You've got the read the Hebrew...

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posthuman

Senior Member
Jul 31, 2013
25,903
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#41
i'm always skeptical & suspicious whenever anyone dissuades me from increasing in learning, accumulating knowledge or growing in understanding.


:)
 

Blik

Senior Member
Dec 6, 2016
2,003
586
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#42
One phrase that is often mooted by those who wish to manipulate or deceive (e.g. tithing) or even somebody who wants to talk you round to their own interpretation of the Bible is

"You've got to read the Hebrew to truly/fully understand the context/meaning".

To people that say this kind of thing, are you suggesting that God was unsuccessful in translating the Bible to other languages, or that God did so incorrectly or not fully?
Yes, a knowledge of the Hebrew is sometimes needed to understand scripture.

Hebrew is a language different from any other and best expresses spiritual concepts.

Each person chosen by God to write His words had Hebrew as their first language, even when they wrote in Greek or other languages. When Alexander the Great brought the Greek kind of thinking into the world many things were changed. It takes a Greek mindset to invent, our technical world was built with this kind of thinking.

An example of the Greek words as a basis for translation instead of the Hebrew word is the word lampstand as is found in Revelation. The Hebrew ffor lampstand is menorah. A lampstand has no symbolic meaning but a menorah has much symbolism in Hebrew. Reading Revelation knowing that the lampstand was a menorah makes the understanding of this chapter much clearer. Rev. was written in Greek, but by John who was a Hebrew with a Hebrew mindset.
 

Adam4Eve

Active member
Nov 26, 2018
179
41
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#43
i'm always skeptical & suspicious whenever anyone dissuades me from increasing in learning, accumulating knowledge or growing in understanding.


:)
Or claim to have knowledge themselves which is only accessible to you through learning another language (which in fact they don't know themselves) and using the fact that you're not multilingual as a stick with which to pressure you in to accepting what they (not God) says?
 

posthuman

Senior Member
Jul 31, 2013
25,903
7,070
113
#44
Interesting point actually because if somebody claims that their preferred version more accurately represents the word of God, then they are implying that God incorrectly or inaccurately translated the Bible for all to read.
are you implying all versions in all languages are equally valid? no verse in any version in any language is incorrect?

:unsure:
 

Adam4Eve

Active member
Nov 26, 2018
179
41
28
#45
are you implying all versions in all languages are equally valid? no verse in any version in any language is incorrect?

:unsure:
Is there no verse in the Bible that talks about God translating his word into other languages...?
 

Dino246

Senior Member
Jun 30, 2015
12,327
6,484
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#46
Is there no verse in the Bible that talks about God translating his word into other languages...?
What are you getting at? God confused the languages at Babel. He is certainly capable of translating. However, translation of the Bible from Greek and Hebrew into other languages was done by humans, not by God.
 

posthuman

Senior Member
Jul 31, 2013
25,903
7,070
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#47
Or claim to have knowledge themselves which is only accessible to you through learning another language (which in fact they don't know themselves) and using the fact that you're not multilingual as a stick with which to pressure you in to accepting what they (not God) says?
that's a completely different scenario than "the Hebrew or Greek brings out a meaning not evident in the English or Icelandic"

and if, hypothetically, your straw person actually did do what you say, you *could* hypothetically go pick up some knowledge about the original languages yourself and either verify or dismiss what they had told you. which is to say, it would not be what "they" say but in fact what God says, given that God is the one who inspired the scripture as it was written.


nevertheless it's the Spirit that teaches, no matter how wise or knowledgeable any human teacher we have is. you can hear exactly the same words, in whatever language, and with the Spirit they are life, and without the Spirit they are gibberish.
 

posthuman

Senior Member
Jul 31, 2013
25,903
7,070
113
#48
Is there no verse in the Bible that talks about God translating his word into other languages...?
i was under the impression you knew of one . . ? by all means; in form us :)
are you talking about what happened on that one first-fruits day when the disciples were gathered in the upper room waiting?
 

posthuman

Senior Member
Jul 31, 2013
25,903
7,070
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#49
Or claim to have knowledge themselves which is only accessible to you through learning another language (which in fact they don't know themselves) and using the fact that you're not multilingual as a stick with which to pressure you in to accepting what they (not God) says?
hey,

i do not mean to imply that the scripture and the gospel contained in it cannot be ascertained and fully understood through any faithful translation. it's the work of God that opens the heart and mind to understand. but i do believe that God purposefully chose Hebrew & Greek to record His book for us. it wasn't arbitrary; nothing He does is arbitrary IMO.

