Works Determine Whether you go to Heaven or Hell

[Angela53510]

On a side note your 3rd point is a mistranslation. First I'll show you the KJV, then throw some logic at ya. God gave us free will, with what you quoted in the version you read (btw KJV is not unreadable -_-) is promoting Calvinism. So let me quote the KJV for ya:

Romans 8:30

King James Version (KJV)

[SUP]30 [/SUP]Moreover whom he did predestinate, them he also called: and whom he called, them he also justified: and whom he justified, them he also glorified.



So when you read that you think... well wait a minute, I thought I had free will? Does this mean from the beginning God chose who Goes to heaven and who goes to hell.... or does it mean that God knows what choices you will make?

Or does that mean that, if you are correct, that God chose for people to burn in hell, for abominations to happen, to plan for the devil to exist, to plan for fallen angels, etc. etc.... or does it mean he knew what choices you would make? Think about it logically and you'll figure out your answer.

I can send you a video that explains this with a pastor, or you can just think about it.

If there is a mistake in translation, it is always going to be the KJV that has the mistake, not the ESV. ESV uses the earliest manuscripts, not ones from the 10th century onwards, which have been embellished by Greek Byzantium scribes. To say nothing of the fact that most of the KJV is based on Erasmus' translation, some of which was done not from Greek or Hebrew, but from Jerome's Latin Vulgate. And where the Catholic Church would not let him change the translation to something which was more accurate, KJV copied those mistakes!**

So let us look at your mistakes, in several translations in the Greek.

"And those whom he predestined he also called, and those whom he called he also justified, and those whom he justified he also glorified." Romans 8:30 ESV

"And those He predestined, He also called; and those He called, He also justified; and those He justified, He also glorified." Romans 8:30 HCSB

"and these whom He predestined, He also called; and these whom He called, He also justified; and these whom He justified, He also glorified." Romans 8:30 NASB

And of course the Greek:

"οὓς δὲ προώρισεν, τούτους καὶ ἐκάλεσεν· καὶ οὓς ἐκάλεσεν, τούτους καὶ ἐδικαίωσεν· οὓς δὲ ἐδικαίωσεν, τούτους καὶ ἐδόξασεν." Romans 8:30 Greek.

Key words:
προώρισεν - Aorist Indicative Active - to mark out a boundary beforehand, to predestine. Aorist views the completed act

ἐκάλεσεν· - Aorist Indicative Active - to call. Completed action in the past

ἐδικαίωσεν - Aorist Indicative Active - to declare to be in the right. To justify. Completed action in the past

ἐδόξασεν - Aorist Indicative Active - to glory. Aorist speaks of God who sees the end from the beginning, and in whose decree and purpose all future events are comprehended and fixed.

Not exactly seeing where my mistake is.

And who said anything about believing in free will. In fact, the only time free will is even mentioned in the Bible is out of the lips of Artaxerxes, king of Babylon, with regards to him thinking that he is allowing the Israelites to go back to Jerusalem, when in fact, it is God who is allowing them to go, and only in some 21st Century King James version.

“Artaxerxes, king of kings, unto Ezra the priest, a scribe of the law of the God of heaven. Perfect peace, and at such a time.[SUP]13 [/SUP]I make a decree that all those of the people of Israel and of his priests and Levites in my realm, who are minded of their own free will to go up to Jerusalem, go with thee." Ezra 7:12-13 21st Century KJV


"Artaxerxes, king of kings, to Ezra the priest, the scribe of the Law of the God of heaven. Peace.[SUP][a][/SUP] And now [SUP]13 [/SUP]I make a decree that anyone of the people of Israel or their priests or Levites in my kingdom, who freely offers to go to Jerusalem, may go with you." Ezra 7:12-13 ESV

"Free will" is a term coined by human beings, not God in the Bible. I believe people chose to go to hell, but God has foreseen who that is, and also who is justified, called and glorified by his great hand.

In fact, I think I am seeing your problem, which is that you will not allow your humanly made God to condemn people to hell, but you think the right to salvation belongs to humans, who must then earn it by their works. Sadly, this is very unbiblical, and in fact, the Bible says the exact opposite.

"What shall we say then? Is there injustice on God's part? By no means! [SUP]15 [/SUP]For he says to Moses, “I will have mercy on whom I have mercy, and I will have compassion on whom I have compassion.” [SUP]16 [/SUP]So then it depends not on human will or exertion, but on God, who has mercy. [SUP]17 [/SUP]For the Scripture says to Pharaoh, “For this very purpose I have raised you up, that I might show my power in you, and that my name might be proclaimed in all the earth.” [SUP]18 [/SUP]So then he has mercy on whomever he wills, and he hardens whomever he wills." Romans 9:14-18

God is in control, even if you do not think he is. And one day, I pray you will see that God is sovereign, not need to justify some imaginary unbiblical free will choice and works to earn salvation.

** Please get a copy and read: The King James Only Controversy: Can You Trust Modern Translations? 2nd Ed. by James R. White, Bethany House, Minneapolis, Minnesota, 2009.

(ChosenbyHim - you should also consider reading this easy to read yet scholarly book on the topic of translations.)

 

[crossnote]

I have read those verses a thousand times, in context! I have to wonder if you read the ones I wrote in my post. Or in the other post in a recent thread, where I went into the Greek tenses, showing that the verbs are in the aorist passive tense. Meaning salvation was done by God, and is a completed action in the past.

Do you know what cherry picking is? It is when you pull a verse out of context, do not adhere to the cultural or grammatical context, and come up with false doctrine. It happens all the time these days. As I said, I have read all your verses, but in modern English, or Greek. I don't speak 1611 English, so I won't read them. However, I did look at the references, and realized how you are just cherry picking verses, doing eisegesis to prove a theory, instead of reading the Bible deeply, in context, to understand the truth of God being sovereign with regards to both salvation and everything else. Works are something that comes after salvation, as part of our walk to maturity, as we serve God, because of the joy of knowing he loves us and has saved us from sin and death. (Eph. 2:10)

And he does NOT cast people out, contrary to your verses. But of course, that has been explained to you so many times. You only think your posts are valid, and the verses you pick, rather than reading the Bible as a whole.

You need to study the grammatical-historical method of hermeneutics, plus the Biblical languages, and then you might be qualified to explain some passages which you think might support your position, should you still be in error about whether works or grace saves.

Grammatical-Historical Hermeneutics For Lay Readers

What Is Grammatical-Historical Interpretation & Why Is It Important?

"The grammatico-historical sense of a writer is such an interpretation of his language as is required by the laws of grammar and the facts of history. Sometimes we speak of the literal sense, by which we mean the most simple, direct, and ordinary meaning of phrases and sentences. By this term we usually denote a meaning opposed to the figurative or metaphorical. The grammatical sense is essentially the same as the literal, the one expression being derived from the Greek, the other from the Latin. But in English usage the word grammatical is applied rather to the arrangement and construction of words and sentences. By the historical sense we designate, rather, the meaning of an author's words that is required by historical considerations. It demands that we consider carefully the time of the author, and the circumstances under which he wrote..A fundamental principle in grammatico-historical exposition is that words and sentences can have but one significance in one and the same connection. The moment we neglect this principle we drift out upon a sea of uncertainty and conjecture.[SUP]1"[/SUP]

You must spread some Reputation around before giving it to Angela53510 again.

