Works vs. Works
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This is nothing but sophistry and splitting of hairs. Faith can not work apart from the Spirit. When true faith is around, the Spirit of God, not man, is it's author. Me thinks you are trying to advocate a subtle form of not only conditionalism (salvation conditioned on the sinner and not Christ) but possibly also salvation by works. That's why you have stuck on this strange dichotomy that does not exist. Start accepting total depravity and that might begin to correct this strange idea.
So what is know1 actually trying to say with his strange idea of "works of faith" vs works as a fruit of the Spirit, a fruit of having been born again? Since his OP is linking what he calls "works of faith" to justification (he says we are not justified unless we have "works of faith", then is not risk that he actually holds to that any man, unregenerate man inclusive, has the ability to work up a "faith" that causes God to justify him. This justification, or righteousness, would then have its origin in self, in man, and not in God. A man-centered gospel of self righteousness.
Okay, I have to make a public apology concerning the fruit of the Spirit and works of faith.
I just saw something that is clearly written is a verse that I quoted, proving faith to be a fruit of the Spirit.
How we can be so blind to the obvious is a wonder, but it's not the first time I missed the obvious and had to apologize for the error, and I'm sure it won't be the last either.
Gal 5:22 But the fruit of the Spirit is love, joy, peace, longsuffering, gentleness, goodness, faith,
To everyone that tried to correct me, I admit I was wrong, and I apologize for the error. Works of faith are fruit of the Spirit.
At the same time, I really think everyone is missing what a work of faith really is.
Everything that you do, such as giving to the poor, helping the elderly, going to church, and so on, are only good works that anyone can do without it being a fruit of the Spirit.
To me, those things are only, good works.
Yes, the Spirit of God could be moving you to do those good works and more, but can we move beyond the simple everyday things of life and go to bigger works that are written in the bible?
You know, the kind of things you say went out with the apostles. Like works of faith that produce signs, miracles, and wonders that are suppose to be following the believer? To me, these are works of faith that only God can do through them that believe.
We are told, not only to preach the gospel to every creature, but to cast of devils, heal the sick, raise the dead, and cleanse the leapers, and nothing by any means should harm us.
These too are fruits of the Spirit that I do not see much of in the church today. Some churches, yes, but to the majority, this is foreign.
I just saw something that is clearly written is a verse that I quoted, proving faith to be a fruit of the Spirit.
How we can be so blind to the obvious is a wonder, but it's not the first time I missed the obvious and had to apologize for the error, and I'm sure it won't be the last either.
Gal 5:22 But the fruit of the Spirit is love, joy, peace, longsuffering, gentleness, goodness, faith,
To everyone that tried to correct me, I admit I was wrong, and I apologize for the error. Works of faith are fruit of the Spirit.
At the same time, I really think everyone is missing what a work of faith really is.
Everything that you do, such as giving to the poor, helping the elderly, going to church, and so on, are only good works that anyone can do without it being a fruit of the Spirit.
To me, those things are only, good works.
Yes, the Spirit of God could be moving you to do those good works and more, but can we move beyond the simple everyday things of life and go to bigger works that are written in the bible?
You know, the kind of things you say went out with the apostles. Like works of faith that produce signs, miracles, and wonders that are suppose to be following the believer? To me, these are works of faith that only God can do through them that believe.
We are told, not only to preach the gospel to every creature, but to cast of devils, heal the sick, raise the dead, and cleanse the leapers, and nothing by any means should harm us.
These too are fruits of the Spirit that I do not see much of in the church today. Some churches, yes, but to the majority, this is foreign.
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Eze 36:27 And I will put my spirit within you, that will cause you to walk in my statutes, and to shall keep my judgments, and do them.
That causing is the Holy Ghost prompting a person to do that which is right, the conviction of the Holy Ghost when you have done something wrong. But the more a person ignores the prompting of the Spirit, the less the Spirit will prompt until that person has a reprobate mind, and has no conviction of their sins.
^i^ responding to post # 27
That causing is the Holy Ghost prompting a person to do that which is right, the conviction of the Holy Ghost when you have done something wrong. But the more a person ignores the prompting of the Spirit, the less the Spirit will prompt until that person has a reprobate mind, and has no conviction of their sins.
