Cop Not Indicted

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Sep 30, 2014
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I wouldn't go this far. Thugs certainly are a problem nationwide patrolling neighborhoods assaulting, murdering, robbing, extorting, dealing drugs, etc... and murdering each other for territory and gang disputes like flies.

Law enforcement statistics consistently show this to be true. For example, the FBI 2011 National Gang Threat Assessment demonstrates that, on average, "48 percent of violent crime in most jurisdictions" is gang-related.
I'm not saying they don't play a role but are just more " pawns in the game and ignorant to the bigger picture", if we want to end corruption in the U.S, we should nip it at the root..it will never completely cease, but it could be squeezed to a minimum, wouldn't have as many criminals therefore wouldn't need as many cops.. It all relates together.. isolated,(problems) security, (borders) and transparency, (government) what's needed most is honest, intelligent, God fearing men and women in office, we could get some real things accomplished .. Cameras?? Smh...
 
A

AgeofKnowledge

Guest
And in other news a long-time writer for the SPLC (that would be the radical leftist organization that libels traditional Christian family associations as domestic terrorists and sandwiches them between the KKK and Nazis in their publications) named David Ruenzel was murdered by two black males while out walking on a hiking trail working out his next article for the benefit of black people: Police offer reward to find two suspects in the East Bay Regional Park shooting death of a teacher. | abc7news.com

Life truly is ironic at times.
 
C

CRC

Guest
The Bible offers a solution to injustice, corruption, and oppression. It describes a government that God has set up in heaven that will replace the failed political and economic systems that lead to protest. A prophecy about the Ruler of this government says: “He will deliver the poor one crying for help, also the afflicted one and whoever has no helper. From oppression and from violence he will redeem their soul.”—Psalm 72:12, 14. The God of the Bible is real!!! In in own time and his own season he will act to bring blessings beyond imagination!!! But when the Son of Man arrive "will he find this faith in the earth" (Luke 18:8)
 
Sep 30, 2014
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The Bible offers a solution to injustice, corruption, and oppression. It describes a government that God has set up in heaven that will replace the failed political and economic systems that lead to protest. A prophecy about the Ruler of this government says: “He will deliver the poor one crying for help, also the afflicted one and whoever has no helper. From oppression and from violence he will redeem their soul.”—Psalm 72:12, 14. The God of the Bible is real!!! In in own time and his own season he will act to bring blessings beyond imagination!!! But when the Son of Man arrive "will he find this faith in the earth" (Luke 18:8)
True, heaven will be beyond perfect, great, and wonderful... I'm not looking for any of that on earth until Jesus comes back, but decency shouldn't be out of the question. Look at King David, he wasn't perfect but puts our leaders to shame..
 

p_rehbein

Senior Member
Sep 4, 2013
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I agree that the NYC incident is very disturbing............from what I heard, the Grand Jury consisted of 23 people.......and 17 voted one way......while 6 voted the other..........I did not hear how that vote went........

To indict vs. not to indict..........

The difference with this case is the Grand Jury ACTUALLY HAD video of the incident and did not need to rely on witness testimony.........also heard that the argument came down to the difference between a "choke-hold" maneuver vs. a "seat belt" maneuver............weird.......but apparently the seat belt one is suppose to be acceptable while the choke hold is not.......

Either way, I would have voted to send it to trial and let a Judge and/or Jury hear the case and make the decision.

In my opinion, this rush to present such cases to Grand Juries is a case of what I call "The Pilate Syndrome......" In that the DA does not have the courage to make the decision to charge the person, or not charge the person..........so the DA tries to wash his/her hands of any blame by sending it to a Grand Jury.........but, that's just my opinion........so
 
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kennethcadwell

Guest
I agree that the NYC incident is very disturbing............from what I heard, the Grand Jury consisted of 23 people.......and 17 voted one way......while 6 voted the other..........I did not hear how that vote went........

To indict vs. not to indict..........