 

[Angela53510]

Just found this verse. I always love it when God gives me a new verse, that I never really understood before!

"And when the Gentiles heard this, they began rejoicing and glorifying the word of the Lord, and as many as were appointed to eternal life believed." Acts 13:48

 

[JGIG]

When (and if) you get to heaven...Happy Boasting!

^^^ This. ^^^

 

[JGIG]

You can quote scripture and say over and over that God doesn't care or look at our works, and it simply is not what God says. The definition of grace is not "don't work to please God". The definition includes the forgiveness without our earning it. When evil in men make it say to not try to do any of God's work, it is not God saying it, it is the evil in men.

We are in the last days, we have the opportunity to look at ourselves now. When Christ returns to judge us, Christ will look at our works. God is ready for us with grace, but our judgment will be on how we use that grace.

Grace isn't 'used', it's received.

-JGIG

 

[ChosenbyHim]

If there is a mistake in translation, it is always going to be the KJV that has the mistake, not the ESV.

Incorrect Angela, if there is a mistake in translation, then it will always be with the modern versions.


There are no errors or mistakes in the King James Bible.

The error is in your understanding.

ESV uses the earliest manuscripts,

The so called "earliest manuscripts" which the ESV uses are the notoriously corrupt Siniaticus and vaticanus manuscripts. To see just how corrupt these two manuscripts are which nearly ALL the modern versions are based on, click on the link below:


The Characteristics of Vaticanus and Sinaiticus


Not only is the ESV corrupt, but it has already been revised three times within a 10 year period ( 2001, 2007, and 2011). Its english text has been changed in hundreds of verses.


The ESV is just another modern Vatican version. Also, the ESV has rejected many of the Hebrew readings of the Old Testament, for proof of this, click on this second link which is given below:


NIV, NASB reject Hebrew - Another King James Bible Believer

not ones from the 10th century onwards, which have been embellished by Greek Byzantium scribes.

Just incredible! More misinformation. You must be getting this stuff from James White.

On page 257 of Dean Burgon's book (Revision Revised), Mr. Burgon cites the following quote from Fenton John Anthony Hort:


"The fundamental Text of late extant Greek MSS generally is beyond all question identical with the dominant Antiochian or Graeco-Syrian Text of the second half of the 4th century."

And following this quote; Dean Burgon writes the following comment:


"We request, in passing, that the foregoing statement may be carefully noted. The Traditional Greek Text of the New Testament, - the Textus Receptus, in short - is, according to Dr. Hort, 'Beyond All Question The Text of the Second Half of The Fourth Century.'

Furthermore, how about the following Byzantine text type manuscripts which are form the 7th and 8th centuries:

- Princeton's 047
- Codex Basilensis

Or how about these 6th century Byzantine text type manuscripts:

- Codex Guelfernytanus A
- Codex Rossanensis
- Codex Nitriensis
- Codex Petropolitanus
- Codex Sinopensis.


[HR][/HR]
Therefore Angela, your statement which basically implied the idea that the Byzantine texts are no earlier than the 10th century is simply wrong.

To say nothing of the fact that most of the KJV is based on Erasmus' translation, some of which was done not from Greek or Hebrew, but from Jerome's Latin Vulgate.

And yet another misrepresentation of the facts.


In the New Testament, most of the KJV is based upon Beza's readings and Stephanus' readings. And while the KJV is also based upon a good number of Erasmus' readings as well, still though, the King James Bible is based primarliy upon Beza's fifth edition (1598).

** Please get a copy and read: The King James Only Controversy: Can You Trust Modern Translations? 2nd Ed. by James R. White, Bethany House, Minneapolis, Minnesota, 2009.

If you are going to buy a copy of James White's book of misinformation, then you need to at least get a book that has the correct information:





Or you could get this book:

(ChosenbyHim - you should also consider reading this easy to read yet scholarly book on the topic of translations.)

Angela, I do not trust James White. He has been proven many times to be a Liar.

Here is just one out of the twenty two videos where brother Ed Pfenninger documents and exposes James White as the liar and fraud that he is:

James White lies about Erasmus and 1Jn. 5:7

[video=youtube;JR_a7SiMgYg]http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=JR_a7SiMgYg[/video]

Published on Jun 10, 2013In this video, I show that White ignores the evidence that Erasmus did not put in 1Jn.5:7 as a promise.
As Erasmus' foremost biographer (H.J.de Jong) attests, Erasmus wrote years afterward that it was a challenge to find a Mss, not a promise, and Rummel commenting on Erasmus' Annotations, states that Erasmus put in the verse willingly and was not 'constrained' to do so, as White asserts in his 1st edtion (Maynard, p.283)
In his 2nd edit. White uses the words 'possibly' and 'inherent promise' knowing that nothing of the sort has ever been proven. He then adds on a 2nd 'possiblity' that Erasmus added it to get his Latin translaton accepted, again, without a shred of evidence. This is the 'scholarship' of James White!
It remained in the next 2 editions and all remaining TR editions

 

[just-me]

Just found this verse. I always love it when God gives me a new verse, that I never really understood before!

"And when the Gentiles heard this, they began rejoicing and glorifying the word of the Lord, and as many as were appointed to eternal life believed." Acts 13:48

Isaiah 49:6 (KJV)
[SUP]6 [/SUP]And he said, It is a light thing that thou shouldest be my servant to raise up the tribes of Jacob, and to restore the preserved of Israel: I will also give thee for a light to the Gentiles, that thou mayest be my salvation unto the end of the earth.

Acts 13:47-48 (KJV)
[SUP]47 [/SUP]For so hath the Lord commanded us, saying, I have set thee to be a light of the Gentiles, that thou shouldest be for salvation unto the ends of the earth.
[SUP]48 [/SUP]And when the Gentiles heard this, they were glad, and glorified the word of the Lord: and as many as were ordained to eternal life believed.

Ordained/appointed meaning to be brought out from underneath, and re-positioned out from under.

5021. tasso tas'-so a prolonged form of a primary verb (which latter appears only in certain tenses); to arrange in an orderly manner, i.e. assign or dispose (to a certain position or lot):--addict, appoint, determine, ordain, set.

5293. hupotasso hoop-ot-as'-so from 5259 and 5021; to subordinate; reflexively, to obey:--be under obedience (obedient), put under, subdue unto, (be, make) *subject (to, unto), be (put) in subjection (to, under), submit self unto.

5259. hupo hoop-o' a primary preposition; under, i.e. (with the genitive case) of place (beneath), or with verbs (the agency or means, through); (with the accusative case) of place (whither (underneath) or where (below) or time (when (at)):--among, by, from, in, of, under, with. In the comparative, it retains the same general applications, especially of inferior position or condition, and specially, covertly or moderately.

