Rick Santorum wants to ban hardcore pronography - agree or disagree (POLL)
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T
It frightens me a little to think that you may not know this, but there are many people do not consider porn immoral.
I can think of several, though I don't think I can discuss them in this forum without violating all sorts of rules.
Is it a sin? Absolutely.
So is gossiping. How bout the government tap your phone and arrest you every time you call your neighbor to talk about that awful dress you-know-who wore the other day?
I can think of several, though I don't think I can discuss them in this forum without violating all sorts of rules.
Is it a sin? Absolutely.
So is gossiping. How bout the government tap your phone and arrest you every time you call your neighbor to talk about that awful dress you-know-who wore the other day?
Is gossiping your arguement? Nice. It would actually mean something if that scenerio was something I am actually guilty of. Try again.
I also don't care what others think. It is immoral. You even agree with it. Some people may not think stealing is immoral, but it is still wrong and illegal. I think porn should be. Its my view. Thats how I feel. There is no point in trying to justify how something that YOU admitted is a sin should be legal.
I also don't care what others think. It is immoral. You even agree with it. Some people may not think stealing is immoral, but it is still wrong and illegal. I think porn should be. Its my view. Thats how I feel. There is no point in trying to justify how something that YOU admitted is a sin should be legal.
T
Fair enough. Pick a sin, any sin. You aren't sinless, because none of us are. Pick any sin of which you are guilty. Is that activity also illegal? Eating chocolate. Thinking impure thoughts. Do you really want the government to be into your personal business that much?
And you can believe it's immoral all you want. You can believe that saying "Bless you" when someone sneezes is immoral. You can believe that wearing shoes without socks is immoral. No one is asking you not to believe that it's immoral. In fact, I will defend to my death your right to say it's immoral. That is also protected by the U.S. constitution.
I don't know very many people who don't think stealing is immoral. (There are arguments about degree, such as the proverbial man who steals a loaf of bread to feed his family ... but even then, in general, stealing is seen as immoral by pretty much any code of ethics you look at.)
It is illegal in the U.S. not because it is immoral, but because there is a victim. If you steal from me, I have lost something. It's not your immorality that is the issue, but my loss. That is how laws are structured -- at least in the U.S.
Now, I didn't look at your profile to see if you are from the U.S. Perhaps you are not. And if that is the case, then I have no right to tell you what should be legal or illegal in your country. That would depend on the laws in your country.
But in the U.S., you cannot make something illegal just because you "don't like it." If someone is hurt by porn, then it should be and is illegal. There are all kinds of restrictions on porn, designed to protect people. But when no one is hurt -- when it's two consenting adults who don't take it outside of their bedroom -- then our constitution says the government has to stay out. You don't have to like it. I don't have to like it. The President of the United States doesn't have to like it. But that's our constitution, and that is what binds us, in the U.S.
Again, if you are in another country where government is allowed to restrict personal rights, then I cannot say.
As long as I'm in the U.S. and have one breath left in me, there is EVERY point in me supporting the rights of others to do whatever immoral but victimless actions they want. That's what it's all about. Yes, it's kinda crazy, this constitution, but I think that's what makes our country so great. And I don't like politicians on EITHER SIDE playing with it.
If you would like to see what it's like to live in a country where laws are based on religious morality, I have a lovely house in Afghanistan I could sell you....
And you can believe it's immoral all you want. You can believe that saying "Bless you" when someone sneezes is immoral. You can believe that wearing shoes without socks is immoral. No one is asking you not to believe that it's immoral. In fact, I will defend to my death your right to say it's immoral. That is also protected by the U.S. constitution.
I don't know very many people who don't think stealing is immoral. (There are arguments about degree, such as the proverbial man who steals a loaf of bread to feed his family ... but even then, in general, stealing is seen as immoral by pretty much any code of ethics you look at.)
It is illegal in the U.S. not because it is immoral, but because there is a victim. If you steal from me, I have lost something. It's not your immorality that is the issue, but my loss. That is how laws are structured -- at least in the U.S.
Now, I didn't look at your profile to see if you are from the U.S. Perhaps you are not. And if that is the case, then I have no right to tell you what should be legal or illegal in your country. That would depend on the laws in your country.
But in the U.S., you cannot make something illegal just because you "don't like it." If someone is hurt by porn, then it should be and is illegal. There are all kinds of restrictions on porn, designed to protect people. But when no one is hurt -- when it's two consenting adults who don't take it outside of their bedroom -- then our constitution says the government has to stay out. You don't have to like it. I don't have to like it. The President of the United States doesn't have to like it. But that's our constitution, and that is what binds us, in the U.S.
