Pregnancies from rape a "gift from God"?????

jimmydiggs · Dec 3, 2012

So?

So, if I shoot a bus driver and all 83 children die in the crash.... I should only be tried for one count of murder, and the rest is scott-free, right?

Regarding scripture and God's law though, you're point won't stand.

That might be what you consider it, or the law of man, but God sure doesn't seem to see it that way according to his word.

smithbr8 · Dec 3, 2012

jimmydiggs said:

What? The children in the bus have already breathed.....so no, you wouldn't get off scott-free. "You're" point is invalid. I am a point that won't stand?

Please point out the scripture that claims that a fetus is alive from the moment of conception and that specifically abortion is murder.

Jullianna · Dec 3, 2012

Oops....I forgot something...

In addition to the statutes in 38 states addressing the illegality of fetal homicide (LINK: http://www.ncsl.org/issues-research/health/fetal-homicide-state-laws.aspx) (I was going to post them all, but the server said it was too much),

Exodus 21 states:

22 “If people are fighting and hit a pregnant woman and she gives birth prematurely but there is no serious injury, the offender must be fined whatever the woman’s husband demands and the court allows. 23 But if there is serious injury, you are to take life for life, 24 eye for eye, tooth for tooth, hand for hand, foot for foot, 25 burn for burn, wound for wound, bruise for bruise.

I notice that the scripture does not state that the covered injuries/death must be the mom's.

jimmydiggs · Dec 3, 2012

smithbr8 said:

Fine, I'll go for the root of the matter.

Breath is never in scripture given as the beginning of life after the creation of Adam and Eve.

Haha, I noticed that as well. Must be the dementia.

Be prepared for a list:

Like 1:36
36 And behold, your relative Elizabeth in her old age has also conceived a son, and this is the sixth month with her who was called barren.

Luke 1:44
44 For behold, when the sound of your greeting came to my ears, the baby in my womb leaped for joy.

Isaiah 49:1
Listen to me, O coastlands,
and give attention, you peoples from afar.
The Lord called me from the womb,
from the body of my mother he named my name.

Isaiah 49:5
5 And now the Lord says,
he who formed me from the womb to be his servant,
to bring Jacob back to him;
and that Israel might be gathered to him—
for I am honored in the eyes of the Lord,
and my God has become my strength—

Galatians 1:15
15 But when he who had set me apart before I was born,[a] and who called me by his grace,

Psalm 139:13-16
13 For you formed my inward parts;
you knitted me together in my mother's womb.
14 I praise you, for I am fearfully and wonderfully made.[a]
Wonderful are your works;
my soul knows it very well.
15 My frame was not hidden from you,
when I was being made in secret,
intricately woven in the depths of the earth.
16 Your eyes saw my unformed substance;
in your book were written, every one of them,
the days that were formed for me,
when as yet there was none of them.

Romans 9:10-13
10 And not only so, but also when Rebekah had conceived children by one man, our forefather Isaac,
11 though they were not yet born and had done nothing either good or bad—in order that God's purpose of election might continue, not because of works but because of him who calls— 12 she was told, “The older will serve the younger.” 13 As it is written, “Jacob I loved, but Esau I hated.”

Mathew 1:18
18 Now the birth of Jesus Christ[a] took place in this way. When his mother Mary had been betrothed to Joseph, before they came together she was found to be with child from the Holy Spirit.

Matthew 1:23
“Behold, the virgin shall conceive and bear a son,
and they shall call his name Immanuel”

Genesis 25:22
22 The children struggled together within her, and she said, “If it is thus, why is this happening to me?”[a] So she went to inquire of the Lord.

Just a start. I bolded the relevant portions. Hopefully you'll be able to figure it out, but if it is not explicit enough to understand the point of the verses let me know.

and that specifically abortion is murder.

Click to expand...

I don't believe "abortion is murder", but rather that I have yet to see any justification for an abortion. Every argument I have seen is unjust, and thus a murderous reason for abortion. There is only one possible circumstance, where I'm not sure how to approach.

I think Juliana posted the most explicit, from Deuteronomy.