but i am wondering, having now caught up through the thread, if there isn't some specific circumstance or event that happened to you? like an actual literal conversation you had with someone about some particular scripture, where they had a view of it that you didn't agree with, and while discussing it, they tried to explain their view through some nuance of Hebrew or Greek, and you were not convinced, but didn't really have the background or opportunity to find out if what they said about the language was decisive or meritorious at all.. ? so you felt like you were being intellectually brow-beaten in an unscrupulous way?

if that's the case why don't you tell us what the particular passage is that started all this?
if it's not, forgive my curiosity & speculation, please. it occurred to me out of concern for you.
 
L

LPT

Guest
#50
Or claim to have knowledge themselves which is only accessible to you through learning another language (which in fact they don't know themselves) and using the fact that you're not multilingual as a stick with which to pressure you in to accepting what they (not God) says?
Another language maybe but knowledge of reasons do help like this below Matt 27:9,, reason once there was just a book called the book of prophets, Jeremiah was the title but actually it was Zachariah all the prophets were placed in that book of Jeremiah thus got a little mistranslated.

Zachariah 11
Thirty Pieces of Silver
…11It was revoked on that day, and so the afflicted of the flock who were watching me knew that it was the word of the LORD. 12Then I told them, “If it seems right to you,give me my wages; but if not, keep them.” So they weighed out my wages, thirty pieces of silver. 13And the LORD said to me, “Throw it to the potter”—this magnificent price at which they valued me. So I took the thirty pieces of silver and threw them to the potter in the house of the LORD.…

Cross References
Matthew 26:15
and asked, "What are you willing to give me if I hand Him over to you?" And they set out for him thirty pieces of silver.

Matthew 27:9
Then what was spoken through Jeremiah the prophet was fulfilled: "They took the thirty pieces of silver, the price set on Him by the people of Israel,

Matthew 27:10
and they gave them for the potter's field, as the Lord had commanded me."
 

Lanolin

Well-known member
Dec 15, 2018
5,012
1,969
113
#51
What were they talking about, tithing, or were they referring to tithing in OT times. Meaning the context of it with the Hebrew people rather than the language.

Because as far as I know it was first done as a tribute to Kings, and then it became part of the temple rituals as a way to bring in food for the Levites to live off, since they didnt own any land and couldnt grow their own. Its just a tenth of what is produced.

It didnt become money until wolves in sheeps clothing decided it was money, so that on top of regular taxes ...which can be anywhere from 10 to 33 percent of your income, for govt services you now have to pay like a church tax as well.
 

Angela53510

Senior Member
Jan 24, 2011
10,803
1,897
113
#52
I read Hebrew and Greek. I use both languages all the time in my studies.

That being said, the Bible faithfully translated by human beings in our heart language, is all we need to hear the gospel, and for God to save us, and to grow as a follower of Jesus Christ.

Now, theology is a different matter. In order to exegete the text, you really do need to know the original languages. For one thing, as someone said, verb tenses have different nuances. Rather than time being important in Greek, aspect is. Thus, the Aorist, which we like to think of as past tense, is often used for present tense, and sometimes even future.

Noun cases don't exist in English. At least not spelled out. German has them, and they are virtually identical to Greek. There are many subtleties that come out of this. I remember one passage where an adjective was separated from its noun by 25 words. You can't do that in English. You can in Greek, because the case endings show you the adjective and it's noun.

Consequently, the run on sentences which Paul uses, which are perfectly acceptable in Greek, have to be changed. Subjects have to be thrown forward in English, losing the emphasis if they were thrown back in Greek.

And sometimes, what seems easy and clear in English is tricky in Greek. Some passages it is difficult to translate perfectly. We are not 1st century Greeks or Hebrews, and there are times the cultural implications are lost in translation.

My advice is to find a good, modern version and read it. Don't worry about minute variations. God will speak to you from the Bible. If you start being interested in Greek and Hebrew, take some classes. There are some good on-line classes, now. Don't do concordance theology. I say that, because before I knew the original languages, I came up with some wrong ideas, using only Strong's. A good knowledge of grammar is essential, to exegete the text, and a good vocabulary helps. Greek has been studied to death. You can get flash cards with the highest frequencies, and memorize them. Hebrew also has flash card sets. But if you don't want to study, God will lead you in English!
 
