Works and Salvation

[eternally-gratefull]

It is not an example of NT salvation, do you think if someone were to put you on a cross today and you said what the thief said you would be saved?

Am I God? Do I have the power to save or not save?

The thief on the cross was saved the same way abraham and david were. they believed God and God accredited him with righteousness. Could it happen today the wame way? Of course it could. It has been how every man and woman has been saved since adam first sin, and will be saved until the last person living will be saved.

 

[Jabberjaw]

Just a quick question though would the thief on the cross have been saved if he did NOT do this?

John 6

[SUP]25 [/SUP]When they found him on the other side of the lake, they asked him, “Rabbi, when did you get here?”
[SUP]26 [/SUP]Jesus answered, “Very truly I tell you, you are looking for me, not because you saw the signs I performed but because you ate the loaves and had your fill. [SUP]27 [/SUP]Do not work for food that spoils, but for food that endures to eternal life, which the Son of Man will give you. For on him God the Father has placed his seal of approval.”
[SUP]28 [/SUP]Then they asked him, “What must we do to do the works God requires?”
[SUP]29 [/SUP]Jesus answered, “The work of God is this: to believe in the one he has sent.”

Mark 1

[SUP]14 [/SUP]After John was put in prison, Jesus went into Galilee, proclaiming the good news of God. [SUP]15 [/SUP]“The time has come,” he said. “The kingdom of God has come near. Repent and believe the good news!”

Luke 13

13 Now there were some present at that time who told Jesus about the Galileans whose blood Pilate had mixed with their sacrifices. [SUP]2 [/SUP]Jesus answered, “Do you think that these Galileans were worse sinners than all the other Galileans because they suffered this way? [SUP]3 [/SUP]I tell you, no! But unless you repent, you too will all perish. [SUP]4 [/SUP]Or those eighteen who died when the tower in Siloam fell on them—do you think they were more guilty than all the others living in Jerusalem? [SUP]5 [/SUP]I tell you, no! But unless you repent, you too will all perish.”

You have shown that to believe was more than having "faith alone", to "believe in Him who He has sent" is to "observe all things" He commanded them. Matt 28:20

 

[eternally-gratefull]

You have shown that to believe was more than having "faith alone", to "believe in Him who He has sent" is to "observe all things" He commanded them. Matt 28:20

those who have to belief WILL do those things

those who do not will not.

The focus is in faith, is it alivem or is it dead.

 

[Jabberjaw]

Am I God? Do I have the power to save or not save?

The thief on the cross was saved the same way abraham and david were. they believed God and God accredited him with righteousness. Could it happen today the wame way? Of course it could. It has been how every man and woman has been saved since adam first sin, and will be saved until the last person living will be saved.

They believed if they did not repent and pray Gods forgiveness they would not be saved, they feared God.

those who have to belief WILL do those things

those who do not will not.

The focus is in faith, is it alivem or is it dead.

When Peter asked to go out on the water to meet the Lord, his faith was worthless in the boat, it was dead faith until he by his own will, stepped out of the boat.

 

[eternally-gratefull]

They believed if they did not repent and pray Gods forgiveness they would not be saved, they feared God.

Oh you mean like the thief on the cross did?

When Peter asked to go out on the water to meet the Lord, his faith was worthless in the boat, it was dead faith until he by his own will, stepped out of the boat.

Oh? Then what caused peter to take the first step? Unbelief? Thats what your claiming, how can it be so.

and again, why did you ignore the question about the child who CLAIMS to have faith in the father, yet never obeys him. was not the kid lieing about his faith?

 

[Jabberjaw]

Oh you mean like the thief on the cross did?

Acts 10:1-2 (NKJV)
1 There was a certain man in Caesarea called Cornelius, a centurion of what was called the Italian Regiment, 2 a devout man and one who feared God with all his household, who gave alms generously to the people, and prayed to God always.

When did Cornelius believe? before Peter showed up or after? it was before, he "feared God", yet he had to "do something" besides just believ

Oh? Then what caused peter to take the first step? Unbelief? Thats what your claiming, how can it be so.

