Z
Max, you write so much. I can't process all that and stay on point. It's not something I can do.
I'll open this in my laptop after I get my son and respond to this and the previous.
I'll open this in my laptop after I get my son and respond to this and the previous.
Zi,
I completely agree with the statement I underlined.
I think everyone here agrees.
I also appreciate your honesty in discussing your past, and your struggles.
We all have past struggles, and we all have current struggles... we're all made of the same stuff.
Let me point out a few things:
Distinctions between different levels (categories) where sin can occur:
1. Homosexuality, or any sin, is just the manifestation of an inward problem... but can it grow into something more? Can it creep out into society, into the culture, into our psychology, into academia, into the legal system?
- I think the bible, and secular history, both show that sin is a thing which grows.
- It grows within a person, and it grows within a culture and society.
- An individual's sin problem certainly IS a personal problem for that individual - but sin also grows beyond the individual, into culture and society, thus creating ENTIRELY NEW problems and issues.
3. Differentiating the Problems:
SIN, any SIN, often OPERATES AT MULTIPLE LEVELS, and each of those levels creates it's own unique problems... and those LEVELS, with their DISTINCT ISSUES, all have to be addressed SEPARATELY.
Three common levels, where we often see sin operating are:
A. Personal / Individual
B. Legal / Society
C. Social / Cultural
Each of these levels comes with it's own distinct issues, it's own problems, it's own debates, and it's OWN BIBLICAL RESPONSE.
The issues arising at different levels are NOT THE SAME.
We need to deal with them separately and distinctly.
We need to debate them separately and distinctly.
We need to refrain from confusing them.
WHEN WE CONFUSE THESE DIFFERENT LEVELS WHERE SIN OPERATES,
WE LOSE OUR ABILITY TO IDENTIFY THE CORRECT BIBLICAL SOLUTION.
Quick example of the need to separate issues, and deal with them differently:
A. Perhaps a Christian is upset about some "political agendas" of the gay rights movement, and then he goes over to talk to his neighbor, who is a gay man. Let's say the Christian is so upset about the political issues, that he starts a fight about gay rights and legal issues, but perhaps the gay neighbor DOESN'T EVEN VOTE, and ISN'T POLITICALLY ACTIVE, and HAS NOTHING TO DO WITH GAY POLITICS... maybe he's just a regular non-political guy struggling with his personal problems.
- This neighbor doesn't need to have a fight about politics, and social issues... he just needs a personal message for his own personal life... he needs the gospel.
B. Conversely, if we ARE dealing with political issues in a political arena... well... we probably need to debate the issues rather than give the audience biblical counseling.
* We need to separate these different areas where sin operates, and deal with these areas differently... they are not the same.
* The BEST WAY to change all of society, is through the gospel and evangelism, however... when talking to people, we need to recognize that POLITICAL ISSUES and PERSONAL ISSUES, are VASTLY DIFFERENT THINGS.
3. Here are these 3 levels addressed in detail.
(There are other levels and areas, but these are 3 common ones).
A. Any particular sin operates at the PERSONAL / INDIVIDUAL level.
This is where a person is struggling with the sin, or perhaps completely overcome by it.
At this level, the person needs the gospel, and love and compassion... but we also need to be honest in talking about sin... because nobody can get saved without first recognizing his sin.
Now, I'm sorry if you've heard angry people beat up homosexuals when presenting the gospel poorly.
But you certainly CAN address sin in an honest way, while also being compassionate and loving.
B. Any particular sin can operate at the LEGAL / SOCIETAL level.
Laws can be written all kinds of ways, and they can address issues well or poorly... but laws DO HAVE EFFECTS on ethical issues, and that's part of life.
Laws can be written to curtail certain sins, and try to lessen them; or laws can be written to promote certain sins, and make them more prominent and likely to spread and do more harm.
But laws DO exist, and they DO address morals and ethics (what christians call sin) and they DO affect the culture and society we live in.
Examples of Common Laws attempting to curtail sin:
- People still drive drunk and hurt others, but we do have laws to attempt to curtail drunk driving, rather than laws to condone and promote drunk driving.
- People still commit burglaries, but we do have laws to attempt to curtail burglaries, rather than laws to condone and promote burglaries.
- People still harm themselves and society through heroine addiction, but we do have laws to attempt to curtail heroine use and sales, rather than laws to condone and promote heroine use and sales.
- Cigarette ads are not even allowed on TV... that is a result of laws intending to curb the spread of nicotine addiction, for the good of society.
* We can debate the effectiveness of any particular laws, that's fine... but we do have laws to deal with ethical issues that harm individuals and society at large... and these laws are usually aimed at curtailing the problems, RATHHER THAN CONDONING THE PROBLEM AND PROMOTING IT.
* We can debate the constitutionality of particular law, that's fine, but we'll ALWAYS have a bunch of laws which all deal with ethics and morality... because THATS WHAT LAWS ARE, THEY ARE ETHICAL BOUNDARIES... therefore the general concept of creating ethical boundaries through laws is not inherently unconstitutional.
