My fiance doesn't believe in the Trinity
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Hi Beaver750,
You are so right about 1 John 5:7, it was added by zealots. I believe in the trinity but I think we miss the point of what the Holy Spirit is. Our finite brains can't really fathom being everywhere at once. By labeling the HS as a person, we bring it into our mindset. I can't get my head around the fact that God has always existed. Everything in my observation has a beginning and an end. So our perception of the HS, being limited, is not a point of salvation. I say nobody really understands the HS.
What is a point of salvation, is the divinity of Jesus. Like it says in the first chapter of John, the pre-incarnate Word was made flesh and dwelt among us. Quit calling your fiance a non-Christian. She may be where she is by divine order, so you both can search the scriptures together and combine your beliefs.
You are so right about 1 John 5:7, it was added by zealots. I believe in the trinity but I think we miss the point of what the Holy Spirit is. Our finite brains can't really fathom being everywhere at once. By labeling the HS as a person, we bring it into our mindset. I can't get my head around the fact that God has always existed. Everything in my observation has a beginning and an end. So our perception of the HS, being limited, is not a point of salvation. I say nobody really understands the HS.
What is a point of salvation, is the divinity of Jesus. Like it says in the first chapter of John, the pre-incarnate Word was made flesh and dwelt among us. Quit calling your fiance a non-Christian. She may be where she is by divine order, so you both can search the scriptures together and combine your beliefs.
She believes in "the trinity", she just has a different concept of the trinity than other Christians do.
1.) Does she believe in a Heavenly Father, the Supreme God (the one we worship)?
2.) Does she accept Jesus Christ as the only begotten (look this word up) Son of God and saviour of the world? Does she believe we worship our Heavenly Father THROUGH His Son Jesus Christ?
3.) Does she believe in the Holy Spirit, our constant companion and the revealer of truth?
If she answers "yes" to all 3 (which I believe she will), then she is absolutely a Christian. The problem lies with understanding if Heavenly Father/Jesus Christ/Holy Spirit are one entity or three separate entities (but united in purpose).
I happen to think she's right honestly. Christ "prayed to himself"... No, he was talking to His Father in Heaven, the Supreme God. When Christ asked "Father, why hast thou forsaken me?", it's not that Jesus Christ has multiple personality disorder and forgot He is somehow His own begotten Son/Father... Heavenly Fathered needed to separate Himself spiritually from Jesus Christ during that time (this is an entirely different discussion however). When Mary appears to "the gardener" (it was really Jesus), Jesus told her "touch me not for I have not yet ascended to the Father." If Jesus is also Heavenly Father, He is basically saying, "Touch me not, for I have not ascended to myself." I'll repeat, Jesus Christ DOES NOT have multiple personality disorder.
Now then, the passages you probably read to her about how Christ and God are "one" are not literal but metaphorical. When a husband and wife "become one", do they literally turn into a hermaphrodite (being both male and female)? Obviously not... they are spiritually one... one in purpose... but they are still two physiologically separate entities. Similarly, Heavenly Father, Jesus Christ, and the Holy Spirit are 3 separate entities, but united spiritually and in purpose. "No one can come to the Father but through me..." This is why we honor all things of God through His only begotten Son Jesus Christ.
At the end of the day, you probably won't accept hers or my belief of the concept of the trinity, BUT where we probably DO NOT disagree is the function of each. God won't hold you or her accountable for not KNOWING which belief is correct provided both of you are seeking the truth (whatever that truth may be). God knows our hearts and only asks we do our best with what we are given. If she (or you) are wrong on a concept, but genuinely seeking His truth and wisdom, I wouldn't worry or stress about it.
1.) Does she believe in a Heavenly Father, the Supreme God (the one we worship)?
2.) Does she accept Jesus Christ as the only begotten (look this word up) Son of God and saviour of the world? Does she believe we worship our Heavenly Father THROUGH His Son Jesus Christ?
3.) Does she believe in the Holy Spirit, our constant companion and the revealer of truth?
If she answers "yes" to all 3 (which I believe she will), then she is absolutely a Christian. The problem lies with understanding if Heavenly Father/Jesus Christ/Holy Spirit are one entity or three separate entities (but united in purpose).
I happen to think she's right honestly. Christ "prayed to himself"... No, he was talking to His Father in Heaven, the Supreme God. When Christ asked "Father, why hast thou forsaken me?", it's not that Jesus Christ has multiple personality disorder and forgot He is somehow His own begotten Son/Father... Heavenly Fathered needed to separate Himself spiritually from Jesus Christ during that time (this is an entirely different discussion however). When Mary appears to "the gardener" (it was really Jesus), Jesus told her "touch me not for I have not yet ascended to the Father." If Jesus is also Heavenly Father, He is basically saying, "Touch me not, for I have not ascended to myself." I'll repeat, Jesus Christ DOES NOT have multiple personality disorder.
