Birth Control...thoughts?

[iraasuup]

Matthew 5:17-20
Don't think I have come to abolish the Torah or the Prophets. I have come not to abolish but to complete. Yes indeed! I tell you that until heaven and earth pass away, not so much as a yud or a stroke will pass from the Torah - not until everything that must happen has happened. So whoever disobeys the least of these mitzvot and teaches others to do so will be called least in the Kingdom of Heaven. But whoever obeys them and so teaches will be called great in the Kingdom of Heaven. For I tell you that unless your righteousness is far greater than that of the Torah-teachers and P'rushim, you will certainly not enter the Kingdom of Heaven!

Yeshua's words, btw.

Interesting, I looked up that same verse in a bunch of different versions, here's what I got:

NKJV :

17 “Do not think that I came to destroy the Law or the Prophets. I did not come to destroy but to fulfill. 18 For assuredly, I say to you, till heaven and earth pass away, one jot or one tittle will by no means pass from the law till all is fulfilled. 19 Whoever therefore breaks one of the least of these commandments, and teaches men so, shall be called least in the kingdom of heaven; but whoever does and teaches them, he shall be called great in the kingdom of heaven. 20 For I say to you, that unless your righteousness exceeds the righteousness of the scribes and Pharisees, you will by no means enter the kingdom of heaven.

NLT:

17 “Don’t misunderstand why I have come. I did not come to abolish the law of Moses or the writings of the prophets. No, I came to accomplish their purpose. 18 I tell you the truth, until heaven and earth disappear, not even the smallest detail of God’s law will disappear until its purpose is achieved. 19 So if you ignore the least commandment and teach others to do the same, you will be called the least in the Kingdom of Heaven. But anyone who obeys God’s laws and teaches them will be called great in the Kingdom of Heaven.
20 “But I warn you—unless your righteousness is better than the righteousness of the teachers of religious law and the Pharisees, you will never enter the Kingdom of Heaven!

NIV:

17"Do not think that I have come to abolish the Law or the Prophets; I have not come to abolish them but to fulfill them. 18I tell you the truth, until heaven and earth disappear, not the smallest letter, not the least stroke of a pen, will by any means disappear from the Law until everything is accomplished. 19Anyone who breaks one of the least of these commandments and teaches others to do the same will be called least in the kingdom of heaven, but whoever practices and teaches these commands will be called great in the kingdom of heaven. 20For I tell you that unless your righteousness surpasses that of the Pharisees and the teachers of the law, you will certainly not enter the kingdom of heaven.

KJV:


17Think not that I am come to destroy the law, or the prophets: I am not come to destroy, but to fulfil.

18For verily I say unto you, Till heaven and earth pass, one jot or one tittle shall in no wise pass from the law, till all be fulfilled.

19Whosoever therefore shall break one of these least commandments, and shall teach men so, he shall be called the least in the kingdom of heaven: but whosoever shall do and teach them, the same shall be called great in the kingdom of heaven.

20For I say unto you, That except your righteousness shall exceed the righteousness of the scribes and Pharisees, ye shall in no case enter into the kingdom of heaven.


NCV:

17 "Don't think that I have come to destroy the law of Moses or the teaching of the prophets. I have not come to destroy them but to bring about what they said. 18 I tell you the truth, nothing will disappear from the law until heaven and earth are gone. Not even the smallest letter or the smallest part of a letter will be lost until everything has happened.19 Whoever refuses to obey any command and teaches other people not to obey that command will be the least important in the kingdom of heaven. But whoever obeys the commands and teaches other people to obey them will be great in the kingdom of heaven. 20 I tell you that if you are no more obedient than the teachers of the law and the Pharisees, you will never enter the kingdom of heaven.


Do you want me to keep going? I dunno what bible you're reading, but clearly it's not the same as mine, and I just gave you five different translations! Odd, I see nothing about the Mitzvot, how about that?

