Works vs. Works

know1 · May 24, 2015

God will not just give you the will and desire sir, but the strength, ability, and power to do so. It will be Him and His power moving through us by His Spirit.

Php 4:13 I can do all things through Christ which strengthens, enables, and empowers me.

Eze 36:27 And I will put my spirit within you, that will cause you to walk in my statutes, and to shall keep my judgments, and do them.

dcontroversal · May 24, 2015

know1 said:

The word heart is indicative of the seat of intellect where a conscience decision is made....not the fleshly organ that pumps blood......

IF you BELIEVE that God has raised him from the DEAD......Romans 10:9 Heart<--kardia The heart, figuratively the thoughts or feelings I.E. mind

Also...faith is a spiritual gift from God......

DiscipleDave · May 24, 2015

Here is our Work that one must do to be given eternal life.
1) believe on Jesus Christ (Faith)
and
2) LOVE ONE ANOTHER (Works)

Faith and Works go hand in hand, you can't have one without the other

1Jn 3:22 And whatsoever we ask, we receive of him, because we keep his commandments, and do those things that are pleasing in his sight.
1Jn 3:23 And this is His commandment, That we should 1) believe on the name of his Son Jesus Christ, and 2) LOVE ONE ANTOHER, as he gave us commandment.
1Jn 3:24 And he that keepeth his commandments dwelleth in him, and he in him. And hereby we know that he abideth in us, by the Spirit which he hath given us.

Those who do those two commandments, Have Jesus in them, and they in Him. But woe unto those who Fail to LOVE ONE ANOTHER, for these are they that will not be accepted into the Kingdom of Heaven, these are they that will weep and gnash their teeth because they are not taken up to be with Him. They FAILED to Love One Another.

The Kingdom of Heaven is in search of ONLY those who LOVE ONE ANOTHER, it will reject any who love SELF more than others. To be an inhabitant of the Kingdom of Heaven, you MUST love others MORE than love of self. No selfish person will enter into Heaven. But he/she who has given up their life, to NOT live to self, but to live unto God and Loving Others and NOT SELF, will be accepted into Heaven. But woe to those who have not given up their life to live for Jesus ONLY, but live life to please their own selves, there will be much weeping and gnashing of teeth on that Day. But here is Good News. Stop living to self NOW, live only for Jesus, do only those things that please Jesus and not your own self, and you too can be accepted into the olive tree, and partake of Eternal Life with Jesus Christ, but the cost is your life. The question then is, What are you willing to give up for Jesus Christ? He gave His life for you, should you not be willing to do the same for Him? You say you would? Yet you can't even get rid of the sin that so easily besets you. If you are still living in your sins to please your own self, how have you gave your life to Jesus? Those who continue to please self, are yet carnal, and are still in bondage to their own sins. Bondage i say, because they claim they can't cease. As if they are trapped in it, and can't cease from it, Bondage to it. Jesus is the Answer, seek His Strength and Power to overcome it, and you will find that you are no longer in Bondage to that particular sin anymore. But with this generation and the belief of all the false doctrines that are out there, why give up, or fight your sinning, you are still Heaven bound no matter what, right? Again much weeping and gnashing of teeth on that horrible Day. Horrible, i say because of all those who thought they were going to be taken, but were still within their sins. But for a few it will be a great DAY, because they are taken to be with Him, and they, through the Power and Strength of Jesus Christ, have forsaken their selfish sinning, and were made free from the Bondage that holds so many people to their sins.

A person who smokes cigarettes is in bondage to those cigarettes. Even as i was. But with the help of Jesus Christ i no longer smoke cigarettes, i am now free from it. Jesus has helped me to be free from smoking.

Fill in the blank for your particular sin.

A person who _________________ is in bondage to _________________. But with the help of Jesus Christ they can no longer _________________ , They now are free from it. Jesus has helped them to be free from _________________ .

There is no sin that you do that you can't cease from with the help of Jesus Christ. The question then is, where is your heart at, WHY have you not ceased from them?

