Can Islam Coexist with the West?

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Aug 2, 2009
24,644
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#41
Islam has coexisted with the west since 1776 (the birthdate of the America)...

It's just these post 9/11 years that have been a problem. Its said that the terrorists, including Bin Hidin', planned the 9-11 attacks in retaliation for the US keeping troops and bases in Saudi Arabia... and to inspire other muslims to start a holy war against the US. It obviously worked...

Will this "holy war" against the US ever end? Who knows.. Nostradamus predicted a war which would go on for 27 years, in which the leader of the enemy would be killed shortly after it started... Doesn't that sound a little like Bin Laden and this 'endless' war?? Yes, I'm a heretic for reading about Nostradamus 15 years ago when I wasn't even a christian! :p
 
Dec 1, 2014
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#42
Islam cannot exist with anyone or anything non-Islam. It can't exist with Christianity in Life Eternal, it can't exist with Christianity here.
 

VCO

Senior Member
Oct 14, 2013
11,995
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#43
Here is a prophecy about the descendants of Ishmael:

Genesis 25:17-18 (NIV)
[SUP]17 [/SUP] Altogether, Ishmael lived a hundred and thirty-seven years. He breathed his last and died, and he was gathered to his people.
[SUP]18 [/SUP] His descendants settled in the area from Havilah to Shur, near the border of Egypt, as you go toward Asshur. And they lived in hostility toward all their brothers.



Nothing has changed!
 

Markum1972

Senior Member
Mar 25, 2013
1,165
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#44
Islam with sharia laws? No
Law- abiding muslims who believe in Allah but follow western rules? Yes

There are peaceful muslims out there, probably many of them, but the problem is that it's not the peaceful ones that want to change our society to fit their laws, that's the dangerous ones, and they are the ones that are the most eager to get here it seems.
The biggest problem that I have with people that make this claim, is that none of them can prove to me that they have not succumbed to al taqiyya.

Does anyone remember all of the Muslims that claimed to be peaceful in Lebanon less than 30 years ago? Oh yeah... that's right... they killed their so called friends and coworkers in the name of Allah during the takeover.
They did exactly what the Qu'ran commands when it say to deceive for the sake of Allah and pretend to be friendly with the infidels until the time of jihad.
There is nothing peaceful about Islam. There hasn't been in 1300 years of its history. It is the most patiently deceptive religion that has ever existed. Don't be fooled.
 

Markum1972

Senior Member
Mar 25, 2013
1,165
32
48
#45
Islam has coexisted with the west since 1776 (the birthdate of the America)...

It's just these post 9/11 years that have been a problem. Its said that the terrorists, including Bin Hidin', planned the 9-11 attacks in retaliation for the US keeping troops and bases in Saudi Arabia... and to inspire other muslims to start a holy war against the US. It obviously worked...

Will this "holy war" against the US ever end? Who knows.. Nostradamus predicted a war which would go on for 27 years, in which the leader of the enemy would be killed shortly after it started... Doesn't that sound a little like Bin Laden and this 'endless' war?? Yes, I'm a heretic for reading about Nostradamus 15 years ago when I wasn't even a christian! :p
Certainly you cannot mean what you said about Islam not being a problem before 9/11.
Islam has been the largest advocate for...
human trafficking
child and domestic abuse
Christian persecution

I don't think you are a heretic for learning about Nostradamus. I think it even possible that he could have been a servant of God as he claimed to be. It was the scientific community that called him a heretic and claimed he was using astrology and divination. He said that this was not true and that he was speaking to God. It would explain as to how he was able to cure people from the plague since there was never an explanation for that. Don't forget that the people even accused Jesus of using witchcraft as well. I'm not saying for sure that Nostradamus was, but I certainly would also not want to get caught on the end of blasphemy of the Holy Spirit either. So I would rather let God be the judge in that as he is the only one that could truly know outside of speculation.

As far as Islam goes though, you can read about its 1300 years of history to see it for the plague that it is.
 

Yeraza_Bats

Senior Member
Dec 11, 2014
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#46
As far as Islam goes though, you can read about its 1300 years of history to see it for the plague that it is.
Muhammad himself robbed caravans, attacked villages, tortured people for money. Even his death was from a Jewish woman who poisoned him to get back at him for killing her family after conquering her village. Its all in Islamic sources. Not long after Muhammad started his ministry, it was a violent and terrible curse on the earth.
 