Again, if you are in another country where government is allowed to restrict personal rights, then I cannot say.
As long as I'm in the U.S. and have one breath left in me, there is EVERY point in me supporting the rights of others to do whatever immoral but victimless actions they want. That's what it's all about. Yes, it's kinda crazy, this constitution, but I think that's what makes our country so great. And I don't like politicians on EITHER SIDE playing with it.
If you would like to see what it's like to live in a country where laws are based on religious morality, I have a lovely house in Afghanistan I could sell you....
T
Perhaps you missed my post. Legality has nothing to do with morality. It has to do with protecting the citizens of its country.
Stealing is illegal not because it is immoral but because it hurts another person -- the victim of the theft. There are examples of laws that are not immoral but illegal. I would put speeding in that category. I don't think it's a sin to drive 36 mph in a 35 zone, or to walk across the street against the light once you have looked both ways and made certain there are no other vehicles. And yet there are laws stating you can't do those things. You really think God cares about that?
Again, secular laws have nothing to do with morality. You live your life the way you see fit, as long as it doesn't hurt anyone else. Let them live their lives the way they see fit, as long as it doesn't hurt anyone else.
The best expression I've heard to summarize it is this: "Your right to swing your arms ends at my face."
There's absolutely no problem with you wanting to live your life based on Christian values. No one is asking you not to. In fact, if they were, as I said, I would defend to the death your right to live your life based on Christian values.
The problem here is not what values you get to live, but what values you get to enforce on others.
Stealing is illegal not because it is immoral but because it hurts another person -- the victim of the theft. There are examples of laws that are not immoral but illegal. I would put speeding in that category. I don't think it's a sin to drive 36 mph in a 35 zone, or to walk across the street against the light once you have looked both ways and made certain there are no other vehicles. And yet there are laws stating you can't do those things. You really think God cares about that?
Again, secular laws have nothing to do with morality. You live your life the way you see fit, as long as it doesn't hurt anyone else. Let them live their lives the way they see fit, as long as it doesn't hurt anyone else.
The best expression I've heard to summarize it is this: "Your right to swing your arms ends at my face."
There's absolutely no problem with you wanting to live your life based on Christian values. No one is asking you not to. In fact, if they were, as I said, I would defend to the death your right to live your life based on Christian values.
The problem here is not what values you get to live, but what values you get to enforce on others.
Ok good for you, not eveyrone in the US wants to live their lives by Christian nor should they be forced too. THis is one thing that I cant wrap my head around about fellow chrisitians. Knowing that not everyone is a Chrisitian some still have no issue saying everyone should be forced to live by them as well which i find disingenious and wrong.
if you dont watch it and dont associate with people who do, it doesnt harm you. If people choose to view porn then i think thats on them not us.
If you think pornography doesn'y affect others you are sadly mistaken. I will say that I got too heated in this conversation, but for that I do apologize, but I still don't support pornz. 
Making porn illegal does not force anyone to become a Christian. I am sure there are other religons that don't agree with it as well. Not just Christianity.
You have also proved over and over again that you seem to think it is wrong for a Christian to stand up against alot that is not biblical. I don't know why you are so against Christians having a voice or rights, but that is your choice. I don't force my views on others but I sure don't want our rights as Christians taken away because others feel they have more rights than us.
Also, porn DOES harm others who don't associate with it. Marriages have been destroyed because of it. I know someone whose privacy was totally violated because of it. For a man to record a woman in her bedroom changing clothes, showering, in dressing rooms and so on and then putting it out there for the public to see is harmful. This happens alot, and after something like that goes public it is impossible to remove it from the public. Sadly enough, a person doesn't have to participate in an actual sexual activity for her privacy to be violated. I know PERSONALLY how harmful it can be, and I don't associate with the industry.
You have also proved over and over again that you seem to think it is wrong for a Christian to stand up against alot that is not biblical. I don't know why you are so against Christians having a voice or rights, but that is your choice. I don't force my views on others but I sure don't want our rights as Christians taken away because others feel they have more rights than us.
Also, porn DOES harm others who don't associate with it. Marriages have been destroyed because of it. I know someone whose privacy was totally violated because of it. For a man to record a woman in her bedroom changing clothes, showering, in dressing rooms and so on and then putting it out there for the public to see is harmful. This happens alot, and after something like that goes public it is impossible to remove it from the public. Sadly enough, a person doesn't have to participate in an actual sexual activity for her privacy to be violated. I know PERSONALLY how harmful it can be, and I don't associate with the industry.
