question about submission
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Deuteronomy 22:28-29“If a man meets a virgin who is not betrothed, and seizes her and lies with her, and they are found, then the man who lay with her shall give to the father of the young woman fifty shekels of silver, and she shall be his wife, because he has violated her. He may not divorce her all his days."
I suppose a woman who perhaps loved someone else would be tied to her rapist for her entire life.
It seems sad to me... but of course I don't want to make anyone feel stupid.
I suppose a woman who perhaps loved someone else would be tied to her rapist for her entire life.
It seems sad to me... but of course I don't want to make anyone feel stupid.
). Prolly about a hundred bucks in todays currency (or sumpin' like that). Furthermore, whether you gals like it or not, let it be known that I wear the pants in MY house ! They might be my wife's pants ... but I wear them <a lil' humour break ... I hope, I hope, I hope ..
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I'll have you know that 50 shekels of silver was a lot of money back in the day (I think ). Prolly about a hundred bucks in todays currency (or sumpin' like that). Furthermore, whether you gals like it or not, let it be known that I wear the pants in MY house ! They might be my wife's pants ... but I wear them
). Prolly about a hundred bucks in todays currency (or sumpin' like that). Furthermore, whether you gals like it or not, let it be known that I wear the pants in MY house ! They might be my wife's pants ... but I wear them I'm not afraid of a woman who is independent and afraid to voice her opinions. But if she's too opinionated and outspoken, I may find her annoying. But I'd find men who are the same way annoying as well.
If a woman is too independent, she doesn't need to get married. The same is true for men. If you don't have any need for a partner, why marry at all?
I mentioned Indonesia. My wife is from there. Certain regions of Indonesia are predominantly Christian, and my wife is from a people-group that is predominantly Lutheran. The Islam if Indonesia isn't like the Islam of the middle east either. They are laid back about it, and women work in the workplace and don't generally consider themselves to be oppressed based on my years of interaction with Indonesian coworkers.
I also don't appreciate your insulting other countries. I lived in Indonesia for many years, and I love the country and it's people. I don't like it when you post something and certain other posters make ethnocentric comments ad insinuate that India is a backward country or insult India in some way. I've never been there, but I don't think at is an appropriate thing to do.
This was probably around 2000 or so, but I had a conversation with an Indian businessman in Indonesia and he was lamenting that though there was so much talent in India, the country had not developed as well as Indonesia with its infrastructure, water, sewage, etc. I never encountered piles of dung in the street in Jakarta. The UN Human Development Report and Inequality-Adjusted Human Development Index both rank Indonesia well above India.
There are also aspects of Indonesian culture that I really appreciate. I do appreciate the fact that many women embrace being women and highly value caring for the home, even things like cooking, etc. I noticed this about the women I worked with in the office as well from the way they talked about their family life as well as from interacting with friends and in-laws.
It is good if women in a country aren't indoctrinated by feminism, if they aren't made to feel bad if they want to be stay at home moms, or if they aren't programmed to feel uncomfortable when they read scriptures that tell wives to submit to their husbands.
It could be. He could also have a rebellious wife who needs instruction in this area. The topic rarely comes up in my marriage, at least as it relates to the two of us. A husband is to follow the example of Christ who washes the bride with the water of the word. No aspect of the word of God should be off topic for married couples to discuss.
If a woman is too independent, she doesn't need to get married. The same is true for men. If you don't have any need for a partner, why marry at all?
I mentioned Indonesia. My wife is from there. Certain regions of Indonesia are predominantly Christian, and my wife is from a people-group that is predominantly Lutheran. The Islam if Indonesia isn't like the Islam of the middle east either. They are laid back about it, and women work in the workplace and don't generally consider themselves to be oppressed based on my years of interaction with Indonesian coworkers.
I also don't appreciate your insulting other countries. I lived in Indonesia for many years, and I love the country and it's people. I don't like it when you post something and certain other posters make ethnocentric comments ad insinuate that India is a backward country or insult India in some way. I've never been there, but I don't think at is an appropriate thing to do.
This was probably around 2000 or so, but I had a conversation with an Indian businessman in Indonesia and he was lamenting that though there was so much talent in India, the country had not developed as well as Indonesia with its infrastructure, water, sewage, etc. I never encountered piles of dung in the street in Jakarta. The UN Human Development Report and Inequality-Adjusted Human Development Index both rank Indonesia well above India.
There are also aspects of Indonesian culture that I really appreciate. I do appreciate the fact that many women embrace being women and highly value caring for the home, even things like cooking, etc. I noticed this about the women I worked with in the office as well from the way they talked about their family life as well as from interacting with friends and in-laws.
