Works Complete Faith?

[romans113336]

I agree works complete faith.

I know you agree works complete faith.

Maybe I'm miss understanding you. You're right and I do not take away from Christ. I know 100% my works will NEVER save me. Only Jesus can save me by His sacrifice, mercy and grace.

Well, then, that's what the "faith alone" people mean when they say "the finished work of Christ"--and it's what Paul is referring to when he says, "I boast only in the cross".
What do people "boast" about"? The ABILITY of a thing.
So Paul boasts in the ABILITY of Christ--whereby he became a "new creation" that has new desires.

That was his point--"You didn't start/receive the Spirit (eternal life) by the works of the Law, and you don't abide in Christ, and, so, progress/become perfect/abide in Christ, and, so, continue receiving the Spirit (eternal life) by the Law; you started/received the Spirit (eternal life) by the hearing of faith, and you progress/become perfect/abide in Christ by that same way of faith, so "serve one another by faith which works by love that God works in your hearts."

 

[romans113336]

Sometimes things are restated or redone for emphasis. I put forward a statement, and was attempting to show its validity with an example.
And that's the second time, in answering, that you have ascribed to me some idea that I haven't spoken to.
I generally ask very specific questions. A yes or no would have sufficed.

You said "Since it was a gift, we can't lose it".
Right or wrong?

 

[Cameron143]

You said "Since it was a gift, we can't lose it".
Right or wrong?

No.
It's also a little disingenuous to accuse someone of not paying attention to what you have written, and not even know what the other person has written.
At any rare, thanks for sharing. Grace and peace.

 

[Pilgrimshope]

In the content below, isn't the "faith" referred to not with reference to "the finished work of Christ"--isn't "faith", here, something more akin to a Holy Spirit-granted conviction of what is right or wrong? Doesn't it describe instances of how we "serve in newness of spirit, not in oldness of the letter"? Isn't it a warning that if we choose to ignore those convictions, we will not be "justified" but "condemned" (the two being adjudications the Judge may make about one's life)?

If so, then James and Paul are saying the same thing: as Christians, we will live (be justified by the righteousness of serving in the newness of the Spirit, and, ultimately, "repaid" eternal life Ro 2:6-16) if we walk after the Spirit, but will die (be condemned for unrighteousness, and, ultimately, perish) if we walk after the flesh?


Romans 14
5Each person must be fully convinced in his own mind...
23But he who doubts is condemned if he eats, because his eating is not from faith; and whatever is not from faith is sin.

James 2
14What use is it, my brothers and sisters, if someone says he has faith, but he has no works? Can [j]that faith save him? 15If a brother or sister is without clothing and in need of daily food, 16and one of you says to them, “Go in peace, [k]be warmed and be filled,” yet you do not give them what is necessary for their body, what use is that? 17In the same way, faith also, if it has no works, is [l]dead, being by itself.
18But someone [m]may well say, “You have faith and I have works; show me your faith without the works, and I will show you my faith by my works.” 19You believe that [n]God is one. You do well; the demons also believe, and shudder. 20But are you willing to acknowledge, you foolish person, that faith without works is useless? 21Was our father Abraham not justified by works when he offered up his son Isaac on the altar? 22You see that faith was working with his works, and [o]as a result of the works, faith was [p]perfected; 23and the Scripture was fulfilled which says, “AND ABRAHAM BELIEVED GOD, AND IT WAS CREDITED TO HIM AS RIGHTEOUSNESS,” and he was called a friend of God. 24You see that a person is justified by works and not by faith alone. 25In the same way, was Rahab, the prostitute, not justified by works also when she received the messengers and sent them out by another way? 26For just as the body without the spirit is dead, so also faith without works is dead.

think of if we remove man from the equation god speaks and declares “ let there be light “ this is true and will happen , but it isnt fulfilled though until the light shines until the work happens

“And (1) God said, Let there be light:

(2) and there was light.”
‭‭Genesis‬ ‭1:3‬ ‭KJV‬‬


Now the same principle power working through a man


“And ( 1) the LORD said unto Moses, Stretch out thine hand toward heaven, that there may be darkness over the land of Egypt, even darkness which may be felt.

