NY Christian Couple Fined $13,000 for Refusing Lesbian Wedding Ceremony on Farm

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Aug 20, 2014
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#21
I've known a gay couple for over forty years. They have no children. They are not pedophiles. They do not participate in any gay rights demonstrations. They do not attempt to convert anyone to their lifestyle. They also know that the lifestyle that they live is against everything that the scriptures teach. Over the past few years, I've come to respect them more than I respect people who call themselves Christians and live like the devil.

We've been told by the ladies, not to tell them that their lifestyle is wrong because it is against God's word. I don't know how God expects us to share the Gospel with them (I don't believe that he wants us to give up), and I pray daily for him to show me.
Whomever is telling you not to share God's word with them so as to show them the homosexual lifestyle is a sin and wrong, is not teaching you the scriptures as they appear.
You're best to ignore that adviser that would rather this couple go to Hell as they remain in their sin. And then share the gospel not only with the homosexual couple, but with that lost adviser who does not know scripture at all when they're telling you such lies.
 

lasvegasgrl

Junior Member
Jan 24, 2014
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#22
Can you tell me which bible verses tell us that homosexuality is wrong? Do not include Leviticus, which is obviously irrelevant, being that it also says shaving your beard, not standing for an elder, planting two different seeds in the same garden, touching a woman who has just given birth, touching things a woman on her period has touched, eating the wrong part of the animal, etc., is sinful.
 
A

AgeofKnowledge

Guest
#23
Wow. It's not often I see a remark as ignorant and false as this one is of yours Esanta.

Do you wish to reconsider your ignorant false assertion or are you fully committed to it? I'm asking in advance as a courtesy in the hope I might save you the pain of public embarrassment that's going to result when I demolish it into a pile of smoking ash.



Legally, religion has absolutely no bearing on the ethics of legality, and marriage is a legal rite. You're trumped.
 

skipp

Senior Member
Mar 6, 2014
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#24
Can you tell me which bible verses tell us that homosexuality is wrong? Do not include Leviticus, which is obviously irrelevant, being that it also says shaving your beard, not standing for an elder, planting two different seeds in the same garden, touching a woman who has just given birth, touching things a woman on her period has touched, eating the wrong part of the animal, etc., is sinful.
Romans 1:18-32

1 Corinthians 6:9-11

1 Timothy 1:8-10

Jude 7

I purposely kept it to the New Testament.
 
A

AgeofKnowledge

Guest
#25
We've discussed this topic in detail. You may want to use the search feature in the top right of your screen to review some of the discussion we've had.

While you're doing that I'll just speak to your false assertion here that Leviticus is "obviously irrelevant."

Under the Mosaic Law of the Old Covenant, Leviticus 18:22 proscribed the act of a male lying with another male, classifying it as an "abomination" or "detestable thing." The Hebrew word comes from the root "to abhor," and the image emphasizes both ritually and ethically God's call to reject such behaviors.

Leviticus 18 also included commands against incest, adultery, sacrificing children to Molech and intercourse with animals as similar examples of "defilement" of God's land and people. The chapter's concluding warning entails imagery of the land spewing out those who have made it unclean with their abominations... homosexuality being among them.

Leviticus 20 follows and commands the death penalty for various sexual immoralities, including the "abomination" of males lying together. The images of defilement, land spewing out uncleanness and bloodguiltiness are particularly strong in this section of Leviticus that modern scholars have named the "Holiness Code" (Lev 17-26).

One need only understand history to understand the Leviticus 19:19 prohibition which was given to forbid the Israelites engaging in the occult fertility cult practices of the pagan Canaanites. See, the Canaanites believed in occultist sympathetic magic, the idea that symbolic actions can influence pagan gods and nature. Mixing animal breeds, seeds, or materials was thought to “marry” them” so as magically to produce “offspring,” that is, agricultural bounty in the future.

The Canaanites also sacrificed their children by roasting them on bronze altars to pagan gods. Sodom and Gomorrah were in Canaan. The Canaanites practiced incest, homosexuality, zoophilia, pedophilia, and child sacrifice. It was a very sexually immoral and wicked ancient nation and the Jews codified a legal system designed to keep them apart from the debauchery.

