As a Christian, Have You Ever Told Remarried Couples (Such as Your Parent/Step-Parent) that They Need to Separate Forever?

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JohnDB

Well-known member
Jan 16, 2021
5,770
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#21
Thank you for sharing this, John.

This is a good illustration as to why I personally left my childhood church -- because I was seeing too many things like this going on.

My family has always been very active in the church and people would often and still do confide things to us that were not disclosed to others, which is part of why I often see things differently than a lot of people.

I have to, because I've been given a different perspective.

In cases like this, all I can hope for is that someday God will set everyone, including me, straight.
There actually is a clear path. One set by a Father that is kind and good who wants the entire world for you and every good thing in it.

However,
There are wicked people who want to put rules in place to elevate themselves as being "more holy" and everyone else as unacceptable scum just faking the "good guy" moniker. (Which is crap)
What these holier-than-thou idiots do not realize is that they themselves are the very ones Jesus was talking about when he said "Away from me you doers of iniquity, I never knew you" .

That's why they claimed that they had done so much for God but really never got the message the whole time.

There are among us people who do "better" when married. It's one of those Meyers-Briggs personalities. There are some who don't. All people have the potential for great good or great evil...it just depends on the individual. Scientists have been trying to answer this question for over a century now as to whether it's nature or nurture that determines whether a person is productive, happy and whole or broken and breaking others as they go through life.
And then came along a study in NZ....and even though it was a well run, great study and comprehensive....everyone started attacking it because they didn't like the answers. Especially those who wanted to license unproductive, poor behaviors.

The answers are there....there are sterling silver pins among the chrome ones. Just gotta look harder or listen to one of us who have found those answers.
 

seekingthemindofChrist

Casting down imaginations
Jul 10, 2023
1,178
570
113
#22
There's so much that I could say too, but I'm single so I'd probably be wrong.

I'm happily single though, so I'm going to default to the customary feline behavior of taking a nap on a tree limb until dinner. I'll let the people who have been there hash this one out.
I hear you, Lynx, and the whole tree limb thing does sound very tempting. However, I honestly do not believe that we need to let those "who have been there hash this one out". In other words, we do have scripture as our guide, and I honestly believe that if people seriously considered what it is says on this topic before getting married, then there would be a lot less problems and complaining after people get married.

I am tempted to give a very real biblical example of what I am referring to...
 

seoulsearch

OutWrite Trouble
May 23, 2009
15,218
4,698
113
#23
May I politely and sincerely ask you what the alternative is to following biblical guidelines to the letter?We are given these biblical guidelines for a reason, and to ignore or to alter them, in my estimation, is deadly.
In other words, is a murderer forgiven of murder if he or she continues to murder? Is an adulterer or adulteress forgiven if they continue in their adultery? It seems to me that repenting and bringing forth fruits worthy of repentance is a forgotten or rejected principle in much of professing Christianity, yet it remains as part of the foundational principles of the doctrine of Christ (Hebrews 6:1) just the same.
Every Christian, to some degree, forms their own viewpoints about what "following Biblical guidelines" to the letter is in some way. Many will insist that their viewpoint is the one and only correct way that follows God's will the best, and while I definitely believe that God is unchanging, I also believe He has the wisdom to discern and direct individuals through their individual situations. Life is never without some kind of nuance in most cases, and I believe in God directing us through those nuances.

You asked if the adulteress is forgiven if she continues in adultery.

I immediately thought of those caught up with pornography. Is the person who continues to seek out porn on a regular basis forgiven even if they choose to look and act on it every day for the rest of their life?

This is just my own belief, but I believe choosing porn is a form of fornication/adultery, and unless God heavily told me otherwise, I would not marry someone involved with it. And if he developed an attraction or dependency on porn that he refused to give up while we were married, I would try my best to pray and wait for change. But if it didn't, I would leave, because I would see him as being caught up in adultery, and I would rather be single than married to someone constantly cheating on me.

Many people would say I'm being too extreme or taking things out of context but Jesus said looking at someone with lust is adultery. Am I perfect? No, of course not. But I try to avoid those kinds of materials and would want to be with someone else who is trying to live the same way.

Now on the flip side, people would call me a hypocrite because there are many Christians who do not believe abuse is not grounds for divorce, but I do.

I have talked about these stories often. I grew up in the Lutheran church, and went to their schools kindergarten through graduation, only to illustrate that I became fairly well-acquainted with their teachings and the Bible and what I saw as discrepancies.

Two of the girls at my Lutheran high school while I was there later married and their husbands wound up emptying guns into their heads. The church I grew up in would do everything it could to insist that you to go back to your husband, even with both your eyes blackened.

One girl had gone to "the secular world" for help (a women's shelter) and did everything they told her to get away. They even had helped her find a new apartment he wasn't supposed to know about (I'm pretty sure my old church would NEVER do something like that to help a battered spouse.) But he did find her, and that's where he confronted and killed her "for leaving him."

The other girl was the most popular and well-known in school. She became a local TV personality, so they were seen as the model couple and family of the community. Her husband shot her to death in front of their 3 kids, the oldest of whom was about 11, who was desperately trying to call 911 at the time.

