If the Serial Fornicator is More Forgiven and Accepted than the Divorced Person, Why Bother Risking Marriage?

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seoulsearch

OutWrite Trouble
May 23, 2009
12,232
2,581
113
#21
You probably have my old Lutheran school restrictions to thank for that. :)

There are many subjects I wish I could post about, and I've always been known to be a bit controversial, but I also have to think about how the discussions can be kept G-rated for the sake of the youngsters who come here.

I have always been the type of person who runs straight into the most turbulent part of the emotional storm.

The latest "series" I've been wanting to post about is how Christians can or should prepare themselves for marriage when they have an abusive past, and/or are marrying someone who has been abused.

I know there is a lot of thought within the Christian community that people just don't try hard enough to make marriages work, but I have always liked talking to people about real life vs. the mask we put on for others, and there are so many other factors going on behind the scenes.

People often talk to me about the sexual abuse they've gone through. The good Christian advice would be to talk over everything before you get married, but many people don't , or have, and found that it didn't help, or maybe don't even know what might go wrong until after they get married. I once talked to a young person who was thankful for their loving, Christian spouse, but found that a part of them had been conditioned from their childhood abuse, and it was greatly affecting their marriage. They really had no way of knowing this until after they married.

These are the kinds of topics I think people are dying to talk about (and are emotionally dying from), but on a family-friendly forum on which all ages have all access at all times, as much as I want to bring these discussions to the floor, I'd have to think of a way to do so in a manner that a parent would feel comfortable letting their child read.
I lived that nightmare. I wouldn't wish it on anyone.
I'm so sorry, Dino.

Things like this weigh on my mind heavily. I think they are destroying marriages because no one in the church is really allowed to talk about it, and that's why I always feel so strongly that the really tough issues are exactly the ones we need to be discussing.

I've been wanting to write a current thread (I've tried writing others in the past) or even series about abuse and its effect on those who want to marry or are now married. I think it's such an important topic, because no one in the church is able to talk about what's really going on, literally behind closed doors.

For instance (and I'm certainly NOT saying this was your situation, Dino, I'm just using this as an ANONYMOUS example), I have talked to some men whose wives were sexually abused as children, but they never got involved with anyone until they married. And after they married... they discovered that even though it was now supposed to be ok, it made them feel dirty, used, and disgusting.

What is a loving Christian husband supposed to do? The church tells them that if they want to have sexual intimacy, they need to get married!!! So what happens when they follow all the rules, wait patiently for their beloved brides AFTER the wedding (AFTER it's a done deal, NO TURNING BACK), and the find out their wives are angry at them for trying to express that marital intimacy?

Now of course... there are now two people's feelings to take into consideration here: the wife is thinking, "If you loved me, you wouldn't try to do this and make me hate myself," and the husband is thinking, "What am I supposed to do... Live the rest of my life like a monk, even though I got married?!)

But all the church ever seems to tell people is, "Get married. You'll have God's grace to get you through. Don't you have enough faith? If God brought you together, He'll make a way. REMEMBER, GOD HATES DIVORCE!!!"

These are the kinds of stories I hear more and more of the older I get, and I know people are emotionally suffering and dying in silence.

This has always been the strongest call on my heart - to try to somehow help people who are going through the things that never get talked about.
 

noblenut

Junior Member
Nov 29, 2017
265
89
28
#22
Hey Everyone,

This is a topic I've been churning around for a couple of weeks, but I'm going to first make a disclaimer: I am in NO way, shape, or form condoning, excusing, or encouraging sex outside of marriage AT ALL. But, I would like to present a few things for our CC singles community to consider and hopefully discuss in a respectful Christian manner with special consideration to the young teens who also visit this forum.

This is the kind of discussion I wish my church elders would have had with me when I was a young adult.

We singles know that being alone sucks. But we also know all too well that if we long for an intimate relationship that includes both body and spirit, the only option we have is to get married. And how many times have all of us heard, "It's better to marry than to burn with passion!" (1 Corinthians 7:9.)