( same power but now Moses is involved god includes an instruction for Moses to perform and a promise of what will happen )


And (2) Moses stretched forth his hand toward heaven;

(3) and there was a thick darkness in all the land of Egypt three days:”
‭‭Exodus‬ ‭10:21-22‬ ‭KJV‬‬


1 god declares faith . 2 man hears faith . and acts upon it 3 the declaration is Fulfilled by the effectual work declared beforehand through man. Every time god speaks it has the same power when we learn that truth and focus on what Jesus said will save us , and give us strength and life and light well understand faith and begin to believe and act upon it

just as he told Moses to life his hand toward heaven he sent what he said on the gospel to us all with a promise

“And he said unto them, Go ye into all the world, and preach the gospel to every creature.( that’s all man’s doctrine )

He that believeth and is baptized shall be saved; ( will we lift our hands like the lord invited us to do with his promise ?)

but he that believeth not shall be damned.”( or won’t we ?)
‭‭Mark‬ ‭16:15-16‬ ‭

“For I am not ashamed of the gospel of Christ: for it is the power of God unto salvation to every one that believeth; to the Jew first, and also to the Greek. For therein is the righteousness of God revealed from faith to faith: as it is written, The just shall live by faith.”
‭‭Romans‬ ‭1:16-17‬ ‭

 

[Pilgrimshope]

You said "Since it was a gift, we can't lose it".
Right or wrong?

If o gave you twenty bucks as a gift it seems like if you lost it it wouldn’t change that I gave you a gift

 

[romans113336]

No.
It's also a little disingenuous to accuse someone of not paying attention to what you have written, and not even know what the other person has written.
At any rare, thanks for sharing. Grace and peace.

Nope, zero disingenuity on my part--I literally asked you whether I got it right or wrong, which was an invitation for you to clarify yourself.

If what I said was a misunderstanding, then go ahead and clarify yourself.

 

[romans113336]

think of if we remove man from the equation god speaks and declares “ let there be light “ this is true and will happen , but it isnt fulfilled though until the light shines until the work happens

“And (1) God said, Let there be light:

(2) and there was light.”
‭‭Genesis‬ ‭1:3‬ ‭KJV‬‬


Now the same principle power working through a man


“And ( 1) the LORD said unto Moses, Stretch out thine hand toward heaven, that there may be darkness over the land of Egypt, even darkness which may be felt.

( same power but now Moses is involved god includes an instruction for Moses to perform and a promise of what will happen )


And (2) Moses stretched forth his hand toward heaven;

(3) and there was a thick darkness in all the land of Egypt three days:”
‭‭Exodus‬ ‭10:21-22‬ ‭KJV‬‬


1 god declares faith . 2 man hears faith . and acts upon it 3 the declaration is Fulfilled by the effectual work declared beforehand through man. Every time god speaks it has the same power when we learn that truth and focus on what Jesus said will save us , and give us strength and life and light well understand faith and begin to believe and act upon it

just as he told Moses to life his hand toward heaven he sent what he said on the gospel to us all with a promise

“And he said unto them, Go ye into all the world, and preach the gospel to every creature.( that’s all man’s doctrine )

He that believeth and is baptized shall be saved; ( will we lift our hands like the lord invited us to do with his promise ?)

but he that believeth not shall be damned.”( or won’t we ?)
‭‭Mark‬ ‭16:15-16‬ ‭

“For I am not ashamed of the gospel of Christ: for it is the power of God unto salvation to every one that believeth; to the Jew first, and also to the Greek. For therein is the righteousness of God revealed from faith to faith: as it is written, The just shall live by faith.”
‭‭Romans‬ ‭1:16-17‬ ‭

Yeah, God's righteousness is revealed when men a) believe in the name of God's Son, and b) love one another (by serving one another by faith which works by love--hence, a believer who does not walk by faith is "condemned" Ro 14:23, because God is still judging (He doesn't just judge once when we believe), and the believer must walk in faith to experience ongoing and final justification by completing his faith by his works done in faith, according to James).

There's no way out. "Faith alone" is a false premise.

 

[romans113336]

If o gave you twenty bucks as a gift it seems like if you lost it it wouldn’t change that I gave you a gift

Yeah, I know. That's what I'm saying.

 

[Cameron143]

Nope, zero disingenuity on my part--I literally asked you whether I got it right or wrong, which was an invitation for you to clarify yourself.

If what I said was a misunderstanding, then go ahead and clarify yourself.

You accused me on an earlier post of not paying attention to what you were saying; even making reference to the thread title. And then, you can't accurately reflect what I have written.
At any rate, blessings.

 

[romans113336]

Although scripture clearly teaches that obtaining salvation is not on the basis of works (Romans 4:2-6; 11:6; Ephesians 2:8,9; Galatians 2:16; Philippians 3:9; Titus 3:5; 2 Timothy 1:9 etc..) God's judgment is on the basis of man's deeds whether good or bad. (John 5:28-29; Romans 2:5-11; 1 Corinthians 3:8; 2 Corinthians 5:10 etc..).