Markum1972

Senior Member
Mar 25, 2013
1,165
32
48
#47
Muhammad himself robbed caravans, attacked villages, tortured people for money. Even his death was from a Jewish woman who poisoned him to get back at him for killing her family after conquering her village. Its all in Islamic sources. Not long after Muhammad started his ministry, it was a violent and terrible curse on the earth.
This is true. You can generally tell the motives of a people by the leader that they follow. This is true of all followers of Muhammad as much as it is for those of us that follow Jesus.
 
Jan 5, 2017
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#48
Dude 653, since you are so much mesmerized by so called pseudo-scholars of Islam, pls read following excerpts by reknown non-Muslim Leaders and Thinkers of repute. I bet their testimony shred any contrary opinion on Islam:

[h=1]What non-Muslim scholars said about Islam and
Prophet Muhammed
(peace be upon him)[/h]
[h=2]Nepolean Bonaparte – Quoted in Christian Cherfils BONAPARTE ET ISLAM (PARIS 1914)[/h]“I hope the time is not far off when I shall be able to unite all the wise and educated men of all the countries and establish a uniform regime based on the principles of Qur'an which alone are true and which alone can lead men to happiness.”


[h=2]M.K.Gandhi, YOUNG INDIA, 1924[/h]
"...I became more than ever convinced that it was not the sword that won a place for Islam in those days in the scheme of life. It was the rigid simplicity, the utter self-effacement of the prophet, the scrupulous regard for his pledges, his intense devotion to his friends and followers, his intrepidity, his fearlessness, his absolute trust in God and his own mission. These, and not the sword carried everything before them and surmounted every trouble." YOUNG INDIA, 1924



[h=2]Lamartine - Histoire de la Turquie, Paris 1854, Vol II, pp. 276-77:[/h]
"If greatness of purpose, smallness of means, and astounding results are the three criteria of human genius, who could dare to compare any great man in modern history with Muhammad? The most famous men created arms, laws and empires only. They founded, if anything at all, no more than material powers which often crumbled away before their eyes. This man moved not only armies, legislations, empires, peoples and dynasties, but millions of men in one-third of the then inhabited world; and more than that, he moved the altars, the gods, the religions, the ideas, the beliefs and souls... the forbearance in victory, his ambition, which was entirely devoted to one idea and in no manner striving for an empire; his endless prayers, his mystic conversations with God, his death and his triumph after death; all these attest not to an imposture but to a firm conviction which gave him the power to restore a dogma. This dogma was twofold, the unit of God and the immateriality of God; the former telling what God is, the latter telling what God is not; the one overthrowing false gods with the sword, the other starting an idea with words.
"Philosopher, orator, apostle, legislator, warrior, conqueror of ideas, restorer of rational dogmas, of a cult without images; the founder of twenty terrestrial empires and of one spiritual empire, that is Muhammad. As regards all standards by which human greatness may be measured, we may well ask, is there any man greater than he?"


[h=4]Edward Gibbon and Simon Ocklay - History of the Saracen Empire, London, 1870, p. 54:[/h]
"It is not the propagation but the permanency of his religion that deserves our wonder, the same pure and perfect impression which he engraved at Mecca and Medina is preserved, after the revolutions of twelve centuries by the Indian, the African and the Turkish proselytes of the Koran...The Mahometans have uniformly withstood the temptation of reducing the object of their faith and devotion to a level with the senses and imagination of man. 'I believe in One God and Mahomet the Apostle of God', is the simple and invariable profession of Islam. The intellectual image of the Deity has never been degraded by any visible idol; the honors of the prophet have never transgressed the measure of human virtue, and his living precepts have restrained the gratitude of his disciples within the bounds of reason and religion."



[h=4]Rev. Bosworth Smith, Mohammed and Mohammadanism, London 1874, p. 92:[/h]
"He was Caesar and Pope in one; but he was Pope without Pope's pretensions, Caesar without the legions of Caesar: without a standing army, without a bodyguard, without a palace, without a fixed revenue; if ever any man had the right to say that he ruled by the right divine, it was Mohammed, for he had all the power without its instruments and without its supports."