The difference with this case is the Grand Jury ACTUALLY HAD video of the incident and did not need to rely on witness testimony.........also heard that the argument came down to the difference between a "choke-hold" maneuver vs. a "seat belt" maneuver............weird.......but apparently the seat belt one is suppose to be acceptable while the choke hold is not.......

Either way, I would have voted to send it to trial and let a Judge and/or Jury hear the case and make the decision.

In my opinion, this rush to present such cases to Grand Juries is a case of what I call "The Pilate Syndrome......" In that the DA does not have the courage to make the decision to charge the person, or not charge the person..........so the DA tries to wash his/her hands of any blame by sending it to a Grand Jury.........but, that's just my opinion........so

I seen it mentioned on the news that they decided not to indict this officer as well.
I did not hear about the seat belt maneuver, that was never talked about on the news cast I watched. What they did argue over was it really a misuse of force, because one side was arguing the choke hold maneuver is not illegal. ( Which is true ) But the other side was arguing because even though its not illegal, it was deemed an unethical and not to be used maneuver because of the danger with it in this police unit.
To me if they did deem it unethical and not to be used, then it still classifies as misuse of force. And why did the officer need to apply that choke hold so long when he had help from other officers. He was not alone like in the case of Wilson.

So he used a maneuver that was not to be used, and killed a man in doing it. Still no indictment.
 
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biscuit

Guest
I don't think we are very far from anarchy and martial law in some cities and eventually the country. From what I have been hearing through the grapevine is the federal government have plans it will initiate if chaos occurs.

We are slowly but surely approaching the Tribulation Period.
 
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p_rehbein

Senior Member
Sep 4, 2013
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Nothing new there really...........way back when I was in the Military, there were such plans designed by the Joint Chiefs......we even practiced crowd/riot control..............the standard formation to disburse a crowd was a " V " shaped formation with "fixed bayonets." I wasn't real crazy about it, but mainly because I was assigned the very first position in that formation.........sigh.......... :(

Oh, should say, when the command was given, we would march forward directly into the crowd bayonets at 3/4 height.......or shoulder height at a 1/2 step march..........for those who understand Military jargon..........
 
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Dec 12, 2013
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The reason why there is no record of Jesus ever intervening in a government execution, despite coming to the aid of at least one person whose life was being threatened by a street mob after an accusation (rightly or wrongly) of adultery, is because the Mosaic Law mandated the death penalty within strict guidelines it prescribed which Jesus never once taught was in error.

Those strict guidelines are actually interesting, though most people don't take time to analyze them. For example, Numbers 35:31 specifically distinguishes the capital offense of murder from the almost twenty other offenses punishable by death prohibiting a “ransom for the life of a murderer.” In all other cases a substitution could be made for the death penalty except the crime of murder which was so serious that the death penalty was to be enforced. Only in the case of premeditated murder was there the added stricture of “Do not accept a ransom for the life of a murderer, who deserves to die” (Numbers 35:31).

The word “ransom” is the Hebrew kōp̄er, meaning a “deliverance or a ransom by means of a substitute.” Both Jewish and early Christian communities interpreted this verse in Numbers 35:31 to mean that out of the almost twenty cases calling for capital punishment in the Old Testament, every one of them could have the sanction commuted by an appropriate substitute of money or anything that showed the seriousness of the crime; but in the case of what we today call first-degree murder, there was never to be offered or accepted any substitute or bargaining of any kind: the offender had to pay with his or her life.

Likewise, Paul recognized the justice of the death penalty. When he was brought before the judgment seat of Festus, he said, “For if I be an offender, or have committed any thing worthy of death, I refuse not to die” (Acts 25:11). By this, Paul admitted that there were offenses worthy of death and that the government had the right to administer death in those cases.

He further states in Romans that “But if thou do that which is evil, be afraid; for he beareth not the sword in vain: for he is the minister of God, a revenger to execute wrath upon him that doeth evil” (Romans 13:4).

The Bible doesn't condone the present situation where murderers are housed for life in expensive institutions that innocent citizens are forcibly taxed to pay for who then cause many more murders and create an institutionalized prison gang run environment that prevents a great deal of real reform from ever occurring.