Many of the Christians I have met do not believe that even the most severe abuse is an allowance for divorce, and I've been around a lot of women at my jobs, etc., who were living with daily domestic abuse. I've also read of cases in which the husband was sexually abusing the children and the wife was reluctantly told she could separate from him, but not divorce and certainly never remarry.

For myself, if I had a husband who hit or sexually abused me, the first time would be the last, because I would be gone.

I'm not sticking around to see if there is another time, or if it will escalate into broken bones, shattered faces, and beatings so bad that her eye was popped out of her socket, as I have seen and heard about others going through.

And I know many Christians will condemn me for not "following God's Word to the letter" in this particular way (while also condemning me for being what they see as extreme in my other example,) but I don't believe God wants us to stay in a situation that endangers ourselves or others.

Jesus said that the Sabbath was made for man and that man wasn't made for the Sabbath; likewise, I believe that marriage was created as a blessing to people but I don't believe that God hallows marriage itself above the well-being of the people involved.

Again, I can only claim my beliefs for myself. And as I said before, I believe in the end, God will straighten us all out in the end, which most certainly includes me.

All I can do is live by my own convictions and try my best to encourage others to seek God in everything they do.
 

seekingthemindofChrist

Casting down imaginations
Jul 10, 2023
1,178
570
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#24
You little stinker (said playfully).

You had to go and give me a well thought out response, and now I will respectfully respond in kind (but in two separate responses).
Every Christian, to some degree, forms their own viewpoints about what "following Biblical guidelines" to the letter is in some way. Many will insist that their viewpoint is the one and only correct way that follows God's will the best, and while I definitely believe that God is unchanging, I also believe He has the wisdom to discern and direct individuals through their individual situations. Life is never without some kind of nuance in most cases, and I believe in God directing us through those nuances.

You asked if the adulteress is forgiven if she continues in adultery.
Just to be fair, I asked if the adulterer or the adulteress is forgiven if they continue in adultery.
This is just my own belief, but I believe choosing porn is a form of fornication/adultery, and unless God heavily told me otherwise, I would not marry someone involved with it. And if he developed an attraction or dependency on porn that he refused to give up while we were married, I would try my best to pray and wait for change. But if it didn't, I would leave, because I would see him as being caught up in adultery, and I would rather be single than married to someone constantly cheating on me.

Many people would say I'm being too extreme or taking things out of context but Jesus said looking at someone with lust is adultery. Am I perfect? No, of course not. But I try to avoid those kinds of materials and would want to be with someone else who is trying to live the same way.
I actually agree with what you said here, and this goes back to what I said to TallJake on one of these threads about battling "giants" in our lives. If the person involved in porn is not genuinely battling against that "giant", then they are willfully embracing it instead, and it is deliberate and willful sin, and, like you said, I do believe that it constitutes the sin of adultery.

As far as leaving is concerned, I do believe that certain steps should precede that decision.

First, the offended party should confront the offender one on one.

If the offender does not repent, then two or three witnesses should be called upon to confront the offender as well.

If the offender still does not repent, then the matter should be brought before the church. If that sounds extreme, then it should not. After all, Paul told the church at Corinth to throw the man out who was impenitently having sexual relations with his father's wife, so this is not too sensitive of a topic to be brought before the entire assembly of believers. In fact, in this man's case, his sinful sexual escapades were something that was "reported commonly" (1 Corinthians 5:1). In other words, everybody knew about it, or it was common knowledge.

If the offender still does not repent, then...,

I will try to get to the rest of your response in a little while. I just need to take care of some things first.
 

JohnDB

Well-known member
Jan 16, 2021
5,770
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#25
Every Christian, to some degree, forms their own viewpoints about what "following Biblical guidelines" to the letter is in some way. Many will insist that their viewpoint is the one and only correct way that follows God's will the best, and while I definitely believe that God is unchanging, I also believe He has the wisdom to discern and direct individuals through their individual situations. Life is never without some kind of nuance in most cases, and I believe in God directing us through those nuances.

You asked if the adulteress is forgiven if she continues in adultery.

I immediately thought of those caught up with pornography. Is the person who continues to seek out porn on a regular basis forgiven even if they choose to look and act on it every day for the rest of their life?

This is just my own belief, but I believe choosing porn is a form of fornication/adultery, and unless God heavily told me otherwise, I would not marry someone involved with it. And if he developed an attraction or dependency on porn that he refused to give up while we were married, I would try my best to pray and wait for change. But if it didn't, I would leave, because I would see him as being caught up in adultery, and I would rather be single than married to someone constantly cheating on me.

Many people would say I'm being too extreme or taking things out of context but Jesus said looking at someone with lust is adultery. Am I perfect? No, of course not. But I try to avoid those kinds of materials and would want to be with someone else who is trying to live the same way.

Now on the flip side, people would call me a hypocrite because there are many Christians who do not believe abuse is not grounds for divorce, but I do.

I have talked about these stories often. I grew up in the Lutheran church, and went to their schools kindergarten through graduation, only to illustrate that I became fairly well-acquainted with their teachings and the Bible and what I saw as discrepancies.