TheGrungeDiva · Dec 4, 2012

jimmydiggs said:

Hmmm ... Not sure we can say, "Well, except for Adam this works...." Seems like a pretty big "except."

Except for Adam, we are all without sin....

See what I mean?

As for the Scripture you provided, they are all examples of references to conception. They do not provide any kind of "proof positive" that the death of an unborn child was seen in biblical times as equivalent to the death of a human (after birth, that is). Yes, God loves every one of us, and knew us not only before we were born, but before we were even conceived. If you want to use that as a "litmus test," then anything that prevents conception is a sin -- including abstinence .... Hmmmm.

I think this is the most important distinction. Abortion is sin. This is absolutely true, and hard to argue against from any point. Abortion is morally wrong, even without looking at it from a religious position.

But is it *murder*? I really don't see any Biblical support for that.

As for justification for abortion, perhaps you have not heard of an "ectopic pregnancy." This is when a fertilized egg implants outside of the woman's uterus. This is actually not uncommon in women who are trying to get pregnant. With all due disrespect to Sen. Akin, the woman's body DOES usually flush this out at her period -- not having implanted where it is "supposed to." However, sometimes the implantation does not "fix itself," and the fertilized egg begins to grow.

At this point, if it is not removed, the woman will die eventually. It will grow to a point where it will rupture whatever organ (usually the Fallopian tube) and kill her. This will happen anywhere from 4-12 weeks, long before the embryo is even close to viable. In the mean time, the woman will experience excruciating pain. This is probably what happened to the woman in Ireland who died a few weeks ago when the hospital she went to refused to give her the abortion she clearly needed. She spent 72 hours in horrific pain and eventually died. There is NOTHING pro-life about that.

I experienced an ectopic about 4 years ago ... gosh, almost exactly, to this very day, in fact. Fortunately, I experienced symptoms and went to the hospital immediately. From the time I started feeling pain to the time I was in the ER was maybe 3-4 hours, so nothing like what that poor woman went through. When the doctors explained what had happened, there was no doubt. Of course, my husband and I were heart-broken, but we knew the only way we could ever have kids would be if I were alive to have them later. Exactly one year later, my beautiful baby boy was born. (Today is his 3rd birthday!) I will never be able to have a second child, but I am ever so thankful for the child I do have.

Did I murder a child? I don't think so. That is not to say what happened was "okay." It was not okay. It was so far from "okay" that the light from "okay" would take 100 years to reach it. It was a terrible experience, and I'm glad I will never have to go through it again.

But it was not murder.

BarlyGurl · Dec 4, 2012

TheGrungeDiva said:

I am going to try to be gracious and approach this from the position that you are CONFUSED. Your opening analogy is strange and comparing an ectopic removal to an abortion is NOT the same thing. While it is typically referred to as a "pregnancy" and ectopic pregnancy is NOT a viable pregnancy ever... the baby cannot develop properly or go to term at all... and as you pointed out... left untreated it is a fatal condtion to both mother and child. An abortion is the purposeful and intentional removal of a baby from the womb, at any stage of development of an otherwise viable pregnancy intended to KILL the developing baby. Viable means fetal development will go to term. Abortion is MURDER. I am sorry for your previous loss. I won't waiver that life begins at conception... that ectopic pregnancy WAS a baby... but it ABSOLUTELY would not have- COULD NOT HAVE gone to term. YOU did not have an ABORTION... you had a medical intervention to save your life. YES, that little tiny developing baby was killed... but you did not have an abortion... okay? I am encouraging you to take this to your prayer closet, accept what cannot be changed, there should be no guilt, but perhaps it is past time for you to grieve the loss of your first baby privately in the comfort and sheltering wings of a loving God.

TheGrungeDiva · Dec 4, 2012

BarlyGurl said:

I'm sorry, but you're just plain wrong.

An abortion is the removal of an embryo, with or without viability, with or without the aid of doctors. A miscarriage is an abortion. If you don't believe me, look it up. You cannot re-define words at your own whim to make a point or to satisfy your own prejudices.

