Works and Salvation

[SarahM777]

No, Your missing the point.

Their lives were saved the MOMENT they chose to trust moses. Proven by the fact they did not die before they looked at the serpent. They were saved the moment they trusted God, And when they entered the area, they proved their faith was real by doing what God commanded them.

Proving faith is active, where as a dead faith will never save you.

The people who died died the moment they lacked faith. They may have had to wait to die, but their fate was sealed.

Eg you are reading things into the text that it does not say. It does NOT say that their lives were spared at the MOMENT they believed Moses. It does say they had to enter the area. Here is what Numbers 21 actually says


[SUP]4 [/SUP]They traveled from Mount Hor along the route to the Red Sea,[SUP][c][/SUP] to go around Edom. But the people grew impatient on the way; [SUP]5 [/SUP]they spoke against God and against Moses, and said, “Why have you brought us up out of Egypt to die in the wilderness? There is no bread! There is no water! And we detest this miserable food!”
[SUP]6 [/SUP]Then the Lord sent venomous snakes among them; they bit the people and many Israelites died. [SUP]7 [/SUP]The people came to Moses and said, “We sinned when we spoke against the Lord and against you. Pray that the Lord will take the snakes away from us.” So Moses prayed for the people.
[SUP]8 [/SUP]The Lord said to Moses, “Make a snake and put it up on a pole; anyone who is bitten can look at it and live.” [SUP]9 [/SUP]So Moses made a bronze snake and put it up on a pole. Then when anyone was bitten by a snake and looked at the bronze snake, they lived.

Do you actually read what the text ACTUALLY SAYS or do you prefer to wing it?

 

[newbirth]

Eg you are reading things into the text that it does not say. It does NOT say that their lives were spared at the MOMENT they believed Moses. It does say they had to enter the area. Here is what Numbers 21 actually says


[SUP]4 [/SUP]They traveled from Mount Hor along the route to the Red Sea,[SUP][c][/SUP] to go around Edom. But the people grew impatient on the way; [SUP]5 [/SUP]they spoke against God and against Moses, and said, “Why have you brought us up out of Egypt to die in the wilderness? There is no bread! There is no water! And we detest this miserable food!”
[SUP]6 [/SUP]Then the Lord sent venomous snakes among them; they bit the people and many Israelites died. [SUP]7 [/SUP]The people came to Moses and said, “We sinned when we spoke against the Lord and against you. Pray that the Lord will take the snakes away from us.” So Moses prayed for the people.
[SUP]8 [/SUP]The Lord said to Moses, “Make a snake and put it up on a pole; anyone who is bitten can look at it and live.” [SUP]9 [/SUP]So Moses made a bronze snake and put it up on a pole. Then when anyone was bitten by a snake and looked at the bronze snake, they lived.

Do you actually read what the text ACTUALLY SAYS or do you prefer to wing it?

Eg fears the truth he will put you in the ignore bin....

 

[eternally-gratefull]

Eg you are reading things into the text that it does not say. It does NOT say that their lives were spared at the MOMENT they believed Moses. It does say they had to enter the area. Here is what Numbers 21 actually says

are you serious? I am beside myself

SHow me where they died BEFORE in between the time they had a living faith in the word and did the act which showed their faith was real?

Do you people ever listen to yourselves?

God is OUTSIDE OF TIME. He knew who would be saved BEFORE the world began, No one is EVER GOING to do something that God did not already KNOW they would do.

The people were saved the MOMENT they trusted God. It is their FAITH which caused them to act.

You ignore the fact it was the serpant which saved them, you totally destroy the symbolism of the whole thing.

Jesus is the serpant. He was lifted up on the cross. God calls us to LOOK ON HIM and YOU WILL BE SAVED. where is the work? where is all the things all these people say we must do to be saved? It is not found, in the NT gospel. or in this symbolic representation of the gospel.

Call on the name of the lord, and you will be saved, Look to the cross. That is what we are called to do.

 

[eternally-gratefull]

Eg fears the truth he will put you in the ignore bin....

spoken like a true pharisee.

2 Timothy 1:7
For God has not given us a spirit of fear, but of power and of love and of a sound mind.

Romans 8:15
For you did not receive the spirit of bondage again to fear, but you received the Spirit of adoption by whom we cry out, “Abba, Father.”

Your the one preaching fear. Not me..

Your the one who better fear before it is too late, and you join your pharisee brothers in having God tell yuo to depart from him. for HE NEVER KNEW YOU and all your works.

I have no fear.

1. God saved me
2. God purchased my salvation, thus me
3. God saved me
4. God, who began a good work in me, will perfect it until the day of CHrist.

I have no need to fear. because in me it is all about God. I can do not good work without God. and he gaves me the power to be his son, because I have trusted his name.

 

[SarahM777]

[/COLOR]are you serious? I am beside myself

SHow me where they died BEFORE in between the time they had a living faith in the word and did the act which showed their faith was real?

Do you people ever listen to yourselves?

God is OUTSIDE OF TIME. He knew who would be saved BEFORE the world began, No one is EVER GOING to do something that God did not already KNOW they would do.

