Lesbians and Crossdressers want Weddingdresses

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Mar 1, 2012
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#41
.....and ya think pedophilia won't be legal soon? Then you do not understand what is going on here.

I would wager if this was a lesbian couple and only one came in, never mentioned she was gay and said she wanted a wedding dress, this dress maker would have made the dress without complaint, and I further wager that, that situation has happened in the past.

Still don't get the arguement a christian can be forced to support something their religion calls a sin.

If this was a muslim, and I think their religion thinks homosexuality is a sin, I also bet there would not be a problem.

Lets face the true reality here...this is pure bigotry against christians, done on purpose, again, to promote homosexuality as some form of equal rights issue and to declare true christianity as hate speech.
 

Agricola

Senior Member
Dec 10, 2012
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#42
All groups have their extremists, only a tiny number of pro-active gays are doing this, in UK when this sort of thing comes to light, there are thousands of gays who come out against what the activists are doing.

I would rather live in UK than USA, we seem to be more tollerant of homosexuals and do not treat them like sub-humans and evil monsters.
 
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AgeofKnowledge

Guest
#43
It doesn't matter if a tiny number are doing this or not if it results in Christians being civilly sued and criminally prosecuted for refusing to violate God's normative morality.

And you're not being forthright here because a large number of people who choose to engage in homosexual acts support extending civil rights legislation to a group of people who identify based on an immoral behavior they choose to engage in which, of course, means Christians who refuse to facilitate their particular immoral behavior are wide open for civil lawsuits and criminal prosecution.

And that, Agricola, IS government oppression and deprivation of their human right and religious liberty.

Which is something you should be familiar with for in your country if you state that homosexuality is a sin, the police come and arrest you and put you in jail.

[video=youtube_share;12LtOKQ8U7c]http://youtu.be/12LtOKQ8U7c[/video]

American Evangelist Arrested in London for Preaching Homosexuality Is a Sin

Christians who align with God's normative morality should be the ones protected by civil rights legislation. It's a sad testament when you have to argue that the moral need civil rights from the immoral. It's like having to extend civil rights legislations to those who don't steal to protect them from civil lawsuits and criminal prosecution brought by organizations of thieves for stating that thievery is a sin and refusing to facilitate it when thieves order them to do so.


All groups have their extremists, only a tiny number of pro-active gays are doing this, in UK when this sort of thing comes to light, there are thousands of gays who come out against what the activists are doing.

I would rather live in UK than USA, we seem to be more tollerant of homosexuals and do not treat them like sub-humans and evil monsters.
 
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Anonimous

Guest
#44
oh brother...just take your business elsewhere. As a pastor I will refuse to perform gay weddings...
 
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Anonimous

Guest
#45
All groups have their extremists, only a tiny number of pro-active gays are doing this, in UK when this sort of thing comes to light, there are thousands of gays who come out against what the activists are doing.

I would rather live in UK than USA, we seem to be more tollerant of homosexuals and do not treat them like sub-humans and evil monsters.
There was once another city that felt the same way... it no longer exists...
 

Nautilus

Senior Member
Jun 29, 2012
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#46
Im confused why some people feel we as christians deserve some special treatment based on God's law towards other groups even though the Bible clearly states the world would be against us? Like regardless of whether or not you support gay marriage, what gives you the idea you have or deserve the protection of a worldly government?
 

crossnote

Senior Member
Nov 24, 2012
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#47
What ever happened to good ol freedom of conscience?
Why is a persons conscience being trampled on?
The left used to honor 'conscientious objectors' not going to war, why has their standard changed?
 
A

AgeofKnowledge

Guest
#48
At least your asking questions instead of making false assertions. First, scripture is clear that God is the de facto highest power superseding all de jure higher powers of government. Secondly, in Romans 13 the description of higher powers and their function connotes ordained government to implement justice on earth.

Old Testament scripture reveals this as well. For example:

"Blessed be the LORD thy God, which delighted in thee, to set thee on the throne of Israel: because the LORD loved Israel for ever, therefore made he thee king, to do judgment and justice."