^i^ responding to post # 27
Getting SAVED and being SAVED are two different Things.
To get SAVED, it matters now what your works are or how filthy you are, nor what you have done in the past, you can come as you are, no matter how you are. That is Getting SAVED, Now once you ARE SAVED, Once you have Accepted Jesus as your Savior and Lord, then there are other things that are required to do once a person is SAVED, such as LOVE ONE ANOTHER. If a person is going to LOVE ONE ANOTHER, it will be in their Works. If a person has NO Works, where is the LOVE for ONE ANOTHER? Once you are SAVED, Faith and Works go hand in hand. Of Course for one to Get SAVED, NO WORKS are required, except to believe and repent. But once you are SAVED, you better have works, because if you don't have works, then where is Christ in you, which was full of Good Works. Where is your LOVE ONE for ANOTHER? If you have LOVE ONE for ANOTHER, you will most definitely have works.
^i^ Responding to post 51
To get SAVED, it matters now what your works are or how filthy you are, nor what you have done in the past, you can come as you are, no matter how you are. That is Getting SAVED, Now once you ARE SAVED, Once you have Accepted Jesus as your Savior and Lord, then there are other things that are required to do once a person is SAVED, such as LOVE ONE ANOTHER. If a person is going to LOVE ONE ANOTHER, it will be in their Works. If a person has NO Works, where is the LOVE for ONE ANOTHER? Once you are SAVED, Faith and Works go hand in hand. Of Course for one to Get SAVED, NO WORKS are required, except to believe and repent. But once you are SAVED, you better have works, because if you don't have works, then where is Christ in you, which was full of Good Works. Where is your LOVE ONE for ANOTHER? If you have LOVE ONE for ANOTHER, you will most definitely have works.
^i^ Responding to post 51
Can anyone tell me what kind of works the below list is?
What class or category would you put these acts in?
Heb 11:4 By faith Abel offered unto God a more excellent sacrifice than Cain, by which he obtained witness that he was righteous, God testifying of his gifts: and by it he being dead yet speaketh.
Heb 11:5 By faith Enoch was translated that he should not see death; and was not found, because God had translated him: for before his translation he had this testimony, that he pleased God.
Heb 11:6 But without faith it is impossible to please him: for he that cometh to God must believe that he is, and that he is a rewarder of them that diligently seek him.
Heb 11:7 By faith Noah, being warned of God of things not seen as yet, moved with fear, prepared an ark to the saving of his house; by the which he condemned the world, and became heir of the righteousness which is by faith.
Heb 11:8 By faith Abraham, when he was called to go out into a place which he should after receive for an inheritance, obeyed; and he went out, not knowing whither he went.
Heb 11:9 By faith he sojourned in the land of promise, as in a strange country, dwelling in tabernacles with Isaac and Jacob, the heirs with him of the same promise:
Heb 11:10 For he looked for a city which hath foundations, whose builder and maker is God.
Heb 11:11 Through faith also Sara herself received strength to conceive seed, and was delivered of a child when she was past age, because she judged him faithful who had promised.
Heb 11:12 Therefore sprang there even of one, and him as good as dead, so many as the stars of the sky in multitude, and as the sand which is by the sea shore innumerable.
Heb 11:13 These all died in faith, not having received the promises, but having seen them afar off, and were persuaded of them, and embraced them, and confessed that they were strangers and pilgrims on the earth.
Heb 11:14 For they that say such things declare plainly that they seek a country.
Heb 11:15 And truly, if they had been mindful of that country from whence they came out, they might have had opportunity to have returned.
Heb 11:16 But now they desire a better country, that is, an heavenly: wherefore God is not ashamed to be called their God: for he hath prepared for them a city.
Heb 11:17 By faith Abraham, when he was tried, offered up Isaac: and he that had received the promises offered up his only begotten son,
Heb 11:18 Of whom it was said, That in Isaac shall thy seed be called:
Heb 11:19 Accounting that God was able to raise him up, even from the dead; from whence also he received him in a figure.
