YHVH + Jesus + Holy Spirit

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Do you believe that Jesus is God?

  • Yes

    Votes: 25 86.2%

  • No

    Votes: 4 13.8%

  • Don't know

    Votes: 0 0.0%
  • Total voters
    29
M

Messyantic

Guest
#21
#21
I myself do not tend to adhere to the trinity viewpoint. Not because I do not believe in the deity of Christ, I do. For me it is the fact that scripturally it is not supported and probably came from some other religion that believed in the holy mother. For me, there is YHVH. Then you have the holy presence of YHVH that can fall on someone aka the Holy Spirit. And finally you have Jesus, whose Hebrew name, Yeshua, basically means the physical presence of YHVH.

Now along with the Holy Spirit we have: the Spirit of Wisdom, Spirit of Judgment, Spirit of Grace and Isaiah's: The Spirit of the Lord will rest on him the Spirit of wisdom and of understanding, the Spirit of counsel and of power, the Spirit of knowledge and of the fear of the Lord.

And as far as Jesus/Yeshua is concerned, there are several places where the Angel of the Lord speaks as if he is God, not just an angel. And just who was that who ate with Abraham?

My biggest concern with the Trinity is that so many groups tend to focus on just one part of God, to the exclusion of the other parts. Some focus only on the Spirit and others never even mention Yahweh. I cannot count the number of believers who never read two-thirds of the bible, commonly referred to as the "Old Testament". Apparently that was inspired by a different God.

You can believe in the trinity, but does that cause you to forget about God?

Shalom
 
I

imoss

Banned
#22
Feb 27, 2007
3,179
19
0
#22
thats odd... every single Christian I know has read some of the old test... most of them ALOT of the old test books and & I'd say 1/2 the Christians I know have read ALL of the old test., with a couple of them doing so SEVERAL times. My signature is from proverbs. Watch the Christians post in here... often old test scripture is given. I think you have made an incorrect judgement of Christians. The finished work that is in Christ Jesus does not cause us to no longer desire to have knowledge of the Lord's will.
 
M

Messyantic

Guest
#23
#23
As a bible teacher and someone who has spent a lot of time in different denominations, I can tell you most Christians spend very little time in the OT. One such annecdotal evidence is the large number of bibles that are the New Testament and Psalms and Proverbs. I consider that to be blasphemy myself, but many churches give those out to kids as their first bible. What does that teach them?
 
QuestionTime

QuestionTime

Senior Member
#24
Feb 16, 2010
1,435
20
38
#24
Messyantic said:
As a bible teacher and someone who has spent a lot of time in different denominations, I can tell you most Christians spend very little time in the OT. One such annecdotal evidence is the large number of bibles that are the New Testament and Psalms and Proverbs. I consider that to be blasphemy myself, but many churches give those out to kids as their first bible. What does that teach them?
Click to expand...
To say this, you are basically claiming that reading Leviticus is as beneficial for the Christian, as is reading the Sermon on the Mount, or reading Romans or St. John.

I don't agree with your viewpoint.

Quest
 
MahogonySnail

MahogonySnail

Banned
#25
Jan 8, 2009
7,576
23
0
#25
It is fairly nonessential for a christian to read the old testament. I don't believe that there is any proof that early gentile christian converts were given any lesson in the old testament or Torah, let alone encouraged to read it for themself. They were encouraged to persist in the teachings of the apostles and the church, and as such, knowledge of the old testament was largely unnecsesary for most members of the congregation.
 
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R

Rogue

Banned
#26
Apr 4, 2010
79
0
0
#26
You know, Christians have said a lot of things in my life time that shocked me, but saying it is nonessential to read ANY part of the Scriptures just takes the cake...
 
MahogonySnail

MahogonySnail

Banned
#27
Jan 8, 2009
7,576
23
0
#27
Essential implies they cannot be a christian without it. Which is absolutely not true. No one waved a bible in my face before I could become a christian. I think it is like that for most people. The fact is that millions of christians in the world still do not have access to a bible, let alone an old testament. But, they are still christian. Something for you to think about.
 
R

Rogue

Banned
#28
Apr 4, 2010
79
0
0
#28
I wouldn't say essential means they can't be Christian without it, I'd say essential means...well, what it actually means.

Yes, you can be saved without reading the Scriptures, but they are certainly very essential to the faith...I mean, come on, it's the Word of God!
 
MahogonySnail

MahogonySnail

Banned
#29
Jan 8, 2009
7,576
23
0
#29
But is it essential for all, or most christians to be thoroughly versed in old testament scripture? As Messyantic said, most do not spend much time in the OT. I would answer, that it is not essential for most christians to be into the old testament. With new converts usually they are taken through the new testament first, and well that can take 5 years. For a person with a non-jewish background, the old testament is fairly meaningless anyway unless it is interpreted in light of the new testament. What is worse, a christian who has never read the old testament in their life, living by grace and faith in God, or a christian who has read the old testament and tries to keep the sabbath and the food laws? I would say this sort of person is in worse condition than the first.
 