If Jesus has helped me to become free, He can help you to become free as well. The problem is, this generation does not WANT to become free, they WANT to continue to live in bondage to their sin, they are not willing to give up their sin, nor are they willing to even try, they would much rather REPENT, and think they are in Good standing with God. But what they fail to understand, when a person Truly REPENTS of a particular sin, they cease to do that particular sin again, else how sorry are they if they continue to do the very thing they continually repent of? If you are Truly Sorry for it, you cease to do it again. my flesh is weak = is an excuse. Because Jesus is stronger than your flesh. My flesh is weak as well, but Jesus who lives in me, is stronger than any temptation that comes upon my weak flesh.

^i^ Responding to OP

know1 · May 24, 2015

dcontroversal said:

I never said the heart was physical.
Sir, I just gave scripture that clearly showed a distinct separation between the heart and mind, even though in many verses in the bible is talks about the thoughts and indents of the heart.
I sought God long and hard on this subject, because I wanted to know what the heart was. I too had a hard time separating the heart from the mind because they are so closely related. But aren't you and your mind so closely related, that we could say, you thought of something, when in fact it was of your mind? The same holds true with the heart.
The heart is not a thing, but a person, with a mind of his own.
Yes, I know it sounds ridiculous, but it is indeed a spiritual being, even as Christ is the heart of the Father, a living being, part of the Father, so is the heart of man a living being, a part of the man.
If I asked you where the mind of man would be, would you think it to be in the flesh or in the head.
Albeit, the heart of man is in the flesh of the man, not in the head.
Faith is a spirit from God, and yes, it is a gift, even as salvation is a gift.
And this spirit of faith abides in the heart, not in the mind of man. That is, if you separate the two, as it is written in the scriptures.

know1 · May 24, 2015

DiscipleDave said:

Let's take your deliverance from smoking.
Even though smoking will not send a person so hell, wanting to stop but not being able to stop smoking, can be like hell.
A person bound by a physical addition, who is not able to get free by their own will power, will need the help from the Holy Spirit.
In order for one to receive help/power from God, one does need to repent. But that is only the beginning. God moves only when faith is applied to the situation. When one directs their faith toward deliverance, then deliverance is given.

seed_time_harvest · May 24, 2015

know1 said:

Sir, I believe I understood you correctly the first time and I would like to explain further, if you don't mind.
Faith is specific and directed. It is like a gun that you point in a certain direction and fire.
Living holy has nothing to do with faith unless you are doing so by faith.
Does living a holy life that others can see have anything to do with your faith if it has to do with praying for the sick?
No, because it does not line up with your faith, which is for the sick to get healed. Living holy before God is general, not specific nor is it pointed in the direction of your faith, which is, praying for the sick to get well. Your living a holy life has nothing to do with the person you are praying for to get well. Therefore it does not apply, nor is it a work of faith for the sick.
In short, living a holy life has nothing to do with faith, unless you are directing your faith to living holy. For you can no more live a holy life before God than a nonbeliever can, apart from or without faith in God doing so through you. To try to do so apart from faith is to live by the law and not by the grace of God.

Gal 2:20 I am crucified with Christ: nevertheless I live; yet not I, but Christ liveth in me: and the life which I now live in the flesh I live by the faith of the Son of God, who loved me, and gave himself for me.
1Co 15:10 But by the grace of God I am what I am: and his grace which was bestowed upon me was not in vain; but I laboured more abundantly than they all: yet not I, but the grace of God which was with me.

Living a holy life must also be done by the faith of God, which is by your faith.
To do so without faith, but by your own strengths and abilities, is to be and walk in and according to the law. It will simply be a work of the law. Then are you fallen from grace.

Gal 5:4 Christ is become of no effect unto you, whosoever of you are justified by the law; ye are fallen from grace.

Without faith in the thing you are believing for, Christ's power has become of no effective to you.

I was trying to explain best I could and also bear with me because I am posting on a tablet and I can't edit the way I want to but I was talking about living holy as a way to explain works of the flesh that prove that what happened on the inside is not just words.