[h=4]Annie Besant, The Life and Teachings of Muhammad, Madras 1932, p. 4:[/h]
"It is impossible for anyone who studies the life and character of the great Prophet of Arabia, who knows how he taught and how he lived, to feel anything but reverence for that mighty Prophet, one of the great messengers of the Supreme. And although in what I put to you I shall say many things which may be familiar to many, yet I myself feel whenever I re-read them, a new way of admiration, a new sense of reverence for that mighty Arabian teacher."


[h=4]Montgomery Watt, Mohammad at Mecca, Oxford 1953, p. 52:[/h]
"His readiness to undergo persecutions for his beliefs, the high moral character of the men who believed in him and looked up to him as leader, and the greatness of his ultimate achievement – all argue his fundamental integrity. To suppose Muhammad an impostor raises more problems than it solves. Moreover, none of the great figures of history is so poorly appreciated in the West as Muhammad."


[h=4]James A. Michener, 'Islam: The Misunderstood Religion' in Reader's Digest (American Edition), May 1955, pp. 68-70:[/h]
"Muhammad, the inspired man who founded Islam, was born about A.D. 570 into an Arabian tribe that worshipped idols. Orphaned at birth, he was always particularly solicitous of the poor and needy, the widow and the orphan, the slave and the downtrodden. At twenty he was already a successful businessman, and soon became director of camel caravans for a wealthy widow. When he reached twenty-five, his employer, recognizing his merit, proposed marriage. Even though she was fifteen years older, he married her, and as long as she lived, remained a devoted husband.
"Like almost every major prophet before him, Muhammad fought shy of serving as the transmitter of God's word, sensing his own inadequacy. But the angel commanded 'Read'. So far as we know, Muhammad was unable to read or write, but he began to dictate those inspired words which would soon revolutionize a large segment of the earth: "There is one God."


"In all things Muhammad was profoundly practical. When his beloved son Ibrahim died, an eclipse occurred, and rumors of God's personal condolence quickly arose. Whereupon Muhammad is said to have announced, 'An eclipse is a phenomenon of nature. It is foolish to attribute such things to the death or birth of a human-being.'"At Muhammad's own death an attempt was made to deify him, but the man who was to become his administrative successor killed the hysteria with one of the noblest speeches in religious history: 'If there are any among you who worshipped Muhammad, he is dead. But if it is God you worshipped, He lives forever.'"


[h=4]Michael H. Hart, The 100: A Ranking of the Most Influential Persons in History, New York: Hart Publishing Company, Inc. 1978, p. 33:[/h]
"My choice of Muhammad to lead the list of the world's most influential persons may surprise some readers and may be questioned by others, but he was the only man in history who was supremely successful on both the religious and secular level."



[h=4]Sarojini Naidu, the famous Indian poetess says – S. Naidu, Ideals of Islam, Speeches and Writings, Madaras, 1918[/h]
“It was the first religion that preached and practiced democracy; for, in the mosque, when the call for prayer is sounded and worshippers are gathered together, the democracy of Islam is embodied five times a day when the peasant and king kneel side by side and proclaim: 'God Alone is Great'... “


[h=4]Thomas Caryle – Heros and Heros Worship[/h]
“how one man single-handedly, could weld warring tribes and Bedouins into a most powerful and civilized nation in less than two decades?”
“…The lies (Western slander) which well-meaning zeal has heaped round this man (Muhammed) are disgraceful to ourselves only…How one man single-handedly, could weld warring tribes and wandering Bedouins into a most powerful and civilized nation in less than two decades….A silent great soul, one of that who cannot but be earnest. He was to kindle the world; the world’s Maker had ordered so."


[h=4]Stanley Lane-Poole – Table Talk of the Prophet[/h]
“He was the most faithful protector of those he protected, the sweetest and most agreeable in conversation. Those who saw him were suddenly filled with reverence; those who came near him loved him; they who described him would say, "I have never seen his like either before or after." He was of great taciturnity, but when he spoke it was with emphasis and deliberation, and no one could forget what he said...”