Supporting it though is different than 'allowing the sinners to sin'.
The point is I wouldn't want everything that is biblically immoral to be illegal. That is forcing people's free will away and forcing my religion onto governmental policy.
Governmental laws are there to protect people mainly from abuse and physical harm and stay at a happy medium for the whole population of a country.
Fundamentally creating laws around religion is not a good idea as we've seen with some Arabian states because it leaves room for extremely harsh penalties and misinterpretation.
Being a follower means making a conscious decision to go above and beyond worldly laws and to try to make your own life and actions pure. Not to force it upon unwilling people.
Could you imagine the backlash and trouble it would cause?
It causes less trouble for a nation to keep it legal.
The way it's seen; if two consenting adults (who are not followers) want to have sex and tape it, then they have the right to do so.
People also have the right not to watch it.
The point is I wouldn't want everything that is biblically immoral to be illegal. That is forcing people's free will away and forcing my religion onto governmental policy.
Governmental laws are there to protect people mainly from abuse and physical harm and stay at a happy medium for the whole population of a country.
Fundamentally creating laws around religion is not a good idea as we've seen with some Arabian states because it leaves room for extremely harsh penalties and misinterpretation.
Being a follower means making a conscious decision to go above and beyond worldly laws and to try to make your own life and actions pure. Not to force it upon unwilling people.
Could you imagine the backlash and trouble it would cause?
It causes less trouble for a nation to keep it legal.
The way it's seen; if two consenting adults (who are not followers) want to have sex and tape it, then they have the right to do so.
People also have the right not to watch it.
If you think pornography doesn'y affect others you are sadly mistaken. I will say that I got too heated in this conversation, but for that I do apologize, but I still don't support pornz.
Porn is frowned upon even by a massive number of atheists. Many think it blunts the sex drive and gives people unrealistic expectations about sex in general.
There is plenty of knowledge out there about it's effects, but it's still people's right to make and watch it.
The same as smoking or drinking. They cause problems in society but they are rights, and rights that are there to try to appease both sides of the fence to some degree.
It's my right not to smoke too. Or not to drink.
Its not that christians shouldnt have a voice, what I dont like is people trying to turn biblical principles into laws in this country. There is a reason the two are separate and should stay separate. If someone wants to make a law you need a much better reason than the Bible says so. The Bible works fine for us, but not for everyone.
B
I have noticed this has become a most interesting question to many!! With many very excellent answers to this question as well!! Can the world be banned??LOL We wish!! many of us wish this!! As we are all parts in Jesus,so the world is made up of parts to the enemy. We see these parts wherever we go.Like to a movie,the mall, whatever is a part of the world.
The computer is made to serve the world,yes it is sad many good people of the Lord have trouble in there discipline of themselves to keep from partaking on much the world offers.But then again that is the discipline factor we must learn to have in Christ Jesus. Through these many offers the enemy is looking to rob us,( john 10:10) " oh you do not need to be accountable to anyone but self!! Who do others think they are??" LOl sound like anything that has come against your mind??
To the mature believer,we fully understand what this means in our lives. It may mean leaving our computer for a time,perhaps not go to the mall as much as we would like,another words getting in balance. Sometimes we point to others faults because of our own. When our eyes look to many and tell them of there faults we forget something many times,the eyes that look back at us are more!! All there eyes look back at us!!
This is why Colossians 4:6 is one great benchmark for us! A standard to measure others by,so that we can be measured the same way. We cannot help others by judging them to me.We help them when our words are measured by what we ourselve would wish to hear by them. Just something for us to consider is all. For yourself you have every right to judge!! For others,we keep in mind how many eyes are looking back at us,and measure our words according to our own faith.Blessing all.Some very excellent responses though! Thanks for your teaching as well!!
The computer is made to serve the world,yes it is sad many good people of the Lord have trouble in there discipline of themselves to keep from partaking on much the world offers.But then again that is the discipline factor we must learn to have in Christ Jesus. Through these many offers the enemy is looking to rob us,( john 10:10) " oh you do not need to be accountable to anyone but self!! Who do others think they are??" LOl sound like anything that has come against your mind??
To the mature believer,we fully understand what this means in our lives. It may mean leaving our computer for a time,perhaps not go to the mall as much as we would like,another words getting in balance. Sometimes we point to others faults because of our own. When our eyes look to many and tell them of there faults we forget something many times,the eyes that look back at us are more!! All there eyes look back at us!!
