Women submitting to their husbands

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CristenJ

Guest
#21
Oops...to add to that, submission is also backing off if that's what your husband needs.

To wwjd, try to look at it this way: God tells us to submit, and that often means following the lead of our husbands. Meaning, letting them make the decisions a lot of the time. Even if it is the wrong decision. Now, IF it turns out to be a bad choice or the wrong one, the woman has still submitted, has still obeyed God. Therefore, she has put her trust in the Lord. And because she has both obeyed and trusted God, don't you think God will take care of her, even if her husband has led her to a bad place?
 
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wwjd_kilden

Guest
#22
Well yeah, I just know that I'm the kind of person that always speaks my mind, but yes, I probably would leave it to him, unless I believed it would be direct harm to someone I cared for. - I trust the Lord, but I believe he expects me to use my brain now and then.
 
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CristenJ

Guest
#23
;) Obviously. I figure if God didn't intend for women to think, He wouldn't have given us that particular ability, along with such loud voices. :p
 
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wwjd_kilden

Guest
#24
hehe :p exactly
 
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Harley_Angel

Guest
#25
I definately think that the rising divorce rate is caused a lot by women not submitting to their husbands and husbands not fulling loving their wives as themselves. My mother was raised beliving it was the wife's duty to do whatever the husband said, go to whatever church he tells her to go to, make whatever he wants for dinner, do all the child rearing, all of the housework, and generally make it so when the husband comes home he doesn't have to lift a finger. In the end she became very depressed and is now an extreme alcoholic.

While I agree it's a wife's duty to obey and serve her husband, I don't think a husband who loves you fully would tell you what church you can go to, especially if you aren't getting the spiritual nurishment you need at the church he goes to (I became an atheist after my step-father dragged me to a church where I felt unwelcomed). I dont' think a loving husband would come home and sit on his butt and do nothing to help his wife, either, or not help with the children.

There is definately a balance. If your husband loves you completely as he loves himself, he's not going to ask you to do things that make you uncomfortable or are beyond you. Would he ask himself to do something that makes him uncomfortable or beyond his abilities? Probably not. But, more and more we are giving in to our lusts as a basis for marriage and men are not marrying wives who they could love as themselves, and women are not marrying men who they could happily submit to.

No marriage is perfect, but I got incredibly lucky in the husband I have. We make decisions together, he asks my opinions and input, especially on things I may have more experience or knowledge over, but ultimately the decision in the end is his own and I do my best to make it work out if it's not what I suggested or if he'd like to try something different. He never asks me to do something against my values, or that is uncomfortable to me, or is too hard for me. He helps me do housework that is difficult (like carrying the big laundry hamper down the stairs and to the laundry room). And in return, I cook him meals, help him with his own work, give him advice, and insight, and all my love. He doesn't insist on my submission, ever, because he doesn't have to. He loves me and treats me in a way that I want to be his helper, I want to please him.

I'm a very strong willed woman, very, very, very stubborn. I was raised by a stepfather who would pretend like he knew everything in the world, and would even tell you something that was completely wrong just so he could sound smart, and then ground you if you challenged him with factual evidence. He meant to make me submissive to men, but all he did was make me even more persistant to be "better" than men. In all my relationships I was always the one who "wore the pants", and I dated a lot of men who were very weak-willed. I almost married one just because he would do whatever I asked him to, and it seemed convienant to have that quality in a husband, but it just felt wrong. Then lo and behold, I go and marry a man who's just as stubborn and strong-willed as I am. He's intelligent, too. In order to make it easier for me to let him make the final decision when it's not what I think is right, I tell myself, "This man is intelligent, and I do not know everything in this world or what the outcomes will be. Letting him try something that I don't agree with may work, and if it doesn't, we'll know from then on that it doesn't work, and we'll try something different." By reminding myself that I DON'T know everything, and that there is nothing wrong from learning from mistakes, it makes it sooooo much easier to let him go left when I can see the restaurant on the right and not throttle him. Of course, he loves me enough not to throttle me when I stick my tongue out and say I TOLD YOU SO when we arrive at the restaurant on the right 30 minutes later ;)
 
Jan 8, 2009
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#26
Well the headship of man goes back to creation, not the curse. God made man first, and made the woman to be a helper for the man. That's the real basis of the Lord's command for wives to submit to their husbands.
That's true, yet we see the verse speaking of the husband ruling over the wife, comes after the fall and is part of the curse. The woman being in subjection would be less pleasant than it was before the fall.
 