Heb 11:20 By faith Isaac blessed Jacob and Esau concerning things to come.
Heb 11:21 By faith Jacob, when he was a dying, blessed both the sons of Joseph; and worshipped, leaning upon the top of his staff.
Heb 11:22 By faith Joseph, when he died, made mention of the departing of the children of Israel; and gave commandment concerning his bones.
Heb 11:23 By faith Moses, when he was born, was hid three months of his parents, because they saw he was a proper child; and they were not afraid of the king's commandment.
Heb 11:24 By faith Moses, when he was come to years, refused to be called the son of Pharaoh's daughter;
Heb 11:25 Choosing rather to suffer affliction with the people of God, than to enjoy the pleasures of sin for a season;
Heb 11:26 Esteeming the reproach of Christ greater riches than the treasures in Egypt: for he had respect unto the recompence of the reward.
Heb 11:27 By faith he forsook Egypt, not fearing the wrath of the king: for he endured, as seeing him who is invisible.
Heb 11:28 Through faith he kept the passover, and the sprinkling of blood, lest he that destroyed the firstborn should touch them.
Heb 11:29 By faith they passed through the Red sea as by dry land: which the Egyptians assaying to do were drowned.
Heb 11:30 By faith the walls of Jericho fell down, after they were compassed about seven days.
Heb 11:31 By faith the harlot Rahab perished not with them that believed not, when she had received the spies with peace.
Heb 11:32 And what shall I more say? for the time would fail me to tell of Gedeon, and of Barak, and of Samson, and of Jephthae; of David also, and Samuel, and of the prophets:
Heb 11:33 Who through faith subdued kingdoms, wrought righteousness, obtained promises, stopped the mouths of lions,
Heb 11:34 Quenched the violence of fire, escaped the edge of the sword, out of weakness were made strong, waxed valiant in fight, turned to flight the armies of the aliens.
Heb 11:35 Women received their dead raised to life again: and others were tortured, not accepting deliverance; that they might obtain a better resurrection:
Heb 11:36 And others had trial of cruel mockings and scourgings, yea, moreover of bonds and imprisonment:
Heb 11:37 They were stoned, they were sawn asunder, were tempted, were slain with the sword: they wandered about in sheepskins and goatskins; being destitute, afflicted, tormented;
Heb 11:38 (Of whom the world was not worthy
they wandered in deserts, and in mountains, and in dens and caves of the earth.
Heb 11:39 And these all, having obtained a good report through faith, received not the promise:
Heb 11:40 God having provided some better thing for us, that they without us should not be made perfect.
What class or category would you put these acts in?
Heb 11:4 By faith Abel offered unto God a more excellent sacrifice than Cain, by which he obtained witness that he was righteous, God testifying of his gifts: and by it he being dead yet speaketh.
Heb 11:5 By faith Enoch was translated that he should not see death; and was not found, because God had translated him: for before his translation he had this testimony, that he pleased God.
Heb 11:6 But without faith it is impossible to please him: for he that cometh to God must believe that he is, and that he is a rewarder of them that diligently seek him.
Heb 11:7 By faith Noah, being warned of God of things not seen as yet, moved with fear, prepared an ark to the saving of his house; by the which he condemned the world, and became heir of the righteousness which is by faith.
Heb 11:8 By faith Abraham, when he was called to go out into a place which he should after receive for an inheritance, obeyed; and he went out, not knowing whither he went.
Heb 11:9 By faith he sojourned in the land of promise, as in a strange country, dwelling in tabernacles with Isaac and Jacob, the heirs with him of the same promise:
Heb 11:10 For he looked for a city which hath foundations, whose builder and maker is God.
Heb 11:11 Through faith also Sara herself received strength to conceive seed, and was delivered of a child when she was past age, because she judged him faithful who had promised.
Heb 11:12 Therefore sprang there even of one, and him as good as dead, so many as the stars of the sky in multitude, and as the sand which is by the sea shore innumerable.
Heb 11:13 These all died in faith, not having received the promises, but having seen them afar off, and were persuaded of them, and embraced them, and confessed that they were strangers and pilgrims on the earth.