It is good if women in a country aren't indoctrinated by feminism, if they aren't made to feel bad if they want to be stay at home moms, or if they aren't programmed to feel uncomfortable when they read scriptures that tell wives to submit to their husbands.
It could be. He could also have a rebellious wife who needs instruction in this area. The topic rarely comes up in my marriage, at least as it relates to the two of us. A husband is to follow the example of Christ who washes the bride with the water of the word. No aspect of the word of God should be off topic for married couples to discuss.
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So let's imagine that I claim that the only advantages to being male were you're abilities to procreate and make a lot of money.
Not only would this boil men down to utilitarian purposes, but JESUS fits neither of those categories.
I'm not a man and I can list for you SEVERAL ways that men are necessary and advantageous to God and the rest of God's creation.
It's interesting that you can only find two for women...both utilitarian in nature....and utilitarian in serving men.
Not only would this boil men down to utilitarian purposes, but JESUS fits neither of those categories.
I'm not a man and I can list for you SEVERAL ways that men are necessary and advantageous to God and the rest of God's creation.
It's interesting that you can only find two for women...both utilitarian in nature....and utilitarian in serving men.
Why is a woman finding fulfillment as a other something that is 'utilitarian in serving men'. That's a skewed way of interpreting my statements. Women tend to be nurturing and have many other positive traits. I can't tell you what it is like to be a woman and to enjoy having those traits because I'm male. I mentioned a few positive things about women. There is no reason to turn that into a personal attack for me not mentioning more of them or not mentioned ones that are totally unrelated to men.
I can think of various advantages of being a man. I am one. I could also point to various inventions throughout history and that sort of thing. You could also think of various advantages to being male. Why don't you list several advantages to being female, instead of getting on my case for mentioning few of them?
I can think of various advantages of being a man. I am one. I could also point to various inventions throughout history and that sort of thing. You could also think of various advantages to being male. Why don't you list several advantages to being female, instead of getting on my case for mentioning few of them?
Thank you for so eloquently making my point.
The only advantages of being female you can think of are in relation to men, and utilitarian in nature. You can't be bothered to consider any others because you're not female. The fact that I point this out is me "attacking" you. I'm not attacking. I'm pointing out what you've said.
It's interesting that in a world that is slightly more than 50% male, you can't be bothered to even consider any other advantages because it doesn't apply to you.
The only advantages of being female you can think of are in relation to men, and utilitarian in nature. You can't be bothered to consider any others because you're not female. The fact that I point this out is me "attacking" you. I'm not attacking. I'm pointing out what you've said.
It's interesting that in a world that is slightly more than 50% male, you can't be bothered to even consider any other advantages because it doesn't apply to you.
Saying a woman finding fulfillment in being a mother is not a male-centered utilitarian approach to the subject. Do you think of motherhood as only a utilitarian function carried out for the sake of men? The problem may well be with your own thinking.
Really, how many things can women do that are uniquely female? Women have two hands. Women have two hands. Men can plant food. Men can plant food. Women can lift things. Men can lift things. Women can go shopping. There aren't that many uniquely female things that only women can do besides issues related to being a wife and mother and possibly certain emotion-related issue, not that I can think of. Spiritually, women in marriages can experience and reveal something of the nature of the church in relation to Christ. If my answer is too utilitarian for you, maybe most of us guys have a bit of a tendency toward utilitarianism to some degree, and that isn't necessarily wrong. I'm not a poet. Why don't you write us a poem about all the advantages of being unique female?
I've asked you to point out some advantages, and you haven't yet. Is your trying to get on my case about my response just a way to dodge answering the question yourself?
Really, how many things can women do that are uniquely female? Women have two hands. Women have two hands. Men can plant food. Men can plant food. Women can lift things. Men can lift things. Women can go shopping. There aren't that many uniquely female things that only women can do besides issues related to being a wife and mother and possibly certain emotion-related issue, not that I can think of. Spiritually, women in marriages can experience and reveal something of the nature of the church in relation to Christ. If my answer is too utilitarian for you, maybe most of us guys have a bit of a tendency toward utilitarianism to some degree, and that isn't necessarily wrong. I'm not a poet. Why don't you write us a poem about all the advantages of being unique female?
I've asked you to point out some advantages, and you haven't yet. Is your trying to get on my case about my response just a way to dodge answering the question yourself?
