Works Complete Faith?

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Sep 23, 2023
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Were the Jews granted salvation in Egypt or were the Jews granted freedom from slavery in Egypt?
The application is what matters: Paul says what happened to them could happen to him, there fore he kept his flesh (sin is all about the flesh's desires) in check.
 
Sep 23, 2023
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Did Moses fall under God's wrath?
That's not relevant.
The dynamic is what matters: if the saved break the Law of Faith, walk after flesh, they risk the wrath of God and forfeiting the Promise.
 

Cameron143

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Mar 1, 2022
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That's not relevant.
The dynamic is what matters: if the saved break the Law of Faith, walk after flesh, they risk the wrath of God and forfeiting the Promise.
No. He lost the blessing of a particular promise. Otherwise, he's a goner. And so is everyone else. Unless you believe that God treats some differently than others.
Laws are either kept or not. There is no mostly kept.
How would someone not keep the law and not come under the wrath of God and not forfeit the promise?
 
Sep 23, 2023
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No. He lost the blessing of a particular promise. Otherwise, he's a goner. And so is everyone else. Unless you believe that God treats some differently than others.
Laws are either kept or not. There is no mostly kept.
How would someone not keep the law and not come under the wrath of God and not forfeit the promise?
Are you finally actually agreeing with me, then? I'm not sure how to interpret what you're saying.
 
Sep 23, 2023
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I understand what you are saying.

The problem is understanding the foundation of our faith and why we are saved in the first place.

Paul makes it very clear that we receive the Holy Spirit because we believed in Jesus.

Ephesians 1:13
In Him, you also, after listening to the message of truth, the gospel of your salvation—having also believed, you were sealed in Him with the Holy Spirit of the promise.
Yep, he teaches that, and he teaches lots more on the topic--that's what the thread has been all about! Lol
 
Sep 23, 2023
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Also, Paul teaches the same as James--look at Ro 2:6-16, and at Ro 14:23, where only the doer of good is justified, and is repaid eternal life (the Spirit), and the one who does not walk by faith is "condemned".
Also, Ro 8:12,13, the Christian who walks after the flesh instead of the Spirit will die and not live--as Gal 6:6-10 says "sow to the flesh, reap destruction, sow to the Spirit, reap everlasting life", and the "sowing" is "good deeds" and "we will reap in due season if we persist in doing good".

The "faith alone" crowd sees no issue for all these Scriptures--they're just "extra parts" left over after tbeyre done building their "systematic theologies". Not that they have no efficacy, they're just inaccurate. They're all misshapen, with parts jutting out in this direction, stuff falling off in that direction, but they swear it's fine. Lol it's a mess!
 
Sep 23, 2023
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I understand what you are saying.

The problem is understanding the foundation of our faith and why we are saved in the first place.

Paul makes it very clear that we receive the Holy Spirit because we believed in Jesus.

Ephesians 1:13
In Him, you also, after listening to the message of truth, the gospel of your salvation—having also believed, you were sealed in Him with the Holy Spirit of the promise.
"in Him"

Again, we only abide in Him if we keep His commandments--believe in the Name of God's Son AND LOVE ONE ANOTHER. And we know we abide in Him by the Spirit He gives us.

The eternal life is only located in the Son (1 Jn 5:11)--and only by abiding in Him do we continue to be supplied with the Spirit/eternal life.

What happens to us if we infract this Law of Faith? Paul warns "if you disregard this prohibition on immorality, you're not disregarding man but God Who gives you His Spirit"!
 
Sep 23, 2023
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Romans 4:16
For this reason it is by faith, in order that it may be in accordance with grace, so that the promise will be guaranteed to all the descendants
Which "All"? Both Jews and Gentiles. Therefore, the "works" it refers to must be works of Law. I'm not saying anything to the contrary.
 
Sep 23, 2023
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Agreed… The shepherds sheep are slow. That just sounds weird. But you’re correct.
"Sheep do not know when to stop eating. This is especially concerning if they have access to things they like and taste good to them. Accidental access to unlimited grains, Alpha Fields, access to fruit. This farmer lost 83 Sheep by accident when they pushed down a fence and got into an Alfalfa Field."

https://www.farmanimalreport.com/20...hungry-they-overeat-and-die/?expand_article=1
 
Aug 27, 2023
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cv5

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Nov 20, 2018
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Cameron143 said:
Did Moses fall under God's wrath?