Here's the part I wish people would be more specific about: a Christian single gets ONE, and only ONE chance at this. With virtually every other sin, you can be forgiven and start over, but NOT. WITH. MARRIAGE. Sure, they say there are a few exceptions (when an unbeliever leaves, or if your spouse cheats on you), but even then, many Christians will tell you that you can NEVER marry again because that would be adultery.

Please understand. I'm NOT trying to argue with the Bible, and the point of this thread is NOT meant to be an argument about remarriage -- I will always encourage following God's commands and personal convictions.

However, if you find yourself in a marriage that doesn't stay together, for whatever reason that is not defined as a Biblical reason, whether your spouse is having online affairs (because some will say you still can't leave unless it's actual physical sex), whether the marriage is abusive, whether your spouse refuses to have sex with you or wants sex in a way you don't want, whether your believing spouse leaves you - you have literally just kissed your ONE Biblical chance for romantic love and intimacy goodbye, never to be seen again, because there are NO more chances.

In fact, as I said in another thread (with EXTREME, purposeful sarcasm), the "best" thing you can hope for is that your spouse actually "does" physically cheat on you so that you can at least have a Biblical divorce, and even then, people will assume you are a sinful screw-up who couldn't even hold a marriage together (that's what I was told, at least.) Should I feel "blessed" that "at least" my unbelieving ex not only left but married someone else so that I supposedly had an official Biblical divorce?

And here is why I'm frustrated. As part of the divorced Christian community for 20 years, I have seen this over and over again: a single mom/dad who has 4 children by 4 different moms/dads who is now trying to live a repentant Christian life is seen as perfectly eligible for marriage, and possibly even a church leadership position, which is wonderful.

The person who's slept with 20 people but never married any of them and repents is welcomed with open arms and a pep talk about how we have a God of forgiveness and new beginnings, praise the Lord!

But the person who was married, and maybe that was the only partner they ever had, is ostracized from all of this. They can't marry. They can't hold a church position, lest they influence anyone else with their terrible evil of not being able to uphold the sanctity of marriage, even when it was their spouse who chose to leave them.

* Why is there this huge distinction between people who have repeatedly fornicated but never married, and those who actually did choose to marry?

* And, if this is how it is, what would be the reason to choose to marry in the first place? Because if the person who slept with all these people had married even one of them, they would then be in the same boat as the divorced person - but as long as they don't marry anyone, they can repent and have every door opened for them.

Again, I am NOT trying to encourage going against God's commands AT ALL. I am NOT trying to promote any kind of sexual activity outside of marriage, period. I am also NOT trying to condemn anyone who may have had multiple sexual relationships with or without marriage, because we all need Christ's redemption.

BUT, this is something I personally ask God all the time: People are going to sin, even when they try their hardest not to, so is it worse to risk the sins someone might commit as a single, repent, and start over, or would You rather have us risk getting married instead? Because if we fail at that or someone fails us, we are forever quarantined because of it.

I know the obvious answer to this question is that we should obey God no matter what the risks might be, but what I'm really asking for here are for your own thoughts, experiences, and observations.

I know this will probably be a hot-button topic so I'm hoping at the very least, it will remain respectful.

We're all in this together... Many thanks for your respectful participation in advance!
i am 40 and have never married or known a woman, and i ma happy that way, and christians shouldn't fornicate, but what a person is before they come to God does not matter, and if u have had one bad relationship way risk another, what the bible says is for our good and to protect us
 

seoulsearch

OutWrite Trouble
May 23, 2009
12,232
2,581
113
#23
i am 40 and have never married or known a woman, and i ma happy that way, and christians shouldn't fornicate, but what a person is before they come to God does not matter, and if u have had one bad relationship way risk another, what the bible says is for our good and to protect us
Hi NobleNut,

Kudos to you and thank you for your post!

This is actually the very heart of the thread.

As long as the person didn't marry the one they had a relationship with, then yes, what was in the past doesn't matter.

But if that person had married a former relationship, then it matters, because after a divorce, that person is no longer eligible for marriage.