Now then, the passages you probably read to her about how Christ and God are "one" are not literal but metaphorical. When a husband and wife "become one", do they literally turn into a hermaphrodite (being both male and female)? Obviously not... they are spiritually one... one in purpose... but they are still two physiologically separate entities. Similarly, Heavenly Father, Jesus Christ, and the Holy Spirit are 3 separate entities, but united spiritually and in purpose. "No one can come to the Father but through me..." This is why we honor all things of God through His only begotten Son Jesus Christ.
At the end of the day, you probably won't accept hers or my belief of the concept of the trinity, BUT where we probably DO NOT disagree is the function of each. God won't hold you or her accountable for not KNOWING which belief is correct provided both of you are seeking the truth (whatever that truth may be). God knows our hearts and only asks we do our best with what we are given. If she (or you) are wrong on a concept, but genuinely seeking His truth and wisdom, I wouldn't worry or stress about it.
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It depends on how someone defines the "trinity" really. I believe in God, Jesus Christ, and the Holy Spirit but you are correct, I think they are separate entities, united in purpose. They are metaphorically "one", just as a husband and wife are metaphorically "one" (not literally).
I don't really see how it's a big deal either way though. As long as we all agree on the functions of each (God/Jesus/Spirit), there is nothing to fret over. There will be some arrogant "Christians" who will want to take your "Christianity card" because you don't believe exactly what THEY believe, but at the end of the day, their opinion doesn't really matter when we have the word of God to go off of.
I don't really see how it's a big deal either way though. As long as we all agree on the functions of each (God/Jesus/Spirit), there is nothing to fret over. There will be some arrogant "Christians" who will want to take your "Christianity card" because you don't believe exactly what THEY believe, but at the end of the day, their opinion doesn't really matter when we have the word of God to go off of.
There are many verses which teach what a person is to DO once they ARE SAVED. He that endures to the end shall be Saved. He/She that obeys Jesus will be Saved. He that is baptized will be Saved, and many other like verses. But there is only one THING that Actually Saves a person, and that is belief in Jesus Christ, which she does. Therefore not a Salvation issue. Is she not Saved? Or do you think because she does not believe 1)Father 2)Son and 3)Holy Ghost that she is no longer SAVED? If so, where is that written?
A person can be Saved, and not know one verse in Scriptures? A person can be Saved and not understand one verse in Scriptures. What Gets a person Saved, is not the Word of God, not the belief in the Trinity, not the belief in Rapture, not the pre-trib belief, or midtrib, or post-trib beliefs. What SAVES a person is when they believe that Jesus Christ is the Son of God and died and was risen again, they repent of their sins, and accept Him into that persons life. THAT is being SAVED.
Rom 10:9 That if thou shalt confess with thy mouth the Lord Jesus, and shalt believe in thine heart that God hath raised him from the dead, thou shalt be saved.
i understand she does not believe in the Trinity, are you saying she does not believe the above verse? If she does not believe that God raised Jesus Christ from the dead, that that would be indeed a Salvation issue.
Clear addition? How so?
What then God makes mistakes? Did God allow I John 5:7 to be in the Word of God for over 400+ years? Why didn't God remove it if it were not TRUE? If then I John 5:7 is not suppose to be there, then the following Scripture is a LIE.
Ti_3:16 All scripture is given by inspiration of God, and is profitable for doctrine, for reproof, for correction, for instruction in righteousness:
So the Word of God teaches that ALL Scriptures are given by inspiration of God, but this generation does not believe that, they believe that MOST Scriptures are given by inspiration of God, because if I John 5:7 which is indeed a verse in the Word of God, is not suppose to be there, then ALL Scriptures can't be correct?
Believe the Word of God and what it teaches and not what men teach should be in the Word of God or not in the Word of God.
chick.com/ask/articles/1john57.asp
i never said stop talking to her about it, but you should not push it on her. If she wants to talk about it, then by all means talk with her about it, you have said your piece concerning it right, what more can you say to her that will not be repeating what you have already told her?
my Mom was sleeping with her boyfriend. i invited her over to my house to have a talk with her, i told her that if she continued to have a sexual relationship with him, that she will be judged a fornicator and will not enter into Heaven. i said this once to her, and never said it again, she knows full well where i stand on the matter, and i need not continue to try to convince her that it is TRUE. i told her the TRUTH, and God will have others tell her that same TRUTH. And it will be God drawing her closer to God that get her to understand the TRUTH.