The purpose of justice corresponds with God's laws of human and societal conduct based in His own normative morality. The Bible asserts that the "judgment of God is according to truth" and contrasts the rule of righteousness in truth with "The prince that wants understanding is also a great oppressor."

Nautilus, government is not, was never, and will never be empowered by God to persecute Christians for living out God's normative morality and refusing to facilitate immorality.

The question you should be asking is why do some people feel that Christians should be persecuted by government on behalf of groups of immoral people for not facilitating their immoral behaviors when ordered to do so?

Like regardless of whether or not you support the abomination of homosexual "marriage," what gives you the idea you have or deserve the right to use what God empowered for justice within the context of His normative morality as a tool to persecute Christians on behalf of groups of immoral people?

You've got a wrong frame of reference Nautilus even with respect to what government is and what it's empowered by God to do.


Im confused why some people feel we as christians deserve some special treatment based on God's law towards other groups even though the Bible clearly states the world would be against us? Like regardless of whether or not you support gay marriage, what gives you the idea you have or deserve the protection of a worldly government?
 
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didymos

Guest
#49
(...) I would rather live in UK than USA, we seem to be more tollerant of homosexuals and do not treat them like sub-humans and evil monsters.



........
 
Jun 18, 2014
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#50
Genuinely, Jesus said getting remarried after divorce is adultery, so should business owners have the right to interrogate potential adulterers and refuse them service if they are deemed to be adulterers? It's exactly the same principle. Should a Christian shop owner have the right to interrogate potential atheists, since marriage is a Christian institution, and to deny those atheists service if they are deemed to be atheists? Should a Christian shop owner be able to interrogate a potential Muslim or Hindu, since marriage is a Christian institution, and thus be able to refuse them service if they are deemed Muslim or Hindu?

All those - atheists, Muslims, Hindus, gay people - are 'sinners' in that they openly do not believe or follow in the same religious tenets as Christians do, and in fact openly oppose the Christian tenets on various levels. Is that not what this is about? Gay people openly go against God's word? Well so do Muslims, Hindus, atheists and adulterers. But I guarantee you, if Christians fully applied this principle of interrogation and refusal beyond only gay couples, they would be out of business fairly quickly.

And to bring up another problem with this viewpoint - that it's okay to discriminate against gays in business - what is being in business? Being in business in a country whose laws cater to the equality of people of all faiths and equally to those who do not have any faith at all, means a business owner is assumed to recognize such business laws. Opening a business is a signatory act, undertaken by the business owner to abide by the business laws of that particular country. It is therefore a legally binding action; to open a business, in that any owner recognizes the authority of the legal precedents set forth in relation to business practice, to monetary laws, to consumer rights and so on and so forth.

A business is, by definition, a commercial entrepreneurship. This is the practice of setting up a construct to gain money in exchange for services or goods; an organization or economic system where goods and services are exchanged for one another or for money.

So, to surmise, a business is opened up as a means of exchanging goods or services for one another or for currency. I'd personally call that pursuit of money. And a business owner, upon opening a business, undertakes by proxy a voluntary agreement to abide by national business laws and practices.

There are two problems with this. Firstly, if a Christian (or any other religious person, for that matter) creates a mechanism for the pursuance of currency whose creation is considered an automatic voluntary agreement to be bound under national business laws that may or may not contradict their religious laws then that person willingly takes a risk of being left in a situation where they are legally obliged to go against their religious laws. That is voluntary, since no person is forced to open a business.

This is in effect 'serving two masters', which is expressly warned against in the bible.

And secondly, if one serves money itself in contradiction to their teachings against it, then denies service to those willing to give them the money they pursue, due to their religious considerations then this is an act of hypocrisy for the owners go against their teachings, long before the gay couple come though the door, by opening a mechanism for the pursuance of money and thus voluntarily agreeing by that act to be bound by the legal constraints that may or may not go against their religious laws.
 
Mar 1, 2012
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#51
Do ya stop yer kid from running out in the street?

Christians should make moral decisions. It kinda would not be christianity if we did not and with religious freedom, we should not be forced to make a dress for something we disagree with.

