Preachers Brutally Beaten At Gay Pride Festival

[Romolomo]

Violence isn't unique to one type of person. All people have the propensity for it.

 

[Viligant_Warrior]

What I am seeing is that you are espousing one-to-one evangelism but leave no room for speaking to a group. How do you think these two should have approached that group?

I'm not sure it is possible to engage a group that is hostile to the Gospel with any success. It's hard enough one-on-one.

But if they were going to try, most certainly they should have done so with love, purely and simply. If their intent was to preach the Gospel, they should have left the sign at home, walked amongst them, engaged them in conversation, asked about their spiritual beliefs, acknowledged where they were, and begun from that point in presenting the Gospel. It is far more complex, more difficult, than walking into a hostile group with a provocative sign.

BTW, I forgot to say in my last post, "don't leave" you're much appreciated here and your posts, especially covering news items, are invaluable. We just don't see quite eye to eye on this.

Thank you, Cross. I appreciate that. As to leaving, I don't know yet. What disturbs me is the number of men and women I know here who are, without doubt, sold Christians, but seem to have a "stumbling block" regarding the LGBT agenda and those who push it. There is no sin, from God's perspective, greater than any other. We can never "refuse to love" -- and let me hasten to add, I don't think anyone does that deliberately -- as that is not Christlike, and that is particularly true when we are dealing with LGBTs.

Adulterers, liars, thieves, abusers -- they don't flaunt their sins, if they are Christian. They hide them. LGBTs don't, and in saying that, I am rejecting the commonly held belief, I think, among most Christians that LGBTs "can be Christian." Just like other believers abiding in sin, I'm certain there are believing LGBTs who have not come to grips with their sin, making their sexual identity, orientation, and lifestyle a stronghold as surely as the addict, be his/her addiction a substance or sexual behavior, does.

I think that is what drives us to reject them more than anything else. But if we are true to Christ, we can't -- we must preach the Gospel in love to them just like we do the others.

 

[Stephen63]

Haters are gonna hate, & nobody can stop them. Let them ramble on, the readers will eventually believe they're backing the movement, with all the things they've said about these "horrible preachers". Who knows, maybe some of them are.

 

[Viligant_Warrior]

[ . . . ] Adulterers, liars, thieves, abusers -- they don't flaunt their sins, if they are Christian. They hide them. LGBTs don't, and in saying that, I am rejecting the commonly held belief, I think, among most Christians that LGBTs "can be Christian." [ . . . ]

I meant to say " ... can't be Christian"; i.e., many brothers and sisters here think LGBTs can't be saved -- ever. Still others believe they cannot be in the LGBT lifestyle and be saved, but must first come out of that sin before being saved.

That's ridiculous. Did you have to come out of your sin before you were saved?

 

[crossnote]

I meant to say " ... can't be Christian"; i.e., many brothers and sisters here think LGBTs can't be saved -- ever. Still others believe they cannot be in the LGBT lifestyle and be saved, but must first come out of that sin before being saved.

That's ridiculous. Did you have to come out of your sin before you were saved?

I would say this.
Individuals in the LGBT lifestyle can be saved and have been saved.
There are those gays who are saved but hate their propensity and sometimes lapses but desire to be fully freed.
But what I don't agree with are those gays, claiming to be Christian on the one hand but revel in, rejoice in and justify their 'gayness' on the other hand.

 

[KennethC]

I meant to say " ... can't be Christian"; i.e., many brothers and sisters here think LGBTs can't be saved -- ever. Still others believe they cannot be in the LGBT lifestyle and be saved, but must first come out of that sin before being saved.

That's ridiculous. Did you have to come out of your sin before you were saved?

Well that's a little yes and no...........

We did not have to completely give up our sins before we were saved, but on the other hand the bible does clearly state and show you can not continue to live that way in your sins.

The biblical example of repentance is a change of mind toward your sinful ways to where you no longer walk in them.
If a believer has repented but are still struggling in that sin to stop it, it is not going to cost them salvation. However if it is not a struggle to stop they are doing, but in turn continue to live that lifestyle willing then no they will not receive eternal life.

They can be saved just like any others of us with our sins, but once again the example is that they have to just like us learn self control and not give into that sin and let it control our lifestyle. The bible gives strict warnings for those who claim to be brethren/believers but continue to live sinful lifestyles.............

 

[Viligant_Warrior]

And what about the drug addict/alcoholic, the wife beater, the adulterer/fornicator, the liar, the thief, the gossip who are saved but continue in their sin. Perhaps they don't openly "revel" in it, but they nonetheless refuse to repent of it. They celebrate their sin in different ways -- the addict with his/her fix or the alcoholic by getting drunk and hiding it (both calling it a "slip" or "relapse" rather than the sin that it is); the abuser who won't ask for help and his wife who dresses to hide the bruises; the adulterer who brings his wife and kids to church the morning after he slept with his mistress; the liar who brags of successes and triumphs that never happened, in church; the thief who profits by his/her crime and then puts money in the collection plate; the gossip who uses "prayer" to tell his/her latest bit of juicy news ("Oh, please pray for Mary, as she's continuing to struggle with that urge to have an affair with her boss"). You don't think Christians revel in their sin regularly because they think others don't know about it? The only difference in the believing LGBT community is that the celebrate openly, while the rest of us engage the sin and hope no one finds out. When others do find out, we repent not in godly sorrow but in "I'm sorry I got caught" sorrow, but may have already planned how to sin again even while we say it will never happen again, and "please pray for me." It's hypocritical to believe the sin of the LGBT community disqualifies them from Christianity but don't raise the same hue and cry over equally blatant sin in our own congregations -- or in our own families, or even our own lives, for that matter.