This reminded me of the thread [h=3]What makes it impossible for a carnal mind to be subject to the law?[/h]
Post #15. The way not to be under the law is to be re positioned, knowing the law isn't changed, we are.

Romans 8:6-8 (KJV)
[SUP]6 [/SUP]For to be carnally minded is death; but to be spiritually minded is life and peace.
[SUP]7 [/SUP]Because the carnal mind is enmity against God: for it is not *subject to the law of God, neither indeed can be.
[SUP]8 [/SUP]So then they that are in the flesh cannot please God.

Romans 6:14 (KJV)
[SUP]14 [/SUP]For sin shall not have dominion over you: for ye are not under the law, but under grace.

Good post sis. No wonder they rejoiced!!!!!

 

[Apostol2013]

Now the works are a part of faith i have studied theology and many other parts of study at a higher level i not only study the history the different theologies or areas of studies even studying the origins being the people writting the books their background i study their whole testimony even of their faith beliefs and if possible their teachers i i can say tgis an education is a good thing . But when one goes astray of the true gospel noT like the one taught by the half serving or not really born again not to be isultive but just stating the obvious . I learned to be led by the Spirit is the best way to come up with the best method of interpretation and improves theology to what it ought to be

 

[Apostol2013]

Sorry i posted that one too early these cell phones are complicated sometimes but works go hand in hand with faith but the works involved we have to keep in mind they are not of our own if based on the Word of God propperly interpreted and exercised in our lives .

 

[p_rehbein]

Oh NO! My dear Sister in Christ................my heart aches............ (well, a little bit)

QUOTE:


"Free will" is a term coined by human beings, not God in the Bible. I believe people chose to go to hell, but God has foreseen who that is, and also who is justified, called and glorified by his great hand.

END QUOTE........

Question............why don't people quote the entire Scripture from Romans Chapter 8?

8:29) For whom he did foreknow, he also did predestinate to be conformed to the image of his Son, that he might be the firstborn among many brethren.
30 .) Moreover whom he did predestinate, them he also called: and whom he called, them he also justified: and whom he justified, them he also glorified.

(it may be time to dig out my commentary on this one........... )

 

[DavidLOVESsnow]

James 4:17 speaks of not doing good is sin. We all know that scripture says the wages of sin is death and the soul that sins shall die. 1John 3:8 even says that anyone who sins is "of the devil". Hence we can see from this that James 4:17 speaks of those who can be charged with "sin". that is those in unbelief (which is the sin the world is convicted of, John 16:9).

So we see the context of James 4 shows that the "good" it refers to is to believe in Jesus.



Note 1Cor 2:14 to see how it refers to scripture, as shared through the likes of Paul himself.
These things we also speak, not in words which man’s wisdom teaches but which the Holy Spirit teaches, comparing spiritual things with spiritual.



1Cor 10:3,4 clearly describes Christ as our spiritual food and drink. This cannot be denied.
Man can be physically hungry and also spiritually hungry. Its the spiritual hunger and thirst that scripture deals with, which is the point I was making about Matt 25.



I'm not sure what you refer to here as you have not made direct reference to which scripture I quoted. But I can assure you it is all spiritual what I was referring to. As for whether one can see it or not depends on our individual level of spiritual understanding at this time.




Grace applies to physical Israel just as much as to non-Israelite.
I refer you to Rom 2:29 which clearly shows that physical Israel are not Jews. Physical Israel are really Gentiles/Sinners needing to hear the gospel of grace just as much as anyone else.
Rom 2:29
but he is a Jew who is one inwardly; and circumcision is that of the heart, in the Spirit, not in the letter; whose praise is not from men but from God.



I fail to see how you have shown any alleged flaw at all. I suggest its best to just quote scripture to support one's claim instead of making unsupported claims of showing another's "flawed" understanding.



I suspect we'll disagree, but what do you claim these "good works" to be?

Now to address another one of your other points.


Note above that it speaks about doing the will of God.
What is the will of God?
John 6:40
this is the will of Him who sent Me, that everyone who sees the Son and believes in Him may have everlasting life; and I will raise him up at the last day

Note how this confirms what Jesus said in John 6:29, that our works are to believe in him.


I'm curious whether you see the picking up serpents and drinking deadly things, etc, as physical or spiritual?
If you see it as physical have you been picking up snakes and drinking poison lately? Have you been casting out devils physically and laying hands on the physically sick to heal them?

If not, then are you saying that you will go to hell because you do not have such "good"works on your record?

Alright, Im finally back. I've got LOTS of responding to do, and lots of homework still. It's 2:30 in the morning but its time to get this debate going. Okay, so Im going to devote 1 comment per post, to make things simple. This here is starting on post #48.

I disagree with you again. First I would like to quote 1John 3:8. Itself talks about doing works [ironically]:

[h=3]1 John 3:8[/h]King James Version (KJV)

[SUP]8 [/SUP]He that committeth sin is of the devil; for the devil sinneth from the beginning. For this purpose the Son of God was manifested, that he might destroy the works of the devil.

The context of 1 John 3:8 is labelling sin as works of the devil. It already contrasts that there are good works and bad works. So here is where it shows the context of James Is talking about works. Its saying sin is works of the devil, therefore James is talking about works of God. Being good deeds, which the many quotes I supplied are talking about.

Let me post 1 Corinthians 2:14 again, and then show you with other scriptures how your logic makes no sense. First, 1 Corinthians 2:14:


[h=3]1 Corinthians 2:14[/h]King James Version (KJV)

[SUP]14 [/SUP]But the natural man receiveth not the things of the Spirit of God: for they are foolishness unto him: neither can he know them, because they are spiritually discerned.

^-- this is saying that things of God are spirtual. It does not mean the Bible has no literal context and is completely spiritual. This means that carnal things, or things of this world or physical things are not God. Thats why it says "But the natural man receiveth not the things of the Spirit of God....neither can he know them, because they are spirituall discerned." This is not talking about Scripture being spiritual at all. Like I said before, if you are honest about your perspective, then is Noah's Arc spiritually and never happened[even though many tribes in the world, or even the story of gilgamesh cite such things happening]? Or does that mean that the Garden of Eden doesnt exist?[even though it has rivers that go towards ethiopia which is a real place]. You see the problem with that logic?


I now ask, did you read anything that I said? I told you that 1 Corinthians 10:3-4 is talking about Numbers 20: 1-12. I will post them both below so you can understand that:


[h=3]1 Corinthians 10:3-4[/h]King James Version (KJV)

[SUP]3 [/SUP]And did all eat the same spiritual meat;
[SUP]4 [/SUP]And did all drink the same spiritual drink: for they drank of that spiritual Rock that followed them: and that Rock was Christ.