L

LPT

Guest
#53
Matthew 27:9 in Aramaic I think is the only bible translation that does not use the name Jeremiah which IMO is more sound the verse is somewhat complex to translate. so I think at times even some obscure bible version can be a better translation.

Matt 27:9
Aramaic Bible in Plain English
Then was fulfilled what was spoken by the Prophet who said, “I took thirty silver coins, the price of The Precious One on which they of the children of Israel had agreed.
 

Elene

New member
Jan 4, 2019
11
21
3
#54
Good morning, i have ( geslapen in het Engels) well, and now im going to the sabbath groupe. Maybe i hear something about this subject there. Then i will share it.
For now, peace to you all :)

Ps I get a smile of reading your opinions, because your talking nice and complicated, for me, at the same time.
 
Mar 23, 2016
3,248
832
113
#55
Another language maybe but knowledge of reasons do help like this below Matt 27:9,, reason once there was just a book called the book of prophets, Jeremiah was the title but actually it was Zachariah all the prophets were placed in that book of Jeremiah thus got a little mistranslated.

Zachariah 11
Thirty Pieces of Silver
…11It was revoked on that day, and so the afflicted of the flock who were watching me knew that it was the word of the LORD. 12Then I told them, “If it seems right to you,give me my wages; but if not, keep them.” So they weighed out my wages, thirty pieces of silver. 13And the LORD said to me, “Throw it to the potter”—this magnificent price at which they valued me. So I took the thirty pieces of silver and threw them to the potter in the house of the LORD.…
Matthew 27:9 Then was fulfilled that which was spoken by Jeremy the prophet, saying, And they took the thirty pieces of silver, the price of him that was valued, whom they of the children of Israel did value

Could it have been written by the prophet Zechariah and spoken by Jeremiah, just as shown in Matt 27:9?


 

Lanolin

Well-known member
Dec 15, 2018
5,012
1,969
113
#56
One phrase that is often mooted by those who wish to manipulate or deceive (e.g. tithing) or even somebody who wants to talk you round to their own interpretation of the Bible is

"You've got to read the Hebrew to truly/fully understand the context/meaning".

To people that say this kind of thing, are you suggesting that God was unsuccessful in translating the Bible to other languages, or that God did so incorrectly or not fully?
I read your post again and was thinking maybe they meant you just need to read the Hebrew Bible i.e. The OLD testament, to understand the context and meaning, not that you actually have to know the hebrew language itself. Or maybe they meant the Book of Hebrews. But I think the former, because tithing is explained in the OT, not the NT. The Pharisees did tithe their cumin and mint, but its not really explained why they did so.

Most good translations will translate directly from the Hebrew. The OT was orignally written in Hebrew, so its best to read a translation from the orignial, not from the greek, or the latin (and then back into english). Of couse it does help to know Hebrew words.

I dont know why else they would say that to you, unless they were a Hebrew speaker themselves or teaching Hebrew and wanted you to learn. We know the Bible is now translated into nearly every language in the world. GOd didnt translate the Bible, people do, but it doesnt mean God only wanted Hebrew speakers to read the Bible otherwise He wouldnt have given the gift of tongues...and no gentiles would have been offered salvation!
 
L

LPT

Guest
#57
Matthew 27:9 in Aramaic I think is the only bible translation that does not use the name Jeremiah which IMO is more sound the verse is somewhat complex to translate. so I think at times even some obscure bible version can be a better translation.

Matt 27:9
Aramaic Bible in Plain English
Then was fulfilled what was spoken by the Prophet who said, “I took thirty silver coins, the price of The Precious One on which they of the children of Israel had agreed.
IMO this is one of the most useful allowed misquotes, when someone sees it they search and find the correct meaning that can be quite jubilant to find indeed.. but all in all does God need a universe a galaxy a earth a book to be perfect in physical existence, lol yea right...
Matthew 27:9 Then was fulfilled that which was spoken by Jeremy the prophet, saying, And they took the thirty pieces of silver, the price of him that was valued, whom they of the children of Israel did value

Could it have been written by the prophet Zechariah and spoken by Jeremiah, just as shown in Matt 27:9?
In Zachariah chapter 11 it is Zachariah who speaks.
 
L

LPT

Guest
#59
I understand that. Could Jeremiah also have spoken the words?
I haven’t seen in Jeremiah that he did,

there is a account that seems similar but the amount is different if that is what you mean I think 17 something like that.
 
L

LPT

Guest
#60
If I’m not mistaken the change to the verse came by some cardinal in early century’s,something like that.