 

[Arel]

Interesting, I looked up that same verse in a bunch of different versions, here's what I got:

NKJV :

17 “Do not think that I came to destroy the Law or the Prophets. I did not come to destroy but to fulfill. 18 For assuredly, I say to you, till heaven and earth pass away, one jot or one tittle will by no means pass from the law till all is fulfilled. 19 Whoever therefore breaks one of the least of these commandments, and teaches men so, shall be called least in the kingdom of heaven; but whoever does and teaches them, he shall be called great in the kingdom of heaven. 20 For I say to you, that unless your righteousness exceeds the righteousness of the scribes and Pharisees, you will by no means enter the kingdom of heaven.

NLT:

17 “Don’t misunderstand why I have come. I did not come to abolish the law of Moses or the writings of the prophets. No, I came to accomplish their purpose. 18 I tell you the truth, until heaven and earth disappear, not even the smallest detail of God’s law will disappear until its purpose is achieved. 19 So if you ignore the least commandment and teach others to do the same, you will be called the least in the Kingdom of Heaven. But anyone who obeys God’s laws and teaches them will be called great in the Kingdom of Heaven.
20 “But I warn you—unless your righteousness is better than the righteousness of the teachers of religious law and the Pharisees, you will never enter the Kingdom of Heaven!

NIV:

17"Do not think that I have come to abolish the Law or the Prophets; I have not come to abolish them but to fulfill them. 18I tell you the truth, until heaven and earth disappear, not the smallest letter, not the least stroke of a pen, will by any means disappear from the Law until everything is accomplished. 19Anyone who breaks one of the least of these commandments and teaches others to do the same will be called least in the kingdom of heaven, but whoever practices and teaches these commands will be called great in the kingdom of heaven. 20For I tell you that unless your righteousness surpasses that of the Pharisees and the teachers of the law, you will certainly not enter the kingdom of heaven.

KJV:


17Think not that I am come to destroy the law, or the prophets: I am not come to destroy, but to fulfil.

18For verily I say unto you, Till heaven and earth pass, one jot or one tittle shall in no wise pass from the law, till all be fulfilled.

19Whosoever therefore shall break one of these least commandments, and shall teach men so, he shall be called the least in the kingdom of heaven: but whosoever shall do and teach them, the same shall be called great in the kingdom of heaven.

20For I say unto you, That except your righteousness shall exceed the righteousness of the scribes and Pharisees, ye shall in no case enter into the kingdom of heaven.


NCV:

17 "Don't think that I have come to destroy the law of Moses or the teaching of the prophets. I have not come to destroy them but to bring about what they said. 18 I tell you the truth, nothing will disappear from the law until heaven and earth are gone. Not even the smallest letter or the smallest part of a letter will be lost until everything has happened.19 Whoever refuses to obey any command and teaches other people not to obey that command will be the least important in the kingdom of heaven. But whoever obeys the commands and teaches other people to obey them will be great in the kingdom of heaven. 20 I tell you that if you are no more obedient than the teachers of the law and the Pharisees, you will never enter the kingdom of heaven.


Do you want me to keep going? I dunno what bible you're reading, but clearly it's not the same as mine, and I just gave you five different translations! Odd, I see nothing about the Mitzvot, how about that?

You see nothing about the mitzvot because you don't understand what the mitzvot is. But no matter what translation you get, it will always say the same thing mine (Hebrew translation) says. "Mitzvot" means "commandment" or "teaching" or "instruction" in Hebrew. The Torah (five books of Moses, first five in the bible) is full of 613 mitzvot - the Torah is the law Yeshua is talking about.

 

[Kaitlin]

Yes, I am for real.

Why do you think that I cannot tell someone they are sinning when that person is sinning? I view birth control as a sin. Since when was it wrong to say something is a sin?

If a person is willing to give up "lifelong happiness" just because that person has such an aversion to having children, I would have to question why a person was so set against the idea of having kids. It does not seem natural to me for people to not want children.

Agreed, lil-rush. It does not seem natural to me either for couples not to want children especially since it is a God-given desire. I personally think it is a spiritual problem, namely selfishness.