Which is exactly what this thread is exploring. Why the person with many relationships (or just flings) is forgiven and can start clean, but the divorced person cannot.
 

noblenut

Junior Member
Nov 29, 2017
265
89
28
#25
Hi NobleNut,

Kudos to you and thank you for your post!

This is actually the very heart of the thread.

As long as the person didn't marry the one they had a relationship with, then yes, what was in the past doesn't matter.

But if that person had married a former relationship, then it matters, because after a divorce, that person is no longer eligible for marriage.

Which is exactly what this thread is exploring. Why the person with many relationships (or just flings) is forgiven and can start clean, but the divorced person cannot.
to be honest if a person has been immoral then perhaps its better if they do not marry at all, faithfulness does not start at marriage but before a person is married, one man for one woman, that's why i have never been with a woman, to be faithful if i do end up with a wife
 

seoulsearch

OutWrite Trouble
May 23, 2009
12,232
2,581
113
#26
Thank you for this thread @seoulsearch... It is both very timely and enlightening...
Thank YOU for the feedback, Sole. :)

I'm so sorry about the things you are going through. :(

There are many times when I get an idea for a thread, spend more work on it than I used to on my college term papers, and then axe the whole idea thinking no one will want to talk about it, especially in public.

I have learned though that even if it only helps one person, and even if that person never says anything, it was well worth it and I surely hope that it was God pushing me not to let that idea go.

I appreciate everyone's thoughts very much.

It makes me sad to hear that so many people have been treated this way. I'm sure that in most cases, the people around them were trying their best to do what they felt was Scripturally right, but this is why I constantly ask God if these kinds of seemingly glaring discrepancies are really what He wants for the church.
 

JustEli

Well-known member
Dec 23, 2018
1,079
828
113
45
#27
I thought only the woman would be considered the adulteress, and dudes can remarry at will?
 

Solemateleft

Honor, Courage, Commitment
Jun 25, 2017
1,526
1,379
113
#28
Thank YOU for the feedback, Sole. :)

I'm so sorry about the things you are going through. :(

I have learned though that even if it only helps one person, and even if that person never says anything, it was well worth it and I surely hope that it was God pushing me not to let that idea go.
Yes, I am constantly reminded of HIS mastery... I'm pretty sure it was my guardian angel reminding HIM to push you to not let this idea go... Thank you for your personal sentiment... I do greatly appreciate your compassion...
 

Tinkerbell725

Senior Member
Jul 19, 2014
3,980
993
113
Philippines Age 40
#29
Because a marriage involves a vow to God. That makes marriage sacred. When God make promises, He will fulfill them. He expects us to do the same. But when things go wrong in the marriage or the other decides to break the marriage vow, what can the spouse do? I believe God is merciful and will consider the abandoned or the abused spouse. About the decision to remarry, it is a serious matter that will need a lot of prayer, guidance and wisdom from God.
 

noblenut

Junior Member
Nov 29, 2017
265
89
28
#31
has anyone read Hosea, how he married an unfaithful wife, its a beautiful story and appropriate to this thread
 

Krumbeard

Well-known member
Apr 15, 2019
487
430
63
#32
Wow! Another short, concise question with tons of specifics and details explaining the question!:giggle:

Do you sleep at night?
Seriously, there are a ton of good insights, questions and comments. Definitely thought provoking. I do have some comments/thoughts/experiences with some of these things. Some I will post publicly others not.

My wife was abused as a child. She didn't quite get this as a young adult or the impact it would have in her adult life and our relationship. As time went on things got harder and harder for her. She spent many years in counseling working on this. She was torn by the whole trying to do the right thing even though she didn't particularly care for it and also the shame/ guilt that went with those things.

I was no saint in our relationship. Although I probably thought I was. I do know that I was a huge hypocrite.

I think of many of these things myself but not to the extent that you have. You raise some very good points.

Is the church truly a "Hospital for Sinners"? why would people rather hang out at the bar than go to church.

Do we need to be open about who we are at church so others that share similar hurts know that it is safe?

There's a lot more going on in my brain but my fingers are too slow.

