Sarah Palin Warned in 2008 Russia Might Invade Ukraine if Obama Wins Election
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instead the real facists are the pro russian militants in crimea and parts of eastern ukraine...in one crimean city the russian occupiers let people get away with painting 'death to the jews' on a synagogue...
(JTA) — Swastikas and the phrase “Death to the Jews” were painted on a synagogue in the Crimea region of southern Ukraine.
The graffiti was found Friday on the door and facade of the Reform Ner Tamid synagogue in Simferopol, the Russian-Israeli news site izrus.co.il reported. No suspects have been identified.
the claim that ukraine's new government has fascist leanings is both exaggerated and hypocritical... you would think ukraine's jews would be the first to sound warnings against a neo nazi regime...but instead ukraine's jewish leaders are siding with the new government...and denying that their synagogues have been attacked by activists...in fact their main worry has been anti semitic violence staged by the pro russian elements... it is also worth pointing out that the new government has the support of a majority in ukraine's parliament...including many members of the party that controlled the previous government which russia supported without expressing any concerns about anti semitism...
Svoboda lawmakers have regularly used the pejorative “zhyd,” which is equivalent to “kike,” to describe Jews.
Haaretz
Ukrainian Jews worry that rise of Svoboda party will bring anti-Semitism back into vogue
KIEV, Ukraine (JTA) — Marching in formation, six young men in dark jackets approach an anti-government rally in Cherkasy, a city some 125 miles southeast of Kiev.
At the appointed moment, they remove their windbreakers to reveal white T-shirts emblazoned with the words “Beat the kikes.” Their jackets carry the name of Svoboda, the ultranationalist Ukrainian political party.
JTA
(JTA) — A Ukrainian ultranationalist movement is organizing a march in Uman against the presence of Jewish pilgrims there, Ukrainian media reported.
“The Hasidim colonize Uman, with help from authorities,” Yuri Botnar of the Svoboda party was quoted as telling the news site timeua.com on Monday. Botnar, the local representative of Svoboda in Uman, said he was organizing a march under the banner “Uman without Hassidim” on Sept. 12.
The April 6 rally in Cherkasy, a city 100 miles southeast of Kiev, turned violent after six men took off their jackets to reveal T-shirts emblazoned with the words “Beat the Kikes” and “Svoboda,” the name of the Ukrainian ultranationalist movement and the Ukrainian word for “freedom."
– Jewish Telegraphic Agency, April 12, 2013
– Jewish Telegraphic Agency, April 12, 2013
While most of the Western media describe the current crisis in Ukraine as a confrontation between authoritarianism and democracy, many of the shock troops who have manned barricades in Kiev and the western city of Lviv these past months represent a dark page in the country’s history and have little interest in either democracy or the liberalism of Western Europe and the United States.
“You’d never know from most of the reporting that far-right nationalists and fascists have been at the heart of the protests and attacks on government buildings,” reports Seumas Milne of the British Guardian. The most prominent of the groups has been the ultra-right-wing Svoboda or “Freedom” Party.
The Nation
“We have seen the work of neo-Nazis in Ukraine,” Putin said. “They and anti-Semites are rampant in Ukraine today.”
Putin seemed to be referencing the prominent role in the Kiev protests of Svoboda, a xenophobic political party whose members have referred to Jews as “kikes.”
JTA
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In Lithuania in World War Two, nasty German fascists could not get along with nasty Lithuanian fascists, because, while the German fascists insisted on burying their Jewish victims, the Lithuanian fascists refused to engage in the supposed indignity of doing so, preferring to leave their victims dead, for others to bury. So they couldn't get along.
R
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(JTA) — Swastikas and the phrase “Death to the Jews” were painted on a synagogue in the Crimea region of southern Ukraine.
The graffiti was found Friday on the door and facade of the Reform Ner Tamid synagogue in Simferopol, the Russian-Israeli news site izrus.co.il reported. No suspects have been identified.
The Simon Wiesenthal Center and other Jewish organizations have condemned the glorification in Ukraine of Bandera, whose troops are believed to have killed thousands of Jews when they were allies of the Nazis in 1941.
Svoboda lawmakers have regularly used the pejorative “zhyd,” which is equivalent to “kike,” to describe Jews.