Jan 8, 2009
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#27
Obviously. I figure if God didn't intend for women to think, He wouldn't have given us that particular ability, along with such loud voices
Well you're blessed to be educated, many women in the world aren't allowed to learn.
 
Jan 8, 2009
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#28
1Ti 2:15 Notwithstanding she shall be saved in childbearing, if they continue in faith and charity and holiness with sobriety.

Adam's curse was having to work the ground.
Eve's curse was pain in childbirth and husband ruling over her.

From scripture we get that:
The man's duties are seen in public, working hard etc.
The woman's duties are in the home, domestic duties, child bearing etc.
 
P

Ph8

Guest
#29
what does it mean to submit? i usre wish i had a bible handy, but we are told in the bible to submit to those in authority, we are told to obey the laws of the land, but early roman christians did not, and correctly so. to do so would have required caesar worship. clearly we are to submit if it is not contra-biblical, so it can't be morally or ethically questionable. No husband can "order" his wife to submit to a morally, ethically and of course contra biblical command. The wife is to submit as the husband is submitted to Christ. the husband has a deep responsibility to seek the counsel of the Spirit, research the word of God and hence his leadership is contigent upon his being in harmony with the Lord. it is a womans duty to seek that which glorifies the Lord, and if her husband is not walking upright or has stumbled it certainly is her duty to correct her husband. we are told that teachers and ministers are under extra judgement because they have positions of authority, and husbands are warned inthe bible that if they do not treat their wives correclty their prayers are hindered. so while a wife is to submit it is certainly NOT a carte blanche for male tyranny. it is rather an obligation for the husband to assume leadership by his submission to God and loving his wife as Christ loved the church, sacrificing himself as needed for the benefit and good of the church, and a man for his wife. when all else fails, and couple cannot agree, that's what pastors and respected christian peers are for, advice and counsel.
 
Jan 8, 2009
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#30
Put it this way. You probably wouldn't want to submit as the bible says to do in the old testament or in Jewish, even new testament, culture. You'd be looking and acting like one of those Taliban wives. Best to ignore the bible on this point, as it was written in ancient times not in modern times. Western women think they submit but by those ancient (Taliban style) standards, I don't think we can really have an idea of what submission means. Nor can we really understand in our society what Paul said about women being in silence (1 Ti 2:12). So I wouldn't look to the bible for how to submit literally, but do what God puts in your heart.
 
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Jan 31, 2009
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#31
I definately think that the rising divorce rate is caused a lot by women not submitting to their husbands and husbands not fulling loving their wives as themselves. My mother was raised beliving it was the wife's duty to do whatever the husband said, go to whatever church he tells her to go to, make whatever he wants for dinner, do all the child rearing, all of the housework, and generally make it so when the husband comes home he doesn't have to lift a finger. In the end she became very depressed and is now an extreme alcoholic.

While I agree it's a wife's duty to obey and serve her husband, I don't think a husband who loves you fully would tell you what church you can go to, especially if you aren't getting the spiritual nurishment you need at the church he goes to (I became an atheist after my step-father dragged me to a church where I felt unwelcomed). I dont' think a loving husband would come home and sit on his butt and do nothing to help his wife, either, or not help with the children.

There is definately a balance. If your husband loves you completely as he loves himself, he's not going to ask you to do things that make you uncomfortable or are beyond you. Would he ask himself to do something that makes him uncomfortable or beyond his abilities? Probably not. But, more and more we are giving in to our lusts as a basis for marriage and men are not marrying wives who they could love as themselves, and women are not marrying men who they could happily submit to.

No marriage is perfect, but I got incredibly lucky in the husband I have. We make decisions together, he asks my opinions and input, especially on things I may have more experience or knowledge over, but ultimately the decision in the end is his own and I do my best to make it work out if it's not what I suggested or if he'd like to try something different. He never asks me to do something against my values, or that is uncomfortable to me, or is too hard for me. He helps me do housework that is difficult (like carrying the big laundry hamper down the stairs and to the laundry room). And in return, I cook him meals, help him with his own work, give him advice, and insight, and all my love. He doesn't insist on my submission, ever, because he doesn't have to. He loves me and treats me in a way that I want to be his helper, I want to please him.