Yeah, that's what James is addressing--the believers he is writing to are not continuing in works, and are, therefore, being "condemned" (Ro 14:23), and will not experience ongoing and final salvation. You can only seem to have basis for explaining "Can such faith save him?" as "You see? The faith is a fake faith!" on the assumption salvation is a one-time deal. You disregard ongoing and final judgment--which is clearly going on (eg, the Lord kills people in the Corinthian Church, etc, etc, etc,).
It doesn't.
We were saved, we are being saved, we will be saved.

In Romans 2:5-11, Paul describes the deeds of two distinct groups: the redeemed/everyone who does good and the unredeemed/everyone who does evil.

Nope, literally in that passage, he's rebuking the hypocrisy of the Jewish believers, who are racist against the Gentile believers, and pointing to the Gentiles as men who will be justified and repaid eternal life when God judges because they are "doers of the Law" bc the Spirit writes God's Law on their hearts (the fulfillment of the New Covenant promise). "There is no partiality with God"--ie, "as there is with you".

Now, it's good that you "de facto" have agreed to do what ever you believe God is working in your heart, and, crucially, to not fear (God tells the fearful to go home, and only works with men who are not afraid, in order for Him to get all the glory Judges 7), so I have nothing against that, but this does not mean you are standing on solid ground in your arguments.

We reap what we sow, yet salvation is a gift received by grace through faith and not by works. (Ephesians 2:8,9)

Again, you don't understand the nature of salvation.
Paul compares it to the salvation of the Jews from Egypt (also effected by the blood of a lamb--after, being baptized, and eating communion)--after, they sinned, and, so, fell under God's wrath, and forfeited the promise made to them (the promised land--corresponding to abiding in Christ, the true Vine/Israel, where the eternal life, the Spirit, is located).

Jesus said, "If your animal fell into a ditch wouldn't you even on a Sabbath take him out?" So, we have been in bondage, and He gets us out, but that isn't the end of it--just as it wasn't the end of it when He rescued the Jews from Egypt.

In Romans 4:4-6, we read - Now to him who works, the wages are not counted as grace but as debt. But to him who does not work but believes on Him who justifies the ungodly, his faith is accounted for righteousness, just as David also describes the blessedness of the man to whom God imputes righteousness apart from works. Those who teach salvation by works typically confuse 'descriptive' passages of scripture with 'prescriptive' passages of scripture. The natural man cannot understand. (1 Corinthians 2:14)

Yep, we are saved by grace through faith apart from works--in fact, the exact inverse is true: we need salvation EXACTLY BECAUSE OF OUR EVIL WORKS!

In regard to "doers of the law" in Romans 2, context is important. Paul was talking to the Jews (Romans 2:17-24) about their judging of the Gentiles and then points them to their own law (standard of judgment) and hypocrisy and tells them that the doers of the law will be justified before God (v. 13). That leaves them out, along with everyone else. (Romans 3:22-28; Galatians 2:16; Philippians 3:9) The standard they wanted to measure up to was the law. Paul was telling them that the doers of the law will be justified. So, obey the law, obey all of it, but if you don’t obey all of it, you failed! He tells them that the Gentiles who didn't have the law according to the knowledge of the Jews were instinctively doing the things of the law (verse 14) and will be judged accordingly. How much more so the Jews?

Paul doesn't write to Jewish unbelievers. LOL
They wouldn't care what he had to say. They literally beat him with rods and stoned him.
He's addressing the Jewish believers in the Roman Church--actually, most of Romans is written to them (eg, Gentiles haven't been set free from the Law, because they never were under it, but were "without the Law" (Ro 2)--he only briefly addresses the Gentile believers in the greeting, and, then, much later, in Ro 11:13, but, considering the entire Letter is based on responses to Scriptural arguments against his Gospel, the rest of the epistle would've been very confusing to and lost on Gentile ears (they "don't know the Law" (Ro 2:14), but Jews "know the Law" (Ro 7:1)).

Paul was showing the self-righteous Jews who judged the Gentiles that they were not able to measure up to the perfect standard of the law. They were hypocrites. This is why Paul tells us in the very next chapter in Romans 3:28 that we are justified by faith apart from the works of the law. *No one was able to perfectly obey the law (except for Jesus Christ). If you fail even once (stumble in one point), then you become guilty of all. James 2:10, "For whoever keeps the whole law and yet stumbles in one point, he has become guilty of all."
Galatians 3:10, For as many as are of the works of the law are under a curse; for it is written, "Cursed is everyone who does not abide by all things written in the book of the law, to perform them." The Jews can be justified before God by keeping the Law, but he or she has to be 100% perfect. A person can’t fail even once--ever. But all have failed (Ecclesiastes 7:20; Romans 3:23; 6:23; 1 John 1:8-10), that is why man is justified before God by faith and not by the works of the law. (Romans 3:22-28, Galatians 2:16; Philippians 3:9 etc..)