(Therefore, limiting someone's "rights" is quite normal, and it's something that every law does every day.)
My point here is NOT to debate all the laws, but to simply point out that ethical issues (sin issues) DO EFFECT SOCIETY & THE LEGAL SYSTEM... and we often have LAWS to curtail them rather than to condone and promote them.
C. Any particular sin can operate at the SOCIAL / CULTURAL level
1. When a sin becomes popular, it WILL work it's way into the culture, naturally, as more and more people want to participate in it, discuss it, and justify it.
2. It is well understood, from the bible, secular history, and everyone's personal experience, that people OFTEN MAKE EFFORTS TO JUSTIFY THEIR SIN... when this begins to occur at the societal level, this JUSTIFICATION creates a huge chain of events.
A. These justifications, by definition, must be both unbiblical, and illogical.
- sin will always be against the Bible
- sin will always be illogical...
on some level it MUST be illogical, as SIN is a thing which HARMS THE DOER... therefore any argument in favor of it is, at some level, illogical
B. These justifications, which are illogical, creep into all areas of life and society
- These justifications creep into art, literature, media.
- These justifications creep into academia, and work their way all the way down to the elementary level.
- These justifications creep into the laws.
- These justifications creep into all social areas, like conversations with friends, social media, and family get togethers.
- These justification creep into all areas where thinking occurs... even the churches.
C. These justifications, which are unbiblical and illogical, MUST, BY NECESSITY, create problems with the rationality and thinking processes of the entire culture.
- When you accept a premise which is illogical, this premise does not exist in a vacuum... a person has many other beliefs, and all of these beliefs must be MADE TO FIT with this belief with is illogical.
- logical beliefs cannot affix themselves perfectly to illogical beliefs... so if you want to hold an illogical belief, then all the beliefs which adjoin it must be ADJUSTED TO FIT.
- This is much the same as placing an irregular stone in a wall full of clean square stones... all the stones around it would no long fit correctly; all the other stones would have to be adjusted, changed, recarved, tilted etc. in order to fit around the bad stone.
- good stones cannot fit around a bad stone without all of them needing to be adjusted - and likewise you cannot have an ILLOGICAL FOUNDATIONAL BELIEF without the NECESSITY to adjust all the beliefs around it, to make them all fit.
* Once you adjust all your thinking to FIT AROUND an illogical foundational belief... you are filled with bad thinking and logical errors... you no longer think rationally on many issues.
I completely agree with the statement I underlined.
I think everyone here agrees.
I also appreciate your honesty in discussing your past, and your struggles.
We all have past struggles, and we all have current struggles... we're all made of the same stuff.
Let me point out a few things:
Distinctions between different levels (categories) where sin can occur:
1. Homosexuality, or any sin, is just the manifestation of an inward problem... but can it grow into something more? Can it creep out into society, into the culture, into our psychology, into academia, into the legal system?
- I think the bible, and secular history, both show that sin is a thing which grows.
- It grows within a person, and it grows within a culture and society.
- An individual's sin problem certainly IS a personal problem for that individual - but sin also grows beyond the individual, into culture and society, thus creating ENTIRELY NEW problems and issues.
3. Differentiating the Problems:
SIN, any SIN, often OPERATES AT MULTIPLE LEVELS, and each of those levels creates it's own unique problems... and those LEVELS, with their DISTINCT ISSUES, all have to be addressed SEPARATELY.
Three common levels, where we often see sin operating are:
A. Personal / Individual
B. Legal / Society
C. Social / Cultural
Each of these levels comes with it's own distinct issues, it's own problems, it's own debates, and it's OWN BIBLICAL RESPONSE.
The issues arising at different levels are NOT THE SAME.
We need to deal with them separately and distinctly.
We need to debate them separately and distinctly.
We need to refrain from confusing them.
WHEN WE CONFUSE THESE DIFFERENT LEVELS WHERE SIN OPERATES,
WE LOSE OUR ABILITY TO IDENTIFY THE CORRECT BIBLICAL SOLUTION.
Quick example of the need to separate issues, and deal with them differently:
A. Perhaps a Christian is upset about some "political agendas" of the gay rights movement, and then he goes over to talk to his neighbor, who is a gay man. Let's say the Christian is so upset about the political issues, that he starts a fight about gay rights and legal issues, but perhaps the gay neighbor DOESN'T EVEN VOTE, and ISN'T POLITICALLY ACTIVE, and HAS NOTHING TO DO WITH GAY POLITICS... maybe he's just a regular non-political guy struggling with his personal problems.
- This neighbor doesn't need to have a fight about politics, and social issues... he just needs a personal message for his own personal life... he needs the gospel.
B. Conversely, if we ARE dealing with political issues in a political arena... well... we probably need to debate the issues rather than give the audience biblical counseling.