The NT teaches that a murderer can both repent and be saved by God but also executed by the state for the crime of murder. There is no dichotomy.

Some of our liberal affected friends prefer their own modern liberal theological interpretations to what God's Word actually teaches in the original language in historical context so, of course, they can be safely discarded as erroneous.
I totally agree with this as the bible clearly teaches that God uses human governments to work his will and one of the things that is acceptable is the death penalty....those who teach we are to give murders numerous chances and forgive them without punishment are blind for sure......Yes they can repent, trust Jesus and be saved, but that does not alleviate the punishment that is to be meted out by the state!
 
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biscuit

Guest
@ p_rehbein

I am referring to martial law where the federal & state governments will set up intermittent camps to incarcerate so called troublemakers or people they consider a threat to national security. Similar to the situation during WWII with Japanese Americans. Please click on the black x to see DVD cover for movie.





[TABLE]
[TR]
[TD]

[/TD]
[TD]Top 5000


The Siege (1998)

116 min - Action | Crime | Drama - 6 November 1998 (USA)
6.3
Your rating:
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Ratings: 6.3/10 from 51,069 users Metascore: 53/100
Reviews: 273 user | 119 critic | 25 from Metacritic.com


The secret US abduction of a suspected terrorist leads to a wave of terrorist attacks in New York that lead to the declaration of martial law.
Director:

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Writers:

Lawrence Wright (story), Lawrence Wright(screenplay), 2 more credits »
Stars:

Denzel Washington, Bruce Willis, Annette Bening |[/TD]
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kennethcadwell

Guest
I totally agree with this as the bible clearly teaches that God uses human governments to work his will and one of the things that is acceptable is the death penalty....those who teach we are to give murders numerous chances and forgive them without punishment are blind for sure......Yes they can repent, trust Jesus and be saved, but that does not alleviate the punishment that is to be meted out by the state!

Did Jesus put a limitation on how many times to forgive a person, or by His example did He show that their is an unlimited amount of times to forgive a person ? YES

Did Jesus tell us the will of God working in our lives is to go and minister to them ? YES

Could one be kept in prison for the rest of their life, and not be put to death ? YES

Where is love, and forgiveness in the death penalty ? There is none.

Did Jesus say leave vengeance up to Him ? YES

Does the NT teach to obey the laws of the land unless they contradict His ? YES
( If you believe it doesn't, if the man of sin comes in our time go and follow him and take his mark and see what happens. )

In the OT there were stoning and death penalties for sin, in the NT did Jesus show examples to not do that any more ? YES

The Lord Jesus believes in punishment for correction, not for us to usher punishment by death.

Do not judge, or you shall be judged. And the manner you judge, you will be judged by.
If you make a judgment call on ones life like that, then you can expect that same judgment on you.
 
Sep 30, 2014
2,329
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I don't think we are very far from anarchy and martial law in some cities and eventually the country. From what I have been hearing through the grapevine is the federal government have plans it will initiate if chaos occurs.

We are slowly but surely approaching the Tribulation Period.
Jefferson Quotes:

" a republic, if you can keep it "

"The spirit of 1776 is not dead. It has only been slumbering. The body of the American people is substantially republican. But their virtuous feelings have been played upon by some fact with more fiction; they have been the dupes of artful maneuvers, and made for a moment to be willing instruments in forging chains for themselves".



This quote is taken from a speech Nikita Khrushchev made before the U.N. in the early years of the Cold War. "America will fall without a shot being fired. It will fall from within."
 
Dec 18, 2013
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Well I suppose with the recent NY Cop Not Indicted case that I must eat my words on the camera idea. Seems even with video, even video very much public, that an obviously unarmed man, not resisting police and getting ganged up on and strangled to death on camera cannot get even the accountability issue settled, much less the crime issue.

Mike Brown case was dubious enough due to conflicting reports, but this NY case; how is it possible the police can not even be tried and examined and taken to a trial when there is clear video?
 
