Your thoughts on An allegory of the covenants

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Pilgrimshope

Well-known member
Sep 2, 2020
1,789
529
113
#1
what do you make of Paul’s allegorical revelation of Ishmael and Isaac ?

I’m in a study and Just looking for some thoughts to consider from other believers thank you and God bless


Tell me, ye that desire to be under the law, do ye not hear the law?

For it is written, that Abraham had two sons, the one by a bondmaid,

the other by a freewoman.

But he who was of the bondwoman was born after the flesh;

but he of the freewoman was by promise.

Which things are an allegory: for these are the two covenants;

the one from the mount Sinai, which gendereth to bondage, which is Hagar. For this Hagar is mount Sinai in Arabia, and answereth to Jerusalem which now is, and is in bondage with her children.

But Jerusalem which is above is free, which is the mother of us all.

For it is written, Rejoice, thou barren that bearest not; break forth and cry, thou that travailest not: for the desolate hath many more children than she which hath an husband.

Now we, brethren, as Isaac was, are the children of promise.

But as then he that was born after the flesh persecuted him that was born after the Spirit, even so it is now.

Nevertheless what saith the scripture? Cast out the bondwoman and her son: for the son of the bondwoman shall not be heir with the son of the freewoman.

So then, brethren, we are not children of the bondwoman, but of the free.”
‭‭Galatians‬ ‭4:21-31‬ ‭

Paul is a revelator of Old Testament scripture . What does this allegory of Ishmael and Isaac mean to you ?

And how does it apply to New Testament believers and what does it say of the old covenant made at Sinai through Moses ?

any thoughts you have of Paul’s allegory are welcome thanks again
 

posthuman

Senior Member
Jul 31, 2013
31,329
10,408
113
#2
Galatians 4 is a great example for us of how scripture is meant to be interpreted.

It is literally true, and it is written for us as a testimony of the life, person and work of Christ.

If we are not finding Christ in the OT we are missing the point. All of these things are real people and real events and the reason they are here is in order to reveal the Lord and His work
 

Pilgrimshope

Well-known member
Sep 2, 2020
1,789
529
113
#3
Galatians 4 is a great example for us of how scripture is meant to be interpreted.

It is literally true, and it is written for us as a testimony of the life, person and work of Christ.

If we are not finding Christ in the OT we are missing the point. All of these things are real people and real events and the reason they are here is in order to reveal the Lord and His work
I don’t think I have ever heard that put so concisely and straight forward to the point before .

thanks for dropping that good consideration bro

I believe the New Testament is the right interpretation of the old
 

2ndTimothyGroup

Well-known member
Feb 20, 2021
1,507
617
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#4
Here's what the Lord has shown me. I hope that it's correct.

Gal 04:21-31 - Abraham's Covenant
The Covenant with the Slave woman is what it means to receive the Grace of God, the Circumcision. Those who receive the Circumcision of Christ are set free from the Laws of Moses, and will live by the Effectual Laws of the Spirit of Life.

Gal 04:22,23 - Abraham's Covenant
The slave woman gave birth to her son in the ordinary, human way, but Isaac was given birth by a promise. Abraham and Sarah were far too old, both with barren bodies but were enabled (Heb 11:11). It was their Faith in God that granted them this child named Isaac. - We know that this Promise isn't referring to the Land of Milk and Honey, because Paul teaches that Isaac had received the Promise as well . . . he ALREADY received the Promise . . . the gift of a Circumcised Heart and the gift of the Holy Spirit to guide and lead him through this early life.

Gal 04:24 - Haggar
Represents the 1st Covenant: Mt Sinai where people received the Law that Enslaved them.

Gal 04:24-25 - Laws Of Moses
Those who received the Ten Commandments were the Jews . . . Hence, they are the ones considered slaves; slaves to the Law that taught them what sin was.

Gal 04:26 - Sarah
Represents the 2nd Covenant with Heavenly Jerusalem.