This is why Colossians 4:6 is one great benchmark for us! A standard to measure others by,so that we can be measured the same way. We cannot help others by judging them to me.We help them when our words are measured by what we ourselve would wish to hear by them. Just something for us to consider is all. For yourself you have every right to judge!! For others,we keep in mind how many eyes are looking back at us,and measure our words according to our own faith.Blessing all.Some very excellent responses though! Thanks for your teaching as well!!
T
And allowing it to remain legal does not prevent anyone from being Christian. Plus, you don't have to change the constitution.
And I have said, over and over again, that you are mistaken in this. I am not saying Christians shouldn't stand up for the Bible, and/or be against things that aren't in the Bible. All I and others are saying is that in the U.S., we cannot base our secular laws on such things.
If you deny others legal access to porn, then you are forcing your views on others. By definition.
How are your rights taken away?
No, it doesn't, as I will show:
If a man is going to cheat on his wife with porn, how is making it illegal going to keep the marriage together? If he doesn't have enough respect for her to avoid porn, he doesn't respect her enough whether it's legal or not. A marriage that falls apart "because of porn" was never healthy to begin with.
I'm sorry, but you're going to have to explain this or retract it. A person's privacy cannot be "totally violated" due to any of the porn that is legal in this country.
Ummm, yes, if he does so without her knowledge, it is harmful. It's also illegal. That is not porn, it's called "peeping tom," and there are laws against such things. The porn that is legal is consensual. If it is legal, it is not harmful. If it is harmful, it is not legal. And I challenge you to prove otherwise.
And I have said, over and over again, that you are mistaken in this. I am not saying Christians shouldn't stand up for the Bible, and/or be against things that aren't in the Bible. All I and others are saying is that in the U.S., we cannot base our secular laws on such things.
If you deny others legal access to porn, then you are forcing your views on others. By definition.
How are your rights taken away?
No, it doesn't, as I will show:
If a man is going to cheat on his wife with porn, how is making it illegal going to keep the marriage together? If he doesn't have enough respect for her to avoid porn, he doesn't respect her enough whether it's legal or not. A marriage that falls apart "because of porn" was never healthy to begin with.
I'm sorry, but you're going to have to explain this or retract it. A person's privacy cannot be "totally violated" due to any of the porn that is legal in this country.
Ummm, yes, if he does so without her knowledge, it is harmful. It's also illegal. That is not porn, it's called "peeping tom," and there are laws against such things. The porn that is legal is consensual. If it is legal, it is not harmful. If it is harmful, it is not legal. And I challenge you to prove otherwise.
You do realize this post wasn't even directed at you don't you?
I also don't have to prove anything to you. I do not approve of any type or pron, and I really cannot see why it is such a huge issue for you that I do not approve? You may disagree and feel that I am in support of "taking rights away" which I am not.
I have issues with porn. I know the damage is can cause others. I also don't have to explain anything to you about why I feel so strongly about this. I shared enough to point out that I have personal problems with it. That is all you need to know. I do not approve of porn and yes, I do wish it was illegal. I am also aware that if it was illegal it wont stop some people from associating with it.
You can also argue with me all day long on how I am wrong to feel this way, and I will not change my view. We can agree to disagree. I have stated my view, and it will not change.
I will say though that porn is probably the least thing that causes issue in this country right now. There are bigger things to deal with. That still doesn't change my view though
T
I know you were directing some specific comments to, I believe, Nautilus. If you didn't want anyone else to read and comment, you should have posted it privately. By posting it publicly, you are inviting others to comment. That's the way chat boards work.
You don't have to "prove" anything to me. What I would like to get you to understand is that it is possible -- and in fact very common -- to disapprove of something but still accept its legality in the U.S. I've stated this several times, in several different ways, but you still don't seem to get it, because you say things like that, seeming to think I approve of porn and I'm trying to "get" you to approve of porn.
There are a lot of things I don't approve of. I don't approve of people skipping Church for some sporting event. But that is their choice. I'm not going to ask the US to pass a law making church attendance mandatory.
I don't approve of people refusing to date people of another race, just because they are another race. But that is their choice. It would be impossible to "force" someone to find someone of another race attractive, even if we tried, and I wouldn't want to try.
I don't approve of porn. But I am not about to sit here and say that someone else is not allowed to use it within the confines of their own home, as long as it doesn't affect anyone else.
