (speaks of excellence)
notable -
1. worthy of note or notice; noteworthy: a notable success; a notable theory.
2. prominent, important, or distinguished: many notable artists.
3. Archaic. capable, thrifty, and industrious.
noun
4. a prominent, distinguished, or important person.

The Apostle Paul has wonderful things to say about those who work with him. When he does, he usually talks about them being good servants, relating to their duties as they travel back and forth from him to the churches.

Here, Paul speaks of these two as being held in high regard among the apostles. This leaves us with two possible interpretations:
1. They were held in high regard as respected by the apostles.
2. They were held in high regard among the apostles, as holding the office.
We should ask this question: did Paul know all the other apostles? He would have had to to make the statement ''respected by the apostles''
But if Paul knew these two as of high regard as apostles, he wouldn't need to know all the other apostles. When Paul speaks about anybody, it's because he personally knows them.

Whether Junia was an apostle or not, she certainly wasn't just a helper in ministry or a deaconess. The statement of prominence and excellence speaks to her ministry. So as a Christian leader, one would have to believe she was up in the rankings somewhere in ministry.

It leaves you with two possible interpretations but it leaves the truth with one which is respected by the Apostles. There were only and are only 12. First you must learn what makes an Apostle an Apostle and above a disciple in rank.

directline2iam · Aug 24, 2013

Re: "Women keep silent in the churches": Has that ceased or is it still for today?

1still_waters said:

It says it is a command from the Lord so obviously it is still in effect cut and dry. But that isn't the problem with the verse, the problem is what is the truth of it? What does the verse mean? Apparently this verse needs much studying on this site. And as for women preaching in the pulpit, that is a Disregard to the word of God and an embarrassment to men.

Bookends · Aug 24, 2013

Re: "Women keep silent in the churches": Has that ceased or is it still for today?

Perhaps this just a command to for women to keep quite during message time, not a command to keep a learn and studied woman out of the pulpit. It doesn't say that women can't preach, but just to remain silent when someone is preaching.

homwardbound · Aug 24, 2013

Re: "Women keep silent in the churches": Has that ceased or is it still for today?

Bookends said:

If we all will just learn to consider our neighbor as God considered us in Love through Son Christ, we would thus have order; not in commandment, but in Mercy for each other, loving as God Loves found in 1 Cor. 13:4-13 in the born again Spirit, I see no male, female, Jew Greek and or Gentile in God' Spirit, or my Spirit born of God. Yet, In the Flesh I do and many problems curtail in that way of viewing things and flesh has to have Law to at least try to obey, but can't not perfectly as in the Spirit does

Jullianna · Aug 24, 2013

Re: "Women keep silent in the churches": Has that ceased or is it still for today?

brmicke said:

Juallianna - Since you seem to take my position on this issue (or more appropriately (IMO) we both take God's) I have a question for you. Without any bias please give us your opinion as a women.

1. Do you think it is more effective in bringing out true feminine characteristics when a Women is submissive to God's word (as we understand it) in this matter?

I believe that both women and men come closer to fulfilling all that God has designed them to be when they are in submission to God's will. I think that's the part a lot of people get wrong in that they have the idea that being in submission somehow makes one weak. It takes incredible strength of character to be submissive and obedient. Take Christ's submission to the will of the Father in following the path to the cross and His agony in the Garden of Gethsemane as an example. A godly, submissive woman is a STRONG woman. Is that feminine? I don't know. I just know it's God's will.

As I have observed the feminist attitude of challenging male authority it seems to cultivate in a wife/woman a continual state of angst, as she tries to maintain an attitude that demeans/demoralizes and challenges male authority at every opportunity.

2. If we are to be honest as Christians the situation that brings us the most en"Joy"ment and "Peace" (Rm 14:17), in our respective male/female roles should be the goal, as it is a given that God wants us to be happy and content. Do you regard this submission to male authority to be a chore and a demeaning endeavor, or do you regard it as "obedience" to God's word and a fulfillment of your femininity?

I really don't see it as a chore. Don't even think about it really. I simply take the Word of God as it is and try to live it out as the Spirit of God leads me. It makes life easier because I don't end up carrying burdens that God never intended me to bear. We tend to make life far more difficult than God ever intended it to be, while He wants us to become like children in matters of trusting/obedience.