If you want to talk more, get in touch.
 

cinder

Senior Member
Mar 26, 2014
3,394
1,438
113
#33
My rule is, and based on scripture is that if God did not in fact join the couple together than there was never a marriage in the first place in the eyes of God. What God has joined together may no one put asunder. The thing is, not everyone who is married was joined together by God. As there was no spiritual marriage in the eyes of God then this person is free to marry regardless of the reason for the divorce.
I can't agree with this because well how do you test if God has joined the couple together or if they just brought themselves together? When we start throwing out overly spiritual ideas and phrases, like God joined or didn't join this marriage together, well usually the spiritual is pretty subjective so we eliminate the possibility of accountability (because there's no objective standard) and we start giving moral authority to our feelings as opposed to the Bible or some sort of objective standard. So if you made the marriage vows, you're married. It doesn't have to be a wise or godly decision for God to expect you to keep your vows. A marriage is not annulled because in hindsight you're not so sure God brought you together.


I thought only the woman would be considered the adulteress, and dudes can remarry at will?
I think you were saying this tongue in cheek, but actually it's a good point. Because if we read the Bible literally it says: " but I say to you that everyone who [fn]divorces his wife, except for thereason of unchastity, makes her commit adultery; and whoever marries a [fn]divorced woman commits adultery." And it really does make it sound like all the adultery rests with the divorced woman (her husband by divorcing her makes her commit adultery, and marrying her would be to commit adultery). But if you read it in context, finding it between the parts about lust and about keeping your vows, well I suspect Jesus' point was probably more along the lines of "divorcing your wife is as evil as cheating on her". And we should also remember that these public discourses were almost always primarily addressed to audiences of men. Which makes me think that in the first century mind there must have been some sort of deterrent to making your wife an adulteress that would have discouraged men from divorcing. We've all kind of accepted that Jesus was discouraging divorce, but if you're going for an overliteral out of context reading then yes it sounds like Jesus is saying men get off scott free sinwise in the divorce, just as long as they don't marry a divorced woman. And we really can't mesh that overliteral reading with the rest of what we know of Jesus life and teaching.

I'd also like to say that no where in this most famous passage does it say that adultery makes divorce ok; it's just that if your wife has already committed adultery then well she's already an adulteress and her husband's divorcing her isn't going to make her more of one. So I think we've gotten it super wrong in the church especially in the way we view divorce and treat divorced people. And I think maybe that's because it hits too close to home, seeing a marriage break up can easily trigger fears that yours might be next and it's so much easier to blame the people who divorced as having some sort of moral failing than to face the fact that no marriage is immune to the risk of loss (in fact, sooner or later most married people will lose their spouse, whether to divorce or death they're going to have to go through the aloneness they now see in the divorced person's life). Chronic fornicators on the other hand, most married people can't relate to such behavior (at least not in their future) so it is much easier to forgive once the person has put that behind them. It's not right or just or logical, and I'm pretty sure God doesn't see it as people in churches so often see it. Seems like they forget old testament law had provision for divorce and it wasn't considered sinful or a hindrance toward remarriage (heck you could say that divorce was so the wife a man didn't want anymore could be married, claimed, and cared for by another man (since at that time women had pretty much no way to support and care for themselves)) I had a great blog post written up about this once, but I think it got lost in the site changeover and I can't find a copy on my computer.
 

JustEli

Well-known member
Dec 23, 2018
1,079
828
113
45
#34
I FORGOT MY LOVE

it wasnt the act, but the lie
how does one forget that love
or ever trust again.......................
am I a cheap shoe?
temporary, disposable?
left by the wayside?
an old chewed up piece
of gum? long ago having
lost its flavor?
was it meant to be?
or just #%^#%^
thrown to the wind...................
 
Aug 2, 2009
23,054
2,834
113
#35
Hey Everyone,

This is a topic I've been churning around for a couple of weeks, but I'm going to first make a disclaimer: I am in NO way, shape, or form condoning, excusing, or encouraging sex outside of marriage AT ALL. But, I would like to present a few things for our CC singles community to consider and hopefully discuss in a respectful Christian manner with special consideration to the young teens who also visit this forum.

