Is It Possible (Or Even Ethical) To Try to "Toughen Up" a "Nice Guy"?

[seoulsearch]

Is It Possible (Or Even Ethical) To Try to "Toughen Up" a "Nice Guy"?

Hello Everyone,

This may turn into a series of threads (LOL), as I've been thinking a lot lately of the nice guys I've encountered over the years...

Now first of all, I want to make a little disclaimer here in that I am NOT trying to tell all the nice guys out there to stop being polite gentleman and to start being jerks--that's not my point at all. But with all the comments I see and hear about "Nice guys never getting anywhere," I had to take a look at some of my own reasons for not dating some of the "nice guys" I've met over the years.

I'll give you two examples:

1. "Shawn" (NOT his real name)--great guy, new Christian, REALLY, REALLY nice guy. But he was SO nice that some of the things he told me honestly horrified me a bit. For one thing, he was giving away so much money that he was struggling to pay his own bills (I personally believe God DOES call us to help others but DOES NOT call us to put ourselves into places of financial irresponsibility to do it). I repeatedly tried to tell him that God didn't want him to get kicked out of his house because he gave everything he had away and didn't pay his own rent.

Secondly, he would stop to help ANYONE by the side of the road in ANY situation--and he lived in a major city with major highways all around. I begged him to please start making phone calls before just stopping and helping someone by himself, especially at night. I had these horrible thoughts of something terrible happening to him, all because he didn't use common sense for the sake of "being a nice guy."

I liked Shawn a lot, but I honestly couldn't see dating him because I figured if we got married someday, we'd be having knock-down fights because he had just given our car away to someone in need!! I admired his heart but was always encouraging him to find a little more of a balance.

2. Nice guy #2. "Ryan" (again, not his real name). Once again, really nice guy, great heart, someone I once worked with. He was placed in a position of authority and was constantly letting people walk over him, resulting in him getting into trouble or being written up because the work wasn't getting done.

In an effort to try to be helpful (maybe you'll think this was wrong), I would tell him things, like, "Ok, here's a pop quiz--I'm going to pretend to be an employee who's asking to go home early and you're going to give a polite, but firmly assertive answer! Are you game?" (He just kind of smiled and looked at me like I was crazy, but he played along.)

"Ryan," I said, as part of my "pop quiz" question, "I need to jet out of here a little early tonight, ok?" "Weelllll," he said, very slowly, "Um, well... if.... uh... let's see if it slows down, and then, maybe... um... we can see..."

"NO, NO, NO!! Man, you have to start standing up for yourself! YOU'RE getting heat for things that OTHER people are supposed to be getting done!" I said. "Let's try this again!!"

"Ryan," (try number two), "I have some things I need to get done tonight so I'm going to leave in a bit..." and he answered, "Well, um... uh... I'd really... really prefer it if you'd stay your whole shift..."

I just shook my head and had to laugh a little bit. Thank goodness he was good-natured and went along with my antics... and I told him that the reason I was saying these things is because he was a good guy and I didn't like seeing people take advantage of him, but he had to learn to stand up to people on his own. In truth, I was FRUSTRATED. And I couldn't see agreeing to date someone who would probably get fired from his job or at the very least, demoted, because he simply could not say no.

No, I don't want to date a jerk. But I need someone whom I can at least rely on to stand up to me and other people when the occasion arises--is it wrong to expect that?

So what do you all think? Can a nice guy be toughened up, or should you just let a person be who they are and keep going on your way? Or maybe I'm completely wrong and there was nothing that needed to supposedly be changed about these guys? Maybe my frustrations were just due to my own shortcomings?

The good Lord knows there's plenty about me that could be changed as well, so maybe I have no business trying to subtly change another person... It really does frustrate me though, because things like this have stopped me from agreeing to go out with a nice guy. I don't look for jerks--I just stay single!! But it frustrates me just as much to have to pass by a nice guy as it does for the nice guys who tell us they're always passed by!

Have you encountered this as well, and what did you do?

 

[BobPage]

Re: Is It Possible (Or Even Ethical) To Try to "Toughen Up" a "Nice Guy"?

(Be forewarned: Generalizations ahead)

If I was a girl or gay I wouldn't date any of these guys either." Shawn" destroys himself for others and "Ryan" seems to not have enough self-confidence to assert himself. It's like that phrase "You must first love yourself before you love others"

I don't know if you can change the guys but you can try!

 

[Ritter]

Re: Is It Possible (Or Even Ethical) To Try to "Toughen Up" a "Nice Guy"?

Give a nice guy a challenging career.

 

[jimmydiggs]

Re: Is It Possible (Or Even Ethical) To Try to "Toughen Up" a "Nice Guy"?

IMHO the only thing Shawn should change is paying for rent. The roadside stuff... eh, let's be like the levite and just walk by!

Ryan, I think you have a fair assesment

 

[Liz01]

Re: Is It Possible (Or Even Ethical) To Try to "Toughen Up" a "Nice Guy"?