[h=3]Numbers 20:1-12[/h]King James Version (KJV)

20 Then came the children of Israel, even the whole congregation, into the desert of Zin in the first month: and the people abode in Kadesh; and Miriam died there, and was buried there.
[SUP]2 [/SUP]And there was no water for the congregation: and they gathered themselves together against Moses and against Aaron.
[SUP]3 [/SUP]And the people chode with Moses, and spake, saying, Would God that we had died when our brethren died before the Lord!
[SUP]4 [/SUP]And why have ye brought up the congregation of the Lord into this wilderness, that we and our cattle should die there?
[SUP]5 [/SUP]And wherefore have ye made us to come up out of Egypt, to bring us in unto this evil place? it is no place of seed, or of figs, or of vines, or of pomegranates; neither is there any water to drink.
[SUP]6 [/SUP]And Moses and Aaron went from the presence of the assembly unto the door of the tabernacle of the congregation, and they fell upon their faces: and the glory of the Lord appeared unto them.
[SUP]7 [/SUP]And the Lord spake unto Moses, saying,
[SUP]8 [/SUP]Take the rod, and gather thou the assembly together, thou, and Aaron thy brother, and speak ye unto the rock before their eyes; and it shall give forth his water, and thou shalt bring forth to them water out of the rock: so thou shalt give the congregation and their beasts drink.
[SUP]9 [/SUP]And Moses took the rod from before the Lord, as he commanded him.
[SUP]10[/SUP]And Moses and Aaron gathered the congregation together before the rock, and he said unto them, Hear now, ye rebels; must we fetch you water out of this rock?
[SUP]11 [/SUP]And Moses lifted up his hand, and with his rod he smote the rock twice: and the water came out abundantly, and the congregation drank, and their beasts also.
[SUP]12 [/SUP]And the Lord spake unto Moses and Aaron, Because ye believed me not, to sanctify me in the eyes of the children of Israel, therefore ye shall not bring this congregation into the land which I have given them.


I bolded the key points. It says clearly that because they did not speak unto the rock, and believe that the rock would give them water instead of smiting it, that they would not enter the promised land. However, when you also read the 1 Corinthia10:3-4 above, you see that it is referring to Numbers 20:1-12. I showed you this twice now, please read it all this time.

 

[DavidLOVESsnow]

This is part 2 of the last post. The quick reply system was messing up. So instead, I will continue my respond to post #48 here. The last thing I talked about was how Numbers 20:1-12 is what 1 Corinthians 10:3-4 is talking about. On to the rest:

The quotes you were talking about had nothing to do with the subject. Here, I'll post them all below:

Who are those in spiritual prison?
It's those who are without Christ.
Isa 61:1
The Spirit of the Lord God is upon me; because the Lord hath anointed me to preach good tidings unto the meek; he hath sent me to bind up the brokenhearted, to proclaim liberty to the captives, and the opening of the prison to them that are bound;


And what is the state of mankind without Christ?
It's sick, and needing to hear the gospel of Christ.
Isa 1:5-6
Why should ye be stricken any more? ye will revolt more and more: the whole head is sick, and the whole heart faint. From the sole of the foot even unto the head there is no soundness in it; but wounds, and bruises, and putrifying sores: they have not been closed, neither bound up, neither mollified with ointment.


And how are the naked clothed?
Isa 61:10
I will greatly rejoice in the Lord, My soul shall be joyful in my God; For He has clothed me with the garments of salvation, He has covered me with the robe of righteousness,


And who is the stranger?
Eph 2:12
that at that time you were without Christ, being aliens from the commonwealth of Israel and strangers from the covenants of promise, having no hope and without God in the world.


Eph 2:19
Now, therefore, you are no longer strangers and foreigners, but fellow citizens with the saints and members of the household of God,

Okay, so lets go throug these one by one so I can show you they are irrelevant.

Isa 61:1 - has absolutely nothing to do with our debate. I agree with this quote, it's scripture. However, it does not prove anything for on topic discussions.

Isa 1:5-6 - same thing with this quote. It has nothing to do with our on topic discussion.

Isa 61:10 - same with this one.

Eph 2:12 - same with this one. I see what your argument was, but the scripture does not say what you are saying it is.

Eph 2:19 - same with this one. This is not saying that what I quoted earlier about James is wrong, or about Matthew 25:31-46.

On Romans 2:29 its better to read Romans 2:25-29. It talks about how circumcision is rendered useless. It is saying that the Jews before who had to be circumcised is useless, because inside is what matters. It is not saying that they are actually Jews. Read the quotes below please:

[h=3]Romans 2:25-29[/h]King James Version (KJV)

[SUP]25 [/SUP]For circumcision verily profiteth, if thou keep the law: but if thou be a breaker of the law, thy circumcision is made uncircumcision.
[SUP]26 [/SUP]Therefore if the uncircumcision keep the righteousness of the law, shall not his uncircumcision be counted for circumcision?
[SUP]27 [/SUP]And shall not uncircumcision which is by nature, if it fulfil the law, judge thee, who by the letter and circumcision dost transgress the law?
[SUP]28 [/SUP]For he is not a Jew, which is one outwardly; neither is that circumcision, which is outward in the flesh:
[SUP]29 [/SUP]But he is a Jew, which is one inwardly; and circumcision is that of the heart, in the spirit, and not in the letter; whose praise is not of men, but of God.



Okay since your next part is about how my thing does not have understanding, I will quote the Bible quotes here again for you to undestand:

James 2:14-17
King James Version (KJV)
[SUP]14 [/SUP]What doth it profit, my brethren, though a man say he hath faith, and have not works? can faith save him?
[SUP]15 [/SUP]If a brother or sister be naked, and destitute of daily food,
[SUP]16 [/SUP]And one of you say unto them, Depart in peace, be ye warmed and filled; notwithstanding ye give them not those things which are needful to the body; what doth it profit?
[SUP]17 [/SUP]Even so faith, if it hath not works, is dead, being alone.
James 2:18

King James Version (KJV)
[SUP]18 [/SUP]Yea, a man may say, Thou hast faith, and I have works: shew me thy faith without thy works, and I will shew thee my faith by my works.

James 2:26

King James Version (KJV)
[SUP]26 [/SUP]For as the body without the spirit is dead, so faith without works is dead also.

2 Timothy 3:17

King James Version (KJV)
[SUP]17 [/SUP]That the man of God may be perfect, thoroughly furnished unto all good works.


^-- says how works are a part of faith.


Titus 1:16
King James Version (KJV)
[SUP]16 [/SUP]They profess that they know God; but in works they deny him, being abominable, and disobedient, and unto every good work reprobate.

James 4:17

King James Version (KJV)
[SUP]17 [/SUP]Therefore to him that knoweth to do good, and doeth it not, to him it is sin.

^--- says how if you dont do good works when you know you should its a sin. It also shows how people who believe in God and dont do good works are bad.