Unfortunately, many of them like so many today, disregarded God's instructions designed for both their temporal and eternal benefit and proceeded to engage in the sinful activities anyways.

With the arrival of the Messiah (e.g. Jesus Christ) a New Covenant was established and the Old Covenant fulfilled; however, God's morality did not change as God's morality is an extension of Himself and God Himself does not change (e.g. immutability), see Malachi 3:6. It is for this reason we find Paul using the image of not inheriting the kingdom of God to describe ten kinds of "unrighteous" people (1 Cor 6:9-10) including malakoi (the "soft" or passive participants in homosexual acts) and arsenokoitai (the active instigators-a graphic term for "those who perform male coitus") as well as thieves, drunkards and the covetous.

Likewise, 1 Timothy 1:9-10 adds arsenokoitai to liars and perjurers in listing more than a dozen "rebellious" types for whom the law is made. The point being made here is that we, as Christians, are being prepared for heaven and these activities simply will not be permitted there nor people who refuse to repent from them.

In Romans 1 Paul condemns homosexual acts, lesbian as well as male, in the same breath as idolatry (vv. 23-27), but his theological canvas is broader than that of Leviticus. Instead of treating homosexual behavior as an expression of idolatrous worship, he traces both to the bad `exchange' fallen man has made in departing from his Creator's intention (vv. 25f.). Seen from this angle, every homosexual act is unnatural (para physin, v. 26), not because it cuts across the individual's natural sexual orientation (which, of course, it may not) or infringes Old Testament law (contra McNeill) as we're in a New Covenant, but because it flies in the face of God's creation scheme for human sexual expression.

And understand that the Roman verses contain one of the very earliest combined condemnations of female and male homosexuality alike. Only two earlier texts make the link (Plato Laws I.636c; Pseud.-Phoc. Sentences 191-92). The fact that Paul condemns both female and male homosexuality along with pedastry, makes his statement generic.

While references to homosexual acts are limited in Scripture, they become a powerful image for those who give up God's good gift of healthy sexuality and exchange it for something degrading and unnatural. Homosexual acts become a symbol in Scripture for violating a basic principle of holiness: mixing that which the Lord declared should be separate.

Certainly Paul shared the Gospel with pagans involved in all sorts of normatively immoral behaviors in his travels as should we; however, Paul never condoned those behaviors or misrepresented God's holiness and desire for all humanity to both be justified in Christ and reconciled to Himself and sanctified as per 1 Thessalonians 4:3 which states:

"It is God's will that you should be sanctified: that you should avoid sexual immorality" noting that "But among you there must not be even a hint of sexual immorality, or of any kind of impurity, or of greed, because these are improper for God's holy people. Nor should there be obscenity, foolish talk or coarse joking, which are out of place, but rather thanksgiving. For of this you can be sure: No immoral, impure or greedy person-such a person is an idolater-has any inheritance in the kingdom of Christ and of God. Let no one deceive you with empty words, for because of such things God's wrath comes on those who are disobedient. Therefore do not be partners with them." -Ephesians 5:3-7.

"Or do you not know that the unrighteous will not inherit the kingdom of God? Do not be deceived; neither fornicators, nor idolaters, nor adulterers, nor effeminate, nor homosexuals, nor thieves, nor the covetous, nor drunkards, nor revilers, nor swindlers, will inherit the kingdom of God. Such were some of you; but you were washed, but you were sanctified, but you were justified in the name of the Lord Jesus Christ and in the Spirit of our God." -1 Corinthians 6:9-11.

Etc... etc... etc...

It is one thing to repent and become a Christian in recovery/sanctification struggling with sin issues in life. This is the condition many genuine Christians find themselves in; perhaps all to one extent or another. These are born-again Christians who have aligned themselves with God and His love and holiness. But it is an altogether different thing to malign God's Word to justify sin in rebellion to God's holiness and then live a life of ungodliness while teaching others to do the same.