 

[crossnote]

I would say this.
Individuals in the LGBT lifestyle can be saved and have been saved.
There are those gays who are saved but hate their propensity and sometimes lapses but desire to be fully freed.
But what I don't agree with are those gays, claiming to be Christian on the one hand but revel in, rejoice in and justify their 'gayness' on the other hand.

And what about the drug addict/alcoholic, the wife beater, the adulterer/fornicator, the liar, the thief, the gossip who are saved but continue in their sin. Perhaps they don't openly "revel" in it, but they nonetheless refuse to repent of it. They celebrate their sin in different ways -- the addict with his/her fix or the alcoholic by getting drunk and hiding it (both calling it a "slip" or "relapse" rather than the sin that it is); the abuser who won't ask for help and his wife who dresses to hide the bruises; the adulterer who brings his wife and kids to church the morning after he slept with his mistress; the liar who brags of successes and triumphs that never happened, in church; the thief who profits by his/her crime and then puts money in the collection plate; the gossip who uses "prayer" to tell his/her latest bit of juicy news ("Oh, please pray for Mary, as she's continuing to struggle with that urge to have an affair with her boss"). You don't think Christians revel in their sin regularly because they think others don't know about it? The only difference in the believing LGBT community is that the celebrate openly, while the rest of us engage the sin and hope no one finds out. When others do find out, we repent not in godly sorrow but in "I'm sorry I got caught" sorrow, but may have already planned how to sin again even while we say it will never happen again, and "please pray for me." It's hypocritical to believe the sin of the LGBT community disqualifies them from Christianity but don't raise the same hue and cry over equally blatant sin in our own congregations -- or in our own families, or even our own lives, for that matter.

What I stated applies across the board, regardless the sin. When a person becomes regenerate/born again, God laws, (desires,nature) is written on their hearts and God will see to it personally that that person won't be comfortable in their sin, even the sin of deceiving others. This is why I stated a gay (or any one else) who is a christian (regenerate) won't justify their sin. If they do I can only first point it out, and if they continue to justify it and practice it, then TREAT THEM as if they are not a christian even if they say they are.

1 Corinthians 5:11-12 (KJV)
11 But now I have written unto you not to keep company, if any man that is called a brother be a fornicator, or covetous, or an idolater, or a railer, or a drunkard, or an extortioner; with such an one no not to eat.
12 For what have I to do to judge them also that are without? do not ye judge them that are within?

We have to draw a line somewhere.

 

[tribesman]

This is what the russians don't want. Hence not much of pride parades there.

 

[crossnote]

Just received this from VOM (Voices of the Martyrs) in my email.
I thought the parallels and unparallels are quite interesting...

The group of Pakistani Christian men knew the risks when they entered an Islamic festival where fanatical Muslim leaders preached jihad and attendees renewed their religious zeal.

Quietly, they initiated conversations about Jesus, who is considered a holy prophet in Islam. By the end of the evening, they had distributed several hundred flyers telling about Jesus Christ and had exchanged phone numbers with people who wanted to learn more.

These men are a few of the more than 30,000 front-line workers VOM supports. They are sharing the gospel in hostile and restricted nations at great risk. As they minister in these difficult places, they need our prayers. Will you commit to stand with them in prayer as they share Christ?

 

[Mitspa]

And what about the drug addict/alcoholic, the wife beater, the adulterer/fornicator, the liar, the thief, the gossip who are saved but continue in their sin. Perhaps they don't openly "revel" in it, but they nonetheless refuse to repent of it. They celebrate their sin in different ways -- the addict with his/her fix or the alcoholic by getting drunk and hiding it (both calling it a "slip" or "relapse" rather than the sin that it is); the abuser who won't ask for help and his wife who dresses to hide the bruises; the adulterer who brings his wife and kids to church the morning after he slept with his mistress; the liar who brags of successes and triumphs that never happened, in church; the thief who profits by his/her crime and then puts money in the collection plate; the gossip who uses "prayer" to tell his/her latest bit of juicy news ("Oh, please pray for Mary, as she's continuing to struggle with that urge to have an affair with her boss"). You don't think Christians revel in their sin regularly because they think others don't know about it? The only difference in the believing LGBT community is that the celebrate openly, while the rest of us engage the sin and hope no one finds out. When others do find out, we repent not in godly sorrow but in "I'm sorry I got caught" sorrow, but may have already planned how to sin again even while we say it will never happen again, and "please pray for me." It's hypocritical to believe the sin of the LGBT community disqualifies them from Christianity but don't raise the same hue and cry over equally blatant sin in our own congregations -- or in our own families, or even our own lives, for that matter.