Matthew 25:31-46

King James Version (KJV)
[SUP]31 [/SUP]When the Son of man shall come in his glory, and all the holy angels with him, then shall he sit upon the throne of his glory:
[SUP]32 [/SUP]And before him shall be gathered all nations: and he shall separate them one from another, as a shepherd divideth his sheep from the goats:
[SUP]33 [/SUP]And he shall set the sheep on his right hand, but the goats on the left.
[SUP]34 [/SUP]Then shall the King say unto them on his right hand, Come, ye blessed of my Father, inherit the kingdom prepared for you from the foundation of the world:
[SUP]35 [/SUP]For I was an hungred, and ye gave me meat: I was thirsty, and ye gave me drink: I was a stranger, and ye took me in:
[SUP]36 [/SUP]Naked, and ye clothed me: I was sick, and ye visited me: I was in prison, and ye came unto me.
[SUP]37 [/SUP]Then shall the righteous answer him, saying, Lord, when saw we thee an hungred, and fed thee? or thirsty, and gave thee drink?
[SUP]38 [/SUP]When saw we thee a stranger, and took thee in? or naked, and clothed thee?
[SUP]39 [/SUP]Or when saw we thee sick, or in prison, and came unto thee?
[SUP]40 [/SUP]And the King shall answer and say unto them, Verily I say unto you, Inasmuch as ye have done it unto one of the least of these my brethren, ye have done it unto me.
[SUP]41 [/SUP]Then shall he say also unto them on the left hand, Depart from me, ye cursed, into everlasting fire, prepared for the devil and his angels:
[SUP]42 [/SUP]For I was an hungred, and ye gave me no meat: I was thirsty, and ye gave me no drink:
[SUP]43 [/SUP]I was a stranger, and ye took me not in: naked, and ye clothed me not: sick, and in prison, and ye visited me not.
[SUP]44 [/SUP]Then shall they also answer him, saying, Lord, when saw we thee an hungred, or athirst, or a stranger, or naked, or sick, or in prison, and did not minister unto thee?
[SUP]45 [/SUP]Then shall he answer them, saying, Verily I say unto you, Inasmuch as ye did it not to one of the least of these, ye did it not to me.
[SUP]46 [/SUP]And these shall go away into everlasting punishment: but the righteous into life eternal.

Matthew 7:21-23

King James Version (KJV)
[SUP]21 [/SUP]Not every one that saith unto me, Lord, Lord, shall enter into the kingdom of heaven; but he that doeth the will of my Father which is in heaven.
[SUP]22 [/SUP]Many will say to me in that day, Lord, Lord, have we not prophesied in thy name? and in thy name have cast out devils? and in thy name done many wonderful works?
[SUP]23 [/SUP]And then will I profess unto them, I never knew you: depart from me, ye that work iniquity.

^-- consequences of not doing good works.



Mark 16:16-18

King James Version (KJV)
[SUP]16 [/SUP]He that believeth and is baptized shall be saved; but he that believeth not shall be damned.
[SUP]17 [/SUP]And these signs shall follow them that believe; In my name shall they cast out devils; they shall speak with new tongues;
[SUP]18 [/SUP]They shall take up serpents; and if they drink any deadly thing, it shall not hurt them; they shall lay hands on the sick, and they shall recover.

^-- proof that people in Matthew 7:21-23 were real Christians.


That is the shortened version I posted for someone else. It proves my point very quickly. If you want just re-read the OP and it'll make more sense, but scriptures prove it themselves.

Good works themselves are illustrated in the quotes I posted, I'd appreciate it if you read everything first please.

You can claim that believing in him is all that matters, but your perspective is easily debunked when you read Mark 16:16-18. I posted it above. They believed in Jesus. They cast out demons. But they did not do the good works required. I am not saying what is in Mark16-16-18 is good works, you misunderstand. Let me break it down:

Matthew 7:21-23 outlines why they went to hell.
Mark 16:16-18 outlines how they believed in Jesus Christ and were followers of him.

That shows how it was because of works they went to hell, not because they cast out serpents. Now to explain why this happens. God doesn't allow them to cast out demons because the person themself is very holy, no that is not why. It is because he loves his people. He doesn't want his people possessed, etc. Thats why those people who do those things yet dont do any good works end up in hell, its because the whole casting out demons thing was no work of their own.

Understand now? Please read everything this time because you skipped a lot of what I said the first time.

 

[DavidLOVESsnow]

The answer I gave to SeaBass I am going to give to you, therefore I will just paste what I wrote to him. As I said, with this post it is the end of the topic, you can't get past the conclusion.

I must say, that is one of the silliest arguments I have ever heard and more so, that it is being said to try and argue a point of works being necessary. By the very definition of what a Christian is, it entails a good work of some kind will happen(in their life time) due to how God changes our nature and the indwelling of the Holy Spirit, who gives us the fruits of the Holy Spirit. One of which is the fruit of LOVE and love will cause us to do something that is considered to be a good work.

See now, a work of some kind WILL happen, but its not of ourselves but out of what God makes us and produces in us (the fruits). This is not to say, "See! Works are necessary! Ha! Gotcha!" On the contrary, it is IMPOSSIBLE to be saved and not yield fruit, because by being saved we are born-again, receiving a new nature, and of course, the fruits of the Spirit. (besides the thief, death bed confessions, and the like of not having a chance to bear fruit, yet still saved). To argue that works are then necessary for salvation is to deny death bed confessions, someone who had the opportunity to help someone and didn't, and the thief on the cross, from receiving salvation. You can't argue against the thief by saying he was under OT Law, because he confessed Christ believing what He would do (accomplish) just as the many people saved from Sheol were saved in those three days Christ was dead, until His resurrection because of Christ (and the promise).

Do you see how silly such an argument is? A musician will play an instrument, therefore if he doesn't play an instrument he isn't a musician. No duh... good job Sherlock! A Christian will produce some kind of good works, but the works didnt give him salvation and they neither maintain his salvation.

As it says on one site: Think of it this way. If it was your birthday and a friend came and gave you a gift , something that you really wanted you'd be very thankful. but what if you pulled out your wallet and said let me pay you for your gift. That would be a real insult to him. He gave it to you out of love not asking for anything in return

In 1 Corinthians 3:15 it tells us of a man whose works are all burned yet he still has salvation.

So to answer your question, of whether works are necessary for salvation. NO they aren't, because in scripture we have an example of a man being left with no work standing and he is still saved! You can't get past that, he had no works standing, they were of no merit, yet he was still saved!

1 Corinthians 3:15

King James Version (KJV)

15 If any man's work shall be burned, he shall suffer loss: but he himself shall be saved; yet so as by fire.

Salvation is by grace, through faith in Jesus Christ. (no works necessary) Works do not maintain that salvation, once one has it, as is clearly seen in 1 Corinthians 3:15.

/End of topic

Just would like to say, I don't like how you just assume you are right without even reading or commenting on what my original post was. It is very disrespectful. Regardless, I will respond like I said I would.