B

biscuit

Guest
Well I suppose with the recent NY Cop Not Indicted case that I must eat my words on the camera idea. Seems even with video, even video very much public, that an obviously unarmed man, not resisting police and getting ganged up on and strangled to death on camera cannot get even the accountability issue settled, much less the crime issue.

Mike Brown case was dubious enough due to conflicting reports, but this NY case; how is it possible the police can not even be tried and examined and taken to a trial when there is clear video?

I think we are heading toward civil strife (short of a civil war) against the status quo in this country. We saw it in the Middle East (Arab Spring) and I believe we will see some serious unrest across the country very soon. There isn't anything we can do except pray because these are bible prophecies being fulfilled.

"Come up hither" sounds really good to me now. (Revelation 4:1)
 
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AgeofKnowledge

Guest
First of all, there's no dichotomy between a person forgiving someone and a nation's criminal justice system operating rendering your entire argument fallacious.

We do not have to immediately shut down all of our courts and let everyone go free no matter what they've done to continue a life of assaulting, robbing, raping, and murdering innocent people so we can be as forgiving as Jesus taught because that certainly is NOT what Jesus taught.

Secondly, the context of the scriptures you're referring to is that Christians need to be ready to forgive a fellow Christian not just seven times but seventy times seven (Mt 18:21–22 par. Lk 17:4).

Let's answer Kenneth's quiz in context without any logical fallacies:

Q: Did Jesus put a limitation on how many times to forgive a person, or by His example did He show that their is an unlimited amount of times to forgive a person?

A: The question is logically flawed. You'll need to reframe the question so that it doesn't violate the law of non-contradiction (e.g. something cannot be both true and not true at the same time when dealing with the same context). But I'll answer it in the manner I know you intended. Jesus answered Peter's question that one should forgive a brother or sister in Christ seventy times seven. There are many other verses on forgiveness as well; however, they are not in contradiction with legitimate governing authorities executing a murderer for the crime of murder. Read this: Did Jesus Support Capital Punishment? by Andrew Tallman – Bible Study Tips

Q: Did Jesus tell us the will of God working in our lives is to go and minister to them?
A: Yes. Again, there is no dichotomy.

Q: Could one be kept in prison for the rest of their life, and not be put to death?
A: Yes. And, one can be put to death for the crime of murder yielding many benefits to society.

Q: Where is love, and forgiveness in the death penalty?
A: It's in the extra food in the mouths of innocent people's children that aren't being taxed to support a burdensome infrastructure of housing murderers so they can't murder people. It's in the reform that occurs in the penitentiary system when the "blood in blood out" murderous gangs headed by lifer murderers are removed from controlling them. It's in the resources available to meet societal problems which help prevent young people from growing up to become murderers. There are a wide number of very desirable benefits that are loving and forgiving which result from following scripture rather than Kenneth's misconstrued liberal theology.

Q: Did Jesus say leave vengeance up to Him?
A: Justice is not synonymous with vengeance. You have confused these two concepts together and it's led you into error. God has instituted capital punishment in His Word both OT and NT and there is no higher moral standard. He loves to an infinite degree and He has mercy to an infinite degree. We also see that He has holiness to an infinite degree and wrath to an infinite degree. All is maintained in perfect balance.

Secondly, we must recognize that God has given government the authority to execute capital punishment for murder (Genesis 9:6; Romans 13:1-7, etc...). It is unbiblical to claim that God opposes the death penalty in all instances. This, of course, has zero to do with the personal vengeance you appear to have referenced in Romans which is actually Paul instructing people not to seek their own revenge, but to "give place to wrath" and that the proper channel for wrath is the "governing authorities" while on earth and God both now and eternally.

And disturbingly, you've completely omitted that Jesus affirmed the Mosaic Law even to the keeping of the "least of these commandments" (Mat. 5:17-19). He blasted the Pharisees for giving their own ideas precedence over God's commands stating, "Why do you also transgress the commandment of God because of your tradition? For God commanded, saying... `He who curses father or mother, let him be put to death.' But you say..." Mat. 15:3-4

"For laying aside the commandment of God, you hold the tradition of men..." [Jesus] said to them, "All too well you reject the commandment of God, that you may keep your tradition. For Moses said, 'Honor your father and your mother; and 'He who curses father or mother, let him be put to death.' But you say..." Mark 7:8-11

This is explained more fully here: Did Jesus Support Capital Punishment? by Andrew Tallman – Bible Study Tips

Q: Does the NT teach to obey the laws of the land unless they contradict His?
A: Yes and capital punishment for the crime of murder doesn't contradict His.