To be honest, I love nice guys, but the nice guys i like are : honest, with faith in God, try to do what bible says, with leadership, and definetely i prefer the assertive guys, but that follows what God wants with humility.

I dont like bad guys who are harsh, disobedient and those ones that are arrogant when they try that everybody think that they are "self-confident"

And i think that men that you mention in your example (that doesnt have leadership in them) need to grow in Christ, because they will be the head of their families according to God, so i think that those kind of men need to learn how to have that leadership to be good christians (or good guys) but i think too that its not our job (as women) to teach them that.

So......i think patience is not the most easy thing lol, but im sure that if God wants, you will find a guy perfect for you.

 

[Matthew]

Re: Is It Possible (Or Even Ethical) To Try to "Toughen Up" a "Nice Guy"?

On one hand people aren't projects whose flaws once identified need to fixed, but on the other we should all guide people we care about to become aware of their problems for their own benefit, if we don't do this then we are perhaps failing as friends.

If someone is a romantic possibilty then it's cause to be more careful, it's easy to try and make someone aware of an issue you see while telling yourself it's a friendly gesture when it's actually an attempt to mould them to your preference.

In the examples you stated I think you were right, too much selflessness is ultimately self-destructive, and it sounds like these two guys had this problem to different extents, and it was a good act of friendship to try and make them aware.

Piglet Rules!!!

 

[seoulsearch]

Re: Is It Possible (Or Even Ethical) To Try to "Toughen Up" a "Nice Guy"?

IMHO the only thing Shawn should change is paying for rent. The roadside stuff... eh, let's be like the levite and just walk by!

Ryan, I think you have a fair assesment

Just to clarify... Shawn lived in a major city that wasn't exactly known for its safety record. He also lived near a large prison with signs along the highway that said, "DO NOT pick up hitchhikers," because of escapes and so forth.

If you can picture stopping to help people broken down on the side of the road in the middle of the night (he would often be driving on these roads around midnight because he lived an hour and a half from his church), that's what he was doing.

Maybe I was wrong for this, but I told him he needed to call the police or other emergency-type people instead of just stopping alone by himself.

And Matthew, all I can say to YOU is... NO WAY!!! Tigger bounces over the universe. (Just trying to toughen you up a bit. Piglet is way too neurotic and passive... Tigger is adventurous and assertive.)

 

[Ugly]

Re: Is It Possible (Or Even Ethical) To Try to "Toughen Up" a "Nice Guy"?

Why should you try to change anyone? Accept a person for how they are, and if who they are isn't what you like, then move on. I think it's very selfish of a person to think they have the right to make someone be something they're not, for their own wants. A person like that is not ready for relationship since its obvious your only intent in the relationship is what you want and can get out of it.
And even if you can get someone to change their behavior, it won't last, as they will eventually get tired of the charade and revert to their old selves, or worse yet, lash out in anger for feeling controlled. And this goes for all people, not just 'nice guys'.

 

[Tobby17]

Re: Is It Possible (Or Even Ethical) To Try to "Toughen Up" a "Nice Guy"?

It's NATURE... And it's

 

[Ritter]

Re: Is It Possible (Or Even Ethical) To Try to "Toughen Up" a "Nice Guy"?

Why should you try to change anyone? Accept a person for how they are, and if who they are isn't what you like, then move on. I think it's very selfish of a person to think they have the right to make someone be something they're not, for their own wants. A person like that is not ready for relationship since its obvious your only intent in the relationship is what you want and can get out of it.
And even if you can get someone to change their behavior, it won't last, as they will eventually get tired of the charade and revert to their old selves, or worse yet, lash out in anger for feeling controlled. And this goes for all people, not just 'nice guys'.

I agree, but then there is a balance. There is more or less a social responsibility to touch others in a way that drives them to improve themselves.

Outside the realm ethics, I wouldn't bet on change though.

 

[seoulsearch]

Re: Is It Possible (Or Even Ethical) To Try to "Toughen Up" a "Nice Guy"?

Why should you try to change anyone? Accept a person for how they are, and if who they are isn't what you like, then move on. I think it's very selfish of a person to think they have the right to make someone be something they're not, for their own wants. A person like that is not ready for relationship since its obvious your only intent in the relationship is what you want and can get out of it.
And even if you can get someone to change their behavior, it won't last, as they will eventually get tired of the charade and revert to their old selves, or worse yet, lash out in anger for feeling controlled. And this goes for all people, not just 'nice guys'.

Nope, my interest in a relationship most certainly isn't just in what I can get out of it. I've had four relationships in my life (to nice guys), and in that time I've tried to be as helpful as possible.

And yes, I could accept the things that were and the way they were to a point. This meant I wound up paying for things like their bills, insurance, babysitters, court cases, treatments for alcoholism, anger (mis) management etc. Remember the nice guy in my example who let people run over him and it threatened his job? This wasn't my first experience with guys who had a hard time holding jobs. And my reason for trying so hard in relationships wasn't in a self-righteous way, it was in an "I love this person and want to help him" kind of way.