* We need to separate these different areas where sin operates, and deal with these areas differently... they are not the same.
* The BEST WAY to change all of society, is through the gospel and evangelism, however... when talking to people, we need to recognize that POLITICAL ISSUES and PERSONAL ISSUES, are VASTLY DIFFERENT THINGS.
3. Here are these 3 levels addressed in detail.
(There are other levels and areas, but these are 3 common ones).
A. Any particular sin operates at the PERSONAL / INDIVIDUAL level.
This is where a person is struggling with the sin, or perhaps completely overcome by it.
At this level, the person needs the gospel, and love and compassion... but we also need to be honest in talking about sin... because nobody can get saved without first recognizing his sin.
Now, I'm sorry if you've heard angry people beat up homosexuals when presenting the gospel poorly.
But you certainly CAN address sin in an honest way, while also being compassionate and loving.
B. Any particular sin can operate at the LEGAL / SOCIETAL level.
Laws can be written all kinds of ways, and they can address issues well or poorly... but laws DO HAVE EFFECTS on ethical issues, and that's part of life.
Laws can be written to curtail certain sins, and try to lessen them; or laws can be written to promote certain sins, and make them more prominent and likely to spread and do more harm.
But laws DO exist, and they DO address morals and ethics (what christians call sin) and they DO affect the culture and society we live in.
Examples of Common Laws attempting to curtail sin:
- People still drive drunk and hurt others, but we do have laws to attempt to curtail drunk driving, rather than laws to condone and promote drunk driving.
- People still commit burglaries, but we do have laws to attempt to curtail burglaries, rather than laws to condone and promote burglaries.
- People still harm themselves and society through heroine addiction, but we do have laws to attempt to curtail heroine use and sales, rather than laws to condone and promote heroine use and sales.
- Cigarette ads are not even allowed on TV... that is a result of laws intending to curb the spread of nicotine addiction, for the good of society.
* We can debate the effectiveness of any particular laws, that's fine... but we do have laws to deal with ethical issues that harm individuals and society at large... and these laws are usually aimed at curtailing the problems, RATHHER THAN CONDONING THE PROBLEM AND PROMOTING IT.
* We can debate the constitutionality of particular law, that's fine, but we'll ALWAYS have a bunch of laws which all deal with ethics and morality... because THATS WHAT LAWS ARE, THEY ARE ETHICAL BOUNDARIES... therefore the general concept of creating ethical boundaries through laws is not inherently unconstitutional.
(Therefore, limiting someone's "rights" is quite normal, and it's something that every law does every day.)
My point here is NOT to debate all the laws, but to simply point out that ethical issues (sin issues) DO EFFECT SOCIETY & THE LEGAL SYSTEM... and we often have LAWS to curtail them rather than to condone and promote them.
C. Any particular sin can operate at the SOCIAL / CULTURAL level
1. When a sin becomes popular, it WILL work it's way into the culture, naturally, as more and more people want to participate in it, discuss it, and justify it.
2. It is well understood, from the bible, secular history, and everyone's personal experience, that people OFTEN MAKE EFFORTS TO JUSTIFY THEIR SIN... when this begins to occur at the societal level, this JUSTIFICATION creates a huge chain of events.
A. These justifications, by definition, must be both unbiblical, and illogical.
- sin will always be against the Bible
- sin will always be illogical...
on some level it MUST be illogical, as SIN is a thing which HARMS THE DOER... therefore any argument in favor of it is, at some level, illogical
B. These justifications, which are illogical, creep into all areas of life and society
- These justifications creep into art, literature, media.
- These justifications creep into academia, and work their way all the way down to the elementary level.
- These justifications creep into the laws.
- These justifications creep into all social areas, like conversations with friends, social media, and family get togethers.
- These justification creep into all areas where thinking occurs... even the churches.
C. These justifications, which are unbiblical and illogical, MUST, BY NECESSITY, create problems with the rationality and thinking processes of the entire culture.
- When you accept a premise which is illogical, this premise does not exist in a vacuum... a person has many other beliefs, and all of these beliefs must be MADE TO FIT with this belief with is illogical.
- logical beliefs cannot affix themselves perfectly to illogical beliefs... so if you want to hold an illogical belief, then all the beliefs which adjoin it must be ADJUSTED TO FIT.
- This is much the same as placing an irregular stone in a wall full of clean square stones... all the stones around it would no long fit correctly; all the other stones would have to be adjusted, changed, recarved, tilted etc. in order to fit around the bad stone.
- good stones cannot fit around a bad stone without all of them needing to be adjusted - and likewise you cannot have an ILLOGICAL FOUNDATIONAL BELIEF without the NECESSITY to adjust all the beliefs around it, to make them all fit.
* Once you adjust all your thinking to FIT AROUND an illogical foundational belief... you are filled with bad thinking and logical errors... you no longer think rationally on many issues.