Gal 04:26-27 - Laws of Spirit of Life
Sarah represents the Heavenly Jerusalem, or, the real and actual Promise of God. Sarah is reborn, born now, apart from the Law. She has been lifted of the Curse and given the Holy Spirit to guide her in her Faith. She has already received the Promise of the Heavenly Jerusalem. So, Sarah represents all of those who live by the Effectual and Causal Laws of the Spirit of Life, rather than the Laws that were prepared upon mere stone. And though the Laws of Moses are good, Holy and from above, they contain no Effective Power. The tablets of stone do not internally compel anyone; there is no influential Power in stone. But, with an Indwelling Spirit, there is Effectual Power Who guides and leads . . . that takes control of our thoughts and presses us into certain and specific directions that lead to Holiness.

Gal 04:28 - Abraham's Covenant
Who is Paul writing to? The Gentiles of Galatia. And here he is saying that they have received the Promises just as did Isaac? How can that be if the Promise is the land of Milk and Honey? It isn't. The Promises are the Powerful Gifts that come through and by Christ. So when Abraham attempted to fulfill the Promises of God within the life of a son, he did so out of a lack of Faith. But when He had been granted Faith, and thus believed in God, it was then that Abraham and Sarah, both old and barren, were able to give birth to Isaac . . . a son born from a Promise, the Son of Faith. Isaac was born out of the Faith of his parents . . . the Promise is that they would be given the Faith to believe, which would result in a son with the Seed of Christ within him. The Promise seems to include the Indestructive, Incorruptible Seed of Christ. It would seem that those who are chosen by God, they possess the Seed of Christ, and that Seed is planted at just the right time so as to be harvested at the right time (Paul is the perfect example of this, for he was allowed to even kill Christians before the Seed of Christ was planted into his heart).

Gal 04:29 - Laws Of Moses
Obeying the Law to be made right with God is equivalent to completing worldly acts to be right with God. Those worldly acts include obeying the Laws of Moses. Obeying those Laws are good, but that does not mean that the Curse of Adam and Eve has been lifted. But when the Curse is lifted and the Indwelling Holy Spirit takes control, there is no longer the need for Laws inscribed upon tablets of stone. Why? Those Laws are now Effectually inscribed upon the tablets of our hearts. - And look at what is written about Isaac! He was born by the Power of the Holy Spirit. This is the Promise . . . to be born, or even reborn with the Promise of the Powerful Holy Spirit.

Gal 04:31 - Laws of Spirit of Life
So, Abraham, Sarah, and Isaac were born (Isaac) and reborn (Abraham and Sarah) by the Promises of God. They all received these Promises, and Paul includes all who have received the Circumcision of Christ, that they too are Heirs of this Promise. To be born of the freewoman is what it means to be reborn and free from the Laws written upon mere tablets of stone. This is the Work of Christ, to set us free from the Law, and this cannot be done unless the Curse of Adam and Eve has been lifted from the Heart.
 

Nehemiah6

Senior Member
Jul 18, 2017
15,025
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113
#5
any thoughts you have of Paul’s allegory are welcome thanks again
An allegory is defined as "The representation of abstract ideas or principles by characters, figures, or events in narrative, dramatic, or pictorial form."

So allegories and types in the Bible are very similar, and there are types throughout the Bible, starting with Adam and Eve. Unless the Holy Spirit had revealed to Paul the fact that Sarah and Hagar, Isaac and Ishmael, and Mount Sinai and the New Jerusalem represented the two major Covenants, we would never have discovered this.

The Old Covenant (the Law of Moses) represents bondage to rites, rituals, and ceremonies. The New Covenant (the Law of Christ) represents freedom in Christ. Thus Hagar stands for the Old Covenant as the bondwoman, whereas Sarah stands for the New Covenant as the free woman. Consequently Isaac represents all believers as the children of promise, while Ishmael represents the unbelievers outside the promises of God. At the same time Abraham is represented as the metaphorical ancestor or "father" of all those who are justified by grace through faith.