Two of the girls at my Lutheran high school while I was there later married and their husbands wound up emptying guns into their heads. The church I grew up in would do everything it could to insist that you to go back to your husband, even with both your eyes blackened.

One girl had gone to "the secular world" for help (a women's shelter) and did everything they told her to get away. They even had helped her find a new apartment he wasn't supposed to know about (I'm pretty sure my old church would NEVER do something like that to help a battered spouse.) But he did find her, and that's where he confronted and killed her "for leaving him."

The other girl was the most popular and well-known in school. She became a local TV personality, so they were seen as the model couple and family of the community. Her husband shot her to death in front of their 3 kids, the oldest of whom was about 11, who was desperately trying to call 911 at the time.

Many of the Christians I have met do not believe that even the most severe abuse is an allowance for divorce, and I've been around a lot of women at my jobs, etc., who were living with daily domestic abuse. I've also read of cases in which the husband was sexually abusing the children and the wife was reluctantly told she could separate from him, but not divorce and certainly never remarry.

For myself, if I had a husband who hit or sexually abused me, the first time would be the last, because I would be gone.

I'm not sticking around to see if there is another time, or if it will escalate into broken bones, shattered faces, and beatings so bad that her eye was popped out of her socket, as I have seen and heard about others going through.

And I know many Christians will condemn me for not "following God's Word to the letter" in this particular way (while also condemning me for being what they see as extreme in my other example,) but I don't believe God wants us to stay in a situation that endangers ourselves or others.

Jesus said that the Sabbath was made for man and that man wasn't made for the Sabbath; likewise, I believe that marriage was created as a blessing to people but I don't believe that God hallows marriage itself above the well-being of the people involved.

Again, I can only claim my beliefs for myself. And as I said before, I believe in the end, God will straighten us all out in the end, which most certainly includes me.

All I can do is live by my own convictions and try my best to encourage others to seek God in everything they do.
Oh you are doing just fine....mopping the floor with him as they say without using scripture quotes to back up what you are saying. (Although you actually are using the intent of scriptures)

Jesus regularly walked all over the Jew's Laws and traditions and the chaotic mess life was trying to live underneath them.
Jesus did NOT set up a new set of Laws and regulations....only made it clear that we NEED a savior because we couldn't follow the Original Law that He, Himself wrote through Moses and the Prophets.

We need a Savior....end of story.

Is it wise to remarry? I don't know the answer for everyone. Everyone is a unique individual. Not everyone is capable of making good choices. (I know this part extremely well) But I do know that actively destroying a stable good family is a horrible thing to do. Especially one that is well run and kids are well behaved and getting educated in scriptures.

Is there disfunction in Godly families?
Ya know? I have yet to hear or personally witness a family without some sort of disfunction. I heard about a family in Kansas somewhere but it was just a myth. And for those just wanting love...I can't fault them or blame them ever for doing so. Who doesn't want that? Finding love in a corrupt and fallen world? God is on the hunt for the very same thing.
 

presidente

Senior Member
May 29, 2013
9,093
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#26
Yeah....I've seen this sort of thing happen before...where beaten wives were sent back to abusive husbands...
Of course if the husband's didn't get a felony before hand they usually ended up killing the wives and went to prison that way...
Do you think you might be exagerrating a bit? Do you have any statistics to show that someone who has abused his wife and doesn't get a felony ends up killing her? If that is the case, either there are very, very few real instances of abuse out there, or a lot of murders that are not being reported.

There are a lot of really terrible things a spouse could do that Jesus didn't teach were grounds for divorce and remarriage-- murder, theft, defacing public property, getting into bar fights.

If a woman separates from an abusive husband to protect her life, that doesn't mean she has to get remarried. Especially in this day and age, women can work and do not have to marry to have some kind of living.

There are also some abusive wives out there.
I knew a couple where he was a jerk and she was somewhat of a ditz but nice...it wasn't long before she "fell in love" with another married man and they started a new life together. The church was furious about all of this and demanded that she stop the affair. Never once did they ever confront her husband about his porn addiction (he never really hid) or his alcoholism (he didn't hide this either) .
She was made out to be the villian in the story when all she wanted was a little love and respect and to care for the kids....of course she left the church. She was told she was unwelcome.
I haven't seen that sort of thing. They should have addressed both issues.

I know someone who had a problem with porn (whether it wasn't 'addiction', I do not know), whose wife didn't sleep with him for two years. He was guilty for his choices, but I also wonder how much his wife's not sleeping with him contributed to the temptation. He goes to a pastor who gives the wife permission to divorce him over the porn issues.

I talked with another man who'd been divorced and married a woman who had been divorced. He wanted to remarry because he could get tempted by porn, and figured he needed a wife. The woman he married had divorced her husband because she caught him watching porn more than once, and a pastor told her she could divorce him over that.

Porn is awful. Looking with lust is a sin. But if looking with lust is grounds for divorce, should we give the death penalty to someone who is unjustifiably angry and/or says, 'Thou fool'?

So....where divorce is actually rare in churches it does happen. There's actually a higher incidence in charismatic churches than evangelicals....but whatever eh? It's only like 2% or some silly thing like that.
I would be interested in seeing the stats. I read that evangelicals have the highest rate. Part of that may be evangelicals reaching out to divorced people, and more outreached focused groups may bring in divorced people and broken homes.