[h=4]George Bernard Shaw - The Genuine Islam Vol.No.8, 1936.[/h]
“I believe if a man like him were to assume the dictatorship of the modern world he would succeed in solving its problems in a way that would bring much needed peace and happiness.
I have studied him - the man and in my opinion is far from being an anti–Christ. He must be called the Savior of Humanity.
I have prophesied about the faith of Mohammad that it would be acceptable the Europe of tomorrow as it is beginning to be acceptable to the Europe of today.”
 

Desdichado

Senior Member
Feb 9, 2014
8,768
838
113
#49
"The Mohammedan religion too would have been much more compatible to us than Christianity. Why did it have to be Christianity with its meekness and flabbiness?"

"Had Charles Martel not been victorious at Poitiers [...] then we should in all probability have been converted to Mohammedanism, that cult which glorifies the heroism and which opens up the seventh Heaven to the bold warrior alone. Then the Germanic races would have conquered the world."

[T]he Germans would have become heirs to "a religion that believed in spreading the faith by the sword and in subjugating all nations to that faith. Such a creed was perfectly suited to the German temperament."

Hitler.jpg
 

Desdichado

Senior Member
Feb 9, 2014
8,768
838
113
#50
Note that I do not believe Hitler's words have much merit. The gentleman was clearly mad. A singular manifestation of the Western world's worst tendencies.

But is it not interesting he was attracted to martial ethos and claimed it comparable to the death cult which developed among the Germans?

What's more, he contrasted it with the Christianized West, where Roman Catholics in particular sought to restrain that martial ethos for centuries and channel it to the one area it seemed appropriate- repelling invaders and reclaiming lost territory.
 
K

kaylagrl

Guest
#51
Dude 653, since you are so much mesmerized by so called pseudo-scholars of Islam, pls read following excerpts by reknown non-Muslim Leaders and Thinkers of repute. I bet their testimony shred any contrary opinion on Islam:

What non-Muslim scholars said about Islam and
Prophet Muhammed
(peace be upon him)



Nepolean Bonaparte – Quoted in Christian Cherfils BONAPARTE ET ISLAM (PARIS 1914)

“I hope the time is not far off when I shall be able to unite all the wise and educated men of all the countries and establish a uniform regime based on the principles of Qur'an which alone are true and which alone can lead men to happiness.”


M.K.Gandhi, YOUNG INDIA, 1924

"...I became more than ever convinced that it was not the sword that won a place for Islam in those days in the scheme of life. It was the rigid simplicity, the utter self-effacement of the prophet, the scrupulous regard for his pledges, his intense devotion to his friends and followers, his intrepidity, his fearlessness, his absolute trust in God and his own mission. These, and not the sword carried everything before them and surmounted every trouble." YOUNG INDIA, 1924



Lamartine - Histoire de la Turquie, Paris 1854, Vol II, pp. 276-77:

"If greatness of purpose, smallness of means, and astounding results are the three criteria of human genius, who could dare to compare any great man in modern history with Muhammad? The most famous men created arms, laws and empires only. They founded, if anything at all, no more than material powers which often crumbled away before their eyes. This man moved not only armies, legislations, empires, peoples and dynasties, but millions of men in one-third of the then inhabited world; and more than that, he moved the altars, the gods, the religions, the ideas, the beliefs and souls... the forbearance in victory, his ambition, which was entirely devoted to one idea and in no manner striving for an empire; his endless prayers, his mystic conversations with God, his death and his triumph after death; all these attest not to an imposture but to a firm conviction which gave him the power to restore a dogma. This dogma was twofold, the unit of God and the immateriality of God; the former telling what God is, the latter telling what God is not; the one overthrowing false gods with the sword, the other starting an idea with words.
"Philosopher, orator, apostle, legislator, warrior, conqueror of ideas, restorer of rational dogmas, of a cult without images; the founder of twenty terrestrial empires and of one spiritual empire, that is Muhammad. As regards all standards by which human greatness may be measured, we may well ask, is there any man greater than he?"