You have told her the TRUTH, If God deems it important, (We know that YOU do), He will cause others to tell her too. Now when, i say when, and not "IF". When she starts to see the TRUTH of it, she may very well come to you and ask again what you believe on the matter. Pray for her.
Amen, He could very well use you if He so chooses to do so. But you have to understand something. Why is a prophet/ess not a prophet/ess in his/her own town? Because they KNOW him/her. They know their parents, the things that they have done, or didn't do, who their brothers and sisters are, and the such. YOU are too close to her. She KNOWS you, she knows the evil things that you have done, she knows what you are like when you are angry, sad, happy, etc... She KNOWS you.
i do not know how many times, and it is very many, that i will say something to one of my family members, and they will argue with me tooth and nail, but someone else years later tells them the exact same thing i said, that is who they believe.
Here is one of many, and i mean MANY examples. One day my brother was convinced that drinking any form of alcohol was evil and against God. i told him that Jesus made wine, and other things i told him as well, he argued with me on those matters. that alcohol was merely grape juice, he said, and then i told him that fermented alcohol existed 2,000 years prior to even Jesus walking the planet. Anyways, he could not hear anything i said. Years later he then goes on to tell me that such and such at his Church told him how alcohol was actually wine, and that Jesus actually made wine. i told him the exact same things that man at his Church told him, but him he heard and me he did not hear. Even to this very day he gives that man at his Church for correcting his error in thinking concerning alcohol. Even though i told him the exact same things that man did a couple years previous. It's like they do not even recall me even mentioning such things. He can't even recall having the argument with me about alcohol two years ago. So i say this THING, and they do not believe, but let a person say that same THING that they believe full hardheartedly. So i have learned along time ago, that i can never reach those that KNOW me, God will have to use others to reach those that KNOW me.
Likewise, you love your wife and desire for her to know that TRUTH that you know is TRUE, But you can talk until your blue in the face, and she will not hear you, She KNOWS you. That is why i said let it go, and let God. As much as you would like to be the one that reaches her, and to help her understand that particular Truth, odds are, you are not the one that is going to do that. And one day she will come home and Say "Honey, did you know there is actually a Father, Jesus the Son, and the Holy Ghost, and they three make ONE God and that is the Trinity, such and such told me all about it" And you are going to look at her as if dumbfounded, because you have already told her all those things, and she is acting like this is the first time she has ever heard of it before. Wait and see.
Brother it is not like that at all, i do not wish for you to shut up, i merely would like for you to try to understand that it is not likely that it will be YOU that convinces her of the TRUTH of the Trinity. If you know this, then you won't be so bent on being the one to try to help her understand that TRUTH, and even though God could very well use you, it is not very likely that he will do so, because she KNOWS you. it will be a stranger that God puts in her path that help her to see the TRUTH of the Trinity, and more than likely NOT YOU. sorry.
lol, you are not toxic. Pray that God puts someone in her path that will lead her to the TRUTH of the TRINITY.
If i were you though, i would look at your own self. Why is it so important to you, for YOU to be the one that teaches her about the Trinity. Why are you so concerned about it? So you are concentrating on her, that she does not know this or that, but concentrate on YOU now, why are YOU so bent on trying to help her believe the Trinity? Are you hurt that she does not believe you? You are her husband, and she should not doubt you, is that correct? Do you have a need to be RIGHT in her eyes? i don't know these things about you, but you should take a look at yourself and analyze your own self as to the WHY you are acting as you are, concerning her not knowing the Truth concerning the Trinity and her not accepting it from you.
If it is any consolation to you, would it help you to know that she will indeed one day believe in the Trinity?
^i^
††† In His Holy and Precious Name, Jesus Christ †††
DiscipleDave
Do you believe All Scriptures are inspired by God or not believe that verse? Apparently if you think that I John 5:7 should not be in the Word of God, then you must not think that THAT verse is inspired by God correct?
People, believe the Word of God and every verse in it. Do not hearken to any person, group, or belief that teaches otherwise.
On this planet, fathom her like AIR.
God the Father has always existed, until God created a physical being made of matter, which is Jesus Christ the first begotten of the Father, Then the Father made the Holy Ghost, which is spiritual and not matter at all. Jesus (physical) and the Holy Ghost (Spirit) worked together to create the universe and all things in it, which includes Heaven and the inhabitants of Heaven, the Angels.