Heb 11:14 For they that say such things declare plainly that they seek a country.
Heb 11:15 And truly, if they had been mindful of that country from whence they came out, they might have had opportunity to have returned.
Heb 11:16 But now they desire a better country, that is, an heavenly: wherefore God is not ashamed to be called their God: for he hath prepared for them a city.
Heb 11:17 By faith Abraham, when he was tried, offered up Isaac: and he that had received the promises offered up his only begotten son,
Heb 11:18 Of whom it was said, That in Isaac shall thy seed be called:
Heb 11:19 Accounting that God was able to raise him up, even from the dead; from whence also he received him in a figure.
Heb 11:20 By faith Isaac blessed Jacob and Esau concerning things to come.
Heb 11:21 By faith Jacob, when he was a dying, blessed both the sons of Joseph; and worshipped, leaning upon the top of his staff.
Heb 11:22 By faith Joseph, when he died, made mention of the departing of the children of Israel; and gave commandment concerning his bones.
Heb 11:23 By faith Moses, when he was born, was hid three months of his parents, because they saw he was a proper child; and they were not afraid of the king's commandment.
Heb 11:24 By faith Moses, when he was come to years, refused to be called the son of Pharaoh's daughter;
Heb 11:25 Choosing rather to suffer affliction with the people of God, than to enjoy the pleasures of sin for a season;
Heb 11:26 Esteeming the reproach of Christ greater riches than the treasures in Egypt: for he had respect unto the recompence of the reward.
Heb 11:27 By faith he forsook Egypt, not fearing the wrath of the king: for he endured, as seeing him who is invisible.
Heb 11:28 Through faith he kept the passover, and the sprinkling of blood, lest he that destroyed the firstborn should touch them.
Heb 11:29 By faith they passed through the Red sea as by dry land: which the Egyptians assaying to do were drowned.
Heb 11:30 By faith the walls of Jericho fell down, after they were compassed about seven days.
Heb 11:31 By faith the harlot Rahab perished not with them that believed not, when she had received the spies with peace.
Heb 11:32 And what shall I more say? for the time would fail me to tell of Gedeon, and of Barak, and of Samson, and of Jephthae; of David also, and Samuel, and of the prophets:
Heb 11:33 Who through faith subdued kingdoms, wrought righteousness, obtained promises, stopped the mouths of lions,
Heb 11:34 Quenched the violence of fire, escaped the edge of the sword, out of weakness were made strong, waxed valiant in fight, turned to flight the armies of the aliens.
Heb 11:35 Women received their dead raised to life again: and others were tortured, not accepting deliverance; that they might obtain a better resurrection:
Heb 11:36 And others had trial of cruel mockings and scourgings, yea, moreover of bonds and imprisonment:
Heb 11:37 They were stoned, they were sawn asunder, were tempted, were slain with the sword: they wandered about in sheepskins and goatskins; being destitute, afflicted, tormented;
Heb 11:38 (Of whom the world was not worthy
they wandered in deserts, and in mountains, and in dens and caves of the earth. Heb 11:39 And these all, having obtained a good report through faith, received not the promise:
Heb 11:40 God having provided some better thing for us, that they without us should not be made perfect.
E
The problem is people do not understand what Getting saved means.
It means your saved from eternal wrath through Christ. Because you HAD FAITH in his work.
If you have faith, as James said, THERE WILL BE WORK. works are not REQUIRED after getting saved (if they are. the person is not saved yet, thus he never GOT SAVED) Works are an automatic response to gettingn saved (BEING SHOWN THE TRUE LOVE OF GOD.