"Show me your faith without your works and I will show you my faith by my works"

I'm saying that works of the flesh will not be true.GOD has to do a work inside of that person then everyone that has this hope in them purifies themselves.

seed_time_harvest · May 24, 2015

know1 said:

I agree with this

know1 · May 24, 2015

seed_time_harvest said:

If then, I did not understand you correctly, please forgive me for the error on my part.
At the same time, do you understand what I have been saying? About faith being specific and directed at the thing you are believing for?
Here's another example.
Let's say you would like a better job which pays more, so you pray and ask God for it, then thank Him.
Then go out and feed the poor, visit the homeless, tithe off your current income, and so on. Doing all the things you know is right and that God approves of.
Was any of that a work of faith that would move the hand of God to get you the thing you asked for?
The answer is a resounding, no, because it had nothing to do with your prayer of faith.
The same scenario applies to that of salvation.
The new birth is done and over with after one confesses what they believe in their heart concerning the work of Christ on the cross.
What I believe you are saying is that the works following will show that the Spirit of God is indeed in the person, causing them to do good works, leading to sanctification.
Did I get that last part right?

mailmandan · May 24, 2015

know1 said:

I often hear Roman Catholics, Mormons and those who attend the church of Christ use this argument in their efforts to "support salvation by works." They interpret Ephesians 2:8,9 as if it says, "saved by grace through faith "infused or conjoined with good works" just not works of the law, as if there is no moral aspect to the law, which covers good works.

In James 2:15-16, the example of a "work" that James gives is: "If a brother or sister is naked and destitute of daily food, and one of you says to them, "Depart in peace, be warmed and filled," but you do not give them the things which are needed for the body, what does it profit?" To give a brother or sister these things needed for the body would certainly be a "good work" yet to neglect such a brother or sister and not give them the things needed for the body is to break the second great commandment "love your neighbor as yourself" (Matthew 22:39) as found written in the law of Moses (Leviticus 19:18).

In Matthew 22:37-40, we read: Jesus said to him, 'You shall love the Lord your God with all your heart, with all your soul, and with all your mind.' This is the first and great commandment. And the second is like it: 'You shall love your neighbor as yourself.' On these two commandments hang all the Law and the Prophets. Please tell me, which good works could a Christian do that are completely detached from these two great commandments which are found in the law of Moses? (Deuteronomy 6:5; Leviticus 19:18). Are there any genuine good works that Christians do which fall outside of loving God and our neighbor as ourself? Paul clearly said we are saved by grace through faith and not by works and it's not by works of righteousness which we have done but according to His mercy He saved us and He saved us and called us with a holy calling, not according to our works (Ephesians 2:8,9; Titus 3:5; 2 Timothy 1:9). How can you only limit this to specific works of the law?

know1 · May 24, 2015

mailmandan said:

I often hear Roman Catholics, Mormons and those who attend the church of Christ use this argument in their efforts to "support salvation by works." They interpret Ephesians 2:8,9 as if it says, "saved by grace through faith "infused or conjoined with good works" just not works of the law, as if there is no moral aspect to the law, which covers good works.

In James 2:15-16, the example of a "work" that James gives is: "If a brother or sister is naked and destitute of daily food, and one of you says to them, "Depart in peace, be warmed and filled," but you do not give them the things which are needed for the body, what does it profit?" To give a brother or sister these things needed for the body would certainly be a "good work" yet to neglect such a brother or sister and not give them the things needed for the body is to break the second great commandment "love your neighbor as yourself" (Matthew 22:39) as found written in the law of Moses (Leviticus 19:18).

In Matthew 22:37-40, we read: Jesus said to him, 'You shall love the Lord your God with all your heart, with all your soul, and with all your mind.' This is the first and great commandment. And the second is like it: 'You shall love your neighbor as yourself.' On these two commandments hang all the Law and the Prophets. Please tell me, which good works could a Christian do that are completely detached from these two great commandments which are found in the law of Moses? (Deuteronomy 6:5; Leviticus 19:18). Are there any genuine good works that Christians do which fall outside of loving God and our neighbor as ourself? Paul clearly said we are saved by grace through faith and not by works and it's not by works of righteousness which we have done but according to His mercy He saved us and He saved us and called us with a holy calling, not according to our works (Ephesians 2:8,9; Titus 3:5; 2 Timothy 1:9). How can you only limit this to specific works of the law?

Okay, we've already been over this very same post. Well, almost everything.
Would you like me to copy and past my reply as well?

know1 · May 24, 2015

mailmandan said:

I am none of the above, but you also are confusing the two kinds of works and lumping them together.
Works of faith are not the same as works of the law, of the flesh, or of good works.

tribesman · May 24, 2015

know1 said:

Yes, faith without works is dead. And works without saving faith (even if it is called "faith") is also dead. Works done in ignorance about God's righteousness are dead works, bearing "fruit unto death" before God.