The people were saved the MOMENT they trusted God. It is their FAITH which caused them to act.

You ignore the fact it was the serpant which saved them, you totally destroy the symbolism of the whole thing.

Jesus is the serpant. He was lifted up on the cross. God calls us to LOOK ON HIM and YOU WILL BE SAVED. where is the work? where is all the things all these people say we must do to be saved? It is not found, in the NT gospel. or in this symbolic representation of the gospel.

Call on the name of the lord, and you will be saved, Look to the cross. That is what we are called to do.

So are you saying one can be saved WITHOUT obedience? Would they have lived if they DID NOT do as God told them to do,and look at the serpent? What you miss is that they BOTH go hand in hand.

 

[ChristIsGod]

let me repeat my question brother, If one have a faith in Jesus and die 10 second after, before water baptism, is he save?

Yes! This scenario happens and have knowledge of it happening - where it was Impossible before they died but had received that actual experience of regeneration and "everybody in the room saw their countenance actually change and a peace filled them and they looked up in their last breath and displayed or said something profoundly spiritual in their last breath".

Just ask anyone who's worked in a Hospital, Nursing Home, Hospice Facility or Prison or in an area where water is almost non-existent, as many Missionaries do.

God is bigger than us and knows the heart and cry of a new born lamb.

 

[SeaBass]

let me repeat my question brother, If one have a faith in Jesus and die 10 second after, before water baptism, is he save?

No.

Mk 16:16 he that believeth AND is baptized shall be saved.

If one can be saved without being baptized then one can be saved without believing,

An atheist is on an airplane about to nose-dive into the ground. In his last moments he begins to believe there is a 'higher power' and after-life, but dies in the crash not know exactly who or what to believe. He would have believed if he had more time. Will he be saved anyway in his unbelief?

 

[eternally-gratefull]

So are you saying one can be saved WITHOUT obedience?

We have to be saved without obedience. We are saved as his enemy, how else can you get on your knees as the tax collector and call on the name of the lord?

How can you sit there ans seriously ask that question? You think you can be obedient enough to save you? don't you know the requirement of the law? How can you fulfill that requirement to be saved?

Those who are save will show the obedience their living faith empowers. It is not the works which saved them.

Would they have lived if they DID NOT do as God told them to do,and look at the serpent? What you miss is that they BOTH go hand in hand

You miss that those who had faith DID do the work. those who did not have faith did not, because their faith was dead.

It was not the work which saved them, it was their faith. The work just PROVED their faith was real. You also miss that it was the serpant which saved them, just like it is CHrists death which saves us. God just asks you to look at him.

again, where are all the works??

 

[notuptome]

No.

Mk 16:16 he that believeth AND is baptized shall be saved.

If one can be saved without being baptized then one can be saved without believing,

An atheist is on an airplane about to nose-dive into the ground. In his last moments he begins to believe there is a 'higher power' and after-life, but dies in the crash not know exactly who or what to believe. He would have believed if he had more time. Will he be saved anyway in his unbelief?

ZZZZZZZZ.....droning away with false doctrine will not make it sound doctrine.

Water baptism never saves only Holy Spirit baptism. As long as you deny the third part of the Godhead you will never come to the knowledge of the truth.

Like Cain you prefer your gospel to Gods gospel even though the sin offering lies at the door. One day like King Agrippa you will say almost thou persuades me. Almost never quite there. Sad so very sad and avoidable.

For the cause of Christ
Roger

For the cause of Christ
Roger

 

[eternally-gratefull]

No.

Mk 16:16 he that believeth AND is baptized shall be saved.

If one can be saved without being baptized then one can be saved without believing,

An atheist is on an airplane about to nose-dive into the ground. In his last moments he begins to believe there is a 'higher power' and after-life, but dies in the crash not know exactly who or what to believe. He would have believed if he had more time. Will he be saved anyway in his unbelief?

heretic.

Can anyone else listen to a word this guy says? more importantly. how can we give this guy any udience by continuing to respond to him?

He has God sending people to hell who had a living faith in him, but died on the way to the baptismal.

Nothing else needs to be said

 

[SarahM777]

We have to be saved without obedience. We are saved as his enemy, how else can you get on your knees as the tax collector and call on the name of the lord?

How can you sit there ans seriously ask that question? You think you can be obedient enough to save you? don't you know the requirement of the law? How can you fulfill that requirement to be saved?

Those who are save will show the obedience their living faith empowers. It is not the works which saved them.


You miss that those who had faith DID do the work. those who did not have faith did not, because their faith was dead.

It was not the work which saved them, it was their faith. The work just PROVED their faith was real. You also miss that it was the serpant which saved them, just like it is CHrists death which saves us. God just asks you to look at him.

again, where are all the works??

Please explain how can be saved if one does not even obey the command to repent?

Since when does a bronze serpent have the power to save anything?

 

[eternally-gratefull]

Please explain how can be saved if one does not even obey the command to repent?

back to this again?

If one has not repented. They can not have faith, If one has no faith (looks on the serpant) they are not saved.

so whats your point?