It is in scripture we find the proper relationship between God's moral law and His agape love. Two equal and opposite dangers must be avoided:

1. Legalism effectively ousts agape love as a dynamic of the gospel and the Christian life by reducing both to obedience or conformity to a set of external commands or rules (after the manner of the scribes and Pharisees in the gospels).

2. Its opposite, antinomianism, ousts God's moral law as a dynamic of the gospel and the Christian life. Antinomianism is heresy that tells Christians it's OK to forget about God's law and concentrate solely on agape love... a course which is a justification for degeneration and immoral license, such as homosexual marriage, rather than promoting the true Christian liberty (i.e. freedom from sin).

The Gospel of Jesus Christ and God's grace in Jesus Christ frees the Christian from both these erroneous tendencies but only if Christians respectfully strive to follow God's moral law and both practice and realize agape love in their lives."

I hope you have found this informative.



Can you tell me which bible verses tell us that homosexuality is wrong? Do not include Leviticus, which is obviously irrelevant, being that it also says shaving your beard, not standing for an elder, planting two different seeds in the same garden, touching a woman who has just given birth, touching things a woman on her period has touched, eating the wrong part of the animal, etc., is sinful.
 
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RickyZ

Senior Member
Sep 20, 2012
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#26
Can you tell me which bible verses tell us that homosexuality is wrong? Do not include Leviticus, which is obviously irrelevant, being that it also says shaving your beard, not standing for an elder, planting two different seeds in the same garden, touching a woman who has just given birth, touching things a woman on her period has touched, eating the wrong part of the animal, etc., is sinful.
Oh, so that part of God's Eternal Word wasn't eternal... interesting theory. In cases like this I tend to think it's our understanding/application that's lacking, than that God's eternal Word stops being so. God is the same yesterday, today, and tomorrow, except for this?
 
Aug 20, 2014
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#27
Oh, so that part of God's Eternal Word wasn't eternal... interesting theory. In cases like this I tend to think it's our understanding/application that's lacking, than that God's eternal Word stops being so. God is the same yesterday, today, and tomorrow, except for this?
You'll find there are people who will argue just that. That God's eternal word isn't eternal. Not only that they'll try to convince people that salvation is transitory and revocable by will of the saved. Because, you know, people prefer Hell!

What Does The Bible Say About Hosexuality - Old and New Testament scriptures. Showing that homosexual sin does not cease to be a damnable offense and an abomination to God even when the new testament exists and reiterates the old in its own way.
 

lasvegasgrl

Junior Member
Jan 24, 2014
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#28
Hmm.. I was logging into this site with good intentions of getting to know Christianity. I finally just figured out how to chat yesterday. I've encountered so much hostility since I came here, and such anger for asking questions I really just wanted legitimate answers to. I think I'd prefer hell than to hang around such hostile people. I've met kinder prostitutes, drug addicts, and atheists. I don't think Jesus Christ could have been at all like Christians are. No wonder he hung out with tax collectors, prostitutes, and sinners. I bet he was really kind and loving and accepting, and liked to help people, not put them down or berate them. It such a simple saying, but it's very true that you will always catch more bees with honey than vinegar. This place is vinegar.
 

lasvegasgrl

Junior Member
Jan 24, 2014
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#29
I think I'll just close this account. I've seen enough.
 
A

AgeofKnowledge

Guest
#31
Such a hateful post. It really speaks volumes as to your own heart's condition, character, intolerance, and hypocrisy.

Jesus associated with all sorts of people from all walks of life but in every case his expectation is that they would progress in sanctification. Hence, his continually repeated command to them to "go and sin no more."

I haven't read your posts yet but, in my experience, most of the people that make hateful posts that condemn people as you have here do so out of immaturity because they haven't yet matured to the point where they can deal with people who disagree with them and/or are experiencing a facet of God's kingdom known as holiness.