The Throne of God is thus: In the center part of the Throne is the Father, PURE HOLY LIGHT, to the right of the Father on the same Throne sits Jesus Christ the Fathers firstborn Son. To the left of the Father sits His second born the Holy Ghost. These three (separate entities) all sit on the same Throne of God. All three are GOD.
God can reveal to whom God will reveal a thing.
There is a day coming, and it will be ONLY on that Day, that will dertermine who is and who is not Christian. And that day is the Day that the Book of Life is opened, and if your name is written therein and has not been blotted out, then and ONLY then are you judged a Christian.
Just because i claim with my mouth today that i am a Christian, i am Saved, i am Heaven bound, does not guarantee that Tomorrow, i will be in the same good standing. i can choose to deny Christ tomorrow. i can choose not to forgive someone tomorrow, i can choose to hate someone tomorrow, i can become an atheist tomorrow if something were to happen that causes me to doubt that a God even exists. ONLY one day that determines who is Saved and who is not Saved. Not even the time of death determines that, only on that Day that we Christians call the Rapture will a person be Saved or condemned. (save the 144,000 which are sealed, these will neither be Saved nor condemned)
^i^
††† In His Holy and Precious Name, Jesus Christ †††
DiscipleDave
People, believe the Word of God and every verse in it. Do not hearken to any person, group, or belief that teaches otherwise.
On this planet, fathom her like AIR.
God the Father has always existed, until God created a physical being made of matter, which is Jesus Christ the first begotten of the Father, Then the Father made the Holy Ghost, which is spiritual and not matter at all. Jesus (physical) and the Holy Ghost (Spirit) worked together to create the universe and all things in it, which includes Heaven and the inhabitants of Heaven, the Angels.
The Throne of God is thus: In the center part of the Throne is the Father, PURE HOLY LIGHT, to the right of the Father on the same Throne sits Jesus Christ the Fathers firstborn Son. To the left of the Father sits His second born the Holy Ghost. These three (separate entities) all sit on the same Throne of God. All three are GOD.
God can reveal to whom God will reveal a thing.
What is a point of salvation, is the divinity of Jesus. Like it says in the first chapter of John, the pre-incarnate Word was made flesh and dwelt among us. Quit calling your fiance a non-Christian. She may be where she is by divine order, so you both can search the scriptures together and combine your beliefs.
Just because i claim with my mouth today that i am a Christian, i am Saved, i am Heaven bound, does not guarantee that Tomorrow, i will be in the same good standing. i can choose to deny Christ tomorrow. i can choose not to forgive someone tomorrow, i can choose to hate someone tomorrow, i can become an atheist tomorrow if something were to happen that causes me to doubt that a God even exists. ONLY one day that determines who is Saved and who is not Saved. Not even the time of death determines that, only on that Day that we Christians call the Rapture will a person be Saved or condemned. (save the 144,000 which are sealed, these will neither be Saved nor condemned)
^i^
††† In His Holy and Precious Name, Jesus Christ †††
DiscipleDave
I don't know myself but I have heard that people can be married who are different religions. Maybe you should accept her how she is. After all, you did know this about her before you married. It may be nearly impossible for you to get her to change her believes. Even if she does she would have to make the decision on her own. Remember free will. Maybe you should get counseling on how to deal with the difference.
P
If you want to try again to explain it to her, tell it to her this way. John 1: 1 - 3 In the beginning was the word , and the Word was with God. and the Word was God. 2. The same was in the beginning with God. 3. All things were made by him; and without him was anything made that was made.
Genesis; 1: 1-3 In the beginning God created the heaven and the earth. 2And the earth was without form, and void'; and darkness was upon the face of the deep. And the Spirit of the God moved upon the face of the waters. 3. God said, Let there be light: and there was light.
Verse 3. And God Said ( God is the mind and the Father), Let there be light (Jesus is the word and the son), And the Holy Spirit does the work.
When God speaks, that is Jesus.
John 1: 14 says The word was made flesh and dwelt among us.
John 12: 49 For I have not spoken of myself; but the Father which sent me, he gave me a commandment, what I should say, and what I should speak.
John 7: 16 Jesus answered My teaching is not my own. It comes from the one who sent me.
Jesus only said what the Father told him, because God is the mind, Jesus is the word, and the Holy Spirit does the work.
Try that, if she don't get it that's ok. You can't save her, only she can do that. But you can still marry her and love her.
f
Genesis; 1: 1-3 In the beginning God created the heaven and the earth. 2And the earth was without form, and void'; and darkness was upon the face of the deep. And the Spirit of the God moved upon the face of the waters. 3. God said, Let there be light: and there was light.
Verse 3. And God Said ( God is the mind and the Father), Let there be light (Jesus is the word and the son), And the Holy Spirit does the work.