Since when does a bronze serpent have the power to save anything?

The bronze serpent is a representation of Christ. Are you going to tell me Christ has no power to save anyone? No wonder you want works, Christ can not do what he claims in your gospel. He is just a bronze serpent with no power to do anything.

 

[newbirth]

spoken like a true pharisee.

2 Timothy 1:7
For God has not given us a spirit of fear, but of power and of love and of a sound mind.

Romans 8:15
For you did not receive the spirit of bondage again to fear, but you received the Spirit of adoption by whom we cry out, “Abba, Father.”

Your the one preaching fear. Not me..

Your the one who better fear before it is too late, and you join your pharisee brothers in having God tell yuo to depart from him. for HE NEVER KNEW YOU and all your works.

I have no fear.

1. God saved me
2. God purchased my salvation, thus me
3. God saved me
4. God, who began a good work in me, will perfect it until the day of CHrist.

I have no need to fear. because in me it is all about God. I can do not good work without God. and he gaves me the power to be his son, because I have trusted his name.

Hebrews 12:27-29King James Version (KJV)
[SUP]27 [/SUP]And this word, Yet once more, signifieth the removing of those things that are shaken, as of things that are made, that those things which cannot be shaken may remain.
[SUP]28 [/SUP]Wherefore we receiving a kingdom which cannot be moved, let us have grace, whereby we may serve God acceptably with reverence and godly fear:

[SUP]29 [/SUP]For our God is a consuming fire.

 

[Jackson123]

then you did not read the whole answer... especially the red print...you have to come to God in faith ...believe that he is and that he is a rewarder of them that diligently seek him... the scripture teaches ...faith without works is dead...so you are asking answers...devils believe and tremble....what makes him different from the devils? a seeker of God does what God says to do...you have not shown this person to obey God

Hebrews 11:6
But without faith it is impossible to please him: for he that cometh to God must believe that he is, and that he is a rewarder of them that diligently seek him.

So what is your answered to my question than.

If one believe and have faith in Jesus than die after 10 second before have a chance for water baptism, do he go to heaven or hell

 

[Jackson123]

Yes! This scenario happens and have knowledge of it happening - where it was Impossible before they died but had received that actual experience of regeneration and "everybody in the room saw their countenance actually change and a peace filled them and they looked up in their last breath and displayed or said something profoundly spiritual in their last breath".

Just ask anyone who's worked in a Hospital, Nursing Home, Hospice Facility or Prison or in an area where water is almost non-existent, as many Missionaries do.

God is bigger than us and knows the heart and cry of a new born lamb.

My Sunday school was a Doctor, He tell us about some dying people who just accept Jesus, Some of them said he saw Jesus, and he is very happy.

 

[Jackson123]

No.

Mk 16:16 he that believeth AND is baptized shall be saved.

If one can be saved without being baptized then one can be saved without believing,

An atheist is on an airplane about to nose-dive into the ground. In his last moments he begins to believe there is a 'higher power' and after-life, but dies in the crash not know exactly who or what to believe. He would have believed if he had more time. Will he be saved anyway in his unbelief?

Every body who accept Jesus, automatically baptize in Jesus name. He is immerse in Jesus as soon as he accept Him.

He may not baptized with water yet.

And people that go to water baptism ritual may not really baptized in Jesus name.

 

[newbirth]

[/COLOR]back to this again?

If one has not repented. They can not have faith, If one has no faith (looks on the serpant) they are not saved.

so whats your point?



The bronze serpent is a representation of Christ. Are you going to tell me Christ has no power to save anyone? No wonder you want works, Christ can not do what he claims in your gospel. He is just a bronze serpent with no power to do anything.

faith comes by hearing bro.....

 

[eternally-gratefull]

faith comes by hearing bro.....

not everyone who hears has faith.

Alot of those people died, because they did not have faith, But they all heard.

Nice try though.

 

[Jabberjaw]

ZZZZZZZZ.....droning away with false doctrine will not make it sound doctrine.

Water baptism never saves only Holy Spirit baptism. As long as you deny the third part of the Godhead you will never come to the knowledge of the truth.

Like Cain you prefer your gospel to Gods gospel even though the sin offering lies at the door. One day like King Agrippa you will say almost thou persuades me. Almost never quite there. Sad so very sad and avoidable.

For the cause of Christ
Roger

For the cause of Christ
Roger

Only man made opinion, from man made doctrine with no scripture to back it up, you cannot show one single Holy Spirit baptism other than the Apostles and the house of Cornelius... not one.

 

[newbirth]

Yes! This scenario happens and have knowledge of it happening - where it was Impossible before they died but had received that actual experience of regeneration and "everybody in the room saw their countenance actually change and a peace filled them and they looked up in their last breath and displayed or said something profoundly spiritual in their last breath".

Just ask anyone who's worked in a Hospital, Nursing Home, Hospice Facility or Prison or in an area where water is almost non-existent, as many Missionaries do.

God is bigger than us and knows the heart and cry of a new born lamb.

where is the scripture or that????