On the first paragraph, I will cite back to these Bible verses that were in my OP:

[h=3]Matthew 7:21-23[/h]King James Version (KJV)

[SUP]21 [/SUP]Not every one that saith unto me, Lord, Lord, shall enter into the kingdom of heaven; but he that doeth the will of my Father which is in heaven.
[SUP]22 [/SUP]Many will say to me in that day, Lord, Lord, have we not prophesied in thy name? and in thy name have cast out devils? and in thy name done many wonderful works?
[SUP]23 [/SUP]And then will I profess unto them, I never knew you: depart from me, ye that work iniquity.

[h=3]Mark 16:16-18[/h]King James Version (KJV)

[SUP]16 [/SUP]He that believeth and is baptized shall be saved; but he that believeth not shall be damned.
[SUP]17 [/SUP]And these signs shall follow them that believe; In my name shall they cast out devils; they shall speak with new tongues;
[SUP]18 [/SUP]They shall take up serpents; and if they drink any deadly thing, it shall not hurt them; they shall lay hands on the sick, and they shall recover

This shows how they were real Christians. They did many things, but why did they get sent to hell? Well, it's because they did no good work to help their own. I can easily apply this to a very popular and well known verse in the Bible:


[h=3]Matthew 22:39[/h]King James Version (KJV)

[SUP]39 [/SUP]And the second is like unto it, Thou shalt love thy neighbour as thyself.



This is without me posting the things from Titus, James, or Timothy. Regardless, I will post the last post from Matthew that outlines the consequences to those who do not help their neighbours which is instructed of us in the Bible:


[h=3]Matthew 25:31-46[/h]King James Version (KJV)

[SUP]31 [/SUP]When the Son of man shall come in his glory, and all the holy angels with him, then shall he sit upon the throne of his glory:
[SUP]32 [/SUP]And before him shall be gathered all nations: and he shall separate them one from another, as a shepherd divideth his sheep from the goats:
[SUP]33 [/SUP]And he shall set the sheep on his right hand, but the goats on the left.
[SUP]34 [/SUP]Then shall the King say unto them on his right hand, Come, ye blessed of my Father, inherit the kingdom prepared for you from the foundation of the world:
[SUP]35 [/SUP]For I was an hungred, and ye gave me meat: I was thirsty, and ye gave me drink: I was a stranger, and ye took me in:
[SUP]36 [/SUP]Naked, and ye clothed me: I was sick, and ye visited me: I was in prison, and ye came unto me.
[SUP]37 [/SUP]Then shall the righteous answer him, saying, Lord, when saw we thee an hungred, and fed thee? or thirsty, and gave thee drink?
[SUP]38 [/SUP]When saw we thee a stranger, and took thee in? or naked, and clothed thee?
[SUP]39 [/SUP]Or when saw we thee sick, or in prison, and came unto thee?
[SUP]40 [/SUP]And the King shall answer and say unto them, Verily I say unto you, Inasmuch as ye have done it unto one of the least of these my brethren, ye have done it unto me.
[SUP]41 [/SUP]Then shall he say also unto them on the left hand, Depart from me, ye cursed, into everlasting fire, prepared for the devil and his angels:
[SUP]42 [/SUP]For I was an hungred, and ye gave me no meat: I was thirsty, and ye gave me no drink:
[SUP]43 [/SUP]I was a stranger, and ye took me not in: naked, and ye clothed me not: sick, and in prison, and ye visited me not.
[SUP]44 [/SUP]Then shall they also answer him, saying, Lord, when saw we thee an hungred, or athirst, or a stranger, or naked, or sick, or in prison, and did not minister unto thee?
[SUP]45 [/SUP]Then shall he answer them, saying, Verily I say unto you, Inasmuch as ye did it not to one of the least of these, ye did it not to me.
[SUP]46 [/SUP]And these shall go away into everlasting punishment: but the righteous into life eternal.

 

[DavidLOVESsnow]

This is part 2 of my reply to post #49.

So with what I showed above, the following is explained in the Bible:
1) that people who cast out demons and such are real Christians
2) the people who casted out demons and such did not enter Heaven
3) The quote[Matthew 7:21-23] stated that Jesus did not know them
4) In the quote [Matthew 25:31-46], it states how a stranger [someone you do not know] was either helped, or not helped by them
5) They got sent to hell for not helping the stranger [someone they did not know]

Now to the next paragraph of your post.

Ah, see I have found more info on this topic in the Bible. Read this:

[h=3]James 2:14-18[/h]King James Version (KJV)

[SUP]14 [/SUP]What doth it profit, my brethren, though a man say he hath faith, and have not works? can faith save him?
[SUP]15 [/SUP]If a brother or sister be naked, and destitute of daily food,
[SUP]16 [/SUP]And one of you say unto them, Depart in peace, be ye warmed and filled; notwithstanding ye give them not those things which are needful to the body; what doth it profit?
[SUP]17 [/SUP]Even so faith, if it hath not works, is dead, being alone.
[SUP]18 [/SUP]Yea, a man may say, Thou hast faith, and I have works: shew me thy faith without thy works, and I will shew thee my faith by my works.


So now you are saying, see it says that you need works... so why do they go to Heaven? Well, lets remember what it Says in Matthew 7:21-23 and Matthew 25:31-46. The situations arose where they could of done the will of their Father, but did not. Let me post some more Bible quotes for ya:

[h=3]Titus 1:16[/h]King James Version (KJV)

[SUP]16 [/SUP]They profess that they know God; but in works they deny him, being abominable, and disobedient, and unto every good work reprobate.


Titus 1:16 is showing how works whether good or bad define your faith, just as the Bible quotes above have shown. Therefore, if they define your faith, and Faith is needed to enter Heaven [refer to Ephesians 2:8-9] then works define where you go. Also, I will post another quote below but think its obvious. Wouldn't adultery be considered a bad work? Do adulterers go to Heaven if they dont repent? No.. do you understand now?

The reason the Thief and the others went to Heaven is not because they didn't do good works, its because they didn't do bad works and when they had the chance they did the good works. Did the theif ever see someone who was homeless and just not do anything? No. Or the people stricken on the bed? No because they couldn't. To further prove this, I'm going to quote two things from the Bible:

[h=3]Matthew 5:38-42[/h]King James Version (KJV)

[SUP]38 [/SUP]Ye have heard that it hath been said, An eye for an eye, and a tooth for a tooth:
[SUP]39 [/SUP]But I say unto you, That ye resist not evil: but whosoever shall smite thee on thy right cheek, turn to him the other also.
[SUP]40 [/SUP]And if any man will sue thee at the law, and take away thy coat, let him have thy cloak also.
[SUP]41 [/SUP]And whosoever shall compel thee to go a mile, go with him twain.
[SUP]42 [/SUP]Give to him that asketh thee, and from him that would borrow of thee turn not thou away.

 

[DavidLOVESsnow]

Part 3 to my reply of post #49 [it wouldn't let me post anymore so Im just giving another post. Besides, I guess it makes it easier to read?]

Here is the second Bible Quote:

[h=3]James 4:17[/h]King James Version (KJV)

[SUP]17 [/SUP]Therefore to him that knoweth to do good, and doeth it not, to him it is sin.