When God speaks, that is Jesus.
John 1: 14 says The word was made flesh and dwelt among us.
John 12: 49 For I have not spoken of myself; but the Father which sent me, he gave me a commandment, what I should say, and what I should speak.
John 7: 16 Jesus answered My teaching is not my own. It comes from the one who sent me.
Jesus only said what the Father told him, because God is the mind, Jesus is the word, and the Holy Spirit does the work.
Try that, if she don't get it that's ok. You can't save her, only she can do that. But you can still marry her and love her.
f
This passage of scripture proves that Yeshua is the FATHER and the FATHER is dwelling inside Yeshua
John 14:
8 Philip said to him, "Lord, show us the Father, and it will be enough for us."
9 Yeshua replied to him, "Have I been with you so long without your knowing me, Philip? Whoever has seen me has seen the Father; so how can you say, `Show us the Father'?
10 Don't you believe that I am united with the Father, and the Father united with me? What I am telling you, [[I am not saying on my own initiative; the Father living in me is doing his own works. ]]
verse also coincides with John 1 [[Yeshua is the literal spoken WORD of Yahweh]]
the best verse to prove Yeshua and Yahweh [the Father] are ONE and the SAME:
Colossians 1:
15 He [YESHUA] is the visible image of the invisible God.
this verse basically states: if you could see the INVISIBLE GOD, it looks EXACTLY as Yeshua the VISIBLE GOD, because they are the SAME PERSON [just at times God is invisible and other times visible]...
John 14:
8 Philip said to him, "Lord, show us the Father, and it will be enough for us."
9 Yeshua replied to him, "Have I been with you so long without your knowing me, Philip? Whoever has seen me has seen the Father; so how can you say, `Show us the Father'?
10 Don't you believe that I am united with the Father, and the Father united with me? What I am telling you, [[I am not saying on my own initiative; the Father living in me is doing his own works. ]]
verse also coincides with John 1 [[Yeshua is the literal spoken WORD of Yahweh]]
the best verse to prove Yeshua and Yahweh [the Father] are ONE and the SAME:
Colossians 1:
15 He [YESHUA] is the visible image of the invisible God.
this verse basically states: if you could see the INVISIBLE GOD, it looks EXACTLY as Yeshua the VISIBLE GOD, because they are the SAME PERSON [just at times God is invisible and other times visible]...
Jesus is chosen by the Father to be the firstborn Son. Luke 9:35. This information was hidden from us by the Textus Receptus/King James Bible.
The firstborn Son concept follows the examples of Shem, Abram, Isaac and Jacob.
All were not born first but were chosen by God.
I believe in God the Father and the archangels are also eternal while angels are created.
Archangels (Jude) are called Princes in Daniel 10 and 12.
Jesus is the Prince of princes in Daniel 8.
Jude changed the title to archangels because he believed in monotheism which allows for 2 to be 1 in Hebrew (the word is Echad).
In 1 Corinthians 2, the Spirit of God is compared to the spirit of a man.
A man's spirit is not a another person.
This chapter continues implying the mind of Christ the same as the Spirit of God.
Paul acknowledges the Father and the Son (Paul never calls the Son as God, always Lord and Christ.) in the openings in all of his letters but the Spirit is not acknowledged until the body of the letter and some of the closings (2 Cor. and Titus).
The firstborn Son concept follows the examples of Shem, Abram, Isaac and Jacob.
All were not born first but were chosen by God.
I believe in God the Father and the archangels are also eternal while angels are created.
Archangels (Jude) are called Princes in Daniel 10 and 12.
Jesus is the Prince of princes in Daniel 8.
Jude changed the title to archangels because he believed in monotheism which allows for 2 to be 1 in Hebrew (the word is Echad).
In 1 Corinthians 2, the Spirit of God is compared to the spirit of a man.
A man's spirit is not a another person.
This chapter continues implying the mind of Christ the same as the Spirit of God.
Paul acknowledges the Father and the Son (Paul never calls the Son as God, always Lord and Christ.) in the openings in all of his letters but the Spirit is not acknowledged until the body of the letter and some of the closings (2 Cor. and Titus).
The 3 that bear witness (Father, Son and Holy Spirit) is in 1 John 5:17 of the King James (From the received text, Latin Textus Receptus). This phrase is not in modern translations that are from the earliest known manuscripts. Conclusion: This phrase was added by Trinitarians. My opinion, the phrase following (3 are of one accord, water, blood, Spirit). Trinitarians added their phrase because someone claimed the Spirit is not a person as water and blood are not persons.