In Galatians, you think the problem in Galatians is "you aren't supposed to work for salvation", and that the solution is "Christ alone"; the real problem is "you didn't receive eternal life (the Spirit) by the deeds of the Law, so why do you think the way to progress in this way would be by the deeds of the Law which are weakened by the sinful flesh (Ro 8:3; Gal 3:1-3)" and the solution is "if you received eternal life (the Spirit) by faith, and that is how you continue in eternal life (the Spirit)--serve one another by faith which works by love, since love fulfills the entire law, then walking by faith, which works by love, is the rule".

 

[romans113336]

You accused me on an earlier post of not paying attention to what you were saying; even making reference to the thread title. And then, you can't accurately reflect what I have written.
At any rate, blessings.

If I misrepresented you, it was totally by accident--it seemed clear what you were saying--then I apologize for my accident.

Now, please clarify yourself, so I can understand you, and address what you're actually saying--unless you would prefer to just remain "misunderstood" (so-called), so that I will not be able to address what you're actually saying, and you can remain a "victim" of misunderstanding, and escape with believing lies that can never be discovered since you refuse to make yourself clear (on the assumption you weren't already correctly understood).

 

[romans113336]

@mailmandan The reason I can't believe as you do is because your view is left with tons of "extra parts" laying around after you're done building your "systematic theology"--you cannot account for SO MANY doctrines in Scripture. I can't live with that kind of cognitive dissonance--I pray and ask "the only wise King" how to understand, because I am incapable on my own.

 

[romans113336]

think of if we remove man from the equation god speaks and declares “ let there be light “ this is true and will happen , but it isnt fulfilled though until the light shines until the work happens

“And (1) God said, Let there be light:

(2) and there was light.”
‭‭Genesis‬ ‭1:3‬ ‭KJV‬‬


Now the same principle power working through a man


“And ( 1) the LORD said unto Moses, Stretch out thine hand toward heaven, that there may be darkness over the land of Egypt, even darkness which may be felt.

( same power but now Moses is involved god includes an instruction for Moses to perform and a promise of what will happen )


And (2) Moses stretched forth his hand toward heaven;

(3) and there was a thick darkness in all the land of Egypt three days:”
‭‭Exodus‬ ‭10:21-22‬ ‭KJV‬‬


1 god declares faith . 2 man hears faith . and acts upon it 3 the declaration is Fulfilled by the effectual work declared beforehand through man. Every time god speaks it has the same power when we learn that truth and focus on what Jesus said will save us , and give us strength and life and light well understand faith and begin to believe and act upon it

just as he told Moses to life his hand toward heaven he sent what he said on the gospel to us all with a promise

“And he said unto them, Go ye into all the world, and preach the gospel to every creature.( that’s all man’s doctrine )

He that believeth and is baptized shall be saved; ( will we lift our hands like the lord invited us to do with his promise ?)

but he that believeth not shall be damned.”( or won’t we ?)
‭‭Mark‬ ‭16:15-16‬ ‭

“For I am not ashamed of the gospel of Christ: for it is the power of God unto salvation to every one that believeth; to the Jew first, and also to the Greek. For therein is the righteousness of God revealed from faith to faith: as it is written, The just shall live by faith.”
‭‭Romans‬ ‭1:16-17‬ ‭

1. The comparison between God's effective creating and men supposedly having works as long as they have believed one time that Jesus died and was raised:
a) You're just trying to remove man's decisions, to uphold "faith alone", so you have to subscribe to stuff that doesn't make any sense, on its own, much less does it make sense of the Scriptures.
b) Creation "obeyed" immediately, man disobeyed, so this alone disproves your thesis.

2. God's righteousness is revealed when men walk by faith--if not, they are "condemned" (Ro 14:23), which was why Paul said, "that I may be found in Him not having a righteousness of my own from the Law but God's righteousness based on faith". He's not talking about "Jesus died and was raised" alone, but the daily convictions God gives him, serving by the newness of the Spirit, doing only those things he is fully convinced are correct, serving others by faith which works by love. That is God's righteousness being revealed from faith to faith. Abraham had "footsteps of faith", not merely a moment where he believed, but FOOTSTEPS OF FAITH. Paul's statement "being found in Him having a righteousness of my own" corresponds to John's statement, "little children remain in Him so that when He appears you will not draw back in shame", of which Hebrews says "My righteous one will live by faith, but if he draws back, My soul has no pleasure in him... [draws back] to destruction."