On the other hand, there seems to be a trend toward not broaching the subject from the pulpit in some churches. It hasn't sunk so low as for me to actually hear the idea that Jesus was okay with divorce if there was a certificate... from the pulpit... yet. It could be the seeker sensitive trend, whether a church calls itself that or not, may be contributing toward the problem.

And much of evangelicalism has never embraced Biblical teachings on church discipline. Roman Catholics weren't really doing it before the Reformation, and if they did it was very selective.
 

JohnDB

Well-known member
Jan 16, 2021
5,770
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#27
Do you think you might be exagerrating a bit? Do you have any statistics to show that someone who has abused his wife and doesn't get a felony ends up killing her? If that is the case, either there are very, very few real instances of abuse out there, or a lot of murders that are not being reported.

There are a lot of really terrible things a spouse could do that Jesus didn't teach were grounds for divorce and remarriage-- murder, theft, defacing public property, getting into bar fights.

If a woman separates from an abusive husband to protect her life, that doesn't mean she has to get remarried. Especially in this day and age, women can work and do not have to marry to have some kind of living.

There are also some abusive wives out there.


I haven't seen that sort of thing. They should have addressed both issues.

I know someone who had a problem with porn (whether it wasn't 'addiction', I do not know), whose wife didn't sleep with him for two years. He was guilty for his choices, but I also wonder how much his wife's not sleeping with him contributed to the temptation. He goes to a pastor who gives the wife permission to divorce him over the porn issues.

I talked with another man who'd been divorced and married a woman who had been divorced. He wanted to remarry because he could get tempted by porn, and figured he needed a wife. The woman he married had divorced her husband because she caught him watching porn more than once, and a pastor told her she could divorce him over that.

Porn is awful. Looking with lust is a sin. But if looking with lust is grounds for divorce, should we give the death penalty to someone who is unjustifiably angry and/or says, 'Thou fool'?



I would be interested in seeing the stats. I read that evangelicals have the highest rate. Part of that may be evangelicals reaching out to divorced people, and more outreached focused groups may bring in divorced people and broken homes.

On the other hand, there seems to be a trend toward not broaching the subject from the pulpit in some churches. It hasn't sunk so low as for me to actually hear the idea that Jesus was okay with divorce if there was a certificate... from the pulpit... yet. It could be the seeker sensitive trend, whether a church calls itself that or not, may be contributing toward the problem.

And much of evangelicalism has never embraced Biblical teachings on church discipline. Roman Catholics weren't really doing it before the Reformation, and if they did it was very selective.
I can't remember the study address...it wasn't that Barna study which is quoted by everyone (50%).
But basically regular church participation is one of the hallmarks of a successful marriage because usually under 10% of regular church participants ever experience divorce. Of that under 10% the ones contributing the most divorces to the statistics was the Charismatics but it wasn't by much. The study was looking at divorce rates as a whole and wasn't focused on just Church participation....but it was a surprising statistic for the study under the category of community participation/involvement)
 

seekingthemindofChrist

Casting down imaginations
Jul 10, 2023
1,178
570
113
#28
Oh you are doing just fine....mopping the floor with him as they say without using scripture quotes to back up what you are saying. (Although you actually are using the intent of scriptures).
Mopping the floor with whom, if I might ask?
 

Niki7

Well-known member
Feb 21, 2023
2,145
799
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#29
Every Christian, to some degree, forms their own viewpoints about what "following Biblical guidelines" to the letter is in some way. Many will insist that their viewpoint is the one and only correct way that follows God's will the best, and while I definitely believe that God is unchanging, I also believe He has the wisdom to discern and direct individuals through their individual situations. Life is never without some kind of nuance in most cases, and I believe in God directing us through those nuances.

You asked if the adulteress is forgiven if she continues in adultery.

I immediately thought of those caught up with pornography. Is the person who continues to seek out porn on a regular basis forgiven even if they choose to look and act on it every day for the rest of their life?

This is just my own belief, but I believe choosing porn is a form of fornication/adultery, and unless God heavily told me otherwise, I would not marry someone involved with it. And if he developed an attraction or dependency on porn that he refused to give up while we were married, I would try my best to pray and wait for change. But if it didn't, I would leave, because I would see him as being caught up in adultery, and I would rather be single than married to someone constantly cheating on me.

Many people would say I'm being too extreme or taking things out of context but Jesus said looking at someone with lust is adultery. Am I perfect? No, of course not. But I try to avoid those kinds of materials and would want to be with someone else who is trying to live the same way.

Now on the flip side, people would call me a hypocrite because there are many Christians who do not believe abuse is not grounds for divorce, but I do.

I have talked about these stories often. I grew up in the Lutheran church, and went to their schools kindergarten through graduation, only to illustrate that I became fairly well-acquainted with their teachings and the Bible and what I saw as discrepancies.

Two of the girls at my Lutheran high school while I was there later married and their husbands wound up emptying guns into their heads. The church I grew up in would do everything it could to insist that you to go back to your husband, even with both your eyes blackened.