No, it was an obedient faith, not faith only, he had to do the work of stepping out of the boat, no matter how hard you try, you cannot expect God to save you if you do not obey him, Peter listened to the Lord when the Lord told him to "come", his faith was useless until he of his own free will (Jesus did not do the work for for him) of his own free will Peter stepped out of the boat.

and again, why did you ignore the question about the child who CLAIMS to have faith in the father, yet never obeys him. was not the kid lieing about his faith?

I answered the question, again because it is not what you wanted to hear, you reject it, I have addressed faith in my father in both obedience to him and disobedience.

Here it is again for you :

"If I never knew my father, how could I have faith in him? but if I knew him I would have faith in him, what mattered is what "accompanied" that faith, if it was obedience, I had faith my father would love and take care of me, if I was not obedient, I had faith my father would punish me, either way I had faith, what mattered is what made my father happy, my obedient works, or disobedient works. "

 

[eternally-gratefull]

Acts 10:1-2 (NKJV)
1 There was a certain man in Caesarea called Cornelius, a centurion of what was called the Italian Regiment, 2 a devout man and one who feared God with all his household, who gave alms generously to the people, and prayed to God always.

When did Cornelius believe? before Peter showed up or after? it was before, he "feared God", yet he had to "do something" besides just believ

Where does it say he believed in Jesus and his death? Fearing god in legalism is not the same as fearing God in faith (trusting him)

No where in the passage you posted did you show how the man feared God in faith of his forgiveness.

No, it was an obedient faith, not faith only,

No such thing as faith only. I keep trying to prove this to you people. but you keep ignoring the proof.

he had to do the work of stepping out of the boat, no matter how hard you try, you cannot expect God to save you if you do not obey him, Peter listened to the Lord when the Lord told him to "come", his faith was useless until he of his own free will (Jesus did not do the work for for him) of his own free will Peter stepped out of the boat.

So sad you do not even comprehend what faith is. You ignore the fact that Peter had to have faith in the first place to even take the first step. There was not faith alone, because there is no such thing,
No matter how hard you try, you will never be able to obey God in the way necessary for him to save you. so all your good deeds and acts of obedience are worth nothing concerning your salvation.

God is not going to save you if you do not have faith, So your point is mute. A dead faith is no faith at all. it is non existant.

I answered the question, again because it is not what you wanted to hear, you reject it, I have addressed faith in my father in both obedience to him and disobedience.

See, and you wonder why I ignored those two people. they played the same game.

I asked HOW A PERSON could have faith in SOMEONE they NEVER OBEY.

Your answer. I OBEY (which already twisted my question to make it your own question) since obeying even once would not answer my question. You guys do not understand what the word zero zip nada. no, non existant means. It like like asking how a person who has no water, and no access to water can survive, and you answer, well he had water. soo....

Here it is again for you :

"If I never knew my father, how could I have faith in him? but if I knew him I would have faith in him, what mattered is what "accompanied" that faith, if it was obedience, I had faith my father would love and take care of me, if I was not obedient, I had faith my father would punish me, either way I had faith, what mattered is what made my father happy, my obedient works, or disobedient works. "

1. If I never knew my father.. If your a child. you know your father (you have heard his words) so your already out of bounds to answer my question.
2. If you knew him, you would have faith in him. I did not ask you that. I asked how you can claim you have faith in him if you NEVER obeyed him.
3. What would matter is if I had obedience.. Again, you went off and did not listen to the question. The question is there was never any obedience. So again, your response was in error
4. either way I had faith -..Since you examples went outside the context of the question I had, this answer is nonresponsive. Because your examples were outside the scople of the person I asked if he realy has faith. You had fear of punishment, and obedience. I had no obedience whatsoever, so there was never any fear of punishment.

so would you like to try again? or continue to lie and say you answered my question?

 

[Jabberjaw]

Where does it say he believed in Jesus and his death? Fearing god in legalism is not the same as fearing God in faith (trusting him)

No where in the passage you posted did you show how the man feared God in faith of his forgiveness.


No such thing as faith only. I keep trying to prove this to you people. but you keep ignoring the proof.

