Works Complete Faith?

  • Christian Chat is a moderated online Christian community allowing Christians around the world to fellowship with each other in real time chat via webcam, voice, and text, with the Christian Chat app. You can also start or participate in a Bible-based discussion here in the Christian Chat Forums, where members can also share with each other their own videos, pictures, or favorite Christian music.

    If you are a Christian and need encouragement and fellowship, we're here for you! If you are not a Christian but interested in knowing more about Jesus our Lord, you're also welcome! Want to know what the Bible says, and how you can apply it to your life? Join us!

    To make new Christian friends now around the world, click here to join Christian Chat.
Status
Not open for further replies.

John146

Senior Member
Jan 13, 2016
17,090
3,681
113
I'm not getting in to KJV-Onlyism.
Saying we're saved by the faith of Christ makes no sense, saying we're saved by the faithfulness of Christ makes sense.
We are saved by believing the gospel of Jesus Christ. Christ's faith justifies the man before God. The believer is made righteous by the faith of Jesus Christ. Man cannot be righteous on his own.
 
Sep 23, 2023
847
76
28
We are saved by believing the gospel of Jesus Christ. Christ's faith justifies the man before God. The believer is made righteous by the faith of Jesus Christ. Man cannot be righteous on his own.
Yes, we're saved like the Jews were saved--and, just as the Jews fell under God's wrath and forfeited the promise because of sinning after being saved, so, also, Christians can be condemned for sinning. Also, their justification is maintained by walking in faith, not in the flesh. That's what this is all about.
 

Cameron143

Well-known member
Mar 1, 2022
18,821
6,467
113
62
1. On the contrary, it would be unrighteous for God to not condemn sin--that is what you believe.

2. Please point me to where you have explained your view of Romans 14:23.
You ignore what I post. It is either self-condemnation or that the believer is being compared to an unbeliever.
And while it would be unrighteous for God to not condemn sin, it would be equally unrighteous to condemn a believer for their sin since Jesus already has already been condemned in their place.
 

Magenta

Senior Member
Jul 3, 2015
59,756
29,123
113

timemeddler

Active member
Jul 13, 2023
445
199
43
Paul said that. I'm reading Paul, so I'm saying it.

Again, Ro 14:23 says a Christian who sins is "condemned". How do you interpret what Paul says there?
How do you reconcile your interpretation of Ro 8:1 with 14:23?
if two verses sound contradictory, they must not be refering to same thing or situation.
 
Sep 23, 2023
847
76
28
You ignore what I post. It is either self-condemnation or that the believer is being compared to an unbeliever.
And while it would be unrighteous for God to not condemn sin, it would be equally unrighteous to condemn a believer for their sin since Jesus already has.
And I have already answered:

1. Does "sin" (Ro 14:23) lead to mere "self-condemnation", or does "sin" lead to God condemning?

2. What does it mean that a believer is being compared to an unbeliever? Is he condemned for his "sin" or is he not? You have played games, now, trying to avoid answering this, for a long time now. Everyone can see it.
 
Sep 23, 2023
847
76
28
Are you denying what everyone can see???

I also quoted ^ that post. You are acting like a slippery devil.
You cited #207.
I said "I was addressing Cameron".

Then you cited another post, where I put your name.

How is that slippery?

I was asking Cameron to tell me what Cameron thought of Ro 14:23 in #207.

Earlier, I was addressing your answer you gave to Ro 14:23, and how you thought it was "self-condemnation".

This is not being slippery. I was pressing Cameron, not you, in #207.
 

Cameron143

Well-known member
Mar 1, 2022
18,821
6,467
113
62
And I have already answered:

1. Does "sin" (Ro 14:23) lead to mere "self-condemnation", or does "sin" lead to God condemning?

2. What does it mean that a believer is being compared to an unbeliever? Is he condemned for his "sin" or is he not? You have played games, now, trying to avoid answering this, for a long time now. Everyone can see it.
I'm not playing games. I've answered every question several times.
At any rate, this conversation became unprofitable a while back. Thanks for taking the time to share. Blessings.
 
Sep 23, 2023
847
76
28
if two verses sound contradictory, they must not be refering to same thing or situation.
Correct--and another possibility is that our presuppositions (by which we assume the categories under which that which is being addressed are falling) are incorrect.
 