I understand the distinction you are making. At the very least, you are implying that abortion can remain legal in cases where the mother's life is in danger and/or where the fetus is not viable nor ever will become so. That does NOT change the fact that it is an abortion by definition.

I most certainly have grieved the loss of that first potential child, and sometimes I still wonder what might have happened. I don't feel bad about it, because I wouldn't have had my son, and I love him so much I can hardly stand it sometimes.

I realize that you intended this sentence out of genuine concern and kindness, but I feel I need to point out that it is highly insulting and condescending. You are implying that you are morally superior to me, that you somehow know better than I do what is "wrong" and "right" and that you therefore have the right to tell me what I need to do. As one of my teachers used to say, check you 'tude at the door.

You personally feel that abortion is murder. That is your right. I know millions of people agree with you. I support your right to have that opinion, but I do not support your right to impose that opinion on others. Millions of people disagree with you, and in this country, legislation is not based on your personal opinion, nor on religion.

Jullianna · Dec 4, 2012

Since I read a few days ago in this forum that killing a "fetus" was not a crime, I've been reading all of the laws that I posted above. Many of the laws use this phrase, "unborn child in utero" as defining language in the statutes themselves. Others state that killing a child in utero would be a crime and would be treated the same as killing a child under the age of 12 years (or under the age of 15 in some states), with most states using similar exception language:

"nothing in the act shall make it a crime to perform or obtain an abortion that is otherwise legal."
"The law does not apply to acts that cause the death of an unborn child if those acts were committed during a legal abortion to which the pregnant woman consented or a person authorized by law to act on her behalf consented, or for which such consent is implied by law."

In essence, in pretty much all 38 states listing such legislation the killing of a child in utero is a crime unless performed by a medical professional. Then they call it abortion, as executions of criminals by governmental officials would not be considered crimes in states with death penalties, but would be considered crimes if the families of the victim(s) performed them in vengeance, would they not?

After I read all of that, it made me think that perhaps our modern laws have done the same thing with regard to abortion that the mosaic law did with divorce. And it brought to mind what Jesus had to say about doing that:

Matthew 19:8 - "Jesus replied, "Moses permitted you to divorce your wives because your hearts were hard. But it was not this way from the beginning."

I am thankful that I do not have to decide the rightness or wrongness of any of this. Man can make/break all of the laws they like, but might does not make right. We must remember that it was the opinion of the masses that Christ should be crucified and that Barabbas should be freed. The Righteous Judge of all has and will have His say and man's laws will melt like wax.

I did have another thought. A life taken in self-defense being different from murder is addressed in both the laws of the land and in scripture. How might this relate to a child's life being lost in defense of the mother's?

smithbr8 · Dec 4, 2012

Jullianna said:

Since I read a few days ago in this forum that killing a "fetus" was not a crime, I've been reading all of the laws that I posted above. Many of the laws use this phrase, "unborn child in utero" as defining language in the statutes themselves. Others state that killing a child in utero would be a crime and would be treated the same as killing a child under the age of 12 years (or under the age of 15 in some states), with most states using similar exception language:

"nothing in the act shall make it a crime to perform or obtain an abortion that is otherwise legal."
"The law does not apply to acts that cause the death of an unborn child if those acts were committed during a legal abortion to which the pregnant woman consented or a person authorized by law to act on her behalf consented, or for which such consent is implied by law."

In essence, in pretty much all 38 states listing such legislation the killing of a child in utero is a crime unless performed by a medical professional. Then they call it abortion, as executions of criminals by governmental officials would not be considered crimes in states with death penalties, but would be considered crimes if the families of the victim(s) performed them in vengeance, would they not?

After I read all of that, it made me think that perhaps our modern laws have done the same thing with regard to abortion that the mosaic law did with divorce. And it brought to mind what Jesus had to say about doing that:

Matthew 19:8 - "Jesus replied, "Moses permitted you to divorce your wives because your hearts were hard. But it was not this way from the beginning."

I am thankful that I do not have to decide the rightness or wrongness of any of this. Man can make/break all of the laws they like, but might does not make right. We must remember that it was the opinion of the masses that Christ should be crucified and that Barabbas should be freed. The Righteous Judge of all has and will have His say and man's laws will melt like wax.