You keep saying that, but then deny faith requires nothing else to be saved, as someone else pointed out, you speak out both sides of your mouth here.

So sad you do not even comprehend what faith is. You ignore the fact that Peter had to have faith in the first place to even take the first step. There was not faith alone, because there is no such thing,
No matter how hard you try, you will never be able to obey God in the way necessary for him to save you. so all your good deeds and acts of obedience are worth nothing concerning your salvation.

God is not going to save you if you do not have faith, So your point is mute. A dead faith is no faith at all. it is non existant.

Again, you make no sense what so ever, you say "dead faith" is non existent, yet what is it that is dead you say does not exist?

See, and you wonder why I ignored those two people. they played the same game.

No, I don't wonder, I know why you ignored them, because you cannot defend against what they have said, again, you said "dead faith" does not exist, if that is so, what is it that is dead that you say does not exist, then maybe you will see how ridicules your argument really is.

 

[eternally-gratefull]

You keep saying that, but then deny faith requires nothing else to be saved, as someone else pointed out, you speak out both sides of your mouth here.

Your the one speaking out of both sides of your mouth. You claim faith can be real apart from works. this is just not so.

Again, you make no sense what so ever, you say "dead faith" is non existent, yet what is it that is dead you say does not exist?

Is it alive? is it real? does it have power? Again you do not understand what faith means do you? (just like your buddies) faith means trust. Does trust not do something? You only refuse to do something because you do not trust the one who wants you to do it.

No, I don't wonder, I know why you ignored them, because you cannot defend against what they have said, again, you said "dead faith" does not exist, if that is so, what is it that is dead that you say does not exist, then maybe you will see how ridicules your argument really is.

How rediculous? You are the one who does not see the folly in what your saying. Your saying faith, which means trust, and an assurance, can have life (be real) I asked yuo to explain in an example where the real faith was. and you will not even answer it correctly. And you wonder why we go so nuts at the games you play?

 

[newbirth]

Am I God? Do I have the power to save or not save?

The thief on the cross was saved the same way abraham and david were. they believed God and God accredited him with righteousness. Could it happen today the wame way? Of course it could. It has been how every man and woman has been saved since adam first sin, and will be saved until the last person living will be saved.

Genesis 26 King James Version (KJV)
26 And there was a famine in the land, beside the first famine that was in the days of Abraham. And Isaac went unto Abimelech king of the Philistines unto Gerar.
[SUP]2 [/SUP]And the Lord appeared unto him, and said, Go not down into Egypt; dwell in the land which I shall tell thee of:
[SUP]3 [/SUP]Sojourn in this land, and I will be with thee, and will bless thee; for unto thee, and unto thy seed, I will give all these countries, and I will perform the oath which I sware unto Abraham thy father;
[SUP]4 [/SUP]And I will make thy seed to multiply as the stars of heaven, and will give unto thy seed all these countries; and in thy seed shall all the nations of the earth be blessed;
[SUP]5 [/SUP]Because that Abraham obeyed my voice, and kept my charge, my commandments, my statutes, and my laws.

[SUP]6 [/SUP]And Isaac dwelt in Gerar:

Hebrews 5:9

And being made perfect, he became the author of eternal salvation unto all them that obey him;

 

[PennEd]

You guys are strugglin with the thief, so I'll give you the defining verses from Jesus HIMSELF and we can put this puppy to rest
once and for all.

John 6:28-29 Then said they unto him, What shall we do, that we might work the works of God?
Jesus answered and said unto them, This is the work of God, that ye believe on him whom he hath sent.


Ball game gentlemen. It's a wrap.

 

[Jabberjaw]

You guys are strugglin with the thief, so I'll give you the defining verses from Jesus HIMSELF and we can put this puppy to rest
once and for all.

John 6:28-29 Then said they unto him, What shall we do, that we might work the works of God?
Jesus answered and said unto them, This is the work of God, that ye believe on him whom he hath sent.


Ball game gentlemen. It's a wrap.