Sep 23, 2023
847
76
28
I'm playing games. I've answered every question several times.
At any rate, this conversation became unprofitable a while back. Thanks for taking the time to share. Blessings.
So, does the Christian become "condemned" by his "sin" or not? You've never said "yes" or "no", you've only provided meaningless gobbledygook like "the Christian is being compared to an unbeliever". :ROFL:

Yes, as I said, thanks for interacting.
 

Bob-Carabbio

Well-known member
Jun 24, 2020
1,591
797
113
Works Complete Faith?
Nope. Exactly backwards. Specifically, "Works" ARE THE RESULT OF FAITH. As Philip Melacthon said (in Luther's time): "It is FAITH ALONE that saves, but the FAITH THAT SAVES will never be alone". Saving FAITH will invariably , of it's intrinsic nature PRODUCE Works

The book of James essentially is a TEST by which one can determine that what they CALL FAITH, actually IS Biblical Faith as defined in Heb 11:1, or nothing more than "Religious / Theological BELIEF". "FAITH" that produces nothing in practical terms, isn't "FAITH" at all.
 
Sep 23, 2023
847
76
28
if two verses sound contradictory, they must not be refering to same thing or situation.
Correct--and another possibility is that our presuppositions (by which we assume the categories under which that which is being addressed are falling) are incorrect.
For instance, I would read it as "There is no condemnation for those who are in Christ Jesus, because they are not being mastered by sin, thus, not keeping God's commands, because those who walk after the Spirit keep God's commands (Ro 8:4)--but, when a person sins, they are not abiding in Christ, thus they suffer condemnation, as 1 Jn 2:28 says 'Abide in Him, so that when He appears, you will not draw back in shame'."
 

John146

Senior Member
Jan 13, 2016
17,090
3,681
113
Yes, we're saved like the Jews were saved--and, just as the Jews fell under God's wrath and forfeited the promise because of sinning after being saved, so, also, Christians can be condemned for sinning. Also, their justification is maintained by walking in faith, not in the flesh. That's what this is all about.
Galatians 2:20 I am crucified with Christ: nevertheless I live; yet not I, but Christ liveth in me: and the life which I now live in the flesh I live by the faith of the Son of God, who loved me, and gave himself for me.
 
Sep 23, 2023
847
76
28
Nope. Exactly backwards. Specifically, "Works" ARE THE RESULT OF FAITH. As Philip Melacthon said (in Luther's time): "It is FAITH ALONE that saves, but the FAITH THAT SAVES will never be alone". Saving FAITH will invariably , of it's intrinsic nature PRODUCE Works

The book of James essentially is a TEST by which one can determine that what they CALL FAITH, actually IS Biblical Faith as defined in Heb 11:1, or nothing more than "Religious / Theological BELIEF". "FAITH" that produces nothing in practical terms, isn't "FAITH" at all.
1. Grace saves through the righteousness of faith--true.
This "salvation" Paul compares to that salvation of the Jews from Egypt--and, just as they fell under wrath and forfeited the promise, because they sinned after being saved, Paul says, Christians can fall under wrath, and forfeit the promise, after being saved (1 Co 10).

2. Yes, faith must come before works.
Still, some do not walk in faith (eg, Ro 14:23, all of 1 Corinthians, where they are reprimanded for living in sin), and this is the issue James 2 addresses.

3. No, if good works invariably followed from faith, Christians would never sin, but anyone who says they don't sin is a liar and God's Word is not abiding in them, and, again, 1 Cor would never have been written.
 

John146

Senior Member
Jan 13, 2016
17,090
3,681
113
Nope. Exactly backwards. Specifically, "Works" ARE THE RESULT OF FAITH. As Philip Melacthon said (in Luther's time): "It is FAITH ALONE that saves, but the FAITH THAT SAVES will never be alone". Saving FAITH will invariably , of it's intrinsic nature PRODUCE Works

The book of James essentially is a TEST by which one can determine that what they CALL FAITH, actually IS Biblical Faith as defined in Heb 11:1, or nothing more than "Religious / Theological BELIEF". "FAITH" that produces nothing in practical terms, isn't "FAITH" at all.
To the twelve tribes scattered abroad...context, context, context.

James 2
21 Was not Abraham our father justified by works, when he had offered Isaac his son upon the altar?
22 Seest thou how faith wrought with his works, and by works was faith made perfect?
 