And yes, the Torah is the Law... common knowledge.

 

[Arel]

Agreed, lil-rush. It does not seem natural to me either for couples not to want children especially since it is a God-given desire. I personally think it is a spiritual problem, namely selfishness.

And yes, the Torah is the Law... common knowledge.

Obviously not common enough, given iraasuup's ignorance

 

[iraasuup]

I'm not ignorant.

People who tell me that it's not natural for people to not want children, or say that couples shouldn't get married if they don't plan on having children, or make rash outlandish accusations of people sinning, because they can't agree... that's IGNORANT!

I'm gracefully bowing out of this thread now! It seems we're getting nowhere fast. But at least I've increased my post count!

 

[Arel]

You're ignorant at least of what a mitzvot is. I'm sorry I showed that you are wrong. Maybe next time you'll be able to form a better argument that isn't so easy to tear down

 

[iraasuup]

I know I said I was leaving, however I have just one more thing to say:

Go back and read ALL my posts on BOTH threads, before you cast judgement. I know what the mitzvot is, I'm just not Jewish, so it's of no relevance to me.

 

[Arel]

And I showed you quite clearly where Yeshua himself says that it most certainly IS relevant to you, assuming you follow him.

 

[Mahanis]

So, the Old Testament has no relevance to you? That is a ridiculous notion. "Well, it's the Jewish part, God's word Before Jesus doesn't matter any more." Seems rather arrogant to me, honestly...

Now, question. How do you all view birth control when used for reasons other than preventing birth?

 

[iraasuup]

*sigh*


I didn't mean the old testament has no relevance to me, again I say GO BACK, and read ALL my posts in both threads. I have gone over this repeatedly. I won't bother explaining, because I did it in full detail in earlier posts and no one listened anyway.

In answer to your question: I see no problem with birth control at all, for any reason - health related or otherwise. Everybody's personal situation is different. Some girls have health issues, some don't. Some girls don't want kids, some do. Some girls CAN't have kids, some can. You see my point right, everyones situation is different. I could sit here and rattle off all the contributing factors to my own personal situation that have lead me to my choice, but I'm not going to, because (a) They are personal and of no-one else's concern, and (b) I don't have to justify myself to anyone.

At the end of the day I know my limitations. I know my situation (health and otherwise -and yes mine is complicated), yet people seem to overlook that- like it doesn't matter if i simply HAVE NO CHOICE, I'm sinning regardless. Now, THAT is arrogant.

Passing judgement on decisions other people make for their lives without knowing the details, that's arrogant. I'm not saying you have done this Mahanis(I beleive this is your first post on this thread) but many others have.

This whole thread has been filled with people who CHOOSE for themselves not to believe in birth control (for reasons that are best suited to their own situation) and use those personal beliefs/convictions to condemn me as sinner, because I don't agree with them.

I will not be pressured into changing my mind, by people who simply don't have the facts. Until God tells me otherwise (and believe it or not I did consult with Him over this) I won't change my mind.

THE END!

 

[lil-rush]

You make the assumption that just because I do not support birth control that I have not considered the implications that entails.

The fact of the matter is, I am well aware of the myriad of uses for birth control -ranging from acne medicine, to birth control, to severe cramp stabilizer and everything in between. I know birth controls benefits, and I know its drawbacks.

Don't assume that just because I disagree with you I am ill informed.

 

[iraasuup]

You are ill-informed.

Do you know MY PERSONAL situation? No, you don't.

Therefore calling ME a sinner, without knowing the situation I face, well yes, that makes you ill-informed.

 

[Arel]

You are ill-informed.

Do you know MY PERSONAL situation? No, you don't.

Therefore calling ME a sinner, without knowing the situation I face, well yes, that makes you ill-informed.

Or, y'know, it might just make you a sinner.

Just sayin'. You're not infallible, and therefore can be wrong.