But Paul also takes it one step further and contrasts Mount Sinai with the New Jerusalem. Mount Sinai represents bondage whereas the New Jerusalem represents heirs of God and joint heirs with Christ. In spite of all this, there are those who perversely seek to keep the Old Covenant (Moses) alive along with the New Covenant (Christ). So the epistle to the Hebrews is a warning -- particularly to Jewish believers, that they must totally forsake Moses and totally cling to Christ.
 

Blik

Senior Member
Dec 6, 2016
5,493
1,682
113
#6
what do you make of Paul’s allegorical revelation of Ishmael and Isaac ?

I’m in a study and Just looking for some thoughts to consider from other believers thank you and God bless


Tell me, ye that desire to be under the law, do ye not hear the law?

For it is written, that Abraham had two sons, the one by a bondmaid,

the other by a freewoman.

But he who was of the bondwoman was born after the flesh;

but he of the freewoman was by promise.

Which things are an allegory: for these are the two covenants;

the one from the mount Sinai, which gendereth to bondage, which is Hagar. For this Hagar is mount Sinai in Arabia, and answereth to Jerusalem which now is, and is in bondage with her children.

But Jerusalem which is above is free, which is the mother of us all.

For it is written, Rejoice, thou barren that bearest not; break forth and cry, thou that travailest not: for the desolate hath many more children than she which hath an husband.

Now we, brethren, as Isaac was, are the children of promise.

But as then he that was born after the flesh persecuted him that was born after the Spirit, even so it is now.

Nevertheless what saith the scripture? Cast out the bondwoman and her son: for the son of the bondwoman shall not be heir with the son of the freewoman.

So then, brethren, we are not children of the bondwoman, but of the free.”
‭‭Galatians‬ ‭4:21-31‬ ‭

Paul is a revelator of Old Testament scripture . What does this allegory of Ishmael and Isaac mean to you ?

And how does it apply to New Testament believers and what does it say of the old covenant made at Sinai through Moses ?

any thoughts you have of Paul’s allegory are welcome thanks again
I do not think it is correct to say that God made a promise with the first covenant, then God decided to cancel that promise, wipe it out, go back on the word He gave with that promise. I don't think scripture tells us this is what God did. It tells us there are things that are obsolete about that first promise. So we need to look at the first covenant and figure out what about it is obsolete, but not assume God is not an eternal true God we can depend on to never change but stay true.

The first covenant tells us we are blessed by obedience and cursed for disobedience. It does not say that salvation happens with obedience. It is like governments telling us that if you steal you go to jail, and if you apply yourself in working you gain. It is true.

However, under the old covenant we are to cut skin as a sign of circumcision of the heart. We are never to eat food that is from garbage as a reminder to not feed our spirit with garbage. That has been made obsolete, we have the Holy Spirit to tell us those things.
 

Pilgrimshope

Well-known member
Sep 2, 2020
1,789
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#7
I do not think it is correct to say that God made a promise with the first covenant, then God decided to cancel that promise, wipe it out, go back on the word He gave with that promise. I don't think scripture tells us this is what God did. It tells us there are things that are obsolete about that first promise. So we need to look at the first covenant and figure out what about it is obsolete, but not assume God is not an eternal true God we can depend on to never change but stay true.

The first covenant tells us we are blessed by obedience and cursed for disobedience. It does not say that salvation happens with obedience. It is like governments telling us that if you steal you go to jail, and if you apply yourself in working you gain. It is true.

However, under the old covenant we are to cut skin as a sign of circumcision of the heart. We are never to eat food that is from garbage as a reminder to not feed our spirit with garbage. That has been made obsolete, we have the Holy Spirit to tell us those things.

Who’s saying any of that ? Is that what you take from Paul’s allegory ?
 