I'm a very strong willed woman, very, very, very stubborn. I was raised by a stepfather who would pretend like he knew everything in the world, and would even tell you something that was completely wrong just so he could sound smart, and then ground you if you challenged him with factual evidence. He meant to make me submissive to men, but all he did was make me even more persistant to be "better" than men. In all my relationships I was always the one who "wore the pants", and I dated a lot of men who were very weak-willed. I almost married one just because he would do whatever I asked him to, and it seemed convienant to have that quality in a husband, but it just felt wrong. Then lo and behold, I go and marry a man who's just as stubborn and strong-willed as I am. He's intelligent, too. In order to make it easier for me to let him make the final decision when it's not what I think is right, I tell myself, "This man is intelligent, and I do not know everything in this world or what the outcomes will be. Letting him try something that I don't agree with may work, and if it doesn't, we'll know from then on that it doesn't work, and we'll try something different." By reminding myself that I DON'T know everything, and that there is nothing wrong from learning from mistakes, it makes it sooooo much easier to let him go left when I can see the restaurant on the right and not throttle him. Of course, he loves me enough not to throttle me when I stick my tongue out and say I TOLD YOU SO when we arrive at the restaurant on the right 30 minutes later ;)

adam said God it was that woman thy gavest me, eve said it was the serpent, and the serpent didn't have a leg to stand on
and all else that is wrong with our world well, let's just blame it on Harley_Angel's step father, of course he may not have a leg to stand on either. sounds like he might even be meaner than the serpent. always point the finger at someone else. I am sorry here but to say that someone cause you to be an atheist, is just crazy talk you are a strong willed woman but yet your step father made you be an atheist??
 
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Harley_Angel

Guest
#32
Each decision we make comes from somewhere, or stems from some experience we've had. My decision to become athiest was my decision but it was formed on the experiences I had with my step-father and with the church we went to. I'm not necessarily pointing fingers, and I think you are arguing the semantics of a very flawed English language. The point I had been trying to get across was that husbands are supposed to love their wife and be their spiritual leaders, but by forcing a woman to go somewhere that she is not getting spiritual nurishment isn't leading her towards God. The example I gave was my step-father pushing me into a situation I didn't want to be in, and how it ultimately led to me turning my back on Christianity.
 
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Groundhog

Guest
#33
Submit to one another out of reverence for Christ. (Ephesians 5:21)

Relationships between peers, whether they be in marriage, in the church, in friendships, or with total strangers, should not be about establishing dominance or power. If the two are submitting to one another, as Ephesians demands, treating each other with love, and putting the interests of each other before their own interests, they are on the right track.
 
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CristenJ

Guest
#34
Put it this way. You probably wouldn't want to submit as the bible says to do in the old testament or in Jewish, even new testament, culture. You'd be looking and acting like one of those Taliban wives. Best to ignore the bible on this point, as it was written in ancient times not in modern times. Western women think they submit but by those ancient (Taliban style) standards, I don't think we can really have an idea of what submission means. Nor can we really understand in our society what Paul said about women being in silence (1 Ti 2:12). So I wouldn't look to the bible for how to submit literally, but do what God puts in your heart.

I tend to disagree with one point here. That we can have no idea what submission really means...

I look at it this way:

The women you mention, they have never done anything BUT submit. They have never had the freedom we have, so when one of us, from the here and now, submits, it seems almost a greater accomplishment, because most of us aren't raised to submit to anyone else. Or, rather, we aren't beaten into submission. We have the choice, to submit or not, so when we CHOOSE to, we gain a better understanding of what it really means.

:)
 
Jul 6, 2009
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#35
Densetzu: Let's suppose your wife has this idea that you just suggested -- the idea that she should not submit to her husband in something if it's stupid. She should submit only if your decision is good, considerate, wise, etc. etc. in her mind.

Now here's the result: anytime your wife thinks that your decision is not the best decision, then she won't submit. So in other words, she only submits when she agrees.

Is that submission???
I guess not, but I'd rather have a smart wife than a submissive one. It just seems disturbingly sexist to me to expect my wife to submit to me even when she doesn't agree.
 

pickles

Senior Member
Apr 20, 2009
14,479
182
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#36
I have always believed that this was given out of wisdom. There has to be a final say in every marriage and it would have been difficult to come up with rules of whos in charge based on expeariance. With the final say though comes the husbands requirement of valueing his wives advice, then the desition, then taking responsibuility for that desision. Not so easy a task when you think about it. Many times my husband has acted on my advice and when those times when it did not work out he still took responsibuility for fixing it although he always has my help. To often both men and women mistake this as a whos in charge issue when it is really about whos responsible. I also have often felt that God gave men the mind for this, just as he gave us women the mind of multitasking and wisdom. Knowing that no matter the outcome my husband is going to take care of it gives me peace, also knowing he respects my advice gives me respect. God bless, pickles
 
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ariannaaa

Guest
#37
hahahah missy that really made me laugh. im embarrassed i didn't know i made it that obvious that this is something i care about haha...