If you've spent anytime with the Bible, then you've likely run across verses such as the following:

"but like the Holy One who called you, be holy yourselves also in all your behavior; because it is written, 'YOU SHALL BE HOLY, FOR I AM HOLY.'" -1 Peter 1:15-16

and

"Beloved, now we are children of God, and it has not appeared as yet what we will be. We know that when He appears, we will be like Him, because we will see Him just as He is. And everyone who has this hope fixed on Him purifies himself, just as He is pure. Everyone who practices sin also practices lawlessness; and sin is lawlessness." -1 John 3:3

The point being that when you come into Christian forums and interact with genuine Christians, you find that yes they are loving but they are also uncompromising about holiness.

The Christian position is a principled one that the world maligns because it doesn't accept God's holiness. As Jesus Christ Himself said in John 15:18:

"If the world hates you, you know that it has hated Me before it hated you. "If you were of the world, the world would love its own; but because you are not of the world, but I chose you out of the world, because of this the world hates you.…"

^ You've certainly displayed that in this post of yours directed at God's people.

You may want to take Christ's advice in Matthew 7:5 and:

"[You hypocrite] first take the log out of your own eye, and then you will see clearly to take the speck out of your brother's eye."

Examine yourself and your own words and correct what needs to be corrected inside you and with respect to your own behavior.


Hmm.. I was logging into this site with good intentions of getting to know Christianity. I finally just figured out how to chat yesterday. I've encountered so much hostility since I came here, and such anger for asking questions I really just wanted legitimate answers to. I think I'd prefer hell than to hang around such hostile people. I've met kinder prostitutes, drug addicts, and atheists. I don't think Jesus Christ could have been at all like Christians are. No wonder he hung out with tax collectors, prostitutes, and sinners. I bet he was really kind and loving and accepting, and liked to help people, not put them down or berate them. It such a simple saying, but it's very true that you will always catch more bees with honey than vinegar. This place is vinegar.
 
Aug 20, 2014
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#32
They have three posts to their account and all were attempting to get Christians to respond to what scripture says about homosexuals. When we didn't say, oh they're wonderful and can act just as they do and get into heaven! Yay! They then became hateful and offensive.

It reminds me of the homosexual girl and her mother who went to a bakery in Oregon, knowing the owner was Christian, just to start trouble by asking them to go against their faith and create a wedding cake for a homosexual union.
Same thing here only in print.
Hold them in your prayers. They're clearly hurting.
 
Mar 1, 2012
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#33
For bible believing christians, homosexuality is a sin. Its clear in scripture, no debate.

To force a christian business to purposely go against their religious beliefs and in fact act in a manner that would promote something they find to be wrong, is..

not the religious freedom our country was founded upon.

This is a contrived grievance to cause controversy....and those who are against the christians here could care less that this is a created controversy to promote homosexuality.

Either that or they are incredibly ignorant or bigoted.

If debating christian principles with people commited passionately to those principles is not your cup of tea....then don't boil the water.

Just like these promoters of sin and haters of christianity, you have the freedom to go somewhere else....

by all means
 
Aug 20, 2014
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#34
It's why I am still tickled at the decision rendered by a judge in Tennessee just recently as he upheld the homosexual marriage ban there. And on state Constitution grounds!

Article XI Section 18 of Tennessee's constitution
The historical institution and legal contract solemnizing the relationship of
one man and one woman shall be the only legally recognized marital contract in this
state. Any policy or law or judicial interpretation, purporting to define marriage as
anything other than the historical institution and legal contract between one man and one
woman, is contrary to the public policy of this state and shall be void and unenforceable
in Tennessee. If another state or foreign jurisdiction issues a license for persons to
marry and if such marriage is prohibited in this state by the provisions of this section,
then the marriage shall be void and unenforceable in this state.


I hope the majority of states that will be targeted by the homosexual activists agenda pay attention and amend their state constitutions accordingly.
This would then protect Christian couples like those described in this article in the OP.

For bible believing christians, homosexuality is a sin. Its clear in scripture, no debate.

To force a christian business to purposely go against their religious beliefs and in fact act in a manner that would promote something they find to be wrong, is..

not the religious freedom our country was founded upon.

This is a contrived grievance to cause controversy....and those who are against the christians here could care less that this is a created controversy to promote homosexuality.

Either that or they are incredibly ignorant or bigoted.