Pilgrimshope

Well-known member
Sep 2, 2020
1,789
529
113
#8
An allegory is defined as "The representation of abstract ideas or principles by characters, figures, or events in narrative, dramatic, or pictorial form."

So allegories and types in the Bible are very similar, and there are types throughout the Bible, starting with Adam and Eve. Unless the Holy Spirit had revealed to Paul the fact that Sarah and Hagar, Isaac and Ishmael, and Mount Sinai and the New Jerusalem represented the two major Covenants, we would never have discovered this.

The Old Covenant (the Law of Moses) represents bondage to rites, rituals, and ceremonies. The New Covenant (the Law of Christ) represents freedom in Christ. Thus Hagar stands for the Old Covenant as the bondwoman, whereas Sarah stands for the New Covenant as the free woman. Consequently Isaac represents all believers as the children of promise, while Ishmael represents the unbelievers outside the promises of God. At the same time Abraham is represented as the metaphorical ancestor or "father" of all those who are justified by grace through faith.

But Paul also takes it one step further and contrasts Mount Sinai with the New Jerusalem. Mount Sinai represents bondage whereas the New Jerusalem represents heirs of God and joint heirs with Christ. In spite of all this, there are those who perversely seek to keep the Old Covenant (Moses) alive along with the New Covenant (Christ). So the epistle to the Hebrews is a warning -- particularly to Jewish believers, that they must totally forsake Moses and totally cling to Christ.
that is really interesting stuff there I’m recognizing what you are saying from the life of Ishmael and Isaac . Part of my study was to investigate the lives and existence of both sons because Paul is saying they represent the two covenants .

I find so much in what you are saying because i literally am In the middle of looking into it

let me make sure I’m understanding what you are saying ishmael represents the old covenant made through Moses at mount Sinai. And because Hagar was not abrams wife but his wife’s bond servant , this covenant engenders bondage ? Is that the connection in hearing you make ?

of course Among a few other good points you’ve made for
Consideration also but that one sticks out because of what God told abram when he renamed him Abraham and promised the eternal covenant would be through the promise of Isaac regarding which covenant would be eternal and which would be cast out of Abraham’s inheritance

“And when Abram was ninety years old and nine, the Lord appeared to Abram, and said unto him, I am the Almighty God; walk before me, and be thou perfect. And I will make my covenant between me and thee, and will multiply thee exceedingly. And Abram fell on his face: and God talked with him, saying, As for me, behold, my covenant is with thee, and thou shalt be a father of many nations. Neither shall thy name any more be called Abram, but thy name shall be Abraham; for a father of many nations have I made thee. And I will make thee exceeding fruitful, and I will make nations of thee, and kings shall come out of thee. And I will establish my covenant between me and thee and thy seed after thee in their generations for an everlasting covenant, to be a God unto thee, and to thy seed after thee.

He that is born in thy house, and he that is bought with thy money, must needs be circumcised: and my covenant shall be in your flesh for an everlasting covenant.

And God said unto Abraham, As for Sarai thy wife, thou shalt not call her name Sarai, but Sarah shall her name be. And I will bless her, and give thee a son also of her: yea, I will bless her, and she shall be a mother of nations; kings of people shall be of her.

And Abraham said unto God, O that Ishmael might live before thee! And God said, Sarah thy wife shall bear thee a son indeed; and thou shalt call his name Isaac: and I will establish my covenant with him for an everlasting covenant, and with his seed after him. And as for Ishmael, I have heard thee: Behold, I have blessed him, and will make him fruitful, and will multiply him exceedingly; twelve princes shall he beget, and I will make him a great nation.”
‭‭Genesis‬ ‭17:1-7, 13, 15-16, 18-20‬ ‭KJV‬‬

I think this sort of supports what you are saying very well in my mind thank you for taking the time to share that it’s really going to help me go mom a direction that makes sense

also I’m noticing of Ishmael represents the first covenant and Isaac the new

“And the Lord visited Sarah as he had said, and the Lord did unto Sarah as he had spoken. For Sarah conceived, and bare Abraham a son in his old age, at the set time of which God had spoken to him. And Abraham called the name of his son that was born unto him, whom Sarah bare to him, Isaac.