2. Does this interpretation of God's word make you feel content as a women?

I feel that it is truly God you are submitting to (if our premise is correct). I should qualify this by saying that subordination to male authority is superfluous because submission to the word of God must take precedence in every case.

Exactly. I am not kneeling to men. I am yielding to God. Men are supposed to do no less.

3. Most Men find that when their innate masculinity is not challenged but complimented by a wonderful woman it is extremely attractive. Your husband (if you have one) is extraordinarily blessed in this regard.

It is truly not understood that God places the heaviest burden upon the masculine role. The wife is commanded to "respect" Her husband. The Husband however is required to "give His life" for His wife, Eph 5:21-33 .

21 ¶ Be subject to one another out of reverence for Christ.
22 Wives, be subject to your husbands, as to the Lord.
23 For the husband is the head of the wife as Christ is the head of the church, his body, and is himself its Savior.
24 As the church is subject to Christ, so let wives also be subject in everything to their husbands.
25 Husbands, love your wives, as Christ loved the church and (husband's commandment) - gave himself up for her,
26 that he might sanctify her, having cleansed her by the washing of water with the word,
27 that he might present the church to himself in splendor, without spot or wrinkle or any such thing, that she might be holy and without blemish.
28 Even so husbands should love their wives as their own bodies. He who loves his wife loves himself.
29 For no man ever hates his own flesh, but nourishes and cherishes it, as Christ does the church,
30 because we are members of his body.
31 "For this reason a man shall leave his father and mother and be joined to his wife, and the two shall become one flesh."
32 This mystery is a profound one, and I am saying that it refers to Christ and the church;
33 however, let each one of you love his wife as himself, and let the wife see that she (wife's commandment) - respects her husband.

Respectfully - Brian

I am a widow, but I was married for fifteen years. What a man needs most from his wife is her respect. What a woman needs most from her man is to be cherished. God knows this, of course. That's why the Word says what it does. A house built upon anything less than the Word of God will never be all it should or could be.

God bless you

Stephen63 · Aug 24, 2013

Re: "Women keep silent in the churches": Has that ceased or is it still for today?

directline2iam said:

Really? only 12? Even internet theologians know better than that. You exposed somebody, but not the one you intended.

GreenNnice · Aug 24, 2013

Re: "Women keep silent in the churches": Has that ceased or is it still for today?

homwardbound said:

This is what I'm saying too, the Lord leads me, I hope and pray, and, if no one wants to even comment on my past posts, fine, I am fine with that, I don't always piece my words together coherently, let alone, eloquently, that's just He in me leading, that I hope and pray , too

But, this is it to me !! homewardgoing says it well, nothing minced in His words !

We are to be IN the Spirit. Our flesh wants to tell us one thing, our Spirit another. There is a war going on inside us.

And, again, I reitierate my past posts' verses of NO confusion: Isaiah 55:8 and 1 Corinthians 2 passage at end of God's thoughts we can NOT know. Both say the same thing, Old Testament and New.

I do NOT believe ideally that women should preach, and, bookenders, says it how I say things, too, LOL, we don't agree on a lot of things of doctrine, but we do this, kind of. But, nah, I won't post his quote because you can go read it yourself, I guess, you got two legs and you got two eyes too

But, yes, 1 Cor. 14: 34-35 passage DOES say women should be silent in the church but it NOWHERE says that women can NOT preach.

It says women are to be silent and ask Q's at home to their husbands in 1 Cor. 14:34-35 . you read any more than that out of that passage there and you ain't reading the same bible I'm reading. This has absolutely NOTHING to do with women being able to be a pastor, it's strictly about husbands and wives. Based on this verse, you are NUTS to think they can't be pastor. You don't even need my Isaiah 55 verse nor 1 Cor. 2 verse to back it up ,LOL. But, yeah, then we get to 1 Tim. 2:12 and things change some. 1 Tim. 2:12 uses like words of 1 Cor. 14:34-34 , submission, be quiet, but, it, too, does not speak JUST to husbands and wives. It speaks to all women and 'Adam and Eve' refer to ORDER.