So with those quotes, we can deduct things such as:
1) People who are homosexuals but claim to love God are not going to Heaven. This is because they deny God in their works [homosexual acts].
2) That works are a testament of your faith. You can either be denying God through works or accepting God through works.


Now for the next paragraph:

You are right. So in a way you are agreeing with me. I think you misundestand though. I'm not saying 100 pounds of works gets you into Heaven. All Im saying is that works define your faith. Faith is what gets you into Heaven [under Grace - Ephesiands 2:8-9], therefore works define whether you go to Heaven or Hell. This OP is basically just denouncing Calvinistic beliefs.

Lets look at the full context of 1 Corinthians 3:15 when we look at 1 Corinthians 3:11-15
:

[h=3]1 Corinthians 3:11-15[/h]King James Version (KJV)

[SUP]11 [/SUP]For other foundation can no man lay than that is laid, which is Jesus Christ.
[SUP]12 [/SUP]Now if any man build upon this foundation gold, silver, precious stones, wood, hay, stubble;
[SUP]13 [/SUP]Every man's work shall be made manifest: for the day shall declare it, because it shall be revealed by fire; and the fire shall try every man's work of what sort it is.
[SUP]14 [/SUP]If any man's work abide which he hath built thereupon, he shall receive a reward.
[SUP]15 [/SUP]If any man's work shall be burned, he shall suffer loss: but he himself shall be saved; yet so as by fire.



It is not talking about good works at all. I can see why interpret that way, but it is just saying that Christ is the only foundation. Jesus himself talked about good works above :/.

To reiterate im not saying a specific amount of works is required to enter Heaven. Im just saying that works define you faith as it says in the Bible. Therefore, in correlation to Ephesians 2:8-9, works decide whether you go to Heaven or Hell.

 

[DavidLOVESsnow]

Food for thought. Faith is away accompanied with works, but works alone isn't from faith. Faith is a gift of the Spirit of God, and is also an attribute of the fruit of the spirit.
1 Corinthians 12:9 (KJV)
[SUP]9 [/SUP]To another faith by the same Spirit; to another the gifts of healing by the same Spirit;
Galatians 5:22-23 (KJV)
[SUP]22 [/SUP]But the fruit of the Spirit is love, joy, peace, longsuffering, gentleness, goodness, faith,
[SUP]23 [/SUP]Meekness, temperance: against such there is no law.

James 2:20-26 (KJV)
[SUP]20 [/SUP]But wilt thou know, O vain man, that faith without works is dead?
[SUP]21 [/SUP]Was not Abraham our father justified by works, when he had offered Isaac his son upon the altar?
[SUP]22 [/SUP]Seest thou how faith wrought with his works, and by works was faith made perfect?
[SUP]23 [/SUP]And the scripture was fulfilled which saith, Abraham believed God, and it was imputed unto him for righteousness: and he was called the Friend of God.
[SUP]24 [/SUP]Ye see then how that by works a man is justified, and not by faith only.
[SUP]25 [/SUP]Likewise also was not Rahab the harlot justified by works, when she had received the messengers, and had sent them out another way?
[SUP]26 [/SUP]For as the body without the spirit is dead, so faith without works is dead also.

This is reply to post #50

Yes I agree with you. Faith like I said before is belief in God + works you do. If you're a homosexual and you believe in God, you wont go to Heaven because you works or not that pertaining to God. Im just saying that works define whether you go to Heaven or Hell because of such instances.

 

[DavidLOVESsnow]

Reply to Post #27 DavidLOVESsnow:

"... not of yourselves: IT IS THE GIFT OF GOD, NOT of works, lest any man should boast." Ephesians 2:8-9

"For we are his workmanship, created in Christ Jesus for GOOD WORKS, which GOD PREPARED beforehand, that we should walk in them." Ephesians 2:10

It is God who has given us faith and it is God who has given us the actual grace to do his good works which he has prepared for us. They are evidence that we have received God's grace. Therefore we boast in nothing except Jesus Christ to him be the glory forever.

Let me explain it this way: When you were conceived and grew in your mother's womb what did you do to cause this to happen? Did you have any control over your birth into this world? In the same way That you were physically born into this world and did nothing to accomplish this, in your spiritual birth (born again, born from above) you did nothing to accomplish your spiritual birth either. God has done everything.

After we are spiritually born we have to live by the Spirit to have life, we must receive spiritual food and drink, we must allow the Spirit (Holy Spirit) to direct us and guide us to heaven, the faith and good works we do are by the Holy Spirit abiding in us. Our faith and good works do nothing to gain us heaven they are evidence that we are born from above, and are no longer a part of this world, but we are in Christ and a part of his kingdom.

Christ be with you always.

This is a reply to post # 51

I hope you read my whole OP. In the beginning I clearly explain how Ephesians 2:8-10 is saying that a certain amount of works say 100 pounds of works are not required to enter Heaven. If so, then you could boast saying you have 200 pounds or 10,000 pounds of works.

As for the second paragraph I will refer to Romans 8:29-30. It is because of us that God decides to reshape us. He knew what choices we would make. We do have free will to do what we choose, or else the Bible would not say "Choose ye who ye shall serve"[im paraphrasing but you know what I mean]. Also if we have no choice, that is the same as saying that God chose who should go to hell and who should go to Heaven. That makes no sense. However, if you read Romans 8:29-30 you'll understand what is really going on:

[h=3]Romans 8:29-30[/h]King James Version (KJV)

[SUP]29 [/SUP]For whom he did foreknow, he also did predestinate to be conformed to the image of his Son, that he might be the firstborn among many brethren.
[SUP]30 [/SUP]Moreover whom he did predestinate, them he also called: and whom he called, them he also justified: and whom he justified, them he also glorified.



What is that saying? Well it's saying he foreknow, he knew what decisions you were going to make. Therefore, based on those decisions, he will reshape you in the image of Jesus. It's not that we have no choice or say in the matter. If that wasn't true, then why would repenting even exist? Let alone any of the laws, or warnings on things you shouldn't do. Saying we have no choice or no input is unbiblical.

Like I said before, works define who you are. The scriptures I posted before prove that. I can repost them if you want. Like I said, you can believe in God, but can always fall even if you have the holy spirit in you [happens in NT and OT - Saul in OT for an example]. You can believe in God, and be a homosexual. but because of you being a homosexual and doing works against God, you will go to hell.

I would advise because im in a hurry to try and answer a ton of posts that you just refer to the Original Post. It explains everything there for ya. God bless you too brother, but seriously, works are a requirement. Its not like theres 100 pounds needed to get into Heaven, but works are a testament to you faith.

 

[DavidLOVESsnow]

It is by grace in good faith in jesus Christ but the truth is christ is holiness heis truth he is righteousness , and as we confessed the Lord and walked in repentance and in the baptism of the Lord we become dead to our own works and begin to live in the Works that are of God , this ist thw works of God at work that we are not doing the works but gave enough faith that jesus will do the work for us through faith..

