Divorce...

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Magenta

Senior Member
Jul 3, 2015
60,147
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#81
That's a great question Magenta. What do you think Luke 16:18 means?

Whoever divorces his wife and marries another commits adultery; and
whoever marries her who is divorced from her husband commits adultery.
That is an interesting verse, in that it stands alone, without context. Is it that unfaithfulness is not
a legitimate reason to divorce? Jesus said Moses allowed it due to the hardness of men's hearts. Yet
Jesus said in those verses (Matthew 19:8-9) that divorce is allowed in the case of infidelity. So the
Luke verse is referring to men divorcing their wives for any and all other reasons, not infidelity.

"Anyone who divorces his wife, except for sexual immorality, and marries another woman commits
adultery."
That means it is not adultery to divorce and remarry in the case of unfaithfulness.
 

NOV25

Well-known member
Nov 23, 2019
977
386
63
#82
@Magenta Does Luke 16:18 truly stand alone?

Luke 16:17-18

[17] But it is easier for heaven and earth to pass away than for one dot of the Law to become void.
[18] “Everyone who divorces his wife and marries another commits adultery, and he who marries a woman divorced from her husband commits adultery.

Maybe these two are not meant to be considered together, even though they are together. But maybe they are 🤷‍♂️

I’ve posed this question many ways here and to others in person and have yet to receive a clear answer. The question is this: if the Deuteronomy 24 law allowed for divorce/remarriage, for causes other than fornication, then what do we do with Jesus’ apparent fornication only clause in Matt. Mark and Luke. Did Jesus change the law?

Please somebody, anybody.
 

Magenta

Senior Member
Jul 3, 2015
60,147
29,457
113
#83
@Magenta Does Luke 16:18 truly stand alone?

Luke 16:17-18

[17] But it is easier for heaven and earth to pass away than for one dot of the Law to become void.
[18] “Everyone who divorces his wife and marries another commits adultery, and he who marries a woman divorced from her husband commits adultery.

Maybe these two are not meant to be considered together, even though they are together. But maybe they are 🤷‍♂️

I’ve posed this question many ways here and to others in person and have yet to receive a clear answer. The question is this: if the Deuteronomy 24 law allowed for divorce/remarriage, for causes other than fornication, then what do we do with Jesus’ apparent fornication only clause in Matt. Mark and Luke. Did Jesus change the law?

Please somebody, anybody.
The Deuteronomy 24 law concerned remarrying the same woman after divorcing her, when she
had been with other men in the interim. Anyways, it seems pretty clear that divorce/remarriage
in the case of infidelity is not sin. Jesus made an allowance for that exception, so there is that.
 

NOV25

Well-known member
Nov 23, 2019
977
386
63
#84
The Deuteronomy 24 law concerned remarrying the same woman after divorcing her, when she
had been with other men in the interim. Anyways, it seems pretty clear that divorce/remarriage
in the case of infidelity is not sin. Jesus made an allowance for that exception, so there is that.
Deuteronomy gives us guideline for divorce: uncleanness (which include but are not limited to sexual immorality)

And guideline for remarriage: she may mary again and again just not the original.

There is more taught in the verse but these two are sufficient for this conversation.

My question again. if the Deuteronomy 24 law allowed for divorce/remarriage, for causes other than fornication, then what do we do with Jesus’ apparent fornication only clause in Matt. Mark and Luke. Did Jesus change the law?

In other words, the only cohesive conclusion one can reach from Jesus’ words in Matt. Mark and Luke is the fornication only clause, but Deuteronomy allowed divorce for reasons other than fornication. The next logical question is, did Jesus change the Deuteronomy law?
 

Magenta

Senior Member
Jul 3, 2015
60,147
29,457
113
#85
Deuteronomy gives us guideline for divorce: uncleanness (which include but are not limited to sexual immorality)

And guideline for remarriage: she may mary again and again just not the original.

There is more taught in the verse but these two are sufficient for this conversation.

My question again. if the Deuteronomy 24 law allowed for divorce/remarriage, for causes other than fornication, then what do we do with Jesus’ apparent fornication only clause in Matt. Mark and Luke. Did Jesus change the law?

In other words, the only cohesive conclusion one can reach from Jesus’ words in Matt. Mark and Luke is the fornication only clause, but Deuteronomy allowed divorce for reasons other than fornication. The next logical question is, did Jesus change the Deuteronomy law?
Jesus said those other reasons for divorce were allowed by Moses due to the hardness of men's hearts.

So it stands to reason that infidelity is the only legitimate reason for divorce. Whoever divorces his wife, except for
sexual immorality, and marries another, commits adultery; and whoever marries her who is divorced commits adultery.
 

NOV25

Well-known member
Nov 23, 2019
977
386
63
#86
Jesus said those other reasons for divorce were allowed by Moses due to the hardness of men's hearts.