Haaretz
Ukrainian Jews worry that rise of Svoboda party will bring anti-Semitism back into vogue
KIEV, Ukraine (JTA) — Marching in formation, six young men in dark jackets approach an anti-government rally in Cherkasy, a city some 125 miles southeast of Kiev.
At the appointed moment, they remove their windbreakers to reveal white T-shirts emblazoned with the words “Beat the kikes.” Their jackets carry the name of Svoboda, the ultranationalist Ukrainian political party.
JTA
(JTA) — A Ukrainian ultranationalist movement is organizing a march in Uman against the presence of Jewish pilgrims there, Ukrainian media reported.
“The Hasidim colonize Uman, with help from authorities,” Yuri Botnar of the Svoboda party was quoted as telling the news site timeua.com on Monday. Botnar, the local representative of Svoboda in Uman, said he was organizing a march under the banner “Uman without Hassidim” on Sept. 12.
While most of the Western media describe the current crisis in Ukraine as a confrontation between authoritarianism and democracy, many of the shock troops who have manned barricades in Kiev and the western city of Lviv these past months represent a dark page in the country’s history and have little interest in either democracy or the liberalism of Western Europe and the United States.
“You’d never know from most of the reporting that far-right nationalists and fascists have been at the heart of the protests and attacks on government buildings,” reports Seumas Milne of the British Guardian. The most prominent of the groups has been the ultra-right-wing Svoboda or “Freedom” Party.
The Nation
“We have seen the work of neo-Nazis in Ukraine,” Putin said. “They and anti-Semites are rampant in Ukraine today.”
Putin seemed to be referencing the prominent role in the Kiev protests of Svoboda, a xenophobic political party whose members have referred to Jews as “kikes.”
JTA
(JTA) — Swastikas and the phrase “Death to the Jews” were painted on a synagogue in the Crimea region of southern Ukraine.
The graffiti was found Friday on the door and facade of the Reform Ner Tamid synagogue in Simferopol, the Russian-Israeli news site izrus.co.il reported. No suspects have been identified.
The Simon Wiesenthal Center and other Jewish organizations have condemned the glorification in Ukraine of Bandera, whose troops are believed to have killed thousands of Jews when they were allies of the Nazis in 1941.
Svoboda lawmakers have regularly used the pejorative “zhyd,” which is equivalent to “kike,” to describe Jews.
Haaretz
Ukrainian Jews worry that rise of Svoboda party will bring anti-Semitism back into vogue
KIEV, Ukraine (JTA) — Marching in formation, six young men in dark jackets approach an anti-government rally in Cherkasy, a city some 125 miles southeast of Kiev.
At the appointed moment, they remove their windbreakers to reveal white T-shirts emblazoned with the words “Beat the kikes.” Their jackets carry the name of Svoboda, the ultranationalist Ukrainian political party.
JTA
(JTA) — A Ukrainian ultranationalist movement is organizing a march in Uman against the presence of Jewish pilgrims there, Ukrainian media reported.
“The Hasidim colonize Uman, with help from authorities,” Yuri Botnar of the Svoboda party was quoted as telling the news site timeua.com on Monday. Botnar, the local representative of Svoboda in Uman, said he was organizing a march under the banner “Uman without Hassidim” on Sept. 12.
The April 6 rally in Cherkasy, a city 100 miles southeast of Kiev, turned violent after six men took off their jackets to reveal T-shirts emblazoned with the words “Beat the Kikes” and “Svoboda,” the name of the Ukrainian ultranationalist movement and the Ukrainian word for “freedom."
– Jewish Telegraphic Agency, April 12, 2013
– Jewish Telegraphic Agency, April 12, 2013
While most of the Western media describe the current crisis in Ukraine as a confrontation between authoritarianism and democracy, many of the shock troops who have manned barricades in Kiev and the western city of Lviv these past months represent a dark page in the country’s history and have little interest in either democracy or the liberalism of Western Europe and the United States.
“You’d never know from most of the reporting that far-right nationalists and fascists have been at the heart of the protests and attacks on government buildings,” reports Seumas Milne of the British Guardian. The most prominent of the groups has been the ultra-right-wing Svoboda or “Freedom” Party.