Sometimes folks choose offense. I choose not to be offended by anything or anyone. I submit to my husband, he makes it easy because he loves me & puts my needs ahead of his. He sometimes grunts and tells eye rolling jokes... I choose no offense because he's just trying to be funny. Imagine living with someone who chooses offense over our every joke, yikes! People need to lighten up & laugh a little. Laugh a LOT! smilings my favorite and no I'm not simple I just choose not to be complicated.
PS side note, just so the women know men do not read minds if you need something ASK! I also can lift heavy things
PS side note, just so the women know men do not read minds if you need something ASK! I also can lift heavy things
G
Mary:
You seem to be quick to mis-read what other people are saying...
presidente simply took a very common-sense approach to your statement -- assuming that by saying "advantages to being a woman", you meant "positive characteristics and abilities of a woman that a man does not possess" ( An 'advantage' that the woman has, that the man does not. ) - and then commented accordingly. The way he stated his first question told you that he was considering those things about a woman that were "different and unique" - things unique to a woman - i.e., that a man does not possess.
He stated that he could only think of a few things that were "different and unique" about women. He also admitted rather openly and honestly that he did not have "a first-hand 'lock' on the knowledge of such" - but [ somewhat ] implied that he depended on his wife and other women to help him understand these things.
Anything you might mention that you thought was an advantage of being a woman -- that could also be applied to a man -- would, by definition, not be an advantage.
Hence: "different and unique"
presidente's thinking is logical.
Then, he asked you to give us your list...
So - by all means - please give us your list of positive attributes and abilities that are unique to a woman - that a man does not posess - that you feel are an advantage to a woman ( simply because she is a woman )...
I'm pretty sure presidente is looking forward to reading your list as much as I am...
( "There are many things that may be considered "unique" to women - how many of them are an advantage to the woman for having that particular "uniqueness" - as compared to the man for not having it?" )
By no means am I saying there are not any --- I am just saying that I believe presidente gave an honest answer...
"Why jump his case for it?"
You seem to be quick to mis-read what other people are saying...
presidente simply took a very common-sense approach to your statement -- assuming that by saying "advantages to being a woman", you meant "positive characteristics and abilities of a woman that a man does not possess" ( An 'advantage' that the woman has, that the man does not. ) - and then commented accordingly. The way he stated his first question told you that he was considering those things about a woman that were "different and unique" - things unique to a woman - i.e., that a man does not possess.
He stated that he could only think of a few things that were "different and unique" about women. He also admitted rather openly and honestly that he did not have "a first-hand 'lock' on the knowledge of such" - but [ somewhat ] implied that he depended on his wife and other women to help him understand these things.
Anything you might mention that you thought was an advantage of being a woman -- that could also be applied to a man -- would, by definition, not be an advantage.
Hence: "different and unique"
presidente's thinking is logical.
Then, he asked you to give us your list...
So - by all means - please give us your list of positive attributes and abilities that are unique to a woman - that a man does not posess - that you feel are an advantage to a woman ( simply because she is a woman )...
I'm pretty sure presidente is looking forward to reading your list as much as I am...
( "There are many things that may be considered "unique" to women - how many of them are an advantage to the woman for having that particular "uniqueness" - as compared to the man for not having it?" )
By no means am I saying there are not any --- I am just saying that I believe presidente gave an honest answer...
"Why jump his case for it?"
G
If you want to make a long list -- stop thinking "man against woman" / "woman against man" and start thinking about them as a team --- somehow, I think you will be able to come up with many more "advantages"...
If this makes no sense to you - then, you have totally missed what I am trying to get across...
If this makes no sense to you - then, you have totally missed what I am trying to get across...
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D
Sorry, I cut that short.
I was just pointing out here the mans submission (to His own head) as the LORD is shown turning a deaf ear to husband prayer due to the mans mistreatment of his own wife (the LORD is shown having her best interest in relation to his treatment of her in mind). So Peter likewise points to husbands (not to the wives) given the husbands seem to be answerable to Him (in relation to how they treat her).
The husbands prayers being hindered seems to be the efffect of his own Head (The Lord) making the husband answerable for treatment of his wife.
So the husband has a Head (unto Whom he should submit) and although He might not be seen the husbands prayers being hindered before Him is a little like seeing Him who is invisible
I was just pointing out here the mans submission (to His own head) as the LORD is shown turning a deaf ear to husband prayer due to the mans mistreatment of his own wife (the LORD is shown having her best interest in relation to his treatment of her in mind). So Peter likewise points to husbands (not to the wives) given the husbands seem to be answerable to Him (in relation to how they treat her).
The husbands prayers being hindered seems to be the efffect of his own Head (The Lord) making the husband answerable for treatment of his wife.