And Sarah saw the son of Hagar the Egyptian, which she had born unto Abraham, mocking. Wherefore she said unto Abraham, Cast out this bondwoman and her son: for the son of this bondwoman shall not be heir with my son, even with Isaac.

And the thing was very grievous in Abraham's sight because of his son.

And God said unto Abraham, Let it not be grievous in thy sight because of the lad, and because of thy bondwoman;

in all that Sarah hath said unto thee, hearken unto her voice; for in Isaac shall thy seed be called.

And also of the son of the bondwoman will I make a nation, because he is thy seed.”
‭‭Genesis‬ ‭21:1-3, 9-

if we take Paulson interpretations of this in the nt understanding seems to just happen ishmael is blessed but Isaac is Abraham’s seed . Ishmael eventually disappears from scripture but isaacs story results in Christ



Thank you
 

Pilgrimshope

Well-known member
Sep 2, 2020
1,789
529
113
#9
I do not think it is correct to say that God made a promise with the first covenant, then God decided to cancel that promise, wipe it out, go back on the word He gave with that promise. I don't think scripture tells us this is what God did. It tells us there are things that are obsolete about that first promise. So we need to look at the first covenant and figure out what about it is obsolete, but not assume God is not an eternal true God we can depend on to never change but stay true.

The first covenant tells us we are blessed by obedience and cursed for disobedience. It does not say that salvation happens with obedience. It is like governments telling us that if you steal you go to jail, and if you apply yourself in working you gain. It is true.

However, under the old covenant we are to cut skin as a sign of circumcision of the heart. We are never to eat food that is from garbage as a reminder to not feed our spirit with garbage. That has been made obsolete, we have the Holy Spirit to tell us those things.
I find what you are saying interesting about scripture telling us that parts of the law are obsolete can you note some scripture about that so I can look into the thought ?
 

Pilgrimshope

Well-known member
Sep 2, 2020
1,789
529
113
#10
Here's what the Lord has shown me. I hope that it's correct.

Gal 04:21-31 - Abraham's Covenant
The Covenant with the Slave woman is what it means to receive the Grace of God, the Circumcision. Those who receive the Circumcision of Christ are set free from the Laws of Moses, and will live by the Effectual Laws of the Spirit of Life.

Gal 04:22,23 - Abraham's Covenant
The slave woman gave birth to her son in the ordinary, human way, but Isaac was given birth by a promise. Abraham and Sarah were far too old, both with barren bodies but were enabled (Heb 11:11). It was their Faith in God that granted them this child named Isaac. - We know that this Promise isn't referring to the Land of Milk and Honey, because Paul teaches that Isaac had received the Promise as well . . . he ALREADY received the Promise . . . the gift of a Circumcised Heart and the gift of the Holy Spirit to guide and lead him through this early life.

Gal 04:24 - Haggar
Represents the 1st Covenant: Mt Sinai where people received the Law that Enslaved them.

Gal 04:24-25 - Laws Of Moses
Those who received the Ten Commandments were the Jews . . . Hence, they are the ones considered slaves; slaves to the Law that taught them what sin was.

Gal 04:26 - Sarah
Represents the 2nd Covenant with Heavenly Jerusalem.

Gal 04:26-27 - Laws of Spirit of Life
Sarah represents the Heavenly Jerusalem, or, the real and actual Promise of God. Sarah is reborn, born now, apart from the Law. She has been lifted of the Curse and given the Holy Spirit to guide her in her Faith. She has already received the Promise of the Heavenly Jerusalem. So, Sarah represents all of those who live by the Effectual and Causal Laws of the Spirit of Life, rather than the Laws that were prepared upon mere stone. And though the Laws of Moses are good, Holy and from above, they contain no Effective Power. The tablets of stone do not internally compel anyone; there is no influential Power in stone. But, with an Indwelling Spirit, there is Effectual Power Who guides and leads . . . that takes control of our thoughts and presses us into certain and specific directions that lead to Holiness.