I did have another thought. A life taken in self-defense being different from murder is addressed in both the laws of the land and in scripture. How might this relate to a child's life being lost in defense of the mother's?

It doesn't matter because the mother was probably a slut anyway and if it was a true rape, the body wouldn't have allowed her to become pregnant. NO JOKE this is what churches teach.

jimmydiggs · Dec 4, 2012

smithbr8 said:

Do you know of any examples? I have yet to run into churches that teach that.

jimmydiggs · Dec 4, 2012

BarlyGurl said:

I guess you don't believe life begins at conception.

hopesprings · Dec 4, 2012

smithbr8 - seems like you have had some seriously bad experiences with some 'christians' and some 'churches'. Please do not let that sour your attitude toward all churches and christians. A Christian is someone who follows Christ. Just because someone calls themself a christian, doesn't mean that they are a true follower of Christ. Just because a church calls itself a church, doesn't mean it is part of the body of Christ. For a church...or christian...to say that a woman who is raped is a slut, that should be a pretty strong push for you to go into scripture to see if God's Word actually says that. The bible says test ALL things presented to you BY the Word of God. Just because a church or christian says something to you, that doesn't mean it is automatically true...test it so that your faith towards God does not become sour and so that your love for others will not be hindered.

BarlyGurl · Dec 4, 2012

jimmydiggs said:

No Jimmy... I DO believe life begins at conception... I also KNOW there are biological conditions which prevent the baby from developing to term. Ectopic is one such condition... the biological end result of ectopic is a MISCARRIAGE... always. That baby will die... often times... by the time the condition is discovered... the baby has already died. AN ectopic is life threatening to the mother ALWAYS, surgical intervention preserves the life of the mother. Get it... life begins at conception... that is why it is called an ECTOPIC PREGNANCY... It's a baby... it is a biological FACT that not every baby conceived WILL develop to term and be born alive. Prior to modern medical interventions... (not abortion procedures)...various forms of miscarriage were the #1 cause of death for women.
I am surprised JIMMY that you are so studious... yet in this regard took my phrase out of context. My position harmonizes with the scripture, GrungeDiva and anyone else can marry wordly concepts to the spirit of scripture... I am confident my situational ethics in this area a ROCK SOLID.

smithbr8 · Dec 4, 2012

BarlyGurl said:

No Jimmy... I DO believe life begins at conception... I also KNOW there are biological conditions which prevent the baby from developing to term. Ectopic is one such condition... the biological end result of ectopic is a MISCARRIAGE... always. That baby will die... often times... by the time the condition is discovered... the baby has already died. AN ectopic is life threatening to the mother ALWAYS, surgical intervention preserves the life of the mother. Get it... life begins at conception... that is why it is called an ECTOPIC PREGNANCY... It's a baby... it is a biological FACT that not every baby conceived WILL develop to term and be born alive. Prior to modern medical interventions... (not abortion procedures)...various forms of miscarriage were the #1 cause of death for women.
I am surprised JIMMY that you are so studious... yet in this regard took my phrase out of context. My position harmonizes with the scripture, GrungeDiva and anyone else can marry wordly concepts to the spirit of scripture... I am confident my situational ethics in this area a ROCK SOLID.

But it's still alive....so wouldn't the miscarriage also be murder?

Jullianna · Dec 4, 2012

I have never heard that from the pulpit either. I find it helpful to use qualifiers rather than blanket statements so as not to bear false witness.

jimmydiggs · Dec 4, 2012

BarlyGurl said:

Let's review.

Definition of Pregnant from Webster:

1
archaic : cogent
2
: abounding in fancy, wit, or resourcefulness : inventive <all this has been said … by great and pregnant artists — Times Literary Supplement>
3
: rich in significance or implication <the pregnant phrases of the Bible — Edmund Wilson> <a pregnant pause>
4
: containing a developing embryo, fetus, or unborn offspring within the body : gravid
5
: having possibilities of development or consequence : involving important issues : momentous <draw inspiration from the heroic achievements of that pregnant age — Kemp Malone>
6
obsolete : inclined, disposed <your own most pregnant and vouchsafed ear — Shakespeare>
7
: full, teeming

Number four appears to be how it is being used....