One girl had gone to "the secular world" for help (a women's shelter) and did everything they told her to get away. They even had helped her find a new apartment he wasn't supposed to know about (I'm pretty sure my old church would NEVER do something like that to help a battered spouse.) But he did find her, and that's where he confronted and killed her "for leaving him."

The other girl was the most popular and well-known in school. She became a local TV personality, so they were seen as the model couple and family of the community. Her husband shot her to death in front of their 3 kids, the oldest of whom was about 11, who was desperately trying to call 911 at the time.

Many of the Christians I have met do not believe that even the most severe abuse is an allowance for divorce, and I've been around a lot of women at my jobs, etc., who were living with daily domestic abuse. I've also read of cases in which the husband was sexually abusing the children and the wife was reluctantly told she could separate from him, but not divorce and certainly never remarry.

For myself, if I had a husband who hit or sexually abused me, the first time would be the last, because I would be gone.

I'm not sticking around to see if there is another time, or if it will escalate into broken bones, shattered faces, and beatings so bad that her eye was popped out of her socket, as I have seen and heard about others going through.

And I know many Christians will condemn me for not "following God's Word to the letter" in this particular way (while also condemning me for being what they see as extreme in my other example,) but I don't believe God wants us to stay in a situation that endangers ourselves or others.

Jesus said that the Sabbath was made for man and that man wasn't made for the Sabbath; likewise, I believe that marriage was created as a blessing to people but I don't believe that God hallows marriage itself above the well-being of the people involved.

Again, I can only claim my beliefs for myself. And as I said before, I believe in the end, God will straighten us all out in the end, which most certainly includes me.

All I can do is live by my own convictions and try my best to encourage others to seek God in everything they do.
I know how stinky divorced people are to others and even though I had a really big whopper Biblically speaking to divorce I was still not good enough. I did remarry and my now husband also has a big whopper Biblical reason to have been divorced even though it was the wife in his case that sought divorce.

I have found that attitudes towards divorced people with a Biblical reason for the divorce are better accepted but to some they are still damaged goods.

I want to say I so much appreciate your post and really agree with it. I also think there is more than one way to view broken vows as a totally acceptable Biblical reason to obtain a divorce. I say that as someone who had the good old fashioned adultery reason (multiple occasions including an affair with one of his best friends wives) so no reason for anyone to say I am making excuses. And the begging for me to come back.....forgiveness extended, but the behavior was not going to stop.
 

seoulsearch

OutWrite Trouble
May 23, 2009
15,218
4,698
113
#30
I know how stinky divorced people are to others and even though I had a really big whopper Biblically speaking to divorce I was still not good enough. I did remarry and my now husband also has a big whopper Biblical reason to have been divorced even though it was the wife in his case that sought divorce.

I have found that attitudes towards divorced people with a Biblical reason for the divorce are better accepted but to some they are still damaged goods.

I want to say I so much appreciate your post and really agree with it. I also think there is more than one way to view broken vows as a totally acceptable Biblical reason to obtain a divorce. I say that as someone who had the good old fashioned adultery reason (multiple occasions including an affair with one of his best friends wives) so no reason for anyone to say I am making excuses. And the begging for me to come back.....forgiveness extended, but the behavior was not going to stop.

Thank you so much for sharing.

I've been on this forum since 2009 and I say that just to say, it's been a long, uphill fight all the way! :D The administration has been wonderfully understanding, and I make no excuses as I bring it all upon myself with the questions I ask and the discussion ideas I try to hold inside but can't -- eventually, they spill out somewhere. I also have a tendency to post/write more threads when I'm going through times of extreme stress, as it's one of my own personal forms of therapy.

I am so sorry about what you went through and hope that you and your husband now are richly blessed. :)

Your post meant a lot to me because I had taken some time away from the forum, telling God, "Well, I think my place here is done. I just keep telling the same stories and ain't nobody wanna hear all that!" :D

I've also felt burned out due to the church seeming to be more divided than ever, as I believe God calls me to try to bring people together.

Thank you so much for confirming that maybe my time here isn't done after all. :) Hope to see you around in the threads! :)
 

seekingthemindofChrist

Casting down imaginations
Jul 10, 2023
1,178
570
113
#31
This will probably be my last post on this thread, and I will end by saying a couple of pertinent things.
Now on the flip side, people would call me a hypocrite because there are many Christians who do not believe abuse is not grounds for divorce, but I do.

I have talked about these stories often. I grew up in the Lutheran church, and went to their schools kindergarten through graduation, only to illustrate that I became fairly well-acquainted with their teachings and the Bible and what I saw as discrepancies.

Two of the girls at my Lutheran high school while I was there later married and their husbands wound up emptying guns into their heads. The church I grew up in would do everything it could to insist that you to go back to your husband, even with both your eyes blackened.

One girl had gone to "the secular world" for help (a women's shelter) and did everything they told her to get away. They even had helped her find a new apartment he wasn't supposed to know about (I'm pretty sure my old church would NEVER do something like that to help a battered spouse.) But he did find her, and that's where he confronted and killed her "for leaving him."

The other girl was the most popular and well-known in school. She became a local TV personality, so they were seen as the model couple and family of the community. Her husband shot her to death in front of their 3 kids, the oldest of whom was about 11, who was desperately trying to call 911 at the time.