So it stands to reason that infidelity is the only legitimate reason for divorce. Whoever divorces his wife, except for
sexual immorality, and marries another, commits adultery; and whoever marries her who is divorced commits adultery.
Ok, if I’m understanding you correctly your answer is essentially yes, Jesus changed the law because Moses was allowing divorce for wrong reasons…

Next logical question that arises: is Deuteronomy 24:1-4 inspired?

I’m not trying to be difficult for the sake of being difficult, please understand my heart. ❤️
 

NOV25

Well-known member
Nov 23, 2019
977
386
63
#87
The fact that these questions even arise, is just as big a problem as the inability to answer them clearly from the ESV.

ESV Luke 16:17-18

[17] But it is easier for heaven and earth to pass away than for one dot of the Law to become void.
[18] “Everyone who divorces his wife and marries another commits adultery, and he who marries a woman divorced from her husband commits adultery.

It’s easier for heaven and earth to pass away than for one dot of the law to become void, then Jesus voids (in part) Deuteronomy 24:1-4 in the very next verse.

See the problem? Again, please see my heart. I’m not suggesting Jesus actually voided the law, or claiming a contradiction in the inspired scripture.

I’m merely pointing out a flaw in translation, that’s all I’m trying to do.
 

kinda

Senior Member
Jun 26, 2013
3,925
1,502
113
#88
Let me just say, this is a discussion, and I'm not trying to change your mind, because I feel that your mind is made up. At this point I'm accepting that you believe divorce, than remarriage is fine in certain circumstances. I would like to understand your position, so I know what people think, that think differently, than I do in Biblical sense regarding marriage after divorce.

In my mind, remarriage is only acceptable, if one of the spouses dies. Even Paul says, paraphrasing, it's better that widows stay single.

Now let's dive in, shall we?

That is an interesting verse, in that it stands alone, without context. Is it that unfaithfulness is not
a legitimate reason to divorce?


In my opinion, Jesus is bringing understanding to law, since Moses law was abused regarding divorce. Now I hear that many people are "New Testament Christians", so maybe the Old Testament isn't important to some, but here we are talking about the law.

Mathew 19:9 answers your question about a legitimate reason to divorce.

Luke 16
16 “The Law and the Prophets were proclaimed until John. Since that time, the good news of the kingdom of God is being preached, and everyone is forcing their way into it. 17 It is easier for heaven and earth to disappear than for the least stroke of a pen to drop out of the Law.

18 “Anyone who divorces his wife and marries another woman commits adultery, and the man who marries a divorced woman commits adultery.


Mathew 19
9 I tell you that anyone who divorces his wife, except for sexual immorality, and marries another woman commits adultery.”


Jesus said Moses allowed it due to the hardness of men's hearts. Yet
Jesus said in those verses (Matthew 19:8-9) that divorce is allowed in the case of infidelity.


I think Jesus is the best commentary we have for the Old Testament. I really believe Jesus is interpreting Deuteronomy 24 1-4, so people don't abuse the law, and just divorce, because the next door neighbor is way nicer looking, or whatever.

Agree or disagree?

I don't see Jesus throwing out the law of Moses, are you implying that he has? Why did you bring this up?

I really, really believe that Jesus was bringing meaning to Deuteronomy. You fail to mention Mathew 19:10, which is rather profound. "The disciples said to him, "If this is the situation between a husband and wife, it is better not to marry". I tend to agree with the disciples here. lol

Not to mention, Jesus replied, "Not everyone can accept this word". Jesus might actually be hinting, that it's better not to marry. Yes?

Mathew 19:7-11

7 “Why then,” they asked, “did Moses command that a man give his wife a certificate of divorce and send her away?”

8 Jesus replied, “Moses permitted you to divorce your wives because your hearts were hard. But it was not this way from the beginning. 9 I tell you that anyone who divorces his wife, except for sexual immorality, and marries another woman commits adultery.”

10 The disciples said to him, “If this is the situation between a husband and wife, it is better not to marry.”

11 Jesus replied, “Not everyone can accept this word, but only those to whom it has been given. 12 For there are eunuchs who were born that way, and there are eunuchs who have been made eunuchs by others—and there are those who choose to live like eunuchs for the sake of the kingdom of heaven. The one who can accept this should accept it.”




So the Luke verse is referring to men divorcing their wives for any and all other reasons, not infidelity.
"Anyone who divorces his wife, except for sexual immorality, and marries another woman commits
adultery."


That means it is not adultery to divorce and remarry in the case of unfaithfulness.

This is where you lost me....

"So the Luke verse is referring to men divorcing their wives for any and all other reasons, not infidelity."