 

[lil-rush]

Technically, I never called you a sinner. I said using birth control is a sin. And by that I meant using birth control as a form of birth control is a sin. I never said using birth control to help with a medical condition or something of the sort is a sin.

But, as Arel said, you may be a sinning in relation to the use of birth control. I don't know. That's between you and God.

 

[iraasuup]

Sure, I can be wrong.

But I'm not. God hasn't told me not to use birth control. I'm quite sure God has my personal interest at heart.

He knows my situation, (and it's not the ordinary situation- it's none of those common things lil-rush mentioned) and He knows my heart.

You know what, right now children are simply NOT an option for me. I don't know if they ever will be. So I refuse to sit here and have you all jump down my throat telling me what I should and shouldn't be doing with my personal life, when you simply have no grasp of my situation. Nor will I have you tell me that regardless, I'm still sinning, so therefore should just abstain. Marriage is about MORE than procreation. So much more. I find so much humour and irony in the fact that the people being most vocal about this topic aren't married. On top of not knowing anything about my situation, they also know NOTHING about marriage, yet think they have the right to tell me how to live my life.

That's hardly fair now is it?

Let he who is without sin cast the first stone eh?

 

[Arel]

But I'm not. God hasn't told me not to use birth control. I'm quite sure God has my personal interest at heart.

Sure, maybe He hasn't told you...or maybe He has, and you just didn't hear the REAL thing He said. He might have said no, but your own will counteracted that. It's entirely possible.

On top of not knowing anything about my situation, they also know NOTHING about marriage

I have to be married to know something about marriage?

yet think they have the right to tell me how to live my life.

Hm. Funny that you say that. I don't remember either myself, Mahanis, or Hollie telling you how to live your life.

 

[Mahanis]

Well, if you say it has relevance, you're saying that only parts of it do. If you believe that it is God's Word, and it is infallible, then I don't see how you can dismiss the Law like that. For one thing, God does not change.

And yes, you are a sinner. We all are. We just strive to do better...

Now, as to birth control for health reasons, I can completely understand that. Birth control for keeping from having children, that I am against.

 

[lil-rush]

My hands are empty -so amazingly empty- of stones right now.

I would love, love, LOVE if Christians could learn the difference between undue judgement and correction.

I am well aware that I sin, and if someone sees me doing something wrong, I'll take correction. It will wound my pride, no doubt, but I will not turn around and say "he who is without sins..." or any of those other verses commonly used by Christians in order to keep people from correcting them when they are wrong.

WAKE UP all you Christians and realize you are not perfect and are in need of correction! Stop being so easily wounded due to an inflated pride and accept that maybe, just maybe, when someone is telling you something is wrong they are not condemning you, but correcting you.

 

[lil-rush]

Now, as to birth control for health reasons, I can completely understand that. Birth control for keeping from having children, that I am against.

agreed... well unless the health reasons are something like reducing acne or something of the sort.

 

[iraasuup]

*sigh*

Again all my posts have been taken out of context, as have many of the scriptures provided to support arguments.

Honestly, I do not care what other people choose to do, that is their own choice, it's what is right for them and their situation.

My choice is right for my husband and I. We searched the facts, we prayed, we say medical professionals, I even worked in medical environment awhile and had to LEARN facts about this topic for work.

I do KNOW what I am talking about.

In my opinion, yes until you are married you simply have no understanding of what it is like. How can you possibly? To assume so is just ignorant.

Every married couple deals with issues that single people would simply NEVER comprehend. You really can't know what it is like to be married and all it entails until you actually are in that situation.

Now, I have a question for everyone else (since I'm the only one with a differing opinion here).

Let's paint a scenario okay?

If you were to get married, and both you and your spouse decide you don't want children right away. You discuss it, and decide you want to get used to living with each other, being married, and make sure you are ready in every way (financially, spiritually, emotionally etc etc) before you have children. What would you do to prevent from falling pregnant until you ARE ready. You can't honestly expect me to believe you would abstain completely until you're in a position to have children?