Many of the Christians I have met do not believe that even the most severe abuse is an allowance for divorce, and I've been around a lot of women at my jobs, etc., who were living with daily domestic abuse. I've also read of cases in which the husband was sexually abusing the children and the wife was reluctantly told she could separate from him, but not divorce and certainly never remarry.

For myself, if I had a husband who hit or sexually abused me, the first time would be the last, because I would be gone.

I'm not sticking around to see if there is another time, or if it will escalate into broken bones, shattered faces, and beatings so bad that her eye was popped out of her socket, as I have seen and heard about others going through.

And I know many Christians will condemn me for not "following God's Word to the letter" in this particular way (while also condemning me for being what they see as extreme in my other example,) but I don't believe God wants us to stay in a situation that endangers ourselves or others.

Jesus said that the Sabbath was made for man and that man wasn't made for the Sabbath; likewise, I believe that marriage was created as a blessing to people but I don't believe that God hallows marriage itself above the well-being of the people involved.

Again, I can only claim my beliefs for myself. And as I said before, I believe in the end, God will straighten us all out in the end, which most certainly includes me.

All I can do is live by my own convictions and try my best to encourage others to seek God in everything they do.
On the one hand, I totally agree with you that no wife/mother should tolerate the types of abuses you have described here towards either herself or her children.

A husband is supposed to nourish and cherish his wife as he would his own flesh or body (Ephesians 5:28-29), and God is totally opposed to husbands who treat their wives treacherously or violently (Malachi 2:14-15).

Similarly, a father ought to be training up his children in the way that they should go, and subjecting them to physical or sexual abuse is definitely not a part of that training process.

In such instances, I would encourage the wife/mother to not only get her church involved, but also the legal authorities. In other words, a police report ought to be filed, a restraining order gotten if needed, and either she and any children or the offending husband/father should be removed from the home to prevent everyone from remaining in the same residency until the situation is truly rectified.

Having said all of this, does this constitute the grounds for biblical divorce and remarriage?

Separation?

Definitely.

Divorce and remarriage?

Personally, I do not see it in scripture, and I would never counsel anyone beyond what I know to be written. In other words, I would take them as far as I could, and then suggest that the rest of the details be committed to serious prayer.

That is the one hand, but there is the other hand which nobody seems to like.

As Christians, we are called to suffer in different aspects of our lives, and marriage may very well be one of them.

Before even looking at human marriages, we ought to seriously consider that the Bible is basically one big marriage manual, with Christ being the bridegroom and the church being his bride. If anybody has ever read the Bible, and if they are not on some sort of mind-altering drugs, then to even think that such a relationship is without its trial and tribulations is shear insanity. in other words, the Bible is replete with accounts of unfaithfulness, so to enter into marriage with some sort of Hallmark Rom-Com mindset or Harlequin Romance mindset is literally insane.

Please consider the following words of the Apostle Peter:

1 Peter 2:13-17

"Submit yourselves to every ordinance of man for the Lord's sake: whether it be to the king, as supreme; Or unto governors, as unto them that are sent by him for the punishment of evildoers, and for the praise of them that do well. For so is the will of God, that with well doing ye may put to silence the ignorance of foolish men: As free, and not using your liberty for a cloke of maliciousness, but as the servants of God. Honour all men. Love the brotherhood. Fear God. Honour the king."

As Christians, we are called to honor the king, and the king at the time of Peter's writing was anything but honorable by Christian standards, but that simply does not matter. In other words, regardless of how other people act or behave themselves, we are still called to act or behave ourselves in manners which are befitting of the servants of God. In fact, it is the will of God that with well doing we may put to silence the ignorance of foolish men, and we do these things for the Lord's sake, and not just with our own selves or selfish desires in mind.

With this same principle in mind, Peter continued on to say:

1 Peter 2:18-25

"Servants, be subject to your masters with all fear; not only to the good and gentle, but also to the froward. For this is thankworthy, if a man for conscience toward God endure grief, suffering wrongfully. For what glory is it, if, when ye be buffeted for your faults, ye shall take it patiently? but if, when ye do well, and suffer for it, ye take it patiently, this is acceptable with God. For even hereunto were ye called: because Christ also suffered for us, leaving us an example, that ye should follow his steps: Who did no sin, neither was guile found in his mouth: Who, when he was reviled, reviled not again; when he suffered, he threatened not; but committed himself to him that judgeth righteously: Who his own self bare our sins in his own body on the tree, that we, being dead to sins, should live unto righteousness: by whose stripes ye were healed. For ye were as sheep going astray; but are now returned unto the Shepherd and Bishop of your souls."

Again, with this same principle in mind, Peter instructed Christian servants or slaves to be subject to their own masters, and not only to the good and gentle, but also unto the froward. He said that this is thankworthy because it shows that the Christian is enduring grief and suffering out of a conscience toward God, or for the Lord's sake, as he said earlier. In other words, again, this is not all about us, but also about what God has called us unto, and Peter said that we have actually been called to suffer.

Did anybody faint?

If you did, then you have not been reading your Bible.