This is the kind of discussion I wish my church elders would have had with me when I was a young adult.

We singles know that being alone sucks. But we also know all too well that if we long for an intimate relationship that includes both body and spirit, the only option we have is to get married. And how many times have all of us heard, "It's better to marry than to burn with passion!" (1 Corinthians 7:9.)

Here's the part I wish people would be more specific about: a Christian single gets ONE, and only ONE chance at this. With virtually every other sin, you can be forgiven and start over, but NOT. WITH. MARRIAGE. Sure, they say there are a few exceptions (when an unbeliever leaves, or if your spouse cheats on you), but even then, many Christians will tell you that you can NEVER marry again because that would be adultery.

Please understand. I'm NOT trying to argue with the Bible, and the point of this thread is NOT meant to be an argument about remarriage -- I will always encourage following God's commands and personal convictions.

However, if you find yourself in a marriage that doesn't stay together, for whatever reason that is not defined as a Biblical reason, whether your spouse is having online affairs (because some will say you still can't leave unless it's actual physical sex), whether the marriage is abusive, whether your spouse refuses to have sex with you or wants sex in a way you don't want, whether your believing spouse leaves you - you have literally just kissed your ONE Biblical chance for romantic love and intimacy goodbye, never to be seen again, because there are NO more chances.

In fact, as I said in another thread (with EXTREME, purposeful sarcasm), the "best" thing you can hope for is that your spouse actually "does" physically cheat on you so that you can at least have a Biblical divorce, and even then, people will assume you are a sinful screw-up who couldn't even hold a marriage together (that's what I was told, at least.) Should I feel "blessed" that "at least" my unbelieving ex not only left but married someone else so that I supposedly had an official Biblical divorce?

And here is why I'm frustrated. As part of the divorced Christian community for 20 years, I have seen this over and over again: a single mom/dad who has 4 children by 4 different moms/dads who is now trying to live a repentant Christian life is seen as perfectly eligible for marriage, and possibly even a church leadership position, which is wonderful.

The person who's slept with 20 people but never married any of them and repents is welcomed with open arms and a pep talk about how we have a God of forgiveness and new beginnings, praise the Lord!

But the person who was married, and maybe that was the only partner they ever had, is ostracized from all of this. They can't marry. They can't hold a church position, lest they influence anyone else with their terrible evil of not being able to uphold the sanctity of marriage, even when it was their spouse who chose to leave them.

* Why is there this huge distinction between people who have repeatedly fornicated but never married, and those who actually did choose to marry?

* And, if this is how it is, what would be the reason to choose to marry in the first place? Because if the person who slept with all these people had married even one of them, they would then be in the same boat as the divorced person - but as long as they don't marry anyone, they can repent and have every door opened for them.

Again, I am NOT trying to encourage going against God's commands AT ALL. I am NOT trying to promote any kind of sexual activity outside of marriage, period. I am also NOT trying to condemn anyone who may have had multiple sexual relationships with or without marriage, because we all need Christ's redemption.

BUT, this is something I personally ask God all the time: People are going to sin, even when they try their hardest not to, so is it worse to risk the sins someone might commit as a single, repent, and start over, or would You rather have us risk getting married instead? Because if we fail at that or someone fails us, we are forever quarantined because of it.

I know the obvious answer to this question is that we should obey God no matter what the risks might be, but what I'm really asking for here are for your own thoughts, experiences, and observations.

I know this will probably be a hot-button topic so I'm hoping at the very least, it will remain respectful.

We're all in this together... Many thanks for your respectful participation in advance!
Ok, here is the dealio...

1. Marriage is a contract with God

When a man and woman ger married, they are basically signing a contrat with God that says they promise to love each other and stay together until one of them dies..... And God apparently doesn't take contracts lightly or else Jesus never would have spoken about it.


2. Getting pregnant / fornication does not involve any contract with God.


3. In conclusion:


By getting married, a person is promising God that their spouse will be the only one they will love for the rest of their life and if the marriage fails for reasons outside of what's allowed in scripture, then that person has to accept the fact that they promised God they would only love that one person and therefore cannot remarry.

