Works Determine Whether you go to Heaven or Hell
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This is exactly what I think scripture is telling us to do. Mix together, and have work together all of scripture so there is Faith, Law, Works, etc. all working together. I truly try to mix grace with the law! following the way scripture tells me to mix it. Grace is grace, it is that only God forgives and saves even when we sin. Law is law, it is the holy word and direction God gives the people who have grace.
I think distortions of scripture happen when someone does not fit the pieces of God's word together, denying some of it, saying another part is the only important part, not listening to all of God's word.
I think distortions of scripture happen when someone does not fit the pieces of God's word together, denying some of it, saying another part is the only important part, not listening to all of God's word.
H
Hi just-me,
James 2 does say it better. But we each understand it differently from each other.
James 2:14-26 (KJV)
[SUP]14 [/SUP]What doth it profit, my brethren, though a man say he hath faith, and have not works? can faith save him?
[SUP]15 [/SUP]If a brother or sister be naked, and destitute of daily food,
[SUP]16 [/SUP]And one of you say unto them, Depart in peace, be ye warmed and filled; notwithstanding ye give them not those things which are needful to the body; what doth it profit?
[SUP]17 [/SUP]Even so faith, if it hath not works, is dead, being alone.
[SUP]18 [/SUP]Yea, a man may say, Thou hast faith, and I have works: shew me thy faith without thy works, and I will shew thee my faith by my works.
It seems to me that you are saying that our works that shows our faith is obedience to the law (10 commandments). Is that correct?
If so, what level of obedience do you believe is required?
James 2:10 shows that the law requires perfect obedience, James 2:10.
Whether it be perfect obedience or some lessor level of obedience, then this would contradict the gospel of grace.
The thief on the cross was saved without any obedience to the law. It's would be unjust of God to let those with deathbed salvation be saved by grace whilst any who live on as Christians have to meet some minimum standard of obedience to the law to be saved.
And consider John 6:28,29. When Jesus was asked what works we should do, he answered that we should believe on him, which is consistent with the salvation by grace the thief on the cross received.
James 2 does say it better. But we each understand it differently from each other.
James 2:14-26 (KJV)
[SUP]14 [/SUP]What doth it profit, my brethren, though a man say he hath faith, and have not works? can faith save him?
[SUP]15 [/SUP]If a brother or sister be naked, and destitute of daily food,
[SUP]16 [/SUP]And one of you say unto them, Depart in peace, be ye warmed and filled; notwithstanding ye give them not those things which are needful to the body; what doth it profit?
[SUP]17 [/SUP]Even so faith, if it hath not works, is dead, being alone.
[SUP]18 [/SUP]Yea, a man may say, Thou hast faith, and I have works: shew me thy faith without thy works, and I will shew thee my faith by my works.
It seems to me that you are saying that our works that shows our faith is obedience to the law (10 commandments). Is that correct?
If so, what level of obedience do you believe is required?
James 2:10 shows that the law requires perfect obedience, James 2:10.
Whether it be perfect obedience or some lessor level of obedience, then this would contradict the gospel of grace.
The thief on the cross was saved without any obedience to the law. It's would be unjust of God to let those with deathbed salvation be saved by grace whilst any who live on as Christians have to meet some minimum standard of obedience to the law to be saved.
And consider John 6:28,29. When Jesus was asked what works we should do, he answered that we should believe on him, which is consistent with the salvation by grace the thief on the cross received.
I think faith is even less of a work than Stephen Hawking twitching his cheeks. You could be completely paralyzed and drooling and still have what it takes to enter Paradise. As far as faith relates to works, I think the New Testament message was something like this: there's free treasure in a field and you just have to buy the field to get ownership of it. Technically the treasure's free, but the field isn't.
God could have asked us to stretch out our hands to accept the Gospel. But instead he went even more minimalist than that and asked us to simply have enough faith to stretch out our hands to accept the Gospel if that were indeed necessary. But theoretically it's not. In theory nothing but the faith in the Gospel is necessary. So in theory it's faith. In practicality and how the human mind actually works, that may be a bit different. I'd definitely encourage people to do good deeds, but when it comes to the Gospel I'd like to emphasize faith. Otherwise people may end up placing their faith in the wrong thing.