Q: In the OT there were stoning and death penalties for sin, in the NT did Jesus show examples to not do that any more ? A: Here's the correct answer: Did Jesus Support Capital Punishment? by Andrew Tallman – Bible Study Tips

Q: Do not judge, or you shall be judged. And the manner you judge, you will be judged by. If you make a judgment call on ones life like that, then you can expect that same judgment on you.
A: You're confused again. Here's the correct answer: What Did Jesus Mean by "Judge Not"? | PARSE

I suggest you educate yourself Kenneth rather than continue to error so badly with God's Word. Here are a few references to help you get started with respect to this topic:

Contemporary: W. Berns, For Capital Punishment. Crime and the Morality of the Death Penalty (New York, 1981); Lord Longford, The Idea of Punishment (London, 1961); W. Moberly, Responsibility (London, 1951); O. O’Donovan, Measure for Measure: Justice in Punishment and the Sentence of Death (Bramcote, Nottingham, 1977); Punishment, Report of Working Party of the Church of England’s Board for Social Responsibility (London, 1963); J. H. Yoder, The Christian and Capital Punishment (Newton, KS, 1961).


Did Jesus put a limitation on how many times to forgive a person, or by His example did He show that their is an unlimited amount of times to forgive a person ? YES

Did Jesus tell us the will of God working in our lives is to go and minister to them ? YES

Could one be kept in prison for the rest of their life, and not be put to death ? YES

Where is love, and forgiveness in the death penalty ? There is none.

Did Jesus say leave vengeance up to Him ? YES

Does the NT teach to obey the laws of the land unless they contradict His ? YES
( If you believe it doesn't, if the man of sin comes in our time go and follow him and take his mark and see what happens. )

In the OT there were stoning and death penalties for sin, in the NT did Jesus show examples to not do that any more ? YES

The Lord Jesus believes in punishment for correction, not for us to usher punishment by death.

Do not judge, or you shall be judged. And the manner you judge, you will be judged by.
If you make a judgment call on ones life like that, then you can expect that same judgment on you.
 
K

kennethcadwell

Guest
First of all, there's no dichotomy between a person forgiving someone and a nation's criminal justice system operating rendering your entire argument fallacious.

We do not have to immediately shut down all of our courts and let everyone go free no matter what they've done to continue a life of assaulting, robbing, raping, and murdering innocent people so we can be as forgiving as Jesus taught because that certainly is NOT what Jesus taught.

Secondly, the context of the scriptures you're referring to is that Christians need to be ready to forgive a fellow Christian not just seven times but seventy times seven (Mt 18:21–22 par. Lk 17:4).

Let's answer Kenneth's quiz in context without any logical fallacies:

Q: Did Jesus put a limitation on how many times to forgive a person, or by His example did He show that their is an unlimited amount of times to forgive a person?

A: The question is logically flawed. You'll need to reframe the question so that it doesn't violate the law of non-contradiction (e.g. something cannot be both true and not true at the same time when dealing with the same context). But I'll answer it in the manner I know you intended. Jesus answered Peter's question that one should forgive a brother or sister in Christ seventy times seven. There are many other verses on forgiveness as well; however, they are not in contradiction with legitimate governing authorities executing a murderer for the crime of murder. Read this: Did Jesus Support Capital Punishment? by Andrew Tallman – Bible Study Tips

Q: Did Jesus tell us the will of God working in our lives is to go and minister to them?
A: Yes. Again, there is no dichotomy.

Q: Could one be kept in prison for the rest of their life, and not be put to death?
A: Yes. And, one can be put to death for the crime of murder yielding many benefits to society.