Christ suffered wrongfully for us, and, in doing so, he set the example which we are supposed to be following. Not only this, but we are supposed to be patiently enduring such things because this is acceptable to God. People may not like it, but God seems to be just fine with it.

With this in mind, and in this precise context, please notice the very next word that Peter wrote:

1 Peter 3:1-6

"Likewise, ye wives, be in subjection to your own husbands; that, if any obey not the word, they also may without the word be won by the conversation of the wives; While they behold your chaste conversation coupled with fear. Whose adorning let it not be that outward adorning of plaiting the hair, and of wearing of gold, or of putting on of apparel; But let it be the hidden man of the heart, in that which is not corruptible, even the ornament of a meek and quiet spirit, which is in the sight of God of great price. For after this manner in the old time the holy women also, who trusted in God, adorned themselves, being in subjection unto their own husbands: Even as Sara obeyed Abraham, calling him lord: whose daughters ye are, as long as ye do well, and are not afraid with any amazement."

"Likewise"?

Yes, "likewise".

In other words, in the same way that some will suffer at the hands of wicked government officials or wicked masters, so, too, will some wives need to endure suffering in relation to their own husbands. I am not suggesting that they endure the types of physical or sexual abuses that I addressed earlier in this post, but simply having a husband who is not subject to God's word is not a biblical justification for divorce and remarriage.

Also, men quite often get the bad end of the stick, so to speak. In other words, there are plenty of scriptures which I could easily quote where the wife is the offending party, and the husband has to endure suffering because of her.

I have said enough.
 

Lanolin

Well-known member
Dec 15, 2018
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#32
?

No, well my parents are just married, not remarried.

I do know a few christian women whove got married to men who might have had a previous relationship (but were not married) and they sort of looked after the step children though I dont know what happened to the exes.

One I know married a pastor type who previously had a daughter but I dont know the details why the first relationship split up and he married and had two boys, but then for reasons unknown they split up but did not divorce, and then he died and as far as I know the ex wife and the ex partner both went to the funeral.

Which is kind of awkward I imagine but she never said much about her ex husband and didnt want to talk about anything to do with him.

Another who did divorce her husband for being unfaithful, her husband had a daughter already, (no idea what happened with his ex) married and then he had an affair and had another daughter (not with the same woman) so she divorced him. He didnt go with the other woman hes lives on his own. The divorcees go to different churches.

I ended up befriending the daughter, but I heard the dad got kicked out of his church for not looking after the manse and grounds where he was supoosed to be caretaking. The only time I saw them in the same room together was when the daughter had a birthday. She had a baptism where the dad went in his church but the mum didnt go, I dont think...?

As far as I know the mum isnt looking for anyone but for some strange reason she had like this captain von trap fantasy and a few times looked after the love child daughter, who had to get a restraining order from her own dad, and I dont know what happened to HER mum.

The daughter suffers from a genetic disorder which requires lots of hospitalisation and surgeries and I dont think the dad could handle it but then why he had three daughters to three different women I dont know. I dont know why the mum married a man whod already had a daughter but then I dont know what happened to the first mum.

so? I do know that some children tolerate their parents girlfriends or boyfriends because maybe their parents were drunk or got abused or hit when they lost their temper and felt safer with someone else who could treat them more kindly. I dont know...its all very messy,

Because I dont know both sides of the story I can only go on what I observe or what they tell me, but if someones hurting their spouse they do need to separate for a while lick their wounds and recover I guess. bit it does seem like some think its better to find someone else. However the other woman or man may not even be aware of this that they are already married sometimes!
 

Niki7

Well-known member
Feb 21, 2023
2,145
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#33
Thank you so much for sharing.

I've been on this forum since 2009 and I say that just to say, it's been a long, uphill fight all the way! :D The administration has been wonderfully understanding, and I make no excuses as I bring it all upon myself with the questions I ask and the discussion ideas I try to hold inside but can't -- eventually, they spill out somewhere. I also have a tendency to post/write more threads when I'm going through times of extreme stress, as it's one of my own personal forms of therapy.

I am so sorry about what you went through and hope that you and your husband now are richly blessed. :)

Your post meant a lot to me because I had taken some time away from the forum, telling God, "Well, I think my place here is done. I just keep telling the same stories and ain't nobody wanna hear all that!" :D

I've also felt burned out due to the church seeming to be more divided than ever, as I believe God calls me to try to bring people together.

Thank you so much for confirming that maybe my time here isn't done after all. :) Hope to see you around in the threads! :)
I've actually been on this site longer than my profile would indicate as I have left and come back several times. Each time I left was because of the abuse of members both to myself and to other members. I would say to myself 'I don't need this in my life...trying to explain my response ( often including scripture but not always) but then after awhile I would come back)

There are some people here that seem to really get off on trying to make others subordinate or possibly even not really saved. And yes, I've seen 'them' come and go over the years...although not as long as you have been here but apparently an oldie anyway LOL!

My worst experiences in life have always...yes always...been with other Christians whether here or at church. My ex was supposed to be a Christian but we were both kind of awol from Christianity...him because he wanted to do his own thing and me because of deep
dissolution with Christians and the awful experience I had had because I just was ignorant of how Christians can be, growing up in a church where people actually did try to model a proper church...with the elders taking turns on Sunday mornings and not one man pretending to be all things to all people.