No struggles here, this is how one is to "believe on him":

Hear the Gospel
John. 20:30-31; Rom. 10:17

Believe
Rom. 1:16; Acts 18:8; Heb. 11:6

Repent
Lk. 13:3; 24:47; Acts 3:19; 17:30

Confess Faith in Christ
Rom. 10:9-10; Acts 8:37

Be Baptized
Mat. 28:19; Mk. 16:16; Acts 2:38; 10:47-48;
22:16; Rom. 6:1-6; Gal. 3:27; Col. 2:12;
1Pet. 3:21

Be Faithful Unto and Until Death
Mat. 25:21, 34; 2Pet. 1:1-11; Rev. 2:10;
1Jno. 1:6-9

 

[SweetShelly35]

I put this in another thread but it might be helpful here.

Christians are not "of" the world. (Jn 17:18 As you have sent me into the world, I have sent them into the world.) We're sent here on a mission to feed His sheep. (Jn 21:17) We must share the good news so that others can be born again. Don't be influenced by this world, but an influencer of this world. Our mission here has eternal purpose.
So our mission here is to work hard to share the gospel, but it is by grace alone that we go to heaven.

 

[newbirth]

I put this in another thread but it might be helpful here.

Christians are not "of" the world. (Jn 17:18 As you have sent me into the world, I have sent them into the world.) We're sent here on a mission to feed His sheep. (Jn 21:17) We must share the good news so that others can be born again. Don't be influenced by this world, but an influencer of this world. Our mission here has eternal purpose.
So our mission here is to work hard to share the gospel, but it is by grace alone that we go to heaven.

we are saved by grace through faith...where does the scripture teach ... it is by grace alone that we go to heaven

Ephesians 2:4-8King James Version (KJV)
[SUP]4 [/SUP]But God, who is rich in mercy, for his great love wherewith he loved us,
[SUP]5 [/SUP]Even when we were dead in sins, hath quickened us together with Christ, (by grace ye are saved
[SUP]6 [/SUP]And hath raised us up together, and made us sit together in heavenly places in Christ Jesus:
[SUP]7 [/SUP]That in the ages to come he might shew the exceeding riches of his grace in his kindness toward us through Christ Jesus.
[SUP]8 [/SUP]For by grace are ye saved through faith; and that not of yourselves: it is the gift of God:

 

[mailmandan]

Saved believers must CONTINUE to walk in the light to CONTINUE to remain saved. Failing to do so then all their sins are no longer cleansed away by the blood of Christ and they become lost in those unwashed sins.

Show me where John mentions that third camp of saved believers who fail to CONTINUE and REMAIN saved. Chapter and verse please. I'm not seeing the words CONTINUE and REMAIN in 1 John 1:6-7. In 1 John 2:19, John clearly said: They went out from us, but they were not of us; for IF THEY HAD BEEN OF US, THEY WOULD HAVE CONTINUED WITH US; but they went out that they might be made manifest, that none of them were of us. That is the OPPOSITE of what you are saying.

So it is not possible for one to be come a Christian and remained saved without doing good works, Eph 2:10, without doing the obedient work of walking in the light, 1 Jn 1:7, without continuing to do righteousness, 1 Jn 2:29.

Doing good works, walking in the light, continuing to do/practice righteousness is what Christians do BECAUSE they are saved, not to become or remain saved. You are reading the Bible through the "natural man" lens of "works salvation."

 

[mailmandan]

I figured it out...what you have just explained is faith without works...with a couple of out of context scriptures....

You have not figured it out either. Faith is without works if it never produces any works. Please explain to me how a dead faith produces genuine good works in order to become a living faith? which is the same thing as saying that a bad tree produces good fruit in order to become a good tree. Your logic is just the opposite of what Jesus said in Matthew 7:17-18.

how is it when these guys believe they were baptised...when you believe you instantly become righteous....and servants of obedience unto righteousness having never obeyed anything...I suppose Philip and Paul were preaching works

They were baptized AFTER they believed Acts 8:36-38; 10:43-47; 16:31-34.

Acts 8:12
But when they believed Philip preaching the things concerning the kingdom of God, and the name of Jesus Christ, they were baptized, both men and women.