The Luke verse is condemning marriage after divorce, not divorcing for any reason. How did you read in, "referring to men divorcing their wives any reason?" This conclusion baffles me. Once again, how are you deriving that the "Luke verse is referring to men divorcing their weaves for any and all other reasons, not infidelity?" That is just a mystery. I don't understand your conclusion. Please explain.

So, here is the Luke 16:18

“Whoever divorces his wife and marries another commits adultery; and whoever marries her who is divorced from her husband commits adultery.

Where does it imply that men are divorcing their wives for any reason?!?! To me it reads, don't marry after divorce, because that is adultery. Yes or no? Once again, I want to understand your view point. Please explain how you came to your conclusion.

Next you pointed out Mathew 19:9, which states....

Mathew 19

9 And I say to you, whoever divorces his wife, except for [a]sexual immorality, and marries another, commits adultery; and whoever marries her who is divorced commits adultery.”

Than you conclude.....

"That means it is not adultery to divorce and remarry in the case of unfaithfulness".

I think you are twisting scripture, so now I see where you get your view point. That is some serious rodeo action right there. lol Let me try to break this down. You may think the same about what I think, but just being honest. We are still friends right? :) lol

whoever divorces his wife, except for sexual immorality...... Basically when you read this part of the verse, your thinking that it means, who ever divorces their wife for any reason, except adultery, than their marriage never existed, or they are free to marry again. No where does Mathew 19:9 say, that they divorcee is free to marry again, but quite the contrary, it says adultery and adultery, if you marry again. Like I said, it's a rodeo.

I honestly understand your position now, so thanks for clearing that up.

I will just say, that the only reason Jesus gave for divorce is adultery, in any other circumstance, it's a sin. Although, some will argue there are some other really good reasons for divorce, but we are talking scripture, not our feelings, or common sense.

If we understand, that we are trying to keep what Jesus taught, than we should know that adultery is the only reason for divorce, not the only reason, not to remarry. Every one is entitled to their view points, but I'm seriously glad that I understand your view point now.

The ending at last! yeah! lol

Mathew 19

10 The disciples said to him, “If this is the situation between a husband and wife, it is better not to marry.”

11 Jesus replied, “Not everyone can accept this word, but only those to whom it has been given. 12 For there are eunuchs who were born that way, and there are eunuchs who have been made eunuchs by others—and there are those who choose to live like eunuchs for the sake of the kingdom of heaven. The one who can accept this should accept it.”

I found this comment in the commentary below, helpful in unscrambling the topic.

*"In short, Jesus declares divorce sinful except in the case of sexual immorality".


https://www.bibleref.com/Matthew/19/Matthew-19-9.html

I did try very hard to understand what you meant and responded the best way I could. I feel enlightened and understand your position now, even though we disagree.
 

kinda

Senior Member
Jun 26, 2013
3,925
1,502
113
#89
@Magenta Does Luke 16:18 truly stand alone?

Luke 16:17-18

[17] But it is easier for heaven and earth to pass away than for one dot of the Law to become void.
[18] “Everyone who divorces his wife and marries another commits adultery, and he who marries a woman divorced from her husband commits adultery.

Maybe these two are not meant to be considered together, even though they are together. But maybe they are 🤷‍♂️

I’ve posed this question many ways here and to others in person and have yet to receive a clear answer. The question is this: if the Deuteronomy 24 law allowed for divorce/remarriage, for causes other than fornication, then what do we do with Jesus’ apparent fornication only clause in Matt. Mark and Luke. Did Jesus change the law?

Please somebody, anybody.
Post 24 in the thread, I feel invisible now. Thanks! lol
 

Magenta

Senior Member
Jul 3, 2015
60,147
29,457
113
#90
I honestly understand your position now, so thanks for clearing that up.
I doubt you do understand, since you claim I am twisting Scripture, which
PLAINLY states that it is adultery EXCEPT in the case of marital infidelity.
 

kinda

Senior Member
Jun 26, 2013
3,925
1,502
113
#91
I doubt you do understand, since you claim I am twisting Scripture, which
PLAINLY states that it is adultery EXCEPT in the case of marital infidelity.
We both stated our case, we are both not gonna change our minds, so.....


 

Magenta

Senior Member
Jul 3, 2015
60,147
29,457
113
#92
We both stated our case, we are both not gonna change our minds, so.....


I quoted Scripture which you claim is a rodeo. That was your case.
 

Lynx

Folksy yet erudite
Aug 13, 2014
27,361
9,373
113
#93
All I know is, I'm soooooo glad I'm single. This marriage stuff seems like more drama than I can handle.
 

SomeDisciple

Well-known member
Jul 4, 2021
2,266
1,049
113
#94
Ok, if I’m understanding you correctly your answer is essentially yes, Jesus changed the law because Moses was allowing divorce for wrong reasons…
I've heard people suggest this; but I have a real problem with Jesus being like "oh, yeah, that was Moses' fault, that goofball". I feel like if God had a problem with something Moses did- he'd be like, "UH, WHAT ARE YOU DOING MOSES?", the idea that God let Moses slip in something into the law? Come on, no way.
I think when Jesus says "Moses" he means "the law of Moses" which is actually the law that was passed to Moses, it's not like he came up with it himself.
 