That's not relevant.
The dynamic is what matters: if the saved break the Law of Faith, walk after flesh, they risk the wrath of God and forfeiting the Promise.
So tell me, what promise was forfeited by Moses?
And more importantly, what was the REASON and nature of the rebellion of BOTH Moses AND Aaron?
How grave was the sin? Was this sin premeditated and intentional (and it most certainly was)?
And if this DIRECT COMMAND by God Himself speaking from the Shekinah glory cloud was broken intentionally and willfully (and it most certainly was), what then is the necessary punishment, according to your thesis?

Num 20:7
And the LORD spake unto Moses, saying,
Num 20:8
Take the rod, and gather thou the assembly together, thou, and Aaron thy brother, and speak ye unto the rock before their eyes; and it shall give forth his water, and thou shalt bring forth to them water out of the rock: so thou shalt give the congregation and their beasts drink.
Num 20:9
And Moses took the rod from before the LORD, as he commanded him.
Num 20:10
And Moses and Aaron gathered the congregation together before the rock, and he said unto them, Hear now, ye rebels; must we fetch you water out of this rock?
Num 20:11
And Moses lifted up his hand, and with his rod he smote the rock twice: and the water came out abundantly, and the congregation drank, and their beasts also.
Num 20:12
And the LORD spake unto Moses and Aaron, Because ye believed me not, to sanctify me in the eyes of the children of Israel, therefore ye shall not bring this congregation into the land which I have given them.
Num 20:13
This is the water of Meribah; because the children of Israel strove with the LORD, and he was sanctified in them.
 

cv5

Well-known member
Nov 20, 2018
22,688
8,229
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Which "All"? Both Jews and Gentiles. Therefore, the "works" it refers to must be works of Law. I'm not saying anything to the contrary.
The whole of Romans 4 deals with Abraham.
Abraham was under the law was he? Even before he was circumcised?

Our keeping laws has ZERO to do with salvation. Zero. Lest the finished work of Jesus be defiled.
Faith in the Name of Jesus (therefore being under/covered by the blood) is THE one and only factor that guarantees salvation.
 
Sep 23, 2023
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So tell me, what promise was forfeited by Moses?
And more importantly, what was the REASON and nature of the rebellion of BOTH Moses AND Aaron?
How grave was the sin? Was this sin premeditated and intentional (and it most certainly was)?
And if this DIRECT COMMAND by God Himself speaking from the Shekinah glory cloud was broken intentionally and willfully (and it most certainly was), what then is the necessary punishment, according to your thesis?

Num 20:7
And the LORD spake unto Moses, saying,
Num 20:8
Take the rod, and gather thou the assembly together, thou, and Aaron thy brother, and speak ye unto the rock before their eyes; and it shall give forth his water, and thou shalt bring forth to them water out of the rock: so thou shalt give the congregation and their beasts drink.
Num 20:9
And Moses took the rod from before the LORD, as he commanded him.
Num 20:10
And Moses and Aaron gathered the congregation together before the rock, and he said unto them, Hear now, ye rebels; must we fetch you water out of this rock?
Num 20:11
And Moses lifted up his hand, and with his rod he smote the rock twice: and the water came out abundantly, and the congregation drank, and their beasts also.
Num 20:12
And the LORD spake unto Moses and Aaron, Because ye believed me not, to sanctify me in the eyes of the children of Israel, therefore ye shall not bring this congregation into the land which I have given them.
Num 20:13
This is the water of Meribah; because the children of Israel strove with the LORD, and he was sanctified in them.
Lol oh no you got me! Even though you have no defense for a single other thing I've said!

1 Co 10 says "they were baptized into Moses", so Paul is talking about the Israelites.

Maybe you could dust 1 Co 10 off before commenting on it.
 
Sep 23, 2023
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The whole of Romans 4 deals with Abraham.
Abraham was under the law was he? Even before he was circumcised?
Wow, try again! Lol I literally said the opposite!

Our keeping laws has ZERO to do with salvation. Zero. Lest the finished work of Jesus be defiled.
Faith in the Name of Jesus (therefore being under/covered by the blood) is THE one and only factor that guarantees salvation.
You're free to address head-on anything I've stated, where these empty claims are refuted, whenever you please!
 
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