There are many unregenerate people who have loads of works, sometimes even done in the Name of Christ. Yet they are nothing but dead works. Why? Because they have not believed the gospel of salvation conditioned solely on the person and work of Jesus Christ alone. They think, in ignorance, that their salvation is somehow conditioned on them and their works, their commitment or whatever they please to think. And not in Christ alone. They do not believe that it is the work of Christ alone which makes the difference between salvation and damnation, no, they believe that it is their work or something in them which makes that difference.

At root it is therefore more an issue about which gospel one believes in and proclaims than what may outwardly appear as a godly lifestyle. So while some people may show by their lawless way of life that they do not believe the gospel, no one can demonstrate by his law-keeping by itself that he believes the gospel, for there are many whose lives may appear to conform to the will of God who are yet unregenerate. Therefore, let no man be judged by his reputation, good works, sufferings, appearance, or any other standard but the gospel, in which God's righteousness is revealed.

Jason0047 · May 25, 2015

But if a person thinks they can sin and still be saved, then they are the ones who are not going to make it. For Paul makes it clear that we cannot continue in sin in Romans 6. Paul says be not deceived. The unrighteous will not inherit the Kingdom of God. So to say one can live generally holy and yet keep some kind of small sin in their life on occasion and be forgiven is just wrong. Men have to repent. It's a part of the gospel. God will not condone a person's evil. Yes, God understands people can struggle with sin in their desire to overcome it. But if that person thinks they will always be a slave to sin is just making excuses to sin. It's wrong and it is evil; And most who say Christ alone are essentially saying that.

mailmandan · May 25, 2015

know1 said:

Works that are produced out of faith are good works and we are not saved by good works but FOR good works (Ephesians 2:10). Do you believe that giving a brother or sister in need of food and clothing is a good work? (James 2:15-16). Do you believe that refusing to help a brother or sister who is in need of food and clothing is breaking the second great commandment "love your neighbor as yourself" (Matthew 22:39) which is written in the law of Moses? (Deuteronomy 6:5; Leviticus 19:8). So are works that are produced out of faith works of righteousness (Titus 3:5) or works of unrighteousness?

mailmandan · May 25, 2015

know1 said:

Go ahead and copy and paste your reply.

Budman · May 25, 2015

It is my understanding that works cannot save you, nor can they keep you saved. But good works are one of the results of salvation.

Every part of salvation belongs to the Lord. From being drawn to Christ by the Father, to our sealing by the Holy Spirit. That's why it is always referred to as a "gift" in Scripture. And that's why God gets all of the glory - and not us.

Jason0047 · May 25, 2015

mailmandan said:

Works that are produced out of faith are good works and we are not saved by good works but FOR good works (Ephesians 2:10). Do you believe that giving a brother or sister in need of food and clothing is a good work? (James 2:15-16). Do you believe that refusing to help a brother or sister who is in need of food and clothing is breaking the second great commandment "love your neighbor as yourself" (Matthew 22:39) which is written in the law of Moses? (Deuteronomy 6:5; Leviticus 19:8). So are works that are produced out of faith works of righteousness (Titus 3:5) or works of unrighteousness?

1 John 3:15 says if any man hates his brother he is a murderer and we know no murderer has eternal life in them.

Jason0047 · May 25, 2015

Yes, it is God that does the work in the believer, but the saints are not immune to sin because of the sacrifice of Jesus. They need to confess and forsake sin and not live in sin. If they decide to live in sin.... then they are proving that God is not living in them (Who is the source of their salvation).

Jason0047 · May 25, 2015

So yes, there are two different types of works. There are works of one's own doing to try and wrongfully save yourself. Then there is the work of God that moves within a believer that is a part of their Sanctification in being holy as He is holy. For without holiness, no man shall see the Lord.

Jason0047 · May 25, 2015

While there are works of the law (Galatians 3) and works of faith (TItus 3) mentioned in the Bible, Ephesians 2:8-10 is talking about works in general. We are not saved by works but we are created in Christ Jesus for good works. Meaning, that while we are not saved by doing works in and of themselves, works are the result of abiding with the Lord because He does the good work in you. No works means God is not present in a person's life. No God in a person's life means they are not saved.

Works vs. Works

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