Ahhh, yes, the con-women pastor crowd just starting to finally love me now, LOL, don't get your hopes up, fair warning

Notice I said 'change some' in the paragraph two graphs above?

Here's where many think we are speaking of women not allowed to pastor or teach Sunday School over a man, EVER. YOU who believe this, don't mean "some times, women can teach in Sunday School over men" either YOU mean, NEVER , right , men ? Sure, you do. Sometimes, I wonder, if you had some gal teach a class and run off with your husband, so, you're bitter about this subject. Whatever. Just speculating why one could become so 'hardened' to a woman teaching a Sunday School class, women have MUCH wisdom

But, we come back to the word , 'order,' where Paul distinctly makes the distinction of man formed first and then woman and woman sinned and not man. So, this is ORDER. But, what of the order? Who is after man? Woman

She's not first in the order, but, she is IN the order. Get that ?

I don't know, yeah, OK, moving on. 1 Tim. 2:12 certainly makes it possible to believe that women should be quiet in church and submissive, paralleling much of the thought of 1 Cor. 14: 34-35, actually.

But, there is more here than meets the eye, too. What is it ! It is interpretation of the word 'teach,' and the words 'have authority.' Also the words 'I suffer not,' with Paul speaking. Again, are these 'confusion' words and God is 'not the author of confusion.' ? ? ? Sure. Obviously, we've been arguing this for how many pages now , LOL ?

What is NOT confusing is what homewardgoing said in his above quote. Similar things too we are Spirit-led folk, His Spirit in us, and, flesh is led by other things, like following the law, having to follow it.

The verses I listed CAN be confusing but are they? We don't know what God is doing, we might THINK we know it best that women NEVER should be a pastor over men, but we don't really KNOW, do we ? For God says in Isaiaih 55:8, "My ways are NOT your ways and My thoughts are higher than your thoughts.' God is ABOVE us in thought and way of doing things. Do you understand that, can I say, 'mysticism' of God, that mystery of godliness ? ?

So, do I ideally think women should be pastor over men ?? NO ! It's not ideal, but, can God call a woman to pastor a church, and, I most certainly think it's totally EXTREME that a woman can't teach a Sunday School class to a man, can He ? Yes ! SHe can.

So, in a nutshell, I believe all things are possible by God, NOT ideal is a woman teaching a man, per Scripture's CONFUSION on the subject. But possible? You bet ! And, preach a woman will when God CALLS her .

An example of a woman becoming pastor , green? Ok. It's done this 'way,' when God sees NO man step to the plate and become pastor of a church. Most likely scenario is a smalltown where there are only a few men--and none will become pastor--so a woman is CALLED by God to be a pastor of some church in Nobody, Idaho, or some other "Population: 60" town.

So, whether it's a woman pastor of 10,000 or 60, that's God's call and we should not conspire against His calling , should we ? With the 10,000, I think, that a man will likely come to the forefront unless the woman is doing a great job and producing fruit for that church--many coming to Christ-- and her words are really resonating with the congregation.

WE liken this verse to marriage but it's more than that, is it not: What God has brought together, let no man tear asunder.

Final question: When you see the obvious--a woman pastor over entire man-woman congregation--do you assume that its wrong based on what you know from 'confusing' Scripture, or, do you realize that God's leading things by His Spirit and that, quite possibly, YOUR spirit is acting in the flesh, and, not in the Spirit of His leading THIS CHURCH in this WAY

homwardbound · Aug 25, 2013

Re: "Women keep silent in the churches": Has that ceased or is it still for today?

Matthew 26:41 Watch and pray, that ye enter not into temptation: the spirit indeed is willing, but the flesh is weak.

What are men in all honesty usually led by? Flesh or Spirit, what is weak?

Now in the Corinthian Church at the time it was the women that were preaching were from the brothel above the Church, with shaven heads and showing.
So why did Paul say what Paul said? what were these men being led by? Yes their Puberty, and what was going on in the Corinthian Church.
So is it goof for a Woman to preach? men being led by

Stephen63 · Aug 26, 2013

Re: "Women keep silent in the churches": Has that ceased or is it still for today?