As scripture says, We love BECAUSE GOD LOVES US FIRST.
the people who do not work prove they have not faith, and the reson they do not work is simple. They have not experienced Gods love yet.
i agree with what you are saying, except for one comment you made
Jesus Commands us by giving us Christians a New Commandment, which is to LOVE ONE ANOTHER. This commandment is given to all those who have been saved, who have accepted Him as their Savior and Lord. They MUST DO as Jesus commands them to do, they MUST LOVE ONE ANOTHER, in LOVING ONE ANOTHER, you feed the hungry, clothe the naked, give to the poor, help those in need. These are works that MUST be done, because we are commanded to do so. We are to love our enemies, This is not easy to do, and requires much work on our part to do so. True Jesus is in us to help us to LOVE ONE ANOTHER as we should, But He does not DO IT for us, we must choose to LOVE ONE ANOTHER, it is an action that we choose to do, it is NOT automatic when a person gets SAVED, or automatic when a person accepts Jesus into their hearts to live within them. So we are REQUIRED to do Good Works once we are SAVED, that is why it is plainly written:
Tit_3:8 This is a faithful saying, and these things I will that thou affirm constantly, that they which have believed in God might be careful to maintain good works. These things are good and profitable unto men.
Tit_3:14 And let ours also learn to maintain good works for necessary uses, that they be not unfruitful.
In Saying to be careful to maintain good works, is a conscience decision to do so, an effort that is to be chosen to do. If Good Works were automatically done when a person accepts Jesus into their life, Once Saved, then there would be no reason for it to be written to be sure to maintain good works. To maintain something means it is not automatic. If i am going to maintain my vehicle, then that means there are things that i am required to do, in order to maintain the vehicle, such as change the oil, tune up, fluids, tires and the such. If a person is going to maintain good works, the there are some things they will be required to do, help the needy, feed the hungry, give to the poor, LOVE ONE ANOTHER. These things are not automatic.
^i^ Responding to Post #71
Jesus Commands us by giving us Christians a New Commandment, which is to LOVE ONE ANOTHER. This commandment is given to all those who have been saved, who have accepted Him as their Savior and Lord. They MUST DO as Jesus commands them to do, they MUST LOVE ONE ANOTHER, in LOVING ONE ANOTHER, you feed the hungry, clothe the naked, give to the poor, help those in need. These are works that MUST be done, because we are commanded to do so. We are to love our enemies, This is not easy to do, and requires much work on our part to do so. True Jesus is in us to help us to LOVE ONE ANOTHER as we should, But He does not DO IT for us, we must choose to LOVE ONE ANOTHER, it is an action that we choose to do, it is NOT automatic when a person gets SAVED, or automatic when a person accepts Jesus into their hearts to live within them. So we are REQUIRED to do Good Works once we are SAVED, that is why it is plainly written:
Tit_3:8 This is a faithful saying, and these things I will that thou affirm constantly, that they which have believed in God might be careful to maintain good works. These things are good and profitable unto men.
Tit_3:14 And let ours also learn to maintain good works for necessary uses, that they be not unfruitful.
In Saying to be careful to maintain good works, is a conscience decision to do so, an effort that is to be chosen to do. If Good Works were automatically done when a person accepts Jesus into their life, Once Saved, then there would be no reason for it to be written to be sure to maintain good works. To maintain something means it is not automatic. If i am going to maintain my vehicle, then that means there are things that i am required to do, in order to maintain the vehicle, such as change the oil, tune up, fluids, tires and the such. If a person is going to maintain good works, the there are some things they will be required to do, help the needy, feed the hungry, give to the poor, LOVE ONE ANOTHER. These things are not automatic.
^i^ Responding to Post #71
There is "works vs. works" for all works are not the same...one work can save while another work does not save:
Rom 10:3 "For they being ignorant of God's righteousness, and going about to establish their own righteousness, have not submitted themselves unto the righteousness of God."
The Jews were doing their own works of righteousness, a work that would not save them. They failed to do the work of submitting unto the righteousness of God, a work that would save them.
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Rom 4:4 "Now to him that worketh is the reward not reckoned of grace, but of debt. 5 But to him that worketh not, but believeth on him that justifieth the ungodly, his faith is counted for righteousness."
In the context of Rom 4:1-5 Paul uses Abraham as an example of one who "worketh not", yet Abraham DID DO WORKS per Heb 11:8,17; Gen 26:5; and was justified by those works James 2:21-24.
So how could Abraham be one who both "worketh not" yet did do works?
The bible is not a book of contradictions therefore Paul was obviously writing about two different types of works.....one work that does not save and one work that does save.