This would be like a muslim artists being hired to paint a burning of the quaran. Would he refuse? Of course, so why is it different for a christian?
 

notuptome

Senior Member
May 17, 2013
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#52
oh brother...just take your business elsewhere. As a pastor I will refuse to perform gay weddings...
So what about a funeral if the deceased was known to be a sodomite?

I support your position on marriage but I believe that there are some states in which the authority to wed may require you to act against your convictions. Pre-marital counseling should provide a means of encouraging a civil service in most cases. You still have the opportunity to share the gospel while making it clear why you think what they are doing is against God.

For the cause of Christ
Roger
 
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AgeofKnowledge

Guest
#53
The truth is that if a woman walked into that Christian owned business and stated that they were presently married but wanted a wedding dress so they could marry another man they were involved in an adulterous affair with: they'd be told to go somewhere else with the understanding that the business owner will happily sell anyone all of their goods and services, regardless of their race, religion, or gender, for any normatively moral purpose whatsoever.

No one is interrogating anyone. Customers come in and order what they want. If they state it is for some immoral purpose which violates the Christian owner's moral conscience and religious convictions: then they refuse to service that customer at that time on that basis.

It's really just that simple.

All Esanta's nonsense, extrapolations to ludicracy, false assertions, fallicious reasoning, false correlations, misinterpretations and misapplications of scripture, etc... etc... etc... only shows that HE has personal issues WITH Christians and Christianity NOT held by Christians or Christianity.
 
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Anonimous

Guest
#54
So what about a funeral if the deceased was known to be a sodomite?

I support your position on marriage but I believe that there are some states in which the authority to wed may require you to act against your convictions. Pre-marital counseling should provide a means of encouraging a civil service in most cases. You still have the opportunity to share the gospel while making it clear why you think what they are doing is against God.

For the cause of Christ
Roger
All valid points brother...I suppose my point is that nobody can really be forced to perform such a service. Maybe what it boils down to is whether we are willing to compromise our faith and choose when we ignore what the Bible says to be true. Is it an easy decision? No. But, often doing the right thing isn't easy... or popular. As far as funerals go... that's another tough call. Those just need to be handled with compassion naturally. To refuse such a ceremony because of the way someone lived would really be rude... but, even so you don't need to cause any more hurt to the family. Personally, I have not had to do such a thing yet... which honestly does concern me. I mean, how I would respond to such a request.
 
Jun 18, 2014
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#55
The truth is that if a woman walked into that Christian owned business and stated that they were presently married but wanted a wedding dress so they could marry another man they were involved in an adulterous affair with: they'd be told to go somewhere else with the understanding that the business owner will happily sell anyone all of their goods and services, regardless of their race, religion, or gender, for any normatively moral purpose whatsoever.

No one is interrogating anyone. Customers come in and order what they want. If they state it is for some immoral purpose which violates the Christian owner's moral conscience and religious convictions: then they refuse to service that customer at that time on that basis.

It's really just that simple.

All Esanta's nonsense, extrapolations to ludicracy, false assertions, fallicious reasoning, false correlations, misinterpretations and misapplications of scripture, etc... etc... etc... only shows that HE has personal issues WITH Christians and Christianity NOT held by Christians or Christianity.
I'm pretty glad you're the minority guy that's considered a monumental bigot. Allowing business to discriminate at will is license to marginalize people you don't like in a predominantly Christian nation; ''Oh, we'll refuse gays service, and if they starve cause of it, it's their own fault for being immoral''.

You're horrible.
 
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AgeofKnowledge

Guest
#56
Lol. You're name calling, lies, and hypocrisy aren't worth a cup of coffee. Look in the mirror and see someone who falsely asserts that morality and immorality are on the same moral footing... lol. Nonsense, they certainly are not.

You're seeking to discriminate against moral people in using the government as an agent of authoritarian punishment to deprive them of their human rights and religious liberty on behalf of immoral people who fabricate their identity from the very immoral behaviors they engage in.

The latter point makes sense in a way for truth is found in correspondence. If you murder, then you're a murderer; if you steal, then you're a thief; if you engage in immoral behaviors, then your an immoral person. Conversely; if you live a moral life, then you're a moral person. But it doesn't make sense in the way they try to exercise it for a person is not an activity even when they ignorantly identify themselves as such.