Gal 04:28 - Abraham's Covenant
Who is Paul writing to? The Gentiles of Galatia. And here he is saying that they have received the Promises just as did Isaac? How can that be if the Promise is the land of Milk and Honey? It isn't. The Promises are the Powerful Gifts that come through and by Christ. So when Abraham attempted to fulfill the Promises of God within the life of a son, he did so out of a lack of Faith. But when He had been granted Faith, and thus believed in God, it was then that Abraham and Sarah, both old and barren, were able to give birth to Isaac . . . a son born from a Promise, the Son of Faith. Isaac was born out of the Faith of his parents . . . the Promise is that they would be given the Faith to believe, which would result in a son with the Seed of Christ within him. The Promise seems to include the Indestructive, Incorruptible Seed of Christ. It would seem that those who are chosen by God, they possess the Seed of Christ, and that Seed is planted at just the right time so as to be harvested at the right time (Paul is the perfect example of this, for he was allowed to even kill Christians before the Seed of Christ was planted into his heart).

Gal 04:29 - Laws Of Moses
Obeying the Law to be made right with God is equivalent to completing worldly acts to be right with God. Those worldly acts include obeying the Laws of Moses. Obeying those Laws are good, but that does not mean that the Curse of Adam and Eve has been lifted. But when the Curse is lifted and the Indwelling Holy Spirit takes control, there is no longer the need for Laws inscribed upon tablets of stone. Why? Those Laws are now Effectually inscribed upon the tablets of our hearts. - And look at what is written about Isaac! He was born by the Power of the Holy Spirit. This is the Promise . . . to be born, or even reborn with the Promise of the Powerful Holy Spirit.

Gal 04:31 - Laws of Spirit of Life
So, Abraham, Sarah, and Isaac were born (Isaac) and reborn (Abraham and Sarah) by the Promises of God. They all received these Promises, and Paul includes all who have received the Circumcision of Christ, that they too are Heirs of this Promise. To be born of the freewoman is what it means to be reborn and free from the Laws written upon mere tablets of stone. This is the Work of Christ, to set us free from the Law, and this cannot be done unless the Curse of Adam and Eve has been lifted from the Heart.
that’s some interesting thoughts thanks for taking the time

I think I have some agreement at points and also I think fundamentally some disagreement ( im no authority to correct you brother just a person wanting to discuss son please take that into consideration with my reply

I think jew and gentile are no different the commandments also apply in Christ

“For this, Thou shalt not commit adultery, Thou shalt not kill, Thou shalt not steal, Thou shalt not bear false witness, Thou shalt not covet; and if there be any other commandment, it is briefly comprehended in this saying, namely, Thou shalt love thy neighbour as thyself.

Love worketh no ill to his neighbour: therefore love is the fulfilling of the law.”
‭‭Romans‬ ‭13:9-10‬ ‭

What happens when we believe the gospel is a change of mind and heart through belief in the heart and mind . So we looking to be these folks

By this we know that we love the children of God, when we love God, and keep his commandments.

For this is the love of God, that we keep his commandments:

and his commandments are not grievous.”
‭‭1 John‬ ‭5:2-3‬ ‭KJV‬‬

We need to let belief form a new and better nature in us so we don’t have to fight against ourself to keep Gods word
 

2ndTimothyGroup

Well-known member
Feb 20, 2021
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#11
We need to let belief form a new and better nature in us so we don’t have to fight against ourselves to keep Gods word
That's the whole thing about what I was writing about. When Christ Circumcises the Heart of the Sinful Nature, that Sin Nature is replaced with the Divine Nature. This is the Work of Christ.