After they believed and were saved (Luke 8:12; John 3:18; Acts 10:43; 13:39; 16:31 etc..).

Acts 18:8
And Crispus, the chief ruler of the synagogue, believed on the Lord with all his house; and many of the Corinthians hearing believed, and were baptized.

They believed and were AFTERWARDS baptized.

 

[eternally-gratefull]

You have not figured it out either. Faith is without works if it never produces any works. Please explain to me how a dead faith produces genuine good works in order to become a living faith? which is the same thing as saying that a bad tree produces good fruit in order to become a good tree. Your logic is just the opposite of what Jesus said in Matthew 7:17-18.

They were baptized AFTER they believed Acts 8:36-38; 10:43-47; 16:31-34.

After they believed and were saved (Luke 8:12; John 3:18; Acts 10:43; 13:39; 16:31 etc..).

They believed and were AFTERWARDS baptized.

they want their water, they reject the spirit. I think it is time to let them have their water and self righteousness. because it is obvious they reject the righteousness of Christ being given to them (like God gave Abraham, who was righteous by no means, or king David, who was righteous by no means) were given based on their faith.

they reject the fact that works are not their because their is no faith, they think a dead, non living, non present faith can be real faith. because they do not understand what real faith is. Until they figure this out, the only one who can help them is God himself.

 

[SarahM777]

they want their water, they reject the spirit. I think it is time to let them have their water and self righteousness. because it is obvious they reject the righteousness of Christ being given to them (like God gave Abraham, who was righteous by no means, or king David, who was righteous by no means) were given based on their faith.

they reject the fact that works are not their because their is no faith, they think a dead, non living, non present faith can be real faith. because they do not understand what real faith is. Until they figure this out, the only one who can help them is God himself.

So EG,Please help me out with this because this it what it SOUNDS LIKE YOUR SAYING (Please note I am not you are saying this BUT IT sounds like your saying this)

Are you saying when Jesus Himself was water baptized He was doing A SELF RIGHTEOUS WORK,because remember was BAPTIZED BY JOHN THE BAPTIST. (He was baptized by a HUMAN BEING)

 

[eternally-gratefull]

So EG,Please help me out with this because this it what it SOUNDS LIKE YOUR SAYING (Please note I am not you are saying this BUT IT sounds like your saying this)

Are you saying when Jesus Himself was water baptized He was doing A SELF RIGHTEOUS WORK,because remember was BAPTIZED BY JOHN THE BAPTIST. (He was baptized by a HUMAN BEING)

Jesus was doing a work of God. As John said, The REASON he came baptizing is to confirm who jesus was, Whoever he seas the spirit of God descending like A dove, this is HE who baptizes with the Holy SPIRIT.

Moses baptised Arron and his sons the same way in the jordan, so this was nothing new, a way to show all the people these were men set aside By God for Gods work.

However, IT HAD NO SALVIC SIGNIFICANCE.

I am not dissing water baptism. God commanded it, and for those of us born and baptised of the spirit. We should do it, to not do it would be sin. I am dissing a work based gospel perverted by people and leading people away from God (also known as water regeneration teaching, instead of spirit regeneration.

 

[SarahM777]

Jesus was doing a work of God. As John said, The REASON he came baptizing is to confirm who jesus was, Whoever he seas the spirit of God descending like A dove, this is HE who baptizes with the Holy SPIRIT.

Moses baptised Arron and his sons the same way in the jordan, so this was nothing new, a way to show all the people these were men set aside By God for Gods work.

However, IT HAD NO SALVIC SIGNIFICANCE.

I am not dissing water baptism. God commanded it, and for those of us born and baptised of the spirit. We should do it, to not do it would be sin. I am dissing a work based gospel perverted by people and leading people away from God (also known as water regeneration teaching, instead of spirit regeneration.

Since when can't the Holy Spirit work THROUGH acts of obedience? Was it the snake that healed them or was it the fact they BELIEVED GOD and were healed when they obeyed? Was Israel's sins covered BEFORE or AFTER the blood was sprinkled on the mercy seat?