Writing can be very cathartic...as you indicate....and I find you quite reasonable and authentic so no worries from me. You are brave to keep trying.....I have some people on ignore because I don't need what they offer and frankly that includes someone I did address already in this thread. I have no good experience with that person and it seems I am not alone.

But you know, those people do not matter. Oh believe me when I say I have been to concerned about what others think and say I have been the center of gossip for one reason or another and really had enough of the entire 'Christian' scene more than once...but God sent Jesus for me also and not one of us is deserving of His love.

You are quite possibly doing more good here than you might know. :giggle:
 

seoulsearch

OutWrite Trouble
May 23, 2009
15,218
4,698
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#34
I've actually been on this site longer than my profile would indicate as I have left and come back several times. Each time I left was because of the abuse of members both to myself and to other members. I would say to myself 'I don't need this in my life...trying to explain my response ( often including scripture but not always) but then after awhile I would come back)

There are some people here that seem to really get off on trying to make others subordinate or possibly even not really saved. And yes, I've seen 'them' come and go over the years...although not as long as you have been here but apparently an oldie anyway LOL!

My worst experiences in life have always...yes always...been with other Christians whether here or at church. My ex was supposed to be a Christian but we were both kind of awol from Christianity...him because he wanted to do his own thing and me because of deep
dissolution with Christians and the awful experience I had had because I just was ignorant of how Christians can be, growing up in a church where people actually did try to model a proper church...with the elders taking turns on Sunday mornings and not one man pretending to be all things to all people.

Writing can be very cathartic...as you indicate....and I find you quite reasonable and authentic so no worries from me. You are brave to keep trying.....I have some people on ignore because I don't need what they offer and frankly that includes someone I did address already in this thread. I have no good experience with that person and it seems I am not alone.

But you know, those people do not matter. Oh believe me when I say I have been to concerned about what others think and say I have been the center of gossip for one reason or another and really had enough of the entire 'Christian' scene more than once...but God sent Jesus for me also and not one of us is deserving of His love.

You are quite possibly doing more good here than you might know. :giggle:

Thank you so much for this.

I am finding your posts to be extremely insightful and relatable.

I can definitely relate when you said the worst experiences you've had have been with Christians. I feel this way too. The most love I've ever been shown in my life has been through Christians -- but also the most hate, mockery, and judgment has by others who claimed Christ in name as well.

I actually had an incidence in my life where it was an atheist friend who saved my life. I have no doubt God worked through her but that's another story for another time, and that's why I try to see things from many different angles.

Thank you again for speaking up and sharing your story because I have friends who have talked about their wonderful church experiences, and I always figure there was something wrong with me because of my very mixed bag. There have been many, many times I wanted to try to "escape" Christianity -- not necessarily God, but the people who liked to abuse the claim that He was on their side.

I am very sorry for all you've been through but am thankful you are here taking the time to help others with your testimony.

May God bless you for sharing what you've been through, because you have helped me A LOT today -- and I'm sure many others as well. :)
 

Niki7

Well-known member
Feb 21, 2023
2,145
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#35
There have been many, many times I wanted to try to "escape" Christianity -- not necessarily God, but the people who liked to abuse the claim that He was on their side.
That is exactly how I would sum it up.

As for all I have been through, it certainly leaves me far less judgemental. Yes, sin is sin, but as Jesus said...and here I am going to put it in my own words...'You sure you wanna throw that rock?' He has very penetrating eyes.

I really have less than no patience anymore with having my words twisted, or scripture twisted or with someone trying to get their viewpoint across while listening to no one but themself. My expression would be 'stop hiding behind the Bible and be real' I suspect some would not even understand what I meant. We do receive a new identity in Christ but that does not mean we undergo a total personality change. God made us and I believe He works with the person He made and does not force.

We are allowed to question. God does answer us.

Would like to sit down with you over some coffee...bet we could talk for a long time.

Going to check out that thread on abuse in marriage
 

NotmebutHim

Senior Member
May 17, 2015
2,921
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#36
I've never been married, so I'm gonna sit this one out along with Lynx. :cool:

But I hope that those two videos I posted from Mike Winger's YouTube channel have helped/will help.
 

Lanolin

Well-known member
Dec 15, 2018
23,460
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#37
I would never tell a remarried couple they need to separate..also maybe both parties are not remarried perhaps only one party is.

If it doesnt work out they will want to separate themselves anyway you actually dont need to tell them.
 

Lanolin

Well-known member
Dec 15, 2018
23,460
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#38
I try not to get involved with couples I dont know and be their judge as thats not my job, nor to be a busy body.

If the couple are fighting and need a break or holiday from each other, they both need to decide that. Not just leave without telling or saying.

If there is abuse, or they want to run away from their marriage thats something else. There are reasons why their are womens refuges that are anonymous. But when you married or committed you have to put up with it and deal with it unfortunately and also protect children as well.

The vow, if you made it is for better or WORSE
 

Lanolin

Well-known member
Dec 15, 2018
23,460
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#39
unmarried couples are fine though they can leave each other at any time and usually find somewhere else to live, though richer married couples probably have holiday houses they can go to.