2 Peter 1:4 KJV - "Whereby are given unto us exceeding great and precious promises: that by these ye might be partakers of the divine nature, having escaped the corruption that is in the world through lust."

Think about it . . . how does one escape the corruption in the world? Colossians2:9-15 tells us that the Sinful Nature must be removed by Christ. The KJV refers to this procedure as an "Operation" - the Circumcision of Christ.

So again, when the Sin Nature is cut out and removed, it is replaced by the Divine Nature. And this is what happened to each of the Old Testament Patriarchs. Each of them was the recipient of the Work of Christ, including His sending of the Holy Spirit to guide His Chosen Ones. And with the guiding Holy Spirit, for those such as Moses and Joshua (and many more), the Spirit would issue additional gifts and Works per Holy Child.
 

Blik

Senior Member
Dec 6, 2016
5,493
1,682
113
#12
Who’s saying any of that ? Is that what you take from Paul’s allegory ?
""All of that" is what I think has to been the basis for saying that God cancelled the first covenant with us. God either took back His promise to us or God did not take it back.
 

Blik

Senior Member
Dec 6, 2016
5,493
1,682
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#13
I find what you are saying interesting about scripture telling us that parts of the law are obsolete can you note some scripture about that so I can look into the thought ?
This requires a concordance to look up topics, and a thorough study of scripture. Gal. 3:14 tells us not to follow Jewish custom. You need a thorough study of God as an eternal God who never changes, also the characteristics of God as especially Psalms gives it. A study of the ways of the Pharisee helps, giving Jewish customs. But a basic study is a study of what scriptural covenant means.
 

Nehemiah6

Senior Member
Jul 18, 2017
15,025
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#14
let me make sure I’m understanding what you are saying ishmael represents the old covenant made through Moses at mount Sinai. And because Hagar was not abrams wife but his wife’s bond servant , this covenant engenders bondage ? Is that the connection in hearing you make ?
Not exactly. the bondwoman represents bondage to the the Old Covenant, but it also results in bondage to rites, rituals, and ceremonies, which are all shadows. The reality is Christ. Also, many Jews were (and are) mistakenly led to believe that they could be justified by the works of the Law. But they should have remembered that Abraham was justified by grace through faith before the Law came into existence.
 

tribesman

Senior Member
Oct 13, 2011
4,617
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#15
Paul is a revelator of Old Testament scripture . What does this allegory of Ishmael and Isaac mean to you ?

And how does it apply to New Testament believers and what does it say of the old covenant made at Sinai through Moses ?

any thoughts you have of Paul’s allegory are welcome thanks again
Should not be viewed as there is any fault with the law of Moses, for there is not. However, the law does point to Christ and the gospel and that's the reality in which we live.
 

Pilgrimshope

Well-known member
Sep 2, 2020
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#16
Not exactly. the bondwoman represents bondage to the the Old Covenant, but it also results in bondage to rites, rituals, and ceremonies, which are all shadows. The reality is Christ. Also, many Jews were (and are) mistakenly led to believe that they could be justified by the works of the Law. But they should have remembered that Abraham was justified by grace through faith before the Law came into existence.
some Christians also believe the works of the law are for this covenant. Others explain parts of the law were changed , others claim nothing applies to the new covenant not even christs word.

it’s a confusing world for a Christian looking for the right doctrine .
 

2ndTimothyGroup

Well-known member
Feb 20, 2021
1,507
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#17
it’s a confusing world for a Christian looking for the right doctrine .
It sure is. So . . . who should a new "Christian" believe? The Doctrine that a new "Christian" receives is one in a million. Scary.
 

Pilgrimshope

Well-known member
Sep 2, 2020
1,789
529
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#18
That's the whole thing about what I was writing about. When Christ Circumcises the Heart of the Sinful Nature, that Sin Nature is replaced with the Divine Nature. This is the Work of Christ.