RoboOp said:

When looking at 2Timothy 2:12, we must look at biblical context & historical context, with Biblical context being key. The order should be similar to this:
1. The context of the book.
2. Context of the chapter.
3. Related context in other books of the Bible.
4. Historical context.
When we look at this scripture, we find nothing in the chapter context that speaks of authority of office.
Because Timothy was the pastor of the church of Ephesus, we should search the book of Ephesians for scripture teaching about problems with women in the church. Here's what we have:

Ephesians 5:22-24 (KJV) 22 Wives, submit yourselves unto your own husbands, as unto the Lord. 23 For the husband is the head of the wife, even as Christ is the head of the church: and he is the saviour of the body. 24 Therefore as the church is subject unto Christ, so let the wives be to their own husbands in every thing.

Paul always wrote to the churches about problems the churches had. Why did Paul have to write about wives'submission to their husbands?

Historical context as well as Biblical context tells us there was a major problem with idol worship in Ephesus:

Acts 19:21-41 (KJV) 21 After these things were ended, Paul purposed in the spirit, when he had passed through Macedonia and Achaia, to go to Jerusalem, saying, After I have been there, I must also see Rome. 22 So he sent into Macedonia two of them that ministered unto him, Timotheus and Erastus; but he himself stayed in Asia for a season. 23 And the same time there arose no small stir about that way. 24 For a certain man named Demetrius, a silversmith, which made silver shrines for Diana, brought no small gain unto the craftsmen; 25 Whom he called together with the workmen of like occupation, and said, Sirs, ye know that by this craft we have our wealth. 26 Moreover ye see and hear, that not alone at Ephesus, but almost throughout all Asia, this Paul hath persuaded and turned away much people, saying that they be no gods, which are made with hands: 27 So that not only this our craft is in danger to be set at nought; but also that the temple of the great goddess Diana should be despised, and her magnificence should be destroyed, whom all Asia and the world worshippeth. 28 And when they heard these sayings, they were full of wrath, and cried out, saying, Great is Diana of the Ephesians. 29 And the whole city was filled with confusion: and having caught Gaius and Aristarchus, men of Macedonia, Paul's companions in travel, they rushed with one accord into the theatre. 30 And when Paul would have entered in unto the people, the disciples suffered him not. 31 And certain of the chief of Asia, which were his friends, sent unto him, desiring him that he would not adventure himself into the theatre. 32 Some therefore cried one thing, and some another: for the assembly was confused; and the more part knew not wherefore they were come together. 33 And they drew Alexander out of the multitude, the Jews putting him forward. And Alexander beckoned with the hand, and would have made his defence unto the people. 34 But when they knew that he was a Jew, all with one voice about the space of two hours cried out, Great is Diana of the Ephesians. 35 And when the townclerk had appeased the people, he said, Ye men of Ephesus, what man is there that knoweth not how that the city of the Ephesians is a worshipper of the great goddess Diana, and of the image which fell down from Jupiter? 36 Seeing then that these things cannot be spoken against, ye ought to be quiet, and to do nothing rashly. 37 For ye have brought hither these men, which are neither robbers of churches, nor yet blasphemers of your goddess. 38 Wherefore if Demetrius, and the craftsmen which are with him, have a matter against any man, the law is open, and there are deputies: let them implead one another. 39 But if ye enquire any thing concerning other matters, it shall be determined in a lawful assembly. 40 For we are in danger to be called in question for this day's uproar, there being no cause whereby we may give an account of this concourse. 41 And when he had thus spoken, he dismissed the assembly.

It is not a secret that worshipers of Diana believed in female superiority. So it is not a far stretch to assume that women in the church of Ephesus coming out of idol worship would have brought some baggage with them.

Here's what we have in context:

Paul writing to the church of Ephesus about the wives' role of submission to their husbands.
Paul writing to Timothy about women's dress and behavior.
The biggest religious group in Ephesus was Diana worship, that brought with it female superiority.
There is nothing in the New Testament about anyone else grasping authority except for this one place, and notice how it's written: 3 John 1:9-11 (KJV) 9 I wrote unto the church: but Diotrephes, who loveth to have the preeminence among them, receiveth us not. 10 Wherefore, if I come, I will remember his deeds which he doeth, prating against us with malicious words: and not content therewith, neither doth he himself receive the brethren, and forbiddeth them that would, and casteth them out of the church. 11 Beloved, follow not that which is evil, but that which is good. He that doeth good is of God: but he that doeth evil hath not seen God.