If debating christian principles with people commited passionately to those principles is not your cup of tea....then don't boil the water.

Just like these promoters of sin and haters of christianity, you have the freedom to go somewhere else....

by all means
 
A

AgeofKnowledge

Guest
#35
Most judges are under tremendous pressure to persecution Christians in the name of "equality" and "liberty" which really translates in this discussion to oppression and persecution of the moral on behalf of the immoral.

Read the 'Tyranny of Tolerance' by judge Robert H Dierker Jr for more information. He'll explain the tremendous political pressure the PC liberals put him under to conform to their wishes to create a favorable legal climate for the immoral and an unfavorable legal climate for the moral. At first he buckled in surprise but then found his backbone fortunately.

 
Aug 20, 2014
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#36
I'll see if my library has it. Thank you for sharing that title.
 
Jun 18, 2014
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#38
Wow. It's not often I see a remark as ignorant and false as this one is of yours Esanta.

Do you wish to reconsider your ignorant false assertion or are you fully committed to it? I'm asking in advance as a courtesy in the hope I might save you the pain of public embarrassment that's going to result when I demolish it into a pile of smoking ash.
Tell that to gay marriage.
 

Billyd

Senior Member
May 8, 2014
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#39
I've known a gay couple for over forty years. They have no children. They are not pedophiles. They do not participate in any gay rights demonstrations. They do not attempt to convert anyone to their lifestyle. They also know that the lifestyle that they live is against everything that the scriptures teach. Over the past few years, I've come to respect them more than I respect people who call themselves Christians and live like the devil.

We've been told by the ladies, not to tell them that their lifestyle is wrong because it is against God's word. I don't know how God expects us to share the Gospel with them (I don't believe that he wants us to give up), and I pray daily for him to show me.
I submitted the above post for one purpose. The stereotype of Gay people that many Christians believe is wrong. Someone close to you is probably living it. We don't have a problem sharing the Gospel with other sinners. Thank God someone shared it with me. Why do we want to cast the Gays into Hell? I pray that Christians will stop hardening their hearts, and begin to patiently share the Gospel with ALL who are lost and lead them to that narrow path that leads to the Kingdom of God.
 
Aug 20, 2014
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#40
I submitted the above post for one purpose. The stereotype of Gay people that many Christians believe is wrong. Someone close to you is probably living it. We don't have a problem sharing the Gospel with other sinners. Thank God someone shared it with me. Why do we want to cast the Gays into Hell? I pray that Christians will stop hardening their hearts, and begin to patiently share the Gospel with ALL who are lost and lead them to that narrow path that leads to the Kingdom of God.
I don't think it is fair to use that post as an example of all Christians. Not all Christians ignore the sin of the homosexual. In fact they hope to minister to the homosexual and help them to renounce their sin and find Christ and eternal salvation.
Unfortunately, when street preachers dare preach open-air and speak to the sin of homosexuality, they find there are people in that secular realm that protest, object outright, or worse, call the police to stop them.

When Christian groups condemn the homosexual sin they're told they are hate groups. Delivering hate speech. That they are bigots and intolerant and to be ignored.
Southern Poverty Law Center, that use to be committed to civil rights, considers Christian groups that adhere and promote political Christian values to be qualified for their "Hate Groups" list.
Eventually, SPLC will graduate to calling scripture hate speech. It is a matter of time since they've revoked their civil right respect for Christianity already with that label of Hate Group for family values Christian platforms.

True Christians, and their detractors will argue that phrase meets the criteria of "no true Scotsman", don't hate homosexuals. We love them. That's why we don't want to see them go to Hell.

Sadly, those aligned against us and the doctrine of salvation that is to be afforded all people, do. And that's why they seek to silence us with arrest if we preach open air against sodomy. And, as in that excerpted example you kindly provided, they advise other Christians to remain silent even in private council should a Christian know a gay couple. So that while calling one's self their friend, they betray that friendship knowing their friends are going to suffer eternally because they don't feel the need to tell them how to save themselves.

It is a tragedy. But it is not one that is the responsibility of all Christians.