2 Peter 1:4 KJV - "Whereby are given unto us exceeding great and precious promises: that by these ye might be partakers of the divine nature, having escaped the corruption that is in the world through lust."

Think about it . . . how does one escape the corruption in the world? Colossians2:9-15 tells us that the Sinful Nature must be removed by Christ. The KJV refers to this procedure as an "Operation" - the Circumcision of Christ.

So again, when the Sin Nature is cut out and removed, it is replaced by the Divine Nature. And this is what happened to each of the Old Testament Patriarchs. Each of them was the recipient of the Work of Christ, including His sending of the Holy Spirit to guide His Chosen Ones. And with the guiding Holy Spirit, for those such as Moses and Joshua (and many more), the Spirit would issue additional gifts and Works per Holy Child.
yeah believing the gospel changes our understanding . The things Jesus taught in the gospel are the thkngs the holy spiritual taught and will teach us . That’s what changes our understanding to believe the gospel his understanding

I don’t think that it magically happens I think we have to believe the gospel and that then changes us through belief as we begin to walk it out this “new nature “

I agree with you what I’m saying is we have to accept and believe the gospel and not avoid it in order to be changed to believe that Jesus exists and even he died formoir sins is good and true but to reject the gospel is still damnation

when we accept Christ he will do what you are saying but our part is to abide in his word and accept it that is the operation of how he changes us

My only point in responding is the word is the spirit we can’t receive the spirit until we hear and receive the word

“It is the spirit that quickeneth; the flesh profiteth nothing: the words that I speak unto you, they are spirit, and they are life.”
‭‭John‬ ‭6:63‬ ‭

I think we are agreeing which is what I was hoping for. My only point is the change happens when we hear and accept the word that is what changes us .. if we wanted to learn how to operate a tractor we would have to accept the words that taught us

if we wanted to change from a farmer to a doctor we would have to learn new words that carry thre right information

the gospel Jesus taught is the right information to shape our mind heart and belief that belief is part of the change that needs happen
 

Pilgrimshope

Well-known member
Sep 2, 2020
1,789
529
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#19
It sure is. So . . . who should a new "Christian" believe? The Doctrine that a new "Christian" receives is one in a million. Scary.
Amen

“Whosoever transgresseth, and abideth not in the doctrine of Christ, hath not God.

He that abideth in the doctrine of Christ, he hath both the Father and the Son.

If there come any unto you, and bring not this doctrine, receive him not into your house, neither bid him God speed:”
‭‭2 John‬ ‭1:9-10‬ ‭KJV‬‬


if we as Christians could simply agree on the proper doctrine to believe I think the church would begin to flourish

it is frightening but it was always foretold

Preach the word; be instant in season, out of season; reprove, rebuke, exhort with all longsuffering and doctrine.

For the time will come when they will not endure sound doctrine; but after their own lusts shall they heap to themselves teachers, having itching ears; And they shall turn away their ears from the truth, and shall be turned unto fables.”
‭‭2 Timothy‬ ‭4:2-4‬ ‭KJV‬‬

what’s sad and terrible is who’s behind all of the confusion and darkness that seeks to get them to disbelieve the one gospel

“But if our gospel be hid, it is hid to them that are lost: In whom the god of this world hath blinded the minds of them which believe not,

lest the light of the glorious gospel of Christ, who is the image of God, should shine unto them.”
‭‭2 Corinthians‬ ‭4:3-4‬ ‭KJV‬‬

if we could all look to the light and know it’s the one doctrine a lot would change and he would lose his foothold in the church
 

JaumeJ

Senior Member
Jul 2, 2011
18,756
4,876
113
#20
It is written Hagar represents the Jerusalem of this age while Sarah represents the eternal New Jerusalem of God.

Sarah is free while Hagar is a slave. This would require true study , meditation and prayer by the student of the Word.