A Traditional Gordian Knot

[Mitspa]

It seems like you may be lumping me in with "some ladies...." but may be backing away from this when I ask you about it directly.

As to the idea of a husband being right or wrong....let me reframe this.

I don't really see it as an issue of right or wrong...not in the sense that you mean. Like it's a zero-sum game. It seems more a matter of both parties being loving and self-sacrificing toward each other. (gypsygirl explained this well in her post).

I'm curious about the need to have women admit that men are "right?" I don't even get what that means. Do you mean that women should affirm men more? Or that some women don't affirm men enough? Or that some women think men unworthy of affirmation no matter what a man's behavior?

The whole point of your thread was basically what or who is "right" Now if the term is "wrong" just work with me, remember Im just a guy

 

[Mitspa]

See men cant even use the right terms to communicate

 

[Olerica]

oh sir. i've never implied that fact. i would straight out say it. : D

in fact, when i get married, i hope to resolve all differences with squirt guns, and occasionally nerf gun battles.

We used bamboo practice swords... and squirt guns. Good fun.

 

[PoetMary]

The whole point of your thread was basically what or who is "right" Now if the term is "wrong" just work with me, remember Im just a guy

I love it when you tell me what my own point was.

That's actually not the point of this thread. The point of the thread was to present a rather nuanced situation.

Here's what I find interesting:

When I've asked to to post some scripture to support your ideas, you don't.
You imply that I somehow dislike men, or disrespect men, or think all men are wrong....then back away when I am direct with you about it.
You fail to address any of the questions that I asked re: the need to have women admit that men are right, but proceed to tell me what my own intentions are without any inquiry.

It's all very curious.

 

[PoetMary]

See men cant even use the right terms to communicate

Perhaps you missed the bit in my post where I said, "I don't really see it as an issue of right or wrong..."

That was me presenting my perspective. The fact that my perspective is different than yours makes no statement about any of your word usage. It was simply explaining how I would characterize the situation.

Again...very curious.

 

[Mitspa]

I love it when you tell me what my own point was.

That's actually not the point of this thread. The point of the thread was to present a rather nuanced situation.

Here's what I find interesting:

When I've asked to to post some scripture to support your ideas, you don't.
You imply that I somehow dislike men, or disrespect men, or think all men are wrong....then back away when I am direct with you about it.
You fail to address any of the questions that I asked re: the need to have women admit that men are right, but proceed to tell me what my own intentions are without any inquiry.

It's all very curious.

I already know that im wrong, I knew I could not be right when I replied to your thread...but I just thought I would give it a honest shot.
You know guys have feelings too

 

[ChandlerFan]

I'm sorry, I just want to be really honest. This thread seems to be kicking a horse that has been beaten to a pulp in other threads. And I really don't try to project poor assumptions onto other people, but my impression of this thread is just that it was created for the purpose of arguing some more. I think we need to let it go. This type of thing sucks life out of the forum. It's not beneficial at all.

 

[Mitspa]

Let me answer your OP again...she is right and he is wrong

 

[Liamson]

So much tension.

So much reading into things.

So much more to this than meets the eye, young Skywalker.

 

[PoetMary]

I already know that im wrong, I knew I could not be right when I replied to your thread...but I just thought I would give it a honest shot.
You know guys have feelings too

Yeah...I have no idea what to say to it. It presumes that my intentions were to make men "wrong." Apparently, it doesn't matter if I accurately report my underlying motives, this perception has to be the accurate perception.

It is interesting, however, that my scenario was framed in terms of what the WIFE should do.

I wanted to find out what people would do if they were in that particular scenario...or if they were advising someone in that scenario.

There was no presumption of "wrong" on the husband's part. I don't really see it as a black and white issue. I think it's very possible that a husband could have excellent reasons for encouraging his wife to go back to work outside the home.

Imagine, if you will, a woman who is suffering from postpartum depression. A man observes his wife becoming more and more anxious and unhappy as she spends significant periods of time alone dealing with the demands of a young toddler. He prays about it and realizes that his wife might benefit from being back in her occupation. Since there are relatives around willing to step in and take over the childcare as she works, he suggests she goes back to work.

Now, wifey is already feeling down and the idea that she should work and not be a full-time mother (which she had always idealized in her head) makes her feel like a failure. She wants to stay at home to "prove" that she's a good wife and mother...the one she always imagined. In other words, she's a bit of a perfectionist and she's determined to be the "perfect" mother.

Is it possible that her husband, who isn't looking at it through the lenses of some ideal, might see that going back to work would be BETTER for her in these given circumstances?

Um...yeah...it's totally possible.

So, you see, I didn't frame it as a "isn't this husband an obvious jerk and shouldn't we all recognize it?" That, btw, is far too easy to do. It's easy to create a framework where any given person or group of people is vilified while others are extolled.

Maybe it's naive of me, but I believe that most husbands and wives actually do care for each other. Maybe I should have begun the scenario with the premise of "Look, these people actually do love each other." I didn't because I thought that would be an understood given. I just wanted to present a somewhat complicated situation. I think husbands and wives negotiate stuff like this all the time. And much of these "negotiations" involve wrangling with pride and laying it aside for the sake of the marriage.