Q: Where is love, and forgiveness in the death penalty?
A: It's in the extra food in the mouths of innocent people's children that aren't being taxed to support a burdensome infrastructure of housing murderers so they can't murder people. It's in the reform that occurs in the penitentiary system when the "blood in blood out" murderous gangs headed by lifer murderers are removed from controlling them. It's in the resources available to meet societal problems which help prevent young people from growing up to become murderers. There are a wide number of very desirable benefits that are loving and forgiving which result from following scripture rather than Kenneth's misconstrued liberal theology.

Q: Did Jesus say leave vengeance up to Him?
A: Justice is not synonymous with vengeance. You have confused these two concepts together and it's led you into error. God has instituted capital punishment in His Word both OT and NT and there is no higher moral standard. He loves to an infinite degree and He has mercy to an infinite degree. We also see that He has holiness to an infinite degree and wrath to an infinite degree. All is maintained in perfect balance.

Secondly, we must recognize that God has given government the authority to execute capital punishment for murder (Genesis 9:6; Romans 13:1-7, etc...). It is unbiblical to claim that God opposes the death penalty in all instances. This, of course, has zero to do with the personal vengeance you appear to have referenced in Romans which is actually Paul instructing people not to seek their own revenge, but to "give place to wrath" and that the proper channel for wrath is the "governing authorities" while on earth and God both now and eternally.

And disturbingly, you've completely omitted that Jesus affirmed the Mosaic Law even to the keeping of the "least of these commandments" (Mat. 5:17-19). He blasted the Pharisees for giving their own ideas precedence over God's commands stating, "Why do you also transgress the commandment of God because of your tradition? For God commanded, saying... `He who curses father or mother, let him be put to death.' But you say..." Mat. 15:3-4

"For laying aside the commandment of God, you hold the tradition of men..." [Jesus] said to them, "All too well you reject the commandment of God, that you may keep your tradition. For Moses said, 'Honor your father and your mother; and 'He who curses father or mother, let him be put to death.' But you say..." Mark 7:8-11

This is explained more fully here: Did Jesus Support Capital Punishment? by Andrew Tallman – Bible Study Tips

Q: Does the NT teach to obey the laws of the land unless they contradict His?
A: Yes and capital punishment for the crime of murder doesn't contradict His.

Q: In the OT there were stoning and death penalties for sin, in the NT did Jesus show examples to not do that any more ? A: Here's the correct answer: Did Jesus Support Capital Punishment? by Andrew Tallman – Bible Study Tips

Q: Do not judge, or you shall be judged. And the manner you judge, you will be judged by. If you make a judgment call on ones life like that, then you can expect that same judgment on you.
A: You're confused again. Here's the correct answer: What Did Jesus Mean by "Judge Not"? | PARSE

I suggest you educate yourself Kenneth rather than continue to error so badly with God's Word. Here are a few references to help you get started with respect to this topic:

Contemporary: W. Berns, For Capital Punishment. Crime and the Morality of the Death Penalty (New York, 1981); Lord Longford, The Idea of Punishment (London, 1961); W. Moberly, Responsibility (London, 1951); O. O’Donovan, Measure for Measure: Justice in Punishment and the Sentence of Death (Bramcote, Nottingham, 1977); Punishment, Report of Working Party of the Church of England’s Board for Social Responsibility (London, 1963); J. H. Yoder, The Christian and Capital Punishment (Newton, KS, 1961).

It is your debate that is flawed, for the bible makes it clear that we are to try and mirror our lives by Jesus example, we are to try to be like Him.
In the bible it clear says that He forgives us of our sins, and casts them away never to be used against us again. In His example we are to do the same to others; to forgive them and not use their sin against them after they have been punished for correction.
If they have to spend the rest of their life in prison for their crime do to they do not want to repent of what they did, then so be it. ( Committing a crime is sin, so you can not say forgiveness and crime can not be compared )

Which brings me to my second point. I never said to shut down the courts and just release all prisoners. I said it needed to be revamped/changed, and that some prisoners do need to be kept in there for the rest of their lives. But if somebody has served their time, and has asked for forgiveness of what they did and shown a clear knowledgment of wanting to change their life for the better. They are to be given another chance, and not have what they did used against them any more.