God could have asked us to stretch out our hands to accept the Gospel. But instead he went even more minimalist than that and asked us to simply have enough faith to stretch out our hands to accept the Gospel if that were indeed necessary. But theoretically it's not. In theory nothing but the faith in the Gospel is necessary. So in theory it's faith. In practicality and how the human mind actually works, that may be a bit different. I'd definitely encourage people to do good deeds, but when it comes to the Gospel I'd like to emphasize faith. Otherwise people may end up placing their faith in the wrong thing.
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It most certainly does not. It is only in the minds of those who deny that all scripture works together so they say if one scripture is so, then another is not so. That in not listening to God.
Surely you can know that grace is given by God when we repent and turn to him, it is not given by works.
Surely your mind can accept that when we are given grace we have repented and we work towards living in Christ, against sin, and that is works.
There are other truths of God, truth of the Holy Spirit and how that is part of our life, truth of baptism, many truths. To deny any of these truths is wrong.
One knowledge of a truth of God does not cancel out another knowledge of truth of God.
Surely you can know that grace is given by God when we repent and turn to him, it is not given by works.
Surely your mind can accept that when we are given grace we have repented and we work towards living in Christ, against sin, and that is works.
There are other truths of God, truth of the Holy Spirit and how that is part of our life, truth of baptism, many truths. To deny any of these truths is wrong.
One knowledge of a truth of God does not cancel out another knowledge of truth of God.
This should help in coming together.
Was this fruit something endorsed in the Epistles only, or was it God’s will from the beginning? Here’s your answer.
Exodus 20:6 (KJV)
[SUP]6 [/SUP]And shewing mercy unto thousands of them that love me, and keep my commandments.
Leviticus 19:18 (KJV)
[SUP]18 [/SUP]Thou shalt not avenge, nor bear any grudge against the children of thy people, but thou shalt love thy neighbour as thyself: I am the LORD.
Deuteronomy 5:10 (KJV)
[SUP]10 [/SUP]And shewing mercy unto thousands of them that love me and keep my commandments.
1 Kings 1:40 (KJV)
[SUP]40 [/SUP]And all the people came up after him, and the people piped with pipes, and rejoiced with great joy, so that the earth rent with the sound of them.
Isaiah 12:3 (KJV)
[SUP]3 [/SUP]Therefore with joy shall ye draw water out of the wells of salvation.
Exodus 18:23 (KJV)
[SUP]23 [/SUP]If thou shalt do this thing, and God command thee so, then thou shalt be able to endure, and all this people shall also go to their place in peace.
Leviticus 3:6 (KJV)
[SUP]6 [/SUP]And if his offering for a sacrifice of peace offering unto the LORD be of the flock; male or female, he shall offer it without blemish.
Exodus 34:6 (KJV)
[SUP]6 [/SUP]And the LORD passed by before him, and proclaimed, The LORD, The LORD God, merciful and gracious, longsuffering, and abundant in goodness and truth,
2 Samuel 22:36 (KJV)
[SUP]36 [/SUP]Thou hast also given me the shield of thy salvation: and thy gentleness hath made me great.
Faith is/was ordained as an Old Testament principle to be kept as a priority in the New Testament.
Habakkuk 2:4 (KJV)
[SUP]4 [/SUP]Behold, his soul which is lifted up is not upright in him: but the just shall live by his faith.
Romans 1:17 (KJV)
[SUP]17 [/SUP]For therein is the righteousness of God revealed from faith to faith: as it is written, The just shall live by faith.
Psalm 45:4 (KJV)
[SUP]4 [/SUP]And in thy majesty ride prosperously because of truth and meekness and righteousness; and thy right hand shall teach thee terrible things.
Temperance is self-control as in “not to covet,” or “being drunk” “gluttonous” and so on. It is exhortation of the fruit of the spirit that I endorsed in the only negative, for covet is an attribute of the carnal, and the opposite is the attribute of the Lord’s Holy Spirit.