Notice that when you read what John says, there's absolutely no doubt of what the person is doing and how he's doing it. It is plainly explained. No twisting needs to be done.

There's no other scripture in the NT about people "grasping authority" in the church. But everywhere in the epistles it speaks of submission. The apostles teach nowhere in scripture about how leaders are to use their authority. It's always about how the members should submit to those in authority.

My conclusion is this: multitudes of people in agreement do not take precedence over the canon & context of scripture.

There's a saying: "God said it, I believe it, and that settles it". This is a lie from Hell. Us believing it doesn't help to settle anything. The truth of the matter is that "God said it, and that settles it, whether anyone believes it or not". If anybody has usurped authority in the church, it's men with their "traditions of the elders" that is no different than the Sanhedrin Council of Jesus' day. Instead of building up the church, they're making the word of God of none effect.

There's nothing "slippery" about using context. It becomes "slippery" when people pull out scripture away from its context to prove a point.

RickShafer · Aug 26, 2013

Re: "Women keep silent in the churches": Has that ceased or is it still for today?

Women need to shut up and let men lead!
No matter what happens, it is God's will for men(any kind), to lead women(any kind);.....ANYWHERE!
Brothers and sisters in Christ, why don't we see this!!!!

All men are to always lead all women any and everywhere.
- That is God's will.

Any woman who thinks she is called of God is mistaken if she ever leads a man anywhere!

Everyone should know that Eve was made for Adam....and that has nothing to do with marriage or ministry.....it has to do with her(all women) being made for him (all men).

God certainly made this clear concerning Deborah and Esther and David's great grandmother Ruth - (who did she think she was interposing into the genealogy of Christ!)

I speak as a fool.

B.T.W. - Mother Theresa!!!! Who did she think she was....helping all those infirmed.(She should have done it under a man's ministry!)

RickShafer · Aug 26, 2013

Re: "Women keep silent in the churches": Has that ceased or is it still for today?

- - -A post so nice I had to do it twice.

RoboOp · Aug 26, 2013

Re: "Women keep silent in the churches": Has that ceased or is it still for today?

RickShafer said:

Well if you really meant to do that, sorry I deleted the duplicate before I scrolled down and saw this one!

RickShafer · Aug 26, 2013

Re: "Women keep silent in the churches": Has that ceased or is it still for today?

RoboOp said:

Ha!!! No, I didn't mean to. I was correcting something in the post and added a sentence and viola! - Two posts came out.
- (I'm just glad you didn't delete both)

- - Meant in humor.....all my posts are meant in fun unless there are a whole bunch of bible verses.

Ariel82 · Aug 26, 2013

Re: "Women keep silent in the churches": Has that ceased or is it still for today?

RickShafer said:

<cough, cough> she did do it under a man's authority: the Pope's. She was a Catholic nun.

RickShafer · Aug 26, 2013

Re: "Women keep silent in the churches": Has that ceased or is it still for today?

Ariel82 said:

What? So a woman who lives among the least to nurse them is married to the controller of Vatican City?
Sorry, ....I quite didn't see that.
- - Thanks for the correction.

- - - (I'm sure she enjoyed many freshly squeezed grape juices from diamond encrusted golden goblets with him.)
- - - - Called a corporation. She was as married to the Pope as the lowest gofer in microsoft is tied to Bill Gates.

RickShafer · Aug 26, 2013

Re: "Women keep silent in the churches": Has that ceased or is it still for today?

Catholic - BAD!
Protestant - GOOD!
Haaaa, Ha,Ha!

resurrection33 · Aug 26, 2013

Re: "Women keep silent in the churches": Has that ceased or is it still for today?

1still_waters said:

Jesus told us to be just:

Woe to you, scribes and Pharisees, hypocrites! for you tithe mint and dill and cummin, and have neglected the weightier matters of the law, justice and mercy and faith; these you ought to have done, without neglecting the others. Matt 23:23 RSV

I don’t see how it is just to prevent women from speaking in church.

"Women keep silent in the churches": Has that ceased or is it still for today?

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