But those who had kids out of wedlock did not promise God anything so they are free to still look for a spouse.
 

JustEli

Well-known member
Dec 23, 2018
1,079
828
113
45
#36
I FORGOT MY LOVE

it wasnt the act, but the lie
how does one forget that love
or ever trust again.......................
am I a cheap shoe?
temporary, disposable?
left by the wayside?
an old chewed up piece
of gum? long ago having
lost its flavor?
was it meant to be?
or just #%^#%^
thrown to the wind...................

im gonna repost this in my thread
 

Didymous

Senior Member
Feb 22, 2018
5,047
2,062
113
#37
Ok, here is the dealio...

1. Marriage is a contract with God

When a man and woman ger married, they are basically signing a contrat with God that says they promise to love each other and stay together until one of them dies..... And God apparently doesn't take contracts lightly or else Jesus never would have spoken about it.


2. Getting pregnant / fornication does not involve any contract with God.


3. In conclusion:

By getting married, a person is promising God that their spouse will be the only one they will love for the rest of their life and if the marriage fails for reasons outside of what's allowed in scripture, then that person has to accept the fact that they promised God they would only love that one person and therefore cannot remarry.

But those who had kids out of wedlock did not promise God anything so they are free to still look for a spouse.
So is remarrying after divorce the unpardonable sin then?
 
Aug 2, 2009
23,054
2,834
113
#38
So is remarrying after divorce the unpardonable sin then?
Based on what Jesus said to the woman at the well, I don't think it's a sin to remarry. I think what happens is that God does not recognize any proceeding marriages (he does not honor any future contracts) if the marriage ended outside the allowed reasons given in the bible.

I say this because Jesus did not condemn the woman at the well for marrying 5 men, he only said she was right about not having a husband.
 

LittleMermaid

Well-known member
Apr 23, 2019
318
380
63
#39
I don't know if it's wrong for divorced people to remarry. I feel like it should not be because God's grace covers everything. I think that even if a divorced couple got divorced for non-adultery reasons, they could still remarry someone else if they asked God for forgiveness. Doesn't God make us new again? He cleanses us right? So I think that means we're going to keep messing up and that's okay. We get as many chances as possible until we die and depart this earth. Of course, I don't know for sure if I'm right. These are just my thoughts.

I think that's the biggest issue with this topic. We are all going by how we feel and what we think should be fair...but no one really knows for sure. Sometimes I wish the Bible would have been written a little easier to understand. We need details! lol

Seoul, you mentioned a man that had 26 lovers. I don't think I can stomach that. I hope that if I marry, my husband is a virgin...if not at least not in the two digits. I just can't. It makes me uncomfortable and very jealous to be honest. I think that's why I cannot marry a man who has been married, even if he was widowed. I am too jealous.

 

seoulsearch

OutWrite Trouble
May 23, 2009
12,232
2,581
113
#40
Ok, here is the dealio...

1. Marriage is a contract with God

When a man and woman ger married, they are basically signing a contrat with God that says they promise to love each other and stay together until one of them dies..... And God apparently doesn't take contracts lightly or else Jesus never would have spoken about it.


2. Getting pregnant / fornication does not involve any contract with God.


3. In conclusion:

By getting married, a person is promising God that their spouse will be the only one they will love for the rest of their life and if the marriage fails for reasons outside of what's allowed in scripture, then that person has to accept the fact that they promised God they would only love that one person and therefore cannot remarry.

But those who had kids out of wedlock did not promise God anything so they are free to still look for a spouse.
Hi Zero,

I'm going to quote your posts NOT because I'm somehow trying to pick on them, but because you brought up really good points that I had wanted to include in the original post.

This is something I've thought about as well - that the divorced person's sin is taken in account more heavily because marriage is a lifelong vow and contract before God.

However, it's also something that makes what I'm describing in this thread all the more frustrating (to me, at least) because the person who was willing to take a risk by making that vow seems to be much more heavily punished and restricted, while the person who made the mistake of reaping the benefits of marriage without committing to a marriage (seemingly) gets to start over as many times as they wish.