You use murder as an example, and in the OT God does say if a man sheds mans blood, by man his blood shall be shed. Showing bible support of a death penalty, however that is the OT, and in the NT our Lord Jesus says all sins are forgiven except blasphemy of the Holy Spirit. Murder is not blasphemy of the Holy Spirit, so even a murderer is to be forgiven.

You say there is no comparison between ministering to a prisoner, and supporting the death penalty. I would disagree with that for to me one who supports the death penalty on an individual would not even give that person the time and day to talk and minister to them. You still hold a grudge for that persons actions.

Then you throw benefits to society into the mix for supporting the putting the death of a murderer. So you clearly say you put man's agenda's benefits before our Lord's mandates. Lord our God is to be put first in all things.

Once again you put others agenda's before what the Lord said in your answer to where is love and forgiveness in the death penalty. Lord Jesus said that love and forgiveness is to be toward all men, not to do away with love just because of a crime ( sin ) they committed. That and He made a point that there is no favortism, one persons rights are not to be put before another persons rights.

Wrong, I have not confused justice with vengeance.
The problem you have is that the mosaic laws had punishment by death for committing crime ( sin ), and in the NT our Lord Jesus took those punishments away and stated he who is without sin cast the first stone. None of us are sin free, and by the mosaic covenant laws we all should be put to death by God's standards in the OT. Our sins make us enmity to God, but in the NT the Lord showed us a better example that we are to follow and that was to do away with punishment for death for an individual when the sin.

Then you bring up government being God's ministers of justice, yes but only if they obeying His moral values.
If you believe we have to always be happy and follow the governments laws, no matter what they say. Then like I said before if the man of sin comes, go and follow his governmental system and take his mark and see if you will remain saved. The bible says no, those who turn away from God and follow him will have their place in the lake of fire.

No, Jesus did not say we are to keep the mosaic law. What He was referring to was the moral laws of God that were evident in the mosaic laws, and He also made changes/adaptations to the law. The bible clearly states the written ordinances of the mosaic law are not to be followed, because we are not under them.
You obviously don't understand the difference between what part of the law we follow, and what part we don't.

Thou shall not kill ( Yes we are to obey, but this does not say death penalty is ok )

In the scripture you gave of Mark 7, you need to go read the context of that scripture. Jesus is not saying He supports the death penalty. He was talking to the Pharisees who were under the mosaic laws, and was stating what Moses said in the laws. That and this whole chapter is about what dishonors a person, not the death penalty. Jesus said your actions and words dishonor or honor you. So if you disobey to forgive another, you dishonor yourself before Him.

Death penalty does not contradict the OT mosaic laws, it does contradict the Lords commands to forgive and not use it against them any more.

You did not answer my question on Jesus showing examples not to stone or put people to death for their sin in the NT.
All you did was refer to that page by Andrew Tallman who was just giving his opinion based on scriptures he took out of context, because they either were not referring to Jesus siding with the death penalty, or they were still a picture of those who fell under the OT mosaic law standards as in the thief on the cross. The were under OT mosaic laws, not the NT moral laws of God.

Once again on the judging issue you give a link of another's false opinion. That person says this just means a discernment between good people and bad people. That is completely wrong. Not judging goes along with what Jesus said also that we all have sinned and fall short, and non of us has the right to make calls on another person for we are all guilty in God's eyes because of our sin.

Romans 14:10-12
10 Why do you pass judgment on your brother? Or you, why do you despise your brother? For we will all stand before the judgment seat of God; 11 for it is written,
“As I live, says the Lord, every knee shall bow to me,
and every tongue shall confess to God.”
12 So then each of us will give an account of himself to God.

This scripture here makes it clear what the Lord was talking about judgment. Why do you make a judgment call on their life, or show despise toward another. We will all stand before the judgment seat, so leave the judging up to Him.