When Paul says 'worketh not" Abraham did NOT do the work in trying to flawlessly keeping the OT law whereby trying to make his reward of debt and not of grace per Rom 4:4....for Abraham sinned.
But Abraham had obedient works, though he was not flawlessly sinless he had a working obedient faith (Heb 11:8,17) by which he was justified (James 2:21-24).
Again, two different types of works: 1) the work to attempt to flawlessly keep the law that does not save and the 2) work of a faithful obedience that does save/justify.
Rom 10:3 "For they being ignorant of God's righteousness, and going about to establish their own righteousness, have not submitted themselves unto the righteousness of God."
The Jews were doing their own works of righteousness, a work that would not save them. They failed to do the work of submitting unto the righteousness of God, a work that would save them.
-------------------
Rom 4:4 "Now to him that worketh is the reward not reckoned of grace, but of debt. 5 But to him that worketh not, but believeth on him that justifieth the ungodly, his faith is counted for righteousness."
In the context of Rom 4:1-5 Paul uses Abraham as an example of one who "worketh not", yet Abraham DID DO WORKS per Heb 11:8,17; Gen 26:5; and was justified by those works James 2:21-24.
So how could Abraham be one who both "worketh not" yet did do works?
The bible is not a book of contradictions therefore Paul was obviously writing about two different types of works.....one work that does not save and one work that does save.
When Paul says 'worketh not" Abraham did NOT do the work in trying to flawlessly keeping the OT law whereby trying to make his reward of debt and not of grace per Rom 4:4....for Abraham sinned.
But Abraham had obedient works, though he was not flawlessly sinless he had a working obedient faith (Heb 11:8,17) by which he was justified (James 2:21-24).
Again, two different types of works: 1) the work to attempt to flawlessly keep the law that does not save and the 2) work of a faithful obedience that does save/justify.
From what I have read, you have come the closes to understanding the difference between works of the law and works of faith. And I thought you explained it well too.
However, I have a small disagreement with your works of faith. If you are talking about Abraham's faith in obeying the command of God when he offered up Isaac, it was because he saw Isaac raised from the dead in a figure. He knew if he were to kill his son, God would raise his son from the dead, because he told his servants that he and the boy will return.
But what about the times when you want something? In order for God to answer your prayer, you will have to use your faith. There are no two ways around this. So will faith alone, without works, get your prayer answered? I think not.
What did Peter do to the man at the gate Beautiful? If Peter didn't have faith for that man's healing, he would have just pulled the man on his face when he grabbed the man's hand to help him up.
So what was Peter's work of faith?
It was two things.
First, he spoke boldly and out loud, the word of faith. He didn't say, 'if it be God's will, be healed'. If he did, there wouldn't have been any faith in it.
Speaking, is a work of faith.
The second work of faith Peter did was to grab the man's hand and pull him to his feet. That action or work he did, lined up with his faith and words of faith. His actions agreed with what he believed in his heart that God would do. He knew in his heart that God would heal that man, and so pulled him to his feet knowing that his feet and ankle would receive strength WHEN he started to pull the man to his feet, and not before.
What if Peter said, "wait a minute, let's see if God healed you first, and if we can see it and you feel that you've been healed, then I'll help you up carefully".
Would that have been a work of faith? Again, I think not.
If you never heard anything from God, and you want someone to be healed, there would be no obedience involved in getting that person healed.
Obedience is not the work of faith, it's the action one takes, that agrees with what they believe in there heart.
You can have faith in medication, and act on that.
Your actions will line up with what you truly believe in your heart.
The action you take, whether it be speaking God's word and/or physically doing something that is specific to your faith, would be the work of faith. Such as what Peter did to the lame man at the gate.
Without faith though, the action would be fruitless. There would be no power of God to back up the action. It is the Spirit of God that gives the word of God life and power. And it is the word of God that does the work, not you.
Again, like you said, the work of faith has nothing to do with the works of the law that Paul addressed in Galatians. They are two completely different kinds of works.
Thanks for your post, it was good.