So the husband has a Head (unto Whom he should submit) and although He might not be seen the husbands prayers being hindered before Him is a little like seeing Him who is invisible
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@ Presidente.
I am not insulting any country. I am just stating facts. Indonesia has the world's largest Muslim population, with 88.2% of the population identifying themselves as Muslim (12.7 % of the world's Muslim population)
If you like the culture and stuff, good for you.
Likewise, India is the world's fourth largest economy and among the fastest growing in the world - but it still ranks lower on human indices because of its treatment meted out to women.
It just reiterates my point that no country which mistreats it's women or doesn't endorse equality for it's women truly progresses.
Facts are facts. I have no issues with talking about the truth, whether it is my own country or some other.
HOWEVER, which part of Indonesia your wife comes from, what she believes in etc is not my concern and frankly it should not even come up in discussion.
Does your wife know how you talk of her on the internet? Maybe you should allow her to have her own cc account.
I mean, I am sure you can restrict her timings so she won't come in your way of your time on the internet... but at least let her have her own password, eh?
I am not insulting any country. I am just stating facts. Indonesia has the world's largest Muslim population, with 88.2% of the population identifying themselves as Muslim (12.7 % of the world's Muslim population)
If you like the culture and stuff, good for you.
Likewise, India is the world's fourth largest economy and among the fastest growing in the world - but it still ranks lower on human indices because of its treatment meted out to women.
It just reiterates my point that no country which mistreats it's women or doesn't endorse equality for it's women truly progresses.
Facts are facts. I have no issues with talking about the truth, whether it is my own country or some other.
HOWEVER, which part of Indonesia your wife comes from, what she believes in etc is not my concern and frankly it should not even come up in discussion.
Does your wife know how you talk of her on the internet? Maybe you should allow her to have her own cc account.
I mean, I am sure you can restrict her timings so she won't come in your way of your time on the internet... but at least let her have her own password, eh?
I try not to be dogmatic on this issue, but here are my thoughts on the specifics of Ephesians. Sorry also if this has been discussed already.
I don't think it is saying specifically wives and husbands submit to each other. 19-21 is a general discussion of how the body of Christ is to act - in a general sense it's members are to submit to each other. Before 19-21, Paul has not discussed marital relationship.
In 22-33, he specifically talks about such relationships, presumably to hone in on the specifics of the general discussion in 19-21. It is interesting to me that the comparison between man and wife is along the lines of Christ and the church, and particularly that Paul uses two different words to describe wife > husband, and husband > wife, when he could have used one word, or both words.
For wives, it is 'submit', in the same way the church submits to Christ. For husbands, it is 'love', as Christ loves the church. Now, certainly, these two need to be held together, and you cannot take one and ignore the other. But the language Paul uses IS different, and I'm not sure that he is saying that husbands and wives should relate to each other in mutually identical ways.
I don't think it is saying specifically wives and husbands submit to each other. 19-21 is a general discussion of how the body of Christ is to act - in a general sense it's members are to submit to each other. Before 19-21, Paul has not discussed marital relationship.
In 22-33, he specifically talks about such relationships, presumably to hone in on the specifics of the general discussion in 19-21. It is interesting to me that the comparison between man and wife is along the lines of Christ and the church, and particularly that Paul uses two different words to describe wife > husband, and husband > wife, when he could have used one word, or both words.
For wives, it is 'submit', in the same way the church submits to Christ. For husbands, it is 'love', as Christ loves the church. Now, certainly, these two need to be held together, and you cannot take one and ignore the other. But the language Paul uses IS different, and I'm not sure that he is saying that husbands and wives should relate to each other in mutually identical ways.
A
My father is head of the house but my mother runs the household while my father is out at work. We all know that it is my father who is head in the house and no one questions that. My mother runs the household day to day. My parents are very happily married and are Christian. My mother is not stupid, she went to university and got her degree before she married and thinks I should do the same. They met at university.
The Bible is very clear that a wife submits to her husband. I will gladly submit to my future husband and that is why I will make very sure he is the right man. That is why he will have to work really hard to win me.
Motherhood is so important, it does not make a woman weak or trivial.
Imagine how the World would be if it was all a free for all and we made new rules at a whim. Oh we don't need to it is that already!
The Bible is very clear that a wife submits to her husband. I will gladly submit to my future husband and that is why I will make very sure he is the right man. That is why he will have to work really hard to win me.
Motherhood is so important, it does not make a woman weak or trivial.
Imagine how the World would be if it was all a free for all and we made new rules at a whim. Oh we don't need to it is that already!