The Nation
“We have seen the work of neo-Nazis in Ukraine,” Putin said. “They and anti-Semites are rampant in Ukraine today.”
Putin seemed to be referencing the prominent role in the Kiev protests of Svoboda, a xenophobic political party whose members have referred to Jews as “kikes.”
JTA
here are some quotations from a statement from the all ukrainian jewish congress on the situation for jews in ukraine...
Throughout the entire period of the events in Ukraine, I have been directly located in Kiev and with my own eyes – not from the TV and from the media – have observed the situation. The Joint Jewish Community in Ukraine and the All-Ukrainian Jewish Congress all this time have been in constant contact with Jewish communities throughout Ukraine and with law-enforcement agencies, monitoring and studying the situation.
The general situation regarding the Jewish community of Ukraine is tolerant and quiet, there are no massive outbursts or worsening of antisemitism in Ukraine.
The general situation regarding the Jewish community of Ukraine is tolerant and quiet, there are no massive outbursts or worsening of antisemitism in Ukraine.
I personally have communicated with the heads of a whole number of groups that consider themselves radical, who have assured me that no manifestations of anti-Semitism have been or will be planned. Moreover, they emphasized in particular that they will ruthlessly combat such manifestations in their own midst. I want to reiterate: even in this difficult period of civic resistance, there have been no grounds to claim any serious incidents of anti-Semitism in Ukraine!
Thus, I categorically refute the statements appearing in a number of foreign media outlets of facts of massive anti-Semitism and xenophobia in Ukraine that do not correspond to reality!
The whipping up of the situation around this issue is of a provocative nature and does not contribute to a calm life for the Jewish community of Ukraine.
Thus, I categorically refute the statements appearing in a number of foreign media outlets of facts of massive anti-Semitism and xenophobia in Ukraine that do not correspond to reality!
The whipping up of the situation around this issue is of a provocative nature and does not contribute to a calm life for the Jewish community of Ukraine.
to put that into perspective...the main openly fascist party in russia...the liberal democratic party of russia...holds over 12% of the seats in russia's parliament...and their leader is actually the vice chairman of the lower house of the russian parliament... yet i don't see putin's supporters warning of russia's imminent descent into neo fascism...
P
having taken some time to do more reading on the issues based on what you wrote, i wanted to address a few of the assertions covered in our previous discussion. you make some valid points, that do check out, for example, some jewish leaders are saying they are not alarmed by any antisemitic neo-fascist element from within the ukrainians themselves. some are saying it's non-existent!
i found this very surprising, since (as i posted), there are other jewish commentators saying the opposite.
the issue of jewish citizens of the region being the most able to spot fascism truthfully hadn't occurred to me until you suggested it, and backed it up with quotations. the notion seemed reasonable, but as you saw from the commentators i posted (and there are many others we can look at), there appears to widely differing opinions on that within the jewish communities, both inside the region and outside.
so i tried to determine primarily the "right/left" leanings of the writers to see where any biases might be lodged. this wasn't very fruitful, and in fact added some credence to my own position that this not a left/right issue.
it does appear to be an historical/ethnic conflict exacerbated by modern affilations, changing alliances and regime changes.
i suggest the west is as responsible for subversions of eastern regimes as any that take place within eastern nations themselves.
it's complicated to say the least.
i followed your citations and it is true there appears to be a portion of jewish commentators making clear proclamations that there were/are no serious threats from non-russian fascists in the ukraine conflict.
would you agree that the quotations i posted are also from jewish spokesmen on the ukraine issue? they say the opposite of the quotations you chose. why the jewish leaders disagree on the issue, i'm not sure.
however, if the jewish community in ukraine itself is not concerned, and in fact is downplaying or outright denying there is any danger from the the far-right Svoboda party holding key posts in the new ukrainian government (which will make it easy for them to consolidate more power), this is something to be kept in mind.
as you mentioned, they should be able to recognize fascism.