However, I have a small disagreement with your works of faith. If you are talking about Abraham's faith in obeying the command of God when he offered up Isaac, it was because he saw Isaac raised from the dead in a figure. He knew if he were to kill his son, God would raise his son from the dead, because he told his servants that he and the boy will return.
But what about the times when you want something? In order for God to answer your prayer, you will have to use your faith. There are no two ways around this. So will faith alone, without works, get your prayer answered? I think not.
What did Peter do to the man at the gate Beautiful? If Peter didn't have faith for that man's healing, he would have just pulled the man on his face when he grabbed the man's hand to help him up.
So what was Peter's work of faith?
It was two things.
First, he spoke boldly and out loud, the word of faith. He didn't say, 'if it be God's will, be healed'. If he did, there wouldn't have been any faith in it.
Speaking, is a work of faith.
The second work of faith Peter did was to grab the man's hand and pull him to his feet. That action or work he did, lined up with his faith and words of faith. His actions agreed with what he believed in his heart that God would do. He knew in his heart that God would heal that man, and so pulled him to his feet knowing that his feet and ankle would receive strength WHEN he started to pull the man to his feet, and not before.
What if Peter said, "wait a minute, let's see if God healed you first, and if we can see it and you feel that you've been healed, then I'll help you up carefully".
Would that have been a work of faith? Again, I think not.
If you never heard anything from God, and you want someone to be healed, there would be no obedience involved in getting that person healed.
Obedience is not the work of faith, it's the action one takes, that agrees with what they believe in there heart.
You can have faith in medication, and act on that.
Your actions will line up with what you truly believe in your heart.
The action you take, whether it be speaking God's word and/or physically doing something that is specific to your faith, would be the work of faith. Such as what Peter did to the lame man at the gate.
Without faith though, the action would be fruitless. There would be no power of God to back up the action. It is the Spirit of God that gives the word of God life and power. And it is the word of God that does the work, not you.
Again, like you said, the work of faith has nothing to do with the works of the law that Paul addressed in Galatians. They are two completely different kinds of works.
Thanks for your post, it was good.
Hi.
The point of my post was to refute the false teaching of faith only and to prove that all works are not alike, as some falsely claim, but there are different types of works.....one work can save while another work cannot save.
The example with Abraham, how can he be one who "worketh not" when in fact he did do works? This is a contradiction created by faith only advocates and by those who claim all works are alike. Obviously Paul is talking about two different types of works - a work that Abraham did not do ("worketh not" > flawless law keeping) and a work that Abraham did do ("believeth" > obedient faith).
The point of my post was to refute the false teaching of faith only and to prove that all works are not alike, as some falsely claim, but there are different types of works.....one work can save while another work cannot save.
The example with Abraham, how can he be one who "worketh not" when in fact he did do works? This is a contradiction created by faith only advocates and by those who claim all works are alike. Obviously Paul is talking about two different types of works - a work that Abraham did not do ("worketh not" > flawless law keeping) and a work that Abraham did do ("believeth" > obedient faith).
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Actually your wrong. Because if this is required to GET SAVED, then we have never been saved until we do them, and then only after we do them as often as God demands (which would be 24/7 7 days a week 365 days a year, a problem with people no matter how often they say we must work will never be able to overcome) which no one can do. thus no one would ever be saved, not to mention. the rescue of the penalty of sin did not happen.
It is one thing to say God saves us, then wants us to do things. and of course those people he saved will do them, and another to say God saes us, then places demands on us, which must follow or our salvation would be lost (which again means we were never saved to begin with.)
For the umpteenth time, genuine believers do not teach that we are saved by what James refers to as "faith only" - says/claims to have faith but has no works - dead faith (James 2:14-17). This is not genuine faith but an empty profession of faith. Genuine believers SHOW their faith by their works (James 2:18) but we are still NOT SAVED BY WORKS (Ephesians 2:8,9).
Show me the words "saved by works" in the Bible. To the contrary, Paul clearly said - saved by grace through faith, not works (Ephesians 2:8,9); not by works of righteousness which we have done, but according to His mercy He saved us.. (Titus 3:5); He saved us and called us with a holy calling, not according to our works. How clear does Paul have to make this before you will understand and accept the truth? *Christ saves us by grace through faith based on the merits of His finished work of redemption alone and not based on the merits of our works. Quit boasting and start believing.