I am educated in the word, you as I have asked you before please check your sources before posting them. Because anybody can claim to be educated in the word, but still be wrong as your sources was.



Romans 1:22
Professing themselves to be wise, they became fools,
 

p_rehbein

Senior Member
Sep 4, 2013
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If the folks in NYC want to demonstrate.........................they should:

Gather about 10,000 people, or MORE..............greater the crowd the better............all of them get a pack of smokes........go to where this guy was and sell single smokes just like he was doing.............

Now, IF the police come and begin to arrest people, do not resist, the more they arrest the better, and when they arrest one, two more take their place..........

This would be the most effective demonstration concerning this tragedy in my opinion........
 
Dec 12, 2013
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Did Jesus put a limitation on how many times to forgive a person, or by His example did He show that their is an unlimited amount of times to forgive a person ? YES

Did Jesus tell us the will of God working in our lives is to go and minister to them ? YES

Could one be kept in prison for the rest of their life, and not be put to death ? YES

Where is love, and forgiveness in the death penalty ? There is none.

Did Jesus say leave vengeance up to Him ? YES

Does the NT teach to obey the laws of the land unless they contradict His ? YES
( If you believe it doesn't, if the man of sin comes in our time go and follow him and take his mark and see what happens. )

In the OT there were stoning and death penalties for sin, in the NT did Jesus show examples to not do that any more ? YES

The Lord Jesus believes in punishment for correction, not for us to usher punishment by death.

Do not judge, or you shall be judged. And the manner you judge, you will be judged by.
If you make a judgment call on ones life like that, then you can expect that same judgment on you.
I think you should study the whole N.T. and see where the bible states clearly that God uses human government to work his will...including capital punishment! MORE crickets is all I hear from you Kenneth chirp chirp chirp!
 
K

kennethcadwell

Guest
I think you should study the whole N.T. and see where the bible states clearly that God uses human government to work his will...including capital punishment! MORE crickets is all I hear from you Kenneth chirp chirp chirp!

The answers to the questions I posed can be found in the NT, and the answers are all yes like I said.
When you stand at the bema seat in front of Christ, and you have to give an account of your life as we all will.
If He asks you why did you want death on those people, instead of forgive them and minister repentance to them like I asked you to do. What will be your answer ?

God does use human government to do His will, but what are governments do is not always from God.
He allows evil to happen to serve His full final plan to be achieved, He Himself does not do the evil. That is where you have to discern what part of the government is from God, and what is evil being done.

The words of our Lord clearly teach to forgive, minister to, and not hold anything against another person.
The death penalty is still holding something against that person, and issuing out double punishment which is a judgment call on their life.
To side with the death penalty is doing the same as the Pharisees did with the law, that Jesus rebuked them for.

He said you hold to the other points of the law, but you neglect the main point of it, and that is love.
Once again where is love and forgiveness in the death penalty ?


Please don't use the same dead debate/argument that it is in the protection of others, and not having to pay taxes to house and feed them if kept in prison the rest of their life. Because love is to be shown to the believer as well as a unbeliever, to your God, neighbor, and your enemies. Plus that argument puts self before another, which the bible states we are not to do. We are to esteem others before ourselves, not esteem ourselves before others.
 
A

AgeofKnowledge

Guest
It's painful to see him error with scripture so badly. More importantly, he has zero interest in reforming his flawed understanding to what the bible actually teaches. The result is we watch him fill up post after post with lengthy erroneous rambling which gets tenuous repeatedly correcting. He is a genuine Christian with a good heart but a deeply flawed exegesis and a stubborn negative volition like most lefties I know. I'm surrounded by such people in this culture and just learn to live with them. Moving along...

"What Michael Brown's stepdad said before he climbed onto the car. In exclusive footage from after the grand jury's decision, Louis Head says, 'If I get up there, I'm gonna start a riot.'"

What Michael Brown's stepdad said before he climbed onto the car | Al Jazeera America


I think you should study the whole N.T. and see where the bible states clearly that God uses human government to work his will...including capital punishment! MORE crickets is all I hear from you Kenneth chirp chirp chirp!