Svoboda may not hold large numbers of seats (as your 8% indicated) but their positions are key and represent real power. their open and public, published and provocative slurs (K****) are very disturbing as far as i am concerned.
having said all that, i was hoping you could address a few questions i'm wrestling with on this matter, as you seem to be well-informed, although clearly biased against anything russian. please don't take this as an insult, as we all have biases based on both real life experiences and our education and study (or lack of it), myself included.
at the end of the day, i don't care who ends up being the fascists, just that we clearly identify them based on real facts. and the do need to be identified. if they are ethnic russians (putin in particular), so be it. but we would want to see plenty of evidence.
we do know that putin expelled and punished some "oligarchs" who are knon to have been looting russia, and we know ukraine has some as well. don't all nations? of course. we have our own. we also know putin got tough on homosexual propagandizing and what he described as assaults on family values. now this may be a ruse to crack down, or it may be what he says it is. one thing i do know, christians in the US and the west are always clamoring for these very things. but putin somehow doing it makes him a fascist?
possibly. but i personally would like to see a little less gay propoganda aimed at children. again, i have biases as well.
this is from CNN Opinion: Rein in Ukraine's neo-fascists - CNN.com
Rein in Ukraine's neo-fascists
By David Speedie
There are some known facts: First, far-right, anti-Semitic, anti-Russian and openly fascist groups have existed and do exist as a blight on modern Ukraine. A 2012 European Parliament resolution condemned the main -- but by no means most extreme -- ultra-right party, Svoboda, as "racist, anti-Semitic and xenophobic."
i was unable to determine if david speedie is just expressing his own bias.
and....there's the matter of your position on the vandalized synagogue...
there's no way you could know and state categorically this is the reason there have been no suspects identified - that russia doesn't care about antisemitism.
just saying "russia" includes millions of diverse people, and i have no doubt many of them do care about antisemitism. do you mean to say all ethnic russians are antisemitic?
i don't think a russian nationalist (and ethnic/racial) leaning toward hatred of jews has been demonstrated, as we saw in the conflicting comments by leaders of the jewish communities we each posted.
more obviously, and fairly, i would propose that in the midst of a serious conflict involving several countries and millions of people, do we expect that a case of vandalism (however vile) is going to be on the top of the case files for investigation ("suspects identified")?
there is undoubtedly hateful graffiti everywhere in the region, many hating on others whoever they are.
so your comment was a little disappointing in that it didn't advance your factual case, and actually revealed your bias.
which is not intended as an insult, just a reminder that we all have biases.
well, you would expect to see putin's detractors warning of that. which is what we do see. yourself among them.
but the questions remain, is the truth somewhere in the middle?
is it really our concern in the US?
should our leaders be so quickly mouthing off about the issue and threatening, yet again?
in other words, can we really have this debate without considering the astonishing claims from the west (US & EU) of our supposed democratic, reasonable, freedom-loving and peacekeeping activity around the globe which we know to be untrue this century?
i have some serious concerns about our own leaders and their remarks and clear intention to interfere in the internal affairs of the nations in question.
this article by mark lippman about stephen cohen's opinions includes a transcript of the intercepted phone call between Victoria Nuland, Assistant Secretary of State for European Affairs, and Geoffrey R. Pyatt, US Ambassador to Ukraine.
what do you make of it?
THU FEB 20, 2014 Stephen Cohen accuses Obama Administration of Coup Attempt in Ukraine
Mark Lippman
Stephen Cohen accuses Obama Administration of Coup Attempt in Ukraine
i found this very surprising, since (as i posted), there are other jewish commentators saying the opposite.
the issue of jewish citizens of the region being the most able to spot fascism truthfully hadn't occurred to me until you suggested it, and backed it up with quotations. the notion seemed reasonable, but as you saw from the commentators i posted (and there are many others we can look at), there appears to widely differing opinions on that within the jewish communities, both inside the region and outside.
so i tried to determine primarily the "right/left" leanings of the writers to see where any biases might be lodged. this wasn't very fruitful, and in fact added some credence to my own position that this not a left/right issue.
it does appear to be an historical/ethnic conflict exacerbated by modern affilations, changing alliances and regime changes.
i suggest the west is as responsible for subversions of eastern regimes as any that take place within eastern nations themselves.
it's complicated to say the least.
i followed your citations and it is true there appears to be a portion of jewish commentators making clear proclamations that there were/are no serious threats from non-russian fascists in the ukraine conflict.
here are some quotations from a statement from the all ukrainian jewish congress on the situation for jews in ukraine...
however, if the jewish community in ukraine itself is not concerned, and in fact is downplaying or outright denying there is any danger from the the far-right Svoboda party holding key posts in the new ukrainian government (which will make it easy for them to consolidate more power), this is something to be kept in mind.
as you mentioned, they should be able to recognize fascism.