Exodus 20:17 (KJV)
[SUP]17 [/SUP]Thou shalt not covet thy neighbour's house, thou shalt not covet thy neighbour's wife, nor his manservant, nor his maidservant, nor his ox, nor his ass, nor any thing that is thy neighbour's.
Deuteronomy 21:20-21 (KJV)
[SUP]20 [/SUP]And they shall say unto the elders of his city, This our son is stubborn and rebellious, he will not obey our voice; he is a glutton, and a drunkard.
[SUP]21 [/SUP]And all the men of his city shall stone him with stones, that he die: so shalt thou put evil away from among you; and all Israel shall hear, and fear.
We would never dream of stoning our own children for being drunk, or rebellious today, but we must still recognize this spiritual aspect. Any loving parent would desire to destroy those actions before they destroy their children. That’s what Jesus has done. God’s love wants us to be separated from those transgressions that separate us from Him. Parents that truly love their children will have the same desire.
Isaiah 32:15-17 (KJV)
[SUP]15 [/SUP]Until the spirit be poured upon us from on high, and the wilderness be a fruitful field, and the fruitful field be counted for a forest.
[SUP]16 [/SUP]Then judgment shall dwell in the wilderness, and righteousness remain in the fruitful field.
[SUP]17 [/SUP]And the work of righteousness shall be peace; and the effect of righteousness quietness and assurance for ever.
Was this fruit something endorsed in the Epistles only, or was it God’s will from the beginning? Here’s your answer.
Exodus 20:6 (KJV)
[SUP]6 [/SUP]And shewing mercy unto thousands of them that love me, and keep my commandments.
Leviticus 19:18 (KJV)
[SUP]18 [/SUP]Thou shalt not avenge, nor bear any grudge against the children of thy people, but thou shalt love thy neighbour as thyself: I am the LORD.
Deuteronomy 5:10 (KJV)
[SUP]10 [/SUP]And shewing mercy unto thousands of them that love me and keep my commandments.
1 Kings 1:40 (KJV)
[SUP]40 [/SUP]And all the people came up after him, and the people piped with pipes, and rejoiced with great joy, so that the earth rent with the sound of them.
Isaiah 12:3 (KJV)
[SUP]3 [/SUP]Therefore with joy shall ye draw water out of the wells of salvation.
Exodus 18:23 (KJV)
[SUP]23 [/SUP]If thou shalt do this thing, and God command thee so, then thou shalt be able to endure, and all this people shall also go to their place in peace.
Leviticus 3:6 (KJV)
[SUP]6 [/SUP]And if his offering for a sacrifice of peace offering unto the LORD be of the flock; male or female, he shall offer it without blemish.
Exodus 34:6 (KJV)
[SUP]6 [/SUP]And the LORD passed by before him, and proclaimed, The LORD, The LORD God, merciful and gracious, longsuffering, and abundant in goodness and truth,
2 Samuel 22:36 (KJV)
[SUP]36 [/SUP]Thou hast also given me the shield of thy salvation: and thy gentleness hath made me great.
Faith is/was ordained as an Old Testament principle to be kept as a priority in the New Testament.
Habakkuk 2:4 (KJV)
[SUP]4 [/SUP]Behold, his soul which is lifted up is not upright in him: but the just shall live by his faith.
Romans 1:17 (KJV)
[SUP]17 [/SUP]For therein is the righteousness of God revealed from faith to faith: as it is written, The just shall live by faith.
Psalm 45:4 (KJV)
[SUP]4 [/SUP]And in thy majesty ride prosperously because of truth and meekness and righteousness; and thy right hand shall teach thee terrible things.
Temperance is self-control as in “not to covet,” or “being drunk” “gluttonous” and so on. It is exhortation of the fruit of the spirit that I endorsed in the only negative, for covet is an attribute of the carnal, and the opposite is the attribute of the Lord’s Holy Spirit.
Exodus 20:17 (KJV)
[SUP]17 [/SUP]Thou shalt not covet thy neighbour's house, thou shalt not covet thy neighbour's wife, nor his manservant, nor his maidservant, nor his ox, nor his ass, nor any thing that is thy neighbour's.