So tell me, if life begins at conception, as long as the embryo is indeed living, even if in the fallopian tubes, is that not by definition a pregnancy?

I object to the usage of the word "viable" in describing a pregnancy that is deemed one that could be terminated through abortion.

: capable of living; especially : having attained such form and development as to be normally capable of surviving outside the mother's womb <a viable fetus>
2
: capable of growing or developing <viable seeds> <viable eggs>
3
a : capable of working, functioning, or developing adequately <viable alternatives>
b : capable of existence and development as an independent unit <the colony is now a viable state>
c (1) : having a reasonable chance of succeeding <a viable candidate> (2) : financially sustainable <a viable enterprise>

Take your pick, again from webster. I think you should be able to see my concern. EDIT: There are cases of abortion we would object to, but would not be by definition "Viable" pregnancies.

jimmydiggs · Dec 4, 2012

smithbr8 said:

Most cases of miscarriage are not murder, nor even sinful. Throughout history, there have been many cases that were murderous though.

BarlyGurl · Dec 4, 2012

smithbr8 said:

REREAD my post... miscarriage means to "miss carry", get it???? A baby begins at conception, it can be miscarried from that point up to the moment of labor. As long as the baby is dependent on the mother for its development any subsequent death is a miscarriage... it's death. MURDER is an intentional KILLING. I am talking about the abortion context here... I don't think you are asking about the differences in killing animals, manslaughter, accident...etc.
Also to clarify the definition of abortion. I am discussing the "abortion procedure" meaning the intetonal method used to kill the baby and eject it from the WOMB. Sadly, now there are "pills" available to supposedly prevent the fertilized egg from implanting into the uterine lining... since I do not waiver that life begins at conception... these pills are abortifacents, and quite frankly... so is the IUD and some birth-control pills.

jimmydiggs · Dec 4, 2012

BarlyGurl said:

I would be careful with that. I am hessitant to say abortion is in and of itself murder.

NIV rendering of Numbers 5:

16 “‘The priest shall bring her and have her stand before the Lord. 17 Then he shall take some holy water in a clay jar and put some dust from the tabernacle floor into the water. 18 After the priest has had the woman stand before the Lord, he shall loosen her hair and place in her hands the reminder-offering, the grain offering for jealousy, while he himself holds the bitter water that brings a curse. 19 Then the priest shall put the woman under oath and say to her, “If no other man has had sexual relations with you and you have not gone astray and become impure while married to your husband, may this bitter water that brings a curse not harm you. 20 But if you have gone astray while married to your husband and you have made yourself impure by having sexual relations with a man other than your husband”— 21 here the priest is to put the woman under this curse—“may the Lord cause you to become a curse[d] among your people when he makes your womb miscarry and your abdomen swell. 22 May this water that brings a curse enter your body so that your abdomen swells or your womb miscarries.”

Just as I would not say all cases of killing children, is murder.

1 Samuel 15 (NIV)
1 Samuel said to Saul, “I am the one the Lord sent to anoint you king over his people Israel; so listen now to the message from the Lord. 2 This is what the Lord Almighty says: ‘I will punish the Amalekites for what they did to Israel when they waylaid them as they came up from Egypt. 3 Now go, attack the Amalekites and totally destroy[a] all that belongs to them. Do not spare them; put to death men and women, children and infants, cattle and sheep, camels and donkeys.’”

This is why I am hesitant to say abortion is in and of itself murder. I do believe, however, that the vast majority of cases in America are murder.

Killing an unborn child because you can't afford it?
Murder.
Killing an unborn child because you don't want it?
Murder.
Killing an unborn child because it has down syndrome?
Murder.

jimmydiggs · Dec 4, 2012

BarlyGurl said:

There goes hunting, and killing those pesky flies.

Pregnancies from rape a "gift from God"?????

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