 

[gypsygirl]

I'm sorry, I just want to be really honest. This thread seems to be kicking a horse that has been beaten to a pulp in other threads. And I really don't try to project poor assumptions onto other people, but my impression of this thread is just that it was created for the purpose of arguing some more. I think we need to let it go. This type of thing sucks life out of the forum. It's not beneficial at all.

i kind of agree, but only because these threads seem to be unable to keep from being derailed AND we have had quite a bit of this lately. : )

i think often, threads are created because we're trying to establish and learn, determine what godly behavior looks like ON A PRACTICAL LEVEL. we have lots of platitudes and generalities, but often lack the the granular detail of what these steps and choices resemble. i think that is why we have so many threads asking for this kind of advice.

and in the defense of poetmary, i'm guessing she has participated in some of these conversations because she is "chewing on" or curious about these kind of issues, learning or trying to establish something personal to her for which input and conversation would potentially be valuable (something that i will observe LOTS of folks doing, myself included) i don't think they necessarily start for the purpose of fighting. there is nothing in her OP that makes me think she's trying to do that, as that scenario, and the reverse of that (swap the genders, but same situation--mom wants to work, but dad doesn't think she should) are very real issues in the body of Christ.

unfortunately, i think we believe that the best case scenario can result from it. and sometimes it does. but sadly, too often it doesn't. and because of the limitations of online communication, conversation intended to be void of emotional language (just the facts, ma'am : ) ) becomes too personal because we are emotional beings with history and experience. therefore, it's quite difficult to avoid perception-rich bias. : )

 

[Lynx]

My first thought from the first post was "who is the relative who is going to keep the child and how does this relative feel about being stuck with the kid?"

My second question was "How broke are they? Did they have to give up internet and cable? That's what people usually think of as 'broke' these days. Or are they at the point where they're eating beans every meal and about to lose their home?"

My third, fourth, fifth and sixth thoughts were about whether the woman was concerned about the child or just didn't want to go back to work, how much it would cost to send the kid to day care versus how much the woman would earn, what it would benefit the wife socially and emotionally to get back in the workplace versus the child benefiting from mom being there...

So yeah, there are too many questions in this scenario. All couples have to solve this themselves. Sorry, no cut and dried answers.

Now if you asked me why your computer wouldn't recognize a flash drive I could help you out there. How to partition a hard drive, no problem. This question just can't be answered by anyone but the husband and wife in question.

 

[ChandlerFan]

i kind of agree, but only because these threads seem to be unable to keep from being derailed AND we have had quite a bit of this lately. : )

i think often, threads are created because we're trying to establish and learn, determine what godly behavior looks like ON A PRACTICAL LEVEL. we have lots of platitudes and generalities, but often lack the the granular detail of what these steps and choices resemble. i think that is why we have so many threads asking for this kind of advice.

and in the defense of poetmary, i'm guessing she has participated in some of these conversations because she is "chewing on" or curious about these kind of issues, learning or trying to establish something personal to her for which input and conversation would potentially be valuable (something that i will observe LOTS of folks doing, myself included) i don't think they necessarily start for the purpose of fighting. there is nothing in her OP that makes me think she's trying to do that, as that scenario, and the reverse of that (swap the genders, but same situation--mom wants to work, but dad doesn't think she should) are very real issues in the body of Christ.

unfortunately, i think we believe that the best case scenario can result from it. and sometimes it does. but sadly, too often it doesn't. and because of the limitations of online communication, conversation intended to be void of emotional language (just the facts, ma'am : ) ) becomes too personal because we are emotional beings with history and experience. therefore, it's quite difficult to avoid perception-rich bias. : )

And I do understand the value of these conversations, but only if people are willing to be open-minded and not jump to the defensive or be so easily offended. That seems to be a struggle in these threads unfortunately. I'm actually really passionate about this topic, and hopefully someday we can find a way to discuss it more civilly and fairly

 

[gypsygirl]

And I do understand the value of these conversations, but only if people are willing to be open-minded and not jump to the defensive or be so easily offended. That seems to be a struggle in these threads unfortunately. I'm actually really passionate about this topic, and hopefully someday we can find a way to discuss it more civilly and fairly

i cannot agree more highly with your statement. on all points. : )

 

[Oncefallen]

i would insist that we seek the counsel of a pastor, a counselor, or someone who is qualified to help us discuss this matter further, and do so in a productive, loving way where i feel i am being heard, and the concerns my husband is expressing are being fully understood as well.

to me, that kind of stalemate, along with the seriousness of the issue requires help from outside source to help avoid prevent creating a serious injury (or further injury) to the trust and "teamship" of the couple. often these stalemates occur because one or both parties are failing to hear or understand the driving motivation or concerns being expressed, and/or there are other issues at play that are "leaking" in.

You beat me to it.

Within my church each family is assigned to a Shepherding Elder who would be the person she would be appealing to help in the situation. If I know the elders within my church as well as I think I do, the husband in this situation would be getting told to pull his head out of a small orifice that he sits on.

 

[Shannon50]

I agree that this isn't a black and white issue-- sometimes the best way to handle a situation is "allowed" by God-- but still prayer enters in as to which direction is his will--

-- in terms of should this wife submit to her husband---------- what about the rest of the scripture? That a wife should submit to her husband IN THE LORD, and that the husband should LOVE HIS WIFE as Christ loves the Church------

Of course it isn't a black and white issue----- we get ourselves in trouble trying to give simplistic answers to complicated questions...

 

[zeroturbulence]

So imagine there is a husband and wife who have a young toddler. The husband is pressuring the wife to go back to work and leave the toddler in the care of family members. She wants to stay home with the child. She presents various options....working part time, working from home, all of which are rejected by her husband. Her husband insists that she needs to go back to her job away from the home.

What does this woman do? Does she submit to the authority of her husband even though it's violating her conscience, or does she defy her husband and live up to her conscience?

And which decision would make her more "traditional?"

If I was a judge, I would say that unless the husband has a very good reason for why she needs to work a full time job outside the home, she stays and finds work at home (or part time outside if she prefers).

 

[nutella]

Submit to husband since that is what the Word of God says. As much as I think stay at home moms are awesome, it is not a sin to not stay at home.