If you tell me, "Okay, I get what you're saying, and because of some of the dangers to society at large, I'm still against keeping it legal," I would accept that, and agree to disagree. But that's not what you're saying. You're saying that you want it to be illegal because you don't like it. Sorry, that I cannot accept. "Not liking" something is not a good enough reason to want to make it illegal.
If it were, I'm pretty sure Brussel sprouts would have been outlawed centuries ago.
And yes, you do have to justify that to me, or risk being seen as a selfish idiot who doesn't understand anything about the American legal system. Now, I know you are neither selfish nor an idiot -- I know you are a loving, Christian person who, based on your writing, is probably above average intelligence. That is why I'm making it an issue. If I thought you were just an idiot, I'd let it go, figuring you just couldn't figure it out. I know you're smarter than that.
If you want it to be illegal, you are in support of taking rights away, by definition.
Just to reiterate, I do NOT think you're wrong to hate porn. It is disgusting. Personally, I don't understand what men who do enjoy it see in it ... What little I've seen is either boring or gross on the level of watching a doctor operate. No thanks.
And, as I said before, if you were to come out and say, "Okay, I understand that making it illegal is restricting a freedom, but I feel, because of the damage porn does to our society, the risks of keeping it legal are greater than the risks of limiting this particular freedom" -- Well, I would disagree with you, but that would be an opinion of yours, not a fact, so you wouldn't be "wrong." Yes, you have said enough to support that position.
Where I draw the line is when you make false statements, like "I am not trying to limit people's rights," when clearly you are, or "Why are you saying that it's a bad thing for me to hate porn," which I have never said nor implied, and in fact have said the opposite several times.
There's nothing wrong with having an emotional reaction to some issue. I get emotional about a lot of stuff. It's what makes us human. And what makes us mature humans is being able to recognize logic within that emotion, rather than throw all sense out the window.
You don't have to "prove" anything to me. What I would like to get you to understand is that it is possible -- and in fact very common -- to disapprove of something but still accept its legality in the U.S. I've stated this several times, in several different ways, but you still don't seem to get it, because you say things like that, seeming to think I approve of porn and I'm trying to "get" you to approve of porn.
There are a lot of things I don't approve of. I don't approve of people skipping Church for some sporting event. But that is their choice. I'm not going to ask the US to pass a law making church attendance mandatory.
I don't approve of people refusing to date people of another race, just because they are another race. But that is their choice. It would be impossible to "force" someone to find someone of another race attractive, even if we tried, and I wouldn't want to try.
I don't approve of porn. But I am not about to sit here and say that someone else is not allowed to use it within the confines of their own home, as long as it doesn't affect anyone else.
If you tell me, "Okay, I get what you're saying, and because of some of the dangers to society at large, I'm still against keeping it legal," I would accept that, and agree to disagree. But that's not what you're saying. You're saying that you want it to be illegal because you don't like it. Sorry, that I cannot accept. "Not liking" something is not a good enough reason to want to make it illegal.
If it were, I'm pretty sure Brussel sprouts would have been outlawed centuries ago.
And yes, you do have to justify that to me, or risk being seen as a selfish idiot who doesn't understand anything about the American legal system. Now, I know you are neither selfish nor an idiot -- I know you are a loving, Christian person who, based on your writing, is probably above average intelligence. That is why I'm making it an issue. If I thought you were just an idiot, I'd let it go, figuring you just couldn't figure it out. I know you're smarter than that.
If you want it to be illegal, you are in support of taking rights away, by definition.
Just to reiterate, I do NOT think you're wrong to hate porn. It is disgusting. Personally, I don't understand what men who do enjoy it see in it ... What little I've seen is either boring or gross on the level of watching a doctor operate. No thanks.
And, as I said before, if you were to come out and say, "Okay, I understand that making it illegal is restricting a freedom, but I feel, because of the damage porn does to our society, the risks of keeping it legal are greater than the risks of limiting this particular freedom" -- Well, I would disagree with you, but that would be an opinion of yours, not a fact, so you wouldn't be "wrong." Yes, you have said enough to support that position.
Where I draw the line is when you make false statements, like "I am not trying to limit people's rights," when clearly you are, or "Why are you saying that it's a bad thing for me to hate porn," which I have never said nor implied, and in fact have said the opposite several times.
There's nothing wrong with having an emotional reaction to some issue. I get emotional about a lot of stuff. It's what makes us human. And what makes us mature humans is being able to recognize logic within that emotion, rather than throw all sense out the window.