Deuteronomy 21:20-21 (KJV)
[SUP]20 [/SUP]And they shall say unto the elders of his city, This our son is stubborn and rebellious, he will not obey our voice; he is a glutton, and a drunkard.
[SUP]21 [/SUP]And all the men of his city shall stone him with stones, that he die: so shalt thou put evil away from among you; and all Israel shall hear, and fear.
We would never dream of stoning our own children for being drunk, or rebellious today, but we must still recognize this spiritual aspect. Any loving parent would desire to destroy those actions before they destroy their children. That’s what Jesus has done. God’s love wants us to be separated from those transgressions that separate us from Him. Parents that truly love their children will have the same desire.
Isaiah 32:15-17 (KJV)
[SUP]15 [/SUP]Until the spirit be poured upon us from on high, and the wilderness be a fruitful field, and the fruitful field be counted for a forest.
[SUP]16 [/SUP]Then judgment shall dwell in the wilderness, and righteousness remain in the fruitful field.
[SUP]17 [/SUP]And the work of righteousness shall be peace; and the effect of righteousness quietness and assurance for ever.
No one is claiming that obedience to law is required for salvation, it is you claiming that others are saying that. No one is!
What is objectionable about your claims is the place of law after you are saved. After the Lord brings you to safety from the state of death and you are brought to the shores of life, you say we are to ignore and not follow law to keep us on the shores of safety. God is always ready to carry you back to life, but God gives you the way to live on those shores of life and you keep insisting you don't think it is right to listen to what God says about living in life.
What is objectionable about your claims is the place of law after you are saved. After the Lord brings you to safety from the state of death and you are brought to the shores of life, you say we are to ignore and not follow law to keep us on the shores of safety. God is always ready to carry you back to life, but God gives you the way to live on those shores of life and you keep insisting you don't think it is right to listen to what God says about living in life.
H
Hi RedTent,
My original question still applies. What level of obedience to the law is required?
You may not be saying that obedience to the law is required for salvation, but, the point so often made by some here is that if one does not obey the law then that is evidence that they are lost. Those who make both such claims are only contradicting themselves.
Regarding your allegation that I'm saying we should ignore the law and live however we want, I'll point out that such false claims I have encountered often. Those who make such claims often assume that without the law Christians would immediately turn to a selfish life of debauchery. Nothing can be further from the truth.
A Christian's behavior/lifestyle often does improve when we receive Christ.
However, the issue that is being made, which you have misunderstood for some reason, is that a Christian's righteousness/salvation is not determined by how good a lifestyle they live. Hence my question to those holding your position. Since you preach so much about the law then what level of obedience to the law do you claim is required as evidence that one is righteousness/saved?
My original question still applies. What level of obedience to the law is required?
You may not be saying that obedience to the law is required for salvation, but, the point so often made by some here is that if one does not obey the law then that is evidence that they are lost. Those who make both such claims are only contradicting themselves.
Regarding your allegation that I'm saying we should ignore the law and live however we want, I'll point out that such false claims I have encountered often. Those who make such claims often assume that without the law Christians would immediately turn to a selfish life of debauchery. Nothing can be further from the truth.
A Christian's behavior/lifestyle often does improve when we receive Christ.
However, the issue that is being made, which you have misunderstood for some reason, is that a Christian's righteousness/salvation is not determined by how good a lifestyle they live. Hence my question to those holding your position. Since you preach so much about the law then what level of obedience to the law do you claim is required as evidence that one is righteousness/saved?
"What level of obedience to the law do you claim is required?"
That's a tough question. The first thing that comes to my mind is that the word "level" in this question makes me search for a comparison to something, but what that something is in my mind is substance, and faith is the substance.
I think I have it so far. Obedience=submissiveness, and law=instructions, Required=necessary I think that's right also.
So in your opinion, could the question read like this and be the same as your original?
"What substance of submissiveness to the instructions do you claim is necessary?"
The one part of the law that Jesus quoted to Satan comes to my mind.