Sep 23, 2023
847
76
28
Galatians 2:20 I am crucified with Christ: nevertheless I live; yet not I, but Christ liveth in me: and the life which I now live in the flesh I live by the faith of the Son of God, who loved me, and gave himself for me.
1. What a blessing Paul lived.
He says those who belong to Christ "have crucified the fleshly desires", but we also know some Christians "walk after the flesh" instead of "mortifying the deeds of the flesh by the spirit", and they will not inherit life but die at the judgment (Ro 2:6-16, 8:12,13).

2. Faithfulness* of the Son of God--I think we talked about this already. If you disagree, we can agree to disagree.
 
Sep 23, 2023
847
76
28
To the twelve tribes scattered abroad...context, context, context.

James 2
21 Was not Abraham our father justified by works, when he had offered Isaac his son upon the altar?
22 Seest thou how faith wrought with his works, and by works was faith made perfect?
I won't be getting in to the "multiple Gospels" issue.
 
Sep 23, 2023
847
76
28
Are you denying what everyone can see???

I also quoted ^ that post. You are acting like a slippery devil.
Sorry for any confusion.
It was not my intention.

I stand by what I said earlier: I was not pressing you for your explanation of Ro 14:23 in #207.
You volunteered a reply to #207.

If you want to answer my answer to your answer on Ro 14:23, go ahead, but I wasn't pressing you in #207, so when you responded to #207, I was confused.
 

timemeddler

Active member
Jul 13, 2023
445
199
43
“Either make the tree good and its fruit good, or make the tree bad and its fruit bad; for the tree is known by its fruit. 34 You brood of vipers, how can you, being evil, speak (ad)what is good? For the mouth speaks out of that which fills the heart. 35 The good man brings out of his good treasure (ae)what is good; and the evil man brings out of his evil treasure (af)what is evil. 36 But I tell you that every (ag)careless word that people (ah)speak, they shall give an accounting for it in the day of judgment. 37 For (ai)by your words you will be justified, and (aj)by your words you will be condemned.”

Here's a verse that says something similar, sounds like a matter of overall behavior rather than one sin equaling condemnation. It's a like a balancing scale, we should try to avoid the things that are sin(condemnation) and do and say the things of righteousness to the best of our ability. Just don't expect it to be what gets you into heaven, or kicks you into hell.
 

Bob-Carabbio

Well-known member
Jun 24, 2020
1,591
797
113
1. Grace saves through the righteousness of faith--true.
This "salvation" Paul compares to that salvation of the Jews from Egypt--and, just as they fell under wrath and forfeited the promise, because they sinned after being saved, Paul says, Christians can fall under wrath, and forfeit the promise, after being saved (1 Co 10).
.

PERSONALLY, I'm not necessarily a believer in "OSAS" (or "Perseverance of the Saints" to the Calvinists). But I DO believe that the "State of being Born Again's FOUNDATION" is Living FAITH which depends on there being a living relationship with God. By personal experience, I know that a Christian CAN "get busy with other things and NEGLECT their relationship - which causes "LIVING FAITH" to dim, and become the fading memory of HAVING HAD a living relationship. It's also my PERSONAL EXPERIENCE the God does sent "Wake-up calls", sometimes pretty brutal ones, to "GET OUR ATTENTION" before it's too late.

2. Yes, faith must come before works.
FAITH (Biblical FAITH - Heb 11:1) must come BEFORE ANYTHING ELSE is even possible. For me and many others "CONVOCTION OF SIN and of Judgement from the Holy Spirit was the initial SOURCE of FAITH (God's WORD to you) before I was even Born Again..

3. No, if good works invariably followed from faith, Christians would never sin,
Totally incorrect!!! There's NOTHING Biblically that would lead to a conclusion like that. You've expressed the "Jump to the ridicuolus extreme" fallacy. You're STILL HUMAN, and you STILL HAVE A HUMAN NATURE, and paul instructs us to "Crucify the fless, and live in the Spirit instead. That's the progressive process of "Sanctification" (coming into Christian maturity).

but anyone who says they don't sin is a liar and God's Word is not abiding in them,
CORRECT!! Christians SIN, which has NOTHING TO DO with the Holy Spirit in a Born again person producing GOOD WORKS in them. Fortunately WHEN we SIN, we have an advocate when we confess our SIN to him.[/quote]
 
Status
Not open for further replies.