Edward Gibbon and Simon Ocklay - History of the Saracen Empire, London, 1870, p. 54:

"It is not the propagation but the permanency of his religion that deserves our wonder, the same pure and perfect impression which he engraved at Mecca and Medina is preserved, after the revolutions of twelve centuries by the Indian, the African and the Turkish proselytes of the Koran...The Mahometans have uniformly withstood the temptation of reducing the object of their faith and devotion to a level with the senses and imagination of man. 'I believe in One God and Mahomet the Apostle of God', is the simple and invariable profession of Islam. The intellectual image of the Deity has never been degraded by any visible idol; the honors of the prophet have never transgressed the measure of human virtue, and his living precepts have restrained the gratitude of his disciples within the bounds of reason and religion."



Rev. Bosworth Smith, Mohammed and Mohammadanism, London 1874, p. 92:

"He was Caesar and Pope in one; but he was Pope without Pope's pretensions, Caesar without the legions of Caesar: without a standing army, without a bodyguard, without a palace, without a fixed revenue; if ever any man had the right to say that he ruled by the right divine, it was Mohammed, for he had all the power without its instruments and without its supports."


Annie Besant, The Life and Teachings of Muhammad, Madras 1932, p. 4:

"It is impossible for anyone who studies the life and character of the great Prophet of Arabia, who knows how he taught and how he lived, to feel anything but reverence for that mighty Prophet, one of the great messengers of the Supreme. And although in what I put to you I shall say many things which may be familiar to many, yet I myself feel whenever I re-read them, a new way of admiration, a new sense of reverence for that mighty Arabian teacher."


Montgomery Watt, Mohammad at Mecca, Oxford 1953, p. 52:

"His readiness to undergo persecutions for his beliefs, the high moral character of the men who believed in him and looked up to him as leader, and the greatness of his ultimate achievement – all argue his fundamental integrity. To suppose Muhammad an impostor raises more problems than it solves. Moreover, none of the great figures of history is so poorly appreciated in the West as Muhammad."


James A. Michener, 'Islam: The Misunderstood Religion' in Reader's Digest (American Edition), May 1955, pp. 68-70:

"Muhammad, the inspired man who founded Islam, was born about A.D. 570 into an Arabian tribe that worshipped idols. Orphaned at birth, he was always particularly solicitous of the poor and needy, the widow and the orphan, the slave and the downtrodden. At twenty he was already a successful businessman, and soon became director of camel caravans for a wealthy widow. When he reached twenty-five, his employer, recognizing his merit, proposed marriage. Even though she was fifteen years older, he married her, and as long as she lived, remained a devoted husband.
"Like almost every major prophet before him, Muhammad fought shy of serving as the transmitter of God's word, sensing his own inadequacy. But the angel commanded 'Read'. So far as we know, Muhammad was unable to read or write, but he began to dictate those inspired words which would soon revolutionize a large segment of the earth: "There is one God."


"In all things Muhammad was profoundly practical. When his beloved son Ibrahim died, an eclipse occurred, and rumors of God's personal condolence quickly arose. Whereupon Muhammad is said to have announced, 'An eclipse is a phenomenon of nature. It is foolish to attribute such things to the death or birth of a human-being.'"At Muhammad's own death an attempt was made to deify him, but the man who was to become his administrative successor killed the hysteria with one of the noblest speeches in religious history: 'If there are any among you who worshipped Muhammad, he is dead. But if it is God you worshipped, He lives forever.'"


Michael H. Hart, The 100: A Ranking of the Most Influential Persons in History, New York: Hart Publishing Company, Inc. 1978, p. 33:

"My choice of Muhammad to lead the list of the world's most influential persons may surprise some readers and may be questioned by others, but he was the only man in history who was supremely successful on both the religious and secular level."



Sarojini Naidu, the famous Indian poetess says – S. Naidu, Ideals of Islam, Speeches and Writings, Madaras, 1918

“It was the first religion that preached and practiced democracy; for, in the mosque, when the call for prayer is sounded and worshippers are gathered together, the democracy of Islam is embodied five times a day when the peasant and king kneel side by side and proclaim: 'God Alone is Great'... “


Thomas Caryle – Heros and Heros Worship

“how one man single-handedly, could weld warring tribes and Bedouins into a most powerful and civilized nation in less than two decades?”
“…The lies (Western slander) which well-meaning zeal has heaped round this man (Muhammed) are disgraceful to ourselves only…How one man single-handedly, could weld warring tribes and wandering Bedouins into a most powerful and civilized nation in less than two decades….A silent great soul, one of that who cannot but be earnest. He was to kindle the world; the world’s Maker had ordered so."