Svoboda may not hold large numbers of seats (as your 8% indicated) but their positions are key and represent real power. their open and public, published and provocative slurs (K****) are very disturbing as far as i am concerned.
having said all that, i was hoping you could address a few questions i'm wrestling with on this matter, as you seem to be well-informed, although clearly biased against anything russian. please don't take this as an insult, as we all have biases based on both real life experiences and our education and study (or lack of it), myself included.
at the end of the day, i don't care who ends up being the fascists, just that we clearly identify them based on real facts. and the do need to be identified. if they are ethnic russians (putin in particular), so be it. but we would want to see plenty of evidence.
we do know that putin expelled and punished some "oligarchs" who are knon to have been looting russia, and we know ukraine has some as well. don't all nations? of course. we have our own. we also know putin got tough on homosexual propagandizing and what he described as assaults on family values. now this may be a ruse to crack down, or it may be what he says it is. one thing i do know, christians in the US and the west are always clamoring for these very things. but putin somehow doing it makes him a fascist?
possibly. but i personally would like to see a little less gay propoganda aimed at children. again, i have biases as well.
this is from CNN Opinion: Rein in Ukraine's neo-fascists - CNN.com
Rein in Ukraine's neo-fascists
By David Speedie
There are some known facts: First, far-right, anti-Semitic, anti-Russian and openly fascist groups have existed and do exist as a blight on modern Ukraine. A 2012 European Parliament resolution condemned the main -- but by no means most extreme -- ultra-right party, Svoboda, as "racist, anti-Semitic and xenophobic."
i was unable to determine if david speedie is just expressing his own bias.
and....there's the matter of your position on the vandalized synagogue...
simferopol is occupied by russian troops...who claim to be there to protect the rights of minorities among other things...the reason 'no suspects have been identified' in the case of the vandalized synagogue is because russia doesn't actually care about anti semitism...
just saying "russia" includes millions of diverse people, and i have no doubt many of them do care about antisemitism. do you mean to say all ethnic russians are antisemitic?
i don't think a russian nationalist (and ethnic/racial) leaning toward hatred of jews has been demonstrated, as we saw in the conflicting comments by leaders of the jewish communities we each posted.
more obviously, and fairly, i would propose that in the midst of a serious conflict involving several countries and millions of people, do we expect that a case of vandalism (however vile) is going to be on the top of the case files for investigation ("suspects identified")?
there is undoubtedly hateful graffiti everywhere in the region, many hating on others whoever they are.
so your comment was a little disappointing in that it didn't advance your factual case, and actually revealed your bias.
which is not intended as an insult, just a reminder that we all have biases.
to put that into perspective...the main openly fascist party in russia...the liberal democratic party of russia...holds over 12% of the seats in russia's parliament...and their leader is actually the vice chairman of the lower house of the russian parliament... yet i don't see putin's supporters warning of russia's imminent descent into neo fascism...
but the questions remain, is the truth somewhere in the middle?
is it really our concern in the US?
should our leaders be so quickly mouthing off about the issue and threatening, yet again?
in other words, can we really have this debate without considering the astonishing claims from the west (US & EU) of our supposed democratic, reasonable, freedom-loving and peacekeeping activity around the globe which we know to be untrue this century?
i have some serious concerns about our own leaders and their remarks and clear intention to interfere in the internal affairs of the nations in question.
this article by mark lippman about stephen cohen's opinions includes a transcript of the intercepted phone call between Victoria Nuland, Assistant Secretary of State for European Affairs, and Geoffrey R. Pyatt, US Ambassador to Ukraine.
what do you make of it?
THU FEB 20, 2014 Stephen Cohen accuses Obama Administration of Coup Attempt in Ukraine
Mark Lippman
Stephen Cohen accuses Obama Administration of Coup Attempt in Ukraine