Abraham did not do works to merit his salvation. No contradiction at all with Romans 4:5. "Not by works" is not merely connected with flawless law keeping. When you say "obedient faith" you make no distinction between faith and works that follow faith. Roman Catholics make the same error. They call it saved by faith "infused" with works.
In James 2:21, notice closely that James does not say that Abraham's work of offering up Isaac resulted in God's accounting Abraham as righteous. No! The accounting of Abraham's faith as righteousness was made in Genesis 15:6, many years before his work of offering up Isaac recorded in Genesis 22.
The work of Abraham did not have some kind of intrinsic merit to save his soul, but it proved or manifested the genuineness of his faith. This is the sense in which Abraham was justified by works, "shown to be righteous" not accounted as righteous (Romans 4:2-3). When Abraham performed the good work in Genesis 22; he fulfilled the expectations created by the pronouncement of his faith in Genesis 15:6.
Romans 4:2 - For if Abraham was justified by works, he has something to boast about, but not before God. 3 For what does the Scripture say? "Abraham believed God, and it (faith, not works) was accounted to him for righteousness.
Show me the words "saved by works" in the Bible. To the contrary, Paul clearly said - saved by grace through faith, not works (Ephesians 2:8,9); not by works of righteousness which we have done, but according to His mercy He saved us.. (Titus 3:5); He saved us and called us with a holy calling, not according to our works. How clear does Paul have to make this before you will understand and accept the truth? *Christ saves us by grace through faith based on the merits of His finished work of redemption alone and not based on the merits of our works. Quit boasting and start believing.
Abraham did not do works to merit his salvation. No contradiction at all with Romans 4:5. "Not by works" is not merely connected with flawless law keeping. When you say "obedient faith" you make no distinction between faith and works that follow faith. Roman Catholics make the same error. They call it saved by faith "infused" with works.
In James 2:21, notice closely that James does not say that Abraham's work of offering up Isaac resulted in God's accounting Abraham as righteous. No! The accounting of Abraham's faith as righteousness was made in Genesis 15:6, many years before his work of offering up Isaac recorded in Genesis 22.
The work of Abraham did not have some kind of intrinsic merit to save his soul, but it proved or manifested the genuineness of his faith. This is the sense in which Abraham was justified by works, "shown to be righteous" not accounted as righteous (Romans 4:2-3). When Abraham performed the good work in Genesis 22; he fulfilled the expectations created by the pronouncement of his faith in Genesis 15:6.
Romans 4:2 - For if Abraham was justified by works, he has something to boast about, but not before God. 3 For what does the Scripture say? "Abraham believed God, and it (faith, not works) was accounted to him for righteousness.
Abraham did not do works (flawless law keeping) to merit salvation but he did do works of obedience.
So how can he be one that "worketh not" when he most certainly DID do works?
He "worketh not" at doing works of merit to earn salvation but did do obedient works by which he was justified.
So all works are not the same where one work (work of merit) that Abraham did not do and did not save him and another work obedient works in doing God;s will DID save.
Rom 4:2 "For if Abraham was justified by works,"
Abraham WAS justified by works James 2:21-24. So the works Paul is talking about in Rom 4;2 is not obedient works that Abraham DID do but Rom 4:2 is about works of merit that Abraham did NOT do. Proof all works are not the same while some works justify while others do not.
So how can he be one that "worketh not" when he most certainly DID do works?
He "worketh not" at doing works of merit to earn salvation but did do obedient works by which he was justified.
So all works are not the same where one work (work of merit) that Abraham did not do and did not save him and another work obedient works in doing God;s will DID save.
Rom 4:2 "For if Abraham was justified by works,"
Abraham WAS justified by works James 2:21-24. So the works Paul is talking about in Rom 4;2 is not obedient works that Abraham DID do but Rom 4:2 is about works of merit that Abraham did NOT do. Proof all works are not the same while some works justify while others do not.