i know what the Word says a husband's role is- but i dont think that its mine, or any woman's, place to worry about it. we need to be responsible for ourselves and being the best wives we can be.. and we need to trust our husbands to do the same.

i think this verse means that we are to be 100% submissive. This doesn't mean no communication.. we can express disagreement or if something is bothering us.. as long as we approach is from a point of humility, and keeping in mind at all times that we are to respect our husband and go to him as an authority figure. but if we express our discontent and he remains disuaded.. his word is the final one and we need to submit to that willingly. the bible calls us to be helpers and homemakers, winning our husbands by our conduct!

i just think thats amazing. winning someone over through how loving, respectful, and obediant you are. i think more of us should be eager for the opportunity to practice that.

as far as work roles are concerned, i dont think its right or wrong for a woman to work- it all depends on the circumstances. but i think that whether she works full time or not, it is still her role to perform all of the domesticated tasks, i.e. cooking, cleaning, etc. i may be traditional but i just think this is right.


:)
 

pickles

Senior Member
Apr 20, 2009
14,479
182
63
#38
hahahah missy that really made me laugh. im embarrassed i didn't know i made it that obvious that this is something i care about haha...

i know what the Word says a husband's role is- but i dont think that its mine, or any woman's, place to worry about it. we need to be responsible for ourselves and being the best wives we can be.. and we need to trust our husbands to do the same.

i think this verse means that we are to be 100% submissive. This doesn't mean no communication.. we can express disagreement or if something is bothering us.. as long as we approach is from a point of humility, and keeping in mind at all times that we are to respect our husband and go to him as an authority figure. but if we express our discontent and he remains disuaded.. his word is the final one and we need to submit to that willingly. the bible calls us to be helpers and homemakers, winning our husbands by our conduct!

i just think thats amazing. winning someone over through how loving, respectful, and obediant you are. i think more of us should be eager for the opportunity to practice that.

as far as work roles are concerned, i dont think its right or wrong for a woman to work- it all depends on the circumstances. but i think that whether she works full time or not, it is still her role to perform all of the domesticated tasks, i.e. cooking, cleaning, etc. i may be traditional but i just think this is right.


:)
When we married my husband and I made the desision that I would be home to care for our children and home. But caring for our home has never been my sole responcebuility. When he came home from work he never saw his day as ending. He always joined right in with me in all that needed to be done. Only when all was finished did we both sit down and relax together. I rarely do dishes because of this. A job I like the least. smiles. The true blessing of this is we had alot more time together, relaxing , talking or what ever we chose to do. We have always shared all the care of home , work and children. I believe this is the true way in a good marriage. God bless, pickles
 

RoboOp

Administrator
Staff member
Aug 4, 2008
1,419
667
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#39
We never hesitate to quote verses about the man's role, in total isolation, without any contingencies. When we talk about the husband loving his wife as Christ loved the church, we don't throw in a bunch of conditions, we don't feel the need to also quote the part about the wife submitting in everything (and making the husband's role conditional on whether or not she's doing her role).

It is -- or should be -- the same attitude when responding to the question here. The original question was about how far a woman should submit to her husband. Well, quoting direct verses (just as we would quote direct verses answering how far a husband should love a wife -- even a bad wife), here's what we find (I am bolding the parts that seem to answer the original question of this thread):

Eph 5: 22-24

22Wives, submit to your husbands as to the Lord. 23For the husband is the head of the wife as Christ is the head of the church, his body, of which he is the Savior. 24Now as the church submits to Christ, so also wives should submit to their husbands in everything.

1 Peter 3

1Wives, in the same way be submissive to your husbands so that, if any of them do not believe the word, they may be won over without words by the behavior of their wives, 2when they see the purity and reverence of your lives. 3Your beauty should not come from outward adornment, such as braided hair and the wearing of gold jewelry and fine clothes. 4Instead, it should be that of your inner self, the unfading beauty of a gentle and quiet spirit, which is of great worth in God's sight. 5For this is the way the holy women of the past who put their hope in God used to make themselves beautiful. They were submissive to their own husbands, 6like Sarah, who obeyed Abraham and called him her master. You are her daughters if you do what is right and do not give way to fear.
 

RoboOp

Administrator
Staff member
Aug 4, 2008
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667
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#40
Having said that (above), I would in no way hold a woman to a standard of perfection, just as I don't want anyone to hold me to a standard of perfection regarding loving my wife as Christ loved the church. But I humbly recognize that that's what it says (love my wife as Christ loved the church), and that that's what I must seek to do, with the Lord's help.

Same for Christian wives (seek to do all of what the scripture says in the post above, without a bunch of contingencies).
 
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