Why does Paul concern himself with "being found in Him"? Because it is possible to not abide in Him! How? Only those who keep His commands abide in Him--and then He gives them His Spirit. Those who infract the Law of Faith, which has two parts (believe on the Name of God's Son, and love one another--walk by faith which works by love which fulfills the Law), do not abide, and the Spirit is therefore withheld. After David sinned, he cried "Do not cast me away from Your presence and do not take Your Holy Spirit away from me!"

 

[achduke7]

Reading the scripture I see what James and Paul say about faith both apply. Paul is talking about how they become saved, works does not save you. James is talking about those that are already saved. There is a difference between being saved and not being saved. Those that are saved should be doing the will of God.

 

[romans113336]

Reading the scripture I see what James and Paul say about faith both apply. Paul is talking about how they become saved, works does not save you. James is talking about those that are already saved. There is a difference between being saved and not being saved. Those that are saved should be doing the will of God.

Exactly.
We are saved.
Now, we are going to be saved, and, since we're on our way, we are described as being saved.

1 Corinthians 15
2and by which [Gospel] you are being saved, *if you hold fast to the word I preached to you—unless you believed in vain.
*So it's not referring to "souls being added daily", but to the ones who have already believed, and been saved.

The person drowning will perish without intervention, so he is said to be "perishing" (in the middle of perishing)--the unbelievers are on their way to perdition, so they "are perishing", and the believers, who are on their way to final "salvation" are "being saved".

2 Corinthians 2
15For we are the aroma of Christ to God among those who are being saved and among those who are perishing, 16to one a fragrance from death to death, to the other a fragrance from life to life. Who is sufficient for these things?

 

[cv5]

God's righteousness is revealed when men walk by faith--if not, they are "condemned" (Ro 14:23)

You are misapplying that verse to undergird you entire thesis like a total rube.
A total abject failure to grasp of what the intent of the chapter and that verse is meant to convey.
And NO, God is NOT condemning ANYBODY if they eat or don't eat!

Rom 14:23
And he that doubteth is damned if he eat, because he eateth not of faith: for whatsoever is not of faith is sin.

 

[romans113336]

Reading the scripture I see what James and Paul say about faith both apply. Paul is talking about how they become saved, works does not save you. James is talking about those that are already saved. There is a difference between being saved and not being saved. Those that are saved should be doing the will of God.

Also, Paul teaches the same as James--look at Ro 2:6-16, and at Ro 14:23, where only the doer of good is justified, and is repaid eternal life (the Spirit), and the one who does not walk by faith is "condemned".

 

[romans113336]

You are misapplying that verse to undergird you entire thesis like a total rube.
A total abject failure to grasp of what the intent of the chapter and that verse is meant to convey.
And NO, God is NOT condemning ANYBODY if they eat or don't eat!

Rom 14:23
And he that doubteth is damned if he eat, because he eateth not of faith: for whatsoever is not of faith is sin.

1. Prove I'm misapplying it.
2. All hell was unleashed on humankind because Adam ate, so you really are lost on this aren't you?
3. Yes, the man is condemned if he infracts the Law of Faith--"let every man be fully convinced in his own mind" (Ro 14:5). "Faith which works by love"--and the command is "believe on the NAme of God's Son, AND LOVE ONE ANOTHER [walk by faith]"! If we obey Christ's commands, we abide in Him, and only those who abide in Him are given His Spirit.

 

[Inquisitor]

Yeah, God's righteousness is revealed when men a) believe in the name of God's Son, and b) love one another (by serving one another by faith which works by love--hence, a believer who does not walk by faith is "condemned" Ro 14:23, because God is still judging (He doesn't just judge once when we believe), and the believer must walk in faith to experience ongoing and final justification by completing his faith by his works done in faith, according to James).

There's no way out. "Faith alone" is a false premise.

Can you explain the way you understand Romans 14:23?

 

[cv5]

@mailmandan The reason I can't believe as you do is because your view is left with tons of "extra parts" laying around after you're done building your "systematic theology"--you cannot account for SO MANY doctrines in Scripture. I can't live with that kind of cognitive dissonance--I pray and ask "the only wise King" how to understand, because I am incapable on my own.

Cognitive dissonance? You are severely afflicted alright.

I have created a handy acronym suitable for your position as follows:

ISMSUFNAOUTFFS(FOI)OSWOYOF
If saved maybe saved until further notice, and/or until the first failure, sin (forgotten or intentional) or slightest wavering of your own faith.

As for myself, I believe in the following:

ISAS
If saved always saved.