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R

Rogue

Banned
#30
Apr 4, 2010
79
0
0
#30
MahogonySnail said:
But is it essential for all, or most christians to be thoroughly versed in old testament scripture? As Messyantic said, most do not spend much time in the OT. I would answer, that it is not essential for most christians to be into the old testament. With new converts usually they are taken through the new testament first, and well that can take 5 years. For a person with a non-jewish background, the old testament is fairly meaningless anyway unless it is interpreted in light of the new testament.
Click to expand...
Look, Scripture is like a basket. Every single verse is an individual strand of the basket. When weaved together, all the strands form the basket that is Scripture. If you start taking strands away, the basket loses the support it needs and will not do what it was made to do.

What is worse, a christian who has never read the old testament in their life, living by grace and faith in God, or a christian who has read the old testament and tries to keep the sabbath and the food laws? I would say this sort of person is in worse condition than the first.
Click to expand...
So...a person who has never read part of God's Word is in good shape, and a person who dares to actually follow part of it is in bad shape?

My head hurts...
 
MahogonySnail

MahogonySnail

Banned
#31
Jan 8, 2009
7,576
23
0
#31
You don't really need the old when you have the new. The only ones saying you need the old are Judaizers who dont' understand the grace of God, and want to keep the sabbath and things like this. My point was, that a person who has never read part of God's Word, is better off than a person who has read that part and misinterpreted it.
 
R

Rogue

Banned
#32
Apr 4, 2010
79
0
0
#32
This is...well, this is really quite astonishing. The idea that we don't need part of the holy Word of God that He gave us and preserved for us is completely new to me. I've heard some crazy stuff in church before, but this is really the king of it all.

They allow this kind of disparaging of the Word of God around here?
 
MahogonySnail

MahogonySnail

Banned
#33
Jan 8, 2009
7,576
23
0
#33
In the real world the majority of christians dont study the OT properly anyway, or don't have a copy of it. There are many christians in the world who dont have a complete bible because a) none exists in their own language or b) due to persecution are unable to obtain one or c) they are too poor to afford one.

If you claim it is needed, then you'd have to question God as to why He would allow millions of people to be saved who probably will be unable to study the old testament before they die. If the OT is so necessary, what are YOU doing about the shortage of bibles in the world so that every person has a chance to read a copy?
 
QuestionTime

QuestionTime

Senior Member
#34
Feb 16, 2010
1,435
20
38
#34
MahogonySnail said:
You don't really need the old when you have the new. The only ones saying you need the old are Judaizers who dont' understand the grace of God, and want to keep the sabbath and things like this. My point was, that a person who has never read part of God's Word, is better off than a person who has read that part and misinterpreted it.
Click to expand...

Great, we still have Judaizers today! Yuck!

I agree with Mahogony. If the Old Testament didn't save the Israelites - but rather encouraged them to establish their own righteousness - why should Christians not trip up in the same manner while reading them?
The new Covenant is about Grace, and about God obeying the Law through us. Once Christians understand grace, then they can take time to study the Old Testament.

Quest
 
phil36

phil36

Senior Member
#35
Feb 12, 2009
8,345
2,157
113
#35
QuestionTime said:

Great, we still have Judaizers today! Yuck!

I agree with Mahogony. If the Old Testament didn't save the Israelites - but rather encouraged them to establish their own righteousness - why should Christians not trip up in the same manner while reading them?
The new Covenant is about Grace, and about God obeying the Law through us. Once Christians understand grace, then they can take time to study the Old Testament.

Quest
Click to expand...

Wow quest, where in the bible did you get that from???

God obeys the law through us??
 
G

Gabriel777

Guest
#36
#36
How can Jesus be the Son and the Father at the same time? If God is the Father then he must have a son right? Jesus is not God, He is the SON of God. When it says that the Father has appointed his son heir, how can he appoint himself heir?
 
1

1still_waters

Guest
#37
#37
QuestionTime said:

Great, we still have Judaizers today! Yuck!

I agree with Mahogony. If the Old Testament didn't save the Israelites - but rather encouraged them to establish their own righteousness - why should Christians not trip up in the same manner while reading them?
The new Covenant is about Grace, and about God obeying the Law through us. Once Christians understand grace, then they can take time to study the Old Testament.

Quest
Click to expand...
Yup bigger problem than some even realize.
 
A

April6th

Guest
#39
#39
The Trinity is not a biblical doctrine. The Father, Son, Spirit manifestation was only an earthly manifestation. You will never read in the bible where it is a Triune God in heaven.
The earth cannot contain the full Godhead, so he has manifested himself 3 different ways for us to recieve.
Any questions just ask.
 
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