Magenta

Senior Member
Jul 3, 2015
60,147
29,457
113
#95
All I know is, I'm soooooo glad I'm single. This marriage stuff seems like more drama than I can handle.
I dare say it often is, given the statistics. However, the benefits are supposed to outweigh the hardships ;)
 

Magenta

Senior Member
Jul 3, 2015
60,147
29,457
113
#96
I've heard people suggest this; but I have a real problem with Jesus being like "oh, yeah, that was
Moses' fault, that goofball". I feel like if God had a problem with something Moses did- he'd be like,
"UH, WHAT ARE YOU DOING MOSES?", the idea that God let Moses slip in something into the law?
Come on, no way. I think when Jesus says "Moses" he means "the law of Moses" which is actually
the law that was passed to Moses, it's not like he came up with it himself.
How many times did Jesus say, "You have heard that it was said... but I say unto you... "

I did a search just now :D The first site I am on gives six examples, two of which deal with this issue.

I have just skimmed the page, though...

https://www.knowableword.com/2018/0...have-heard-that-it-was-said-but-i-say-to-you/
 

kinda

Senior Member
Jun 26, 2013
3,925
1,502
113
#97
All I know is, I'm soooooo glad I'm single. This marriage stuff seems like more drama than I can handle.
Amen. You may like this verse here.

Mathew 19

10 The disciples said to him, “If this is the situation between a husband and wife, it is better not to marry.”
 

NOV25

Well-known member
Nov 23, 2019
977
386
63
#98
I've heard people suggest this; but I have a real problem with Jesus being like "oh, yeah, that was Moses' fault, that goofball". I feel like if God had a problem with something Moses did- he'd be like, "UH, WHAT ARE YOU DOING MOSES?", the idea that God let Moses slip in something into the law? Come on, no way.
I think when Jesus says "Moses" he means "the law of Moses" which is actually the law that was passed to Moses, it's not like he came up with it himself.
🤣🤣🤣 Exactly bro!
I mean who wrote Deuteronomy 24:1-4 Did Moses write it against God’s will but it slipped through the cracks into inspired scripture until Jesus corrected it 1,000’s of years later?!?

C’mon lol….
 

kinda

Senior Member
Jun 26, 2013
3,925
1,502
113
#99
A sad subject in reality. In my social studies I have learned that Christians are divorcing at a similar rate as the non-believer is and in some cases more. What you might say it trivialises marriage when in fact marriage is a covenant not to be broken. I have been married 52 years and if I am tempted to throw the towel in and I have been, my vows on my wedding day come back to me. "Until death us do part." Divorce to me is not death us do part.

The reality is marriage is about two imperfect people coming together to share their lives, warts and all. The warts do not disappear just because you are married. All they do is show up imperfections in each other and give us a chance to eat humble pie and not be selfish and do things "my way."

If you want to know if you have succeeded. look at your children. My daughter is an angel and would do anything for you and does. My son is a lovable ratbag and sometimes I wonder where did I go wrong. But there is one thing I know he would give you the shirt of his back if you were in need.

Now do you want to do things biblically or selfishly? If you want to do things biblically, and they are commands not suggestions. in a case like the one posted here, read 1 Corinthians 7 v 10. the wife must not separate from her husband BUT if she does, she remains unmarried or becomes reconciled with her husband and the husband must NOT divorce his wife. After the breakdown of the marriage God can still do wonders and bring reconciliation.

In Like 16 v 18 Jesus said if anyone divorces his wife and marries another woman commits adultery and the man who marries a divorced woman commits adultery.

So there you have it. Sounds like divorce is a no no. But separation is OK as long as you do not marry again unless it is you coming together with your spouse again. God has never broken a covenant with anyone and due to the fact that we are taking on the God nature when we are born again and become part of his family, the same applies to us.
Great post!

You seem like a good fit for marriage. Myself on the other hand, I would want out on day 2. lol

1 Corinthians 7:10 is spot on.

10 To the married I give this command (not I, but the Lord): A wife must not separate from her husband. 11 But if she does, she must remain unmarried or else be reconciled to her husband. And a husband must not divorce his wife.
 

NOV25

Well-known member
Nov 23, 2019
977
386
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1 Corinthians 7:10

10 To the married I give this command (not I, but the Lord): A wife must not separate from her husband. 11 But if she does, she must remain unmarried or else be reconciled to her husband. And a husband must not divorce his wife.

Does this verse mean, if a woman divorces her husband she must remain unmarried or remarry her husband?