Im replying to post # 53 because post #52 is just a statement in agreement with a previous post that im almost 90% sure I responded to already. So I digress:

I don't know if it's me being tired or the way you write English, but I cant exactly understand what you are saying, so I'll just reiterate my point:

We are given grace. It allows us to be saved by faith:


[h=3]Ephesians 2:8-9[/h]King James Version (KJV)

[SUP]8 [/SUP]For by grace are ye saved through faith; and that not of yourselves: it is the gift of God:
[SUP]9 [/SUP]Not of works, lest any man should boast.



It also says not of works in the manner it speaks to be not by a specific amount of works. So for example, 100 pounds of works dont get you into Heaven. However, works are required. I will post below the punishments for not doing good works, as well as the quotes saying good works are a testament to your faith:

James 2:14-17
King James Version (KJV)
[SUP]14 [/SUP]What doth it profit, my brethren, though a man say he hath faith, and have not works? can faith save him?
[SUP]15 [/SUP]If a brother or sister be naked, and destitute of daily food,
[SUP]16 [/SUP]And one of you say unto them, Depart in peace, be ye warmed and filled; notwithstanding ye give them not those things which are needful to the body; what doth it profit?
[SUP]17 [/SUP]Even so faith, if it hath not works, is dead, being alone.
James 2:18

King James Version (KJV)
[SUP]18 [/SUP]Yea, a man may say, Thou hast faith, and I have works: shew me thy faith without thy works, and I will shew thee my faith by my works.

James 2:26

King James Version (KJV)
[SUP]26 [/SUP]For as the body without the spirit is dead, so faith without works is dead also.

2 Timothy 3:17

King James Version (KJV)
[SUP]17 [/SUP]That the man of God may be perfect, thoroughly furnished unto all good works.


^-- says how works are a part of faith.


Titus 1:16
King James Version (KJV)
[SUP]16 [/SUP]They profess that they know God; but in works they deny him, being abominable, and disobedient, and unto every good work reprobate.

James 4:17

King James Version (KJV)
[SUP]17 [/SUP]Therefore to him that knoweth to do good, and doeth it not, to him it is sin.

^--- says how if you dont do good works when you know you should its a sin. It also shows how people who believe in God and dont do good works are bad.


Matthew 25:31-46

King James Version (KJV)
[SUP]31 [/SUP]When the Son of man shall come in his glory, and all the holy angels with him, then shall he sit upon the throne of his glory:
[SUP]32 [/SUP]And before him shall be gathered all nations: and he shall separate them one from another, as a shepherd divideth his sheep from the goats:
[SUP]33 [/SUP]And he shall set the sheep on his right hand, but the goats on the left.
[SUP]34 [/SUP]Then shall the King say unto them on his right hand, Come, ye blessed of my Father, inherit the kingdom prepared for you from the foundation of the world:
[SUP]35 [/SUP]For I was an hungred, and ye gave me meat: I was thirsty, and ye gave me drink: I was a stranger, and ye took me in:
[SUP]36 [/SUP]Naked, and ye clothed me: I was sick, and ye visited me: I was in prison, and ye came unto me.
[SUP]37 [/SUP]Then shall the righteous answer him, saying, Lord, when saw we thee an hungred, and fed thee? or thirsty, and gave thee drink?
[SUP]38 [/SUP]When saw we thee a stranger, and took thee in? or naked, and clothed thee?
[SUP]39 [/SUP]Or when saw we thee sick, or in prison, and came unto thee?
[SUP]40 [/SUP]And the King shall answer and say unto them, Verily I say unto you, Inasmuch as ye have done it unto one of the least of these my brethren, ye have done it unto me.
[SUP]41 [/SUP]Then shall he say also unto them on the left hand, Depart from me, ye cursed, into everlasting fire, prepared for the devil and his angels:
[SUP]42 [/SUP]For I was an hungred, and ye gave me no meat: I was thirsty, and ye gave me no drink:
[SUP]43 [/SUP]I was a stranger, and ye took me not in: naked, and ye clothed me not: sick, and in prison, and ye visited me not.
[SUP]44 [/SUP]Then shall they also answer him, saying, Lord, when saw we thee an hungred, or athirst, or a stranger, or naked, or sick, or in prison, and did not minister unto thee?
[SUP]45 [/SUP]Then shall he answer them, saying, Verily I say unto you, Inasmuch as ye did it not to one of the least of these, ye did it not to me.
[SUP]46 [/SUP]And these shall go away into everlasting punishment: but the righteous into life eternal.

Matthew 7:21-23

King James Version (KJV)
[SUP]21 [/SUP]Not every one that saith unto me, Lord, Lord, shall enter into the kingdom of heaven; but he that doeth the will of my Father which is in heaven.
[SUP]22 [/SUP]Many will say to me in that day, Lord, Lord, have we not prophesied in thy name? and in thy name have cast out devils? and in thy name done many wonderful works?
[SUP]23 [/SUP]And then will I profess unto them, I never knew you: depart from me, ye that work iniquity.

^-- consequences of not doing good works.



Mark 16:16-18

King James Version (KJV)
[SUP]16 [/SUP]He that believeth and is baptized shall be saved; but he that believeth not shall be damned.
[SUP]17 [/SUP]And these signs shall follow them that believe; In my name shall they cast out devils; they shall speak with new tongues;
[SUP]18 [/SUP]They shall take up serpents; and if they drink any deadly thing, it shall not hurt them; they shall lay hands on the sick, and they shall recover.

^-- proof that people in Matthew 7:21-23 were real Christians.


There. That should sum everything up for ya.

 

[DavidLOVESsnow]

Being saved by grace is a way of life, not something that happened yesterday, or last year. Henceforth being born anew, or again is the beginning of that new life that we call salvation.

First I am just saying Im not responding to post #54 because it is in agreement with me. All I did is like the post .

This is a quick response to post #55 because I think me and my friend Just-Me disagree on this.

First on the Grace and Saved stuff:

[h=3]Ephesians 2:8-9[/h]King James Version (KJV)

[SUP]8 [/SUP]For by grace are ye saved through faith; and that not of yourselves: it is the gift of God:
[SUP]9 [/SUP]Not of works, lest any man should boast.




Just saying, its all about Faith. For by grace we can be saved through our faith. Faith, as in the many quotes beforehand is in correlation to our works. Works show whether we are with God or going against God [homosexual atcs, Murders, etc.]. Therefore, Works decide whether you go to Heaven or Hell.

I think we are in agreement Just-Me but just incase I put this brief explanation here

 

[DavidLOVESsnow]

That's the best way I've ever seen works based salvation articulated, unfortunately for you, it's wrong.

PS: Maybe I should say, "Fortunately for you, its wrong"? Saved by grace through faith in Jesus Christ (no works necessary). You don't have to work at it, rest in His (Jesus') finished work.

This is post #56. I am just putting this here because im going through every post. Just-Me posted in #57 his reply which I agree with. Therefore, my next reply will be #57 onward.

On a side note, turns out me and Just-Me are in agreement afterall