Deuteronomy 8:3 (KJV)
[SUP]3 [/SUP]And he humbled thee, and suffered thee to hunger, and fed thee with manna, which thou knewest not, neither did thy fathers know; that he might make thee know that man doth not live by bread only, but by every word that proceedeth out of the mouth of the LORD doth man live.
Luke 4:3-4 (KJV)
[SUP]3 [/SUP]And the devil said unto him, If thou be the Son of God, command this stone that it be made bread.
[SUP]4 [/SUP]And Jesus answered him, saying, It is written, That man shall not live by bread alone, but by every word of God.
Our adversary tempts with physical enticement to see things that are appealing to the flesh. Through Christ, we are given the Holy Spirit enabling us to see that all of God's words are relevant and true. That would be the law given to Mses also. The carnal mind sees the law as physical. The spiritual mind sees the law as it was originally intended.
That's a tough question. The first thing that comes to my mind is that the word "level" in this question makes me search for a comparison to something, but what that something is in my mind is substance, and faith is the substance.
I think I have it so far. Obedience=submissiveness, and law=instructions, Required=necessary I think that's right also.
So in your opinion, could the question read like this and be the same as your original?
"What substance of submissiveness to the instructions do you claim is necessary?"
The one part of the law that Jesus quoted to Satan comes to my mind.
Deuteronomy 8:3 (KJV)
[SUP]3 [/SUP]And he humbled thee, and suffered thee to hunger, and fed thee with manna, which thou knewest not, neither did thy fathers know; that he might make thee know that man doth not live by bread only, but by every word that proceedeth out of the mouth of the LORD doth man live.
Luke 4:3-4 (KJV)
[SUP]3 [/SUP]And the devil said unto him, If thou be the Son of God, command this stone that it be made bread.
[SUP]4 [/SUP]And Jesus answered him, saying, It is written, That man shall not live by bread alone, but by every word of God.
Our adversary tempts with physical enticement to see things that are appealing to the flesh. Through Christ, we are given the Holy Spirit enabling us to see that all of God's words are relevant and true. That would be the law given to Mses also. The carnal mind sees the law as physical. The spiritual mind sees the law as it was originally intended.
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So this is the end of the matter; all has been heard. Worship God and keep God's commandments because this is what everyone must do. Ecclesiastes 12:13 (CEB)
We are to have the mind of Christ; He was submissive in all things to our Heavenly Father; seems pretty self-explanatory to me.
For WHO HAS KNOWN THE MIND OF THE LORD, THAT HE WILL INSTRUCT HIM? But we have the mind of Christ.
1 Corinthians 2:16 (NAS)
Let your attitude toward one another be governed by your being in union with the Messiah Yeshua: Philippians 2:5 (CJB)
The questions arise when the unlearned make brash statements about God’s law without a good understanding of what they are saying. They think they know what the truth is but are deceived by our adversary whose main purpose is to deceive and lead well-intentioned people astray to believe false doctrines that will separate them from God. A thorough study of the covenants God has made with man is a good starting place to remedy that situation. If this paragraph makes you angry, look closely at yourself and determine why it makes you angry to consider the fact you just might be wrong on something from the Bible, examine yourself and see why. Another of the adversary’s very effective tools is self-pride and he uses it all the time against us – makes us think more highly of ourselves than we ought to. (Romans 12:3) And we all know God calls us to be humble.
We are to have the mind of Christ; He was submissive in all things to our Heavenly Father; seems pretty self-explanatory to me.
For WHO HAS KNOWN THE MIND OF THE LORD, THAT HE WILL INSTRUCT HIM? But we have the mind of Christ.
1 Corinthians 2:16 (NAS)
Let your attitude toward one another be governed by your being in union with the Messiah Yeshua: Philippians 2:5 (CJB)
The questions arise when the unlearned make brash statements about God’s law without a good understanding of what they are saying. They think they know what the truth is but are deceived by our adversary whose main purpose is to deceive and lead well-intentioned people astray to believe false doctrines that will separate them from God. A thorough study of the covenants God has made with man is a good starting place to remedy that situation. If this paragraph makes you angry, look closely at yourself and determine why it makes you angry to consider the fact you just might be wrong on something from the Bible, examine yourself and see why. Another of the adversary’s very effective tools is self-pride and he uses it all the time against us – makes us think more highly of ourselves than we ought to. (Romans 12:3) And we all know God calls us to be humble.