There is a huge difference between those who battle sin and those that rejoice in sin...There is a huge difference between having mercy for sinners and approving and promoting sin.

 

[Brighthouse]

Brother Warrior,I very rarely quote anything not from the Bible,however in this case,perhaps you will see some merit in what Mark Twin once wrote."The two most important days in your life are the day you were born and the day you find out why".

From the Word of God the closest I can get to this comes from psalms 139:13-17 The point! I would hope most never write anything to hurt another,I know I sure do not,and as we all see, not all are going to agree on anyone subject either!The race we believers run is far different then the race the world looks to run,and the rules to our race are also far different( 1 cor 9:23-27)

The believers race has no quit in it,because we as believers cannot afford to quit! You alone in Christ Jesus,may be the person another looks to, to continue his or her race!Another words brother, everyone here whether one agrees with them or not on any subject has GREAT VALUE!!

And if someone does stumble unlike the world, we stop to care for that brother or sister( gal 6:1-5) The point is whether we agree with another brother or sister,is not the point! The point is we all care about what we say,and how we say it!( col 4:6)

We will never find out our purpose until we finish the race,and we will never finish the race,unless we all have purpose in our running of that race! ( Acts 20:24!!!!)The mindset of us running good brother! For if we bow out in the race,many will not see the gospel of the grace of God in us! May this encourage each and everyone here!You know you are right,not because others agree with you,but rather because we care enough about each other to speak! Blessing all!!

 

[Viligant_Warrior]

There is a huge difference between those who battle sin and those that rejoice in sin...There is a huge difference between having mercy for sinners and approving and promoting sin.

My point, Mit, is that the LGBTs are not the only ones who celebrate their sin, excuse their sin, refuse to repent from their sin. People in all sorts of strongholds do so, and many of them are sitting next to us in the pew -- or, they are sitting next to one who does: Us.

 

[Mitspa]

My point, Mit, is that the LGBTs are not the only ones who celebrate their sin, excuse their sin, refuse to repent from their sin. People in all sorts of strongholds do so, and many of them are sitting next to us in the pew -- or, they are sitting next to one who does: Us.

Well then if its hidden, its not being approved or celebrated ..its hidden! That don't make it right but that don't excuse the promotion of others sins as well....sin will always show up...we don't have to go looking for it but when it shows up in the church we deal with it according to scripture that takes some pains to express how we deal with a brother in a fault...But again we never promote or excuse sin by pointing to other sin.
And what is going on in our society is the promotion and celebration of this sin as a moral thing. Huge difference between that and the fact that we all struggle with sin.

 

[Shadow-THI]

Well then if its hidden, its not being approved or celebrated ..its hidden! That don't make it right but that don't excuse the promotion of others sins as well....sin will always show up...we don't have to go looking for it but when it shows up in the church we deal with it according to scripture that takes some pains to express how we deal with a brother in a fault...But again we never promote or excuse sin by pointing to other sin.
And what is going on in our society is the promotion and celebration of this sin as a moral thing. Huge difference between that and the fact that we all struggle with sin.

Just because Christians do not accept a sin that is openly promoted and celebrated, does not make use haters or hateful. Likewise when we do not accept other sins that are openly celebrated or promoted. Again this does not make us haters or hateful. I personally would openly accept any type of sinner as long as they openly denounce their sin and ask the Lord for his forgiveness. Anything less than that, my answer would be no, because they are not Christian, no matter what the sin is.

 

[dcontroversal]

It's a shame it went like that.
I never understood the use of signs though, why can't we go and talk to people, get to know them, understand them and be personable? Holding a huge sign like that is quite imposing, obnoxious and just trying to get people to believe on your own strength and through the flesh. I mean, Jesus never went around just holding signs up telling people repent or burn, He actually engaged with people.

Except when he called them blind leaders of the blind, white washed coffins filled with the bones of dead men and hypocrites......and at one point instead of holding a sign he used a whip made of cords.......

 

[The_Wanderer]

Whatever happened to civil discourse? Do emotions have to dictate the style of the debate?

Haven't you noticed that emotion seems to trump logic more and more these days? The more you present logic to certain people, the more emotionally unhinged they become.

 

[The_Wanderer]

It's a shame it went like that.
I never understood the use of signs though, why can't we go and talk to people, get to know them, understand them and be personable? Holding a huge sign like that is quite imposing, obnoxious and just trying to get people to believe on your own strength and through the flesh. I mean, Jesus never went around just holding signs up telling people repent or burn, He actually engaged with people.

He sure preached without compromise, though, didn't He? If they had done that without signs, the crowd would have become just as inflamed.

 

[The_Wanderer]

Again I am trying to justify the people who beat the street preachers. My point is and was that the situation could have been defused BEFORE it got to that point.

Anything can be "defused" by retreating. How much longer will Christians keep retreating from the public sphere? We're supposed to be the salt and light of the world.

 

[The_Wanderer]

Freedom of speech doesn't mean you have to harrass people. What if I went to Memphis yelling the N word..then wonder why I get beat up for my freedom if speach.

What does that have to do with the Gospel?