Stanley Lane-Poole – Table Talk of the Prophet

“He was the most faithful protector of those he protected, the sweetest and most agreeable in conversation. Those who saw him were suddenly filled with reverence; those who came near him loved him; they who described him would say, "I have never seen his like either before or after." He was of great taciturnity, but when he spoke it was with emphasis and deliberation, and no one could forget what he said...”


George Bernard Shaw - The Genuine Islam Vol.No.8, 1936.

“I believe if a man like him were to assume the dictatorship of the modern world he would succeed in solving its problems in a way that would bring much needed peace and happiness.
I have studied him - the man and in my opinion is far from being an anti–Christ. He must be called the Savior of Humanity.
I have prophesied about the faith of Mohammad that it would be acceptable the Europe of tomorrow as it is beginning to be acceptable to the Europe of today.”

So the article you copy pasted is from the following site,"Gain Peace Through Islam". So what would you expect them to do but say Muhammed was a wonderful person? This is a Christian site and Islam is at war with Christianity, they do not believe that Christ died and rose again,they don't believe He is Gods son. If you believe Islam is the right way then you need to find a forum that supports your beliefs.
 
K

kaylagrl

Guest
#52
Wow,everyone Im talking to today is getting banned...
 
Dec 12, 2013
46,515
20,402
113
#53
No............it is not compatible with and society that believes in freedom
 

maxwel

Senior Member
Apr 18, 2013
9,526
2,608
113
#56
The biggest problem that I have with people that make this claim, is that none of them can prove to me that they have not succumbed to al taqiyya.

Does anyone remember all of the Muslims that claimed to be peaceful in Lebanon less than 30 years ago? Oh yeah... that's right... they killed their so called friends and coworkers in the name of Allah during the takeover.
They did exactly what the Qu'ran commands when it say to deceive for the sake of Allah and pretend to be friendly with the infidels until the time of jihad.
There is nothing peaceful about Islam. There hasn't been in 1300 years of its history. It is the most patiently deceptive religion that has ever existed. Don't be fooled.
That's a really good point.
Al Taqiyaa should be taken very seriously by non-muslims...
it's an official doctrine that says it's fine, and even appropriate, to LIE in various situations.

I would certainly find it ENTIRELY IMPOSSIBLE to trust any muslim that is academically trained, like a cleric or apologist, who would be fully familiar with Al Taqiyya
You'd be dealing with a person who has literally taken classes on how to lie to infidels.
 

Desdichado

Senior Member
Feb 9, 2014
8,768
838
113
#57
And like Jihad, it is to be employed offensively, not defensively. Very duplicitous.

Michener was right- Muhammad was a very pragmatic man who left a selectively pragmatic legacy.

That's a really good point.
Al Taqiyaa should be taken very seriously by non-muslims...
it's an official doctrine that says it's fine, and even appropriate, to LIE in various situations.

I would certainly find it ENTIRELY IMPOSSIBLE to trust any muslim that is academically trained, like a cleric or apologist, who would be fully familiar with Al Taqiyya
You'd be dealing with a person who has literally taken classes on how to lie to infidels.
 
Feb 28, 2016
11,311
2,973
113
#58
he was no 'gentleman' and yes, pagans love other pagans, and usually
speak quite well about them, they know no other way...
 

Desdichado

Senior Member
Feb 9, 2014
8,768
838
113
#59
Yessir. When I reread it the other day, I regretted my ordinarily charitable wording.

He was a reprobate who didn't deserve to leave this world on his own terms.

he was no 'gentleman' and yes, pagans love other pagans, and usually
speak quite well about them, they know no other way...
 

HeraldtheNews

Well-known member
Apr 26, 2012
1,550
437
83
66
#60
No............it is not compatible with and society that believes in freedom
Concur. freedom and bondage can not co-exist. Jesus and John the Baptist made that clear. Because as James wrote: "Mercy triumphs over judgment."