For some reason, deceived people wrongly believe that morality and immorality are on equal footing like race and gender and therefore it is moral to legislate that moral people should be punished by the government for failing to facilitate immorality when ordered to do so. But obviously, that's not true at all. THAT, is persecution of the righteous by government in opposition to God's explicitly stated will on behalf of the immoral.

The fact that deceived people also make false assertions to cover their logical blunder only shows how lost they really are. As continues to be stated REPEATEDLY at almost every opportunity:

The business owner will happily sell anyone all of their goods and services, regardless of their race, religion, or gender, for any normatively moral purpose whatsoever.




I'm pretty glad you're the minority guy that's considered a monumental bigot. Allowing business to discriminate at will is license to marginalize people you don't like in a predominantly Christian nation; ''Oh, we'll refuse gays service, and if they starve cause of it, it's their own fault for being immoral''.

You're horrible.
 
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AgeofKnowledge

Guest
#57
Personally, I do not see how facilitating a funeral is facilitating immorality. Examples of facilitating immorality would be facilitating a homosexual wedding or helping an organization constructed around some sexual immorality such as pedophilia or bestiality to hold a membership drive.

But presiding over a funeral service for a deceased person? I'm not making that connection.



All valid points brother...I suppose my point is that nobody can really be forced to perform such a service. Maybe what it boils down to is whether we are willing to compromise our faith and choose when we ignore what the Bible says to be true. Is it an easy decision? No. But, often doing the right thing isn't easy... or popular. As far as funerals go... that's another tough call. Those just need to be handled with compassion naturally. To refuse such a ceremony because of the way someone lived would really be rude... but, even so you don't need to cause any more hurt to the family. Personally, I have not had to do such a thing yet... which honestly does concern me. I mean, how I would respond to such a request.
 
O

oldernotwiser

Guest
#58
esanta, the last wedding i did was invalid at the time haha ...... three days before the ceremony (people flying in for it) the bride caught me in the post office and told me that the paperwork for her california divorce wasnt properly filed. she wasnt divorced. the couple had been together for almost 5 years and had a 2 year old daughter who was to be in the ceremony. i did the wedding anyway. i ended by ... "in the eyes of god and gods church you are man and wife." a month later she called me to say that the paperwork had been done. i went to their home and filled out the papers needed and registered them at city hall.
 
Mar 1, 2012
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#59
I'm pretty glad you're the minority guy that's considered a monumental bigot. Allowing business to discriminate at will is license to marginalize people you don't like in a predominantly Christian nation; ''Oh, we'll refuse gays service, and if they starve cause of it, it's their own fault for being immoral''.

You're horrible.
Just a fyi it would be discrimination to force the christian to make the wedding dress for gays.

Its religious freedom to refuse service due to what use to be normal religious practices but then being old, I remember when morals were much more clear. When the majority still believed homosexuality was perversion ( they still do but the homosexual agendists are just louder and have the political clout, for now ).

By the way where did you get the idea that the acceptance of homosexuality was a normative??

While this site is about gay marriage, which is different from accepting homosexuality as a norm, it still suggests the majority of americans are not in favor of it

Majority of Americans Continue to Oppose Gay Marriage
 
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AgeofKnowledge

Guest
#60
It does sounds reckless and irresponsible to marry someone who isn't even divorced yet. I suppose it makes it easier for her present husband; however, if that marriage fails too for he can file for an annulment on the grounds of bigamy as she married him while she was still married to another man: a ceremony you performed. *rolls eyes*.


esanta, the last wedding i did was invalid at the time haha ...... three days before the ceremony (people flying in for it) the bride caught me in the post office and told me that the paperwork for her california divorce wasnt properly filed. she wasnt divorced. the couple had been together for almost 5 years and had a 2 year old daughter who was to be in the ceremony. i did the wedding anyway. i ended by ... "in the eyes of god and gods church you are man and wife." a month later she called me to say that the paperwork had been done. i went to their home and filled out the papers needed and registered them at city hall.