E
Um no. This is not the end, and never will be the end.
When you add the word "Must" You add law to grace, which is like mixing oil and water, they do not mix.
People have been trying to add mans righteousness to grace since the begining of time, and God will keep debunking it until the end, When all these people who tried to earn their way into God's grace will get a rude awakening.
lol. No your paragraph does not make me angry, It saddens me, it saddens me that you think you can be righteous. It saddens me that you think you have to earn grace, it saddens me, that you have taken the schoolmaster, and not seen it for what it really is, and think it is the thing which saves you.
More importantly. It saddens my savior. Who wants to free you from slavery, and make you his daughter
When you add the word "Must" You add law to grace, which is like mixing oil and water, they do not mix.
People have been trying to add mans righteousness to grace since the begining of time, and God will keep debunking it until the end, When all these people who tried to earn their way into God's grace will get a rude awakening.
lol. No your paragraph does not make me angry, It saddens me, it saddens me that you think you can be righteous. It saddens me that you think you have to earn grace, it saddens me, that you have taken the schoolmaster, and not seen it for what it really is, and think it is the thing which saves you.
More importantly. It saddens my savior. Who wants to free you from slavery, and make you his daughter
H
Hi just-me,
I understand from your answer that we are required to have perfect obedience to the law as evidence that we're righteous/saved. That would be consistent with scripture as well (James 2:10).
The flaw in your doctrine is that it contradicts the gospel.
the thief on the cross was saved without any deeds of the law.
scripture consistently tells us that we're not justified by works of the law.
it also tells us that we cannot even mix grace with works of the law, Rom 11:6.
The false doctrine you follow reminds me of the warning in 2Cor 11:3
But I fear, lest somehow, as the serpent deceived Eve by his craftiness, so your minds may be corrupted from the simplicity that is in Christ.
I understand from your answer that we are required to have perfect obedience to the law as evidence that we're righteous/saved. That would be consistent with scripture as well (James 2:10).
The flaw in your doctrine is that it contradicts the gospel.
the thief on the cross was saved without any deeds of the law.
scripture consistently tells us that we're not justified by works of the law.
it also tells us that we cannot even mix grace with works of the law, Rom 11:6.
The false doctrine you follow reminds me of the warning in 2Cor 11:3
But I fear, lest somehow, as the serpent deceived Eve by his craftiness, so your minds may be corrupted from the simplicity that is in Christ.
I'm surprised that you got that from my post, and corrected me of the flaw that contradicts the Gospel. I have some questions for you, as a professing believer in Christ, as I am also. Were not Paul and Jesus submissive to our Father in heaven with their thoughts i.e. mind?
Romans 7:25 (KJV)
[SUP]25 [/SUP]I thank God through Jesus Christ our Lord. So then with the mind I myself serve the law of God; but with the flesh the law of sin.
John 14:31 (KJV)
[SUP]31 [/SUP]But that the world may know that I love the Father; and as the Father gave me commandment, even so I do. Arise, let us go hence.
Is there a flaw in putting the words of Jesus and His Father's words together as the same, and being submissive to both in spirit, rather than seeing things God spoke in His law as only physical? I agree with your last sentence in bold print.
Romans 7:25 (KJV)
[SUP]25 [/SUP]I thank God through Jesus Christ our Lord. So then with the mind I myself serve the law of God; but with the flesh the law of sin.
John 14:31 (KJV)
[SUP]31 [/SUP]But that the world may know that I love the Father; and as the Father gave me commandment, even so I do. Arise, let us go hence.
Is there a flaw in putting the words of Jesus and His Father's words together as the same, and being submissive to both in spirit, rather than seeing things God spoke in His law as only physical? I agree with your last sentence in bold print.