My other thought is that nice guys always say they get looked over... and these may be some of the reasons why. Not that they need to be changed or can be changed... but they they wonder why they don't get girlfriends and are often angry about it, when these may be some of the reasons why... At least... these were just some of my own experiences.

As Ritter said, there must be a balance. I'm just wondering what your own experience is in your relationships, Ugly? And if you've found the same thing?

I think most anyone in relationships, especially very long term, will find there are things you wish you could change about someone AND things they wish they could change about you. You're right in that some things will change... and with others, you may be blessed enough to find a compromise.

 

[GreenNnice]

Re: Is It Possible (Or Even Ethical) To Try to "Toughen Up" a "Nice Guy"?

Nope, my interest in a relationship most certainly isn't just in what I can get out of it. I've had four relationships in my life (to nice guys), and in that time I've tried to be as helpful as possible.

And yes, I could accept the things that were and the way they were to a point. This meant I wound up paying for things like their bills, insurance, babysitters, court cases, treatments for alcoholism, anger (mis) management etc. Remember the nice guy in my example who let people run over him and it threatened his job? This wasn't my first experience with guys who had a hard time holding jobs. And my reason for trying so hard in relationships wasn't in a self-righteous way, it was in an "I love this person and want to help him" kind of way.

My other thought is that nice guys always say they get looked over... and these may be some of the reasons why. Not that they need to be changed or can be changed... but they they wonder why they don't get girlfriends and are often angry about it, when these may be some of the reasons why... At least... these were just some of my own experiences.

As Ritter said, there must be a balance. I'm just wondering what your own experience is in your relationships, Ugly? And if you've found the same thing?

I think most anyone in relationships, especially very long term, will find there are things you wish you could change about someone AND things they wish they could change about you. You're right in that some things will change... and with others, you may be blessed enough to find a compromise.

-----
Change is good IF it's from God.

Otherwise....
------

Seoulsearching, these two 'nice guys' need Godly direction in their life, plain and simple. By virtue of what you said in your posts:

1. Mad at why not getting girlfriends. I see 'bitterness' to God shown here. It shows they are not doing things RIGHT !

Now, green, what is right? Well, these guys are with lost self-esteem. Easy to get it back thankfully, said to akl you
Nice Guys out there And take, too.

They need to submit their lives to God's authority. When that happens, these nice guys will.be SO blessed for helping others, like their employees asking for time off early.

People, it is amazing what God does in YOUR life when you submit the ALL of it to Him and best TOLKIEN His will for your life.

I am by no means saying I am perfect doing this 'following' I speak of, but I true my best in situatuons I am in in life to give glory, honor, and, fellowship too, to God. It is a personal relationship with US God so so desires. The Holy Spirit is not just a name -and nothing more-the Holy Spirit is God ! Part of what? Or 'who' rather, part of who? God and Jesus and the Holy Spirit are ONE . Right, don't take my word for it either. Take scripture's (word) !

Seoul, I think IF you are going to he friends with these nice guys, great, but BRING God into the equation , er, situation, rather. Why do that? Because God put you in these nice guys life to not CHANGE their life on your own but with Him .

God KNOWS that nice guys need a certain person to steer them toward a love of themselves but they can't do it on their own, can't right their own failing ship, so to speak. And, YOU can't help them right 'it' , that is, right their 'ship' right without CHOOSING wrong ways to help.them. And, and, I am trying to help YOU now, Seoul, see that the 4 nice guys you've dated were not coincidentally out there by God,, they were put there for God's plan for your Iam life.

God bless you, good seeing you on here again

 

[Henry_YZ]

Re: Is It Possible (Or Even Ethical) To Try to "Toughen Up" a "Nice Guy"?

I don't think it's wrong to tell a guy who's not being careful with his money or around strangers to be careful, nor I think it's wrong to tell a guy who gets walked over by people to toughen up because others are taking advantage of him. We would only be trying to help them since they're doing or allowing things to happen that might harm them.
I guess maybe the question arises because a girl might have feelings for the guy and doesn't wanna change him, even tho she wants him to be different. Or maybe she might wonder if she should help him cuz guys might think they're supposed to be "macho" and not listen to advice. Well I think the right thing should be done, if someone is in need of help, we should help. It's up to everyone to listen to advice or not.

 

[needsadvice]

Re: Is It Possible (Or Even Ethical) To Try to "Toughen Up" a "Nice Guy"?

I don't think it's fair to try to change someone because you think they should be acting a certain way. If it's for their own good, you can advise them as a friend but not frustrate yourself over it because they might think something is terribly wrong with them when they see you act like that. God is the only one that can change someone, and maybe they don't even feel they are being taken advantage of the way you may think and they are happy with the way they are.

 

[Henry_YZ]

Re: Is It Possible (Or Even Ethical) To Try to "Toughen Up" a "Nice Guy"?

I don't think it's fair to try to change someone because you think they should be acting a certain way. If it's for their own good, you can advise them as a friend but not frustrate yourself over it because they might think something is terribly wrong with them when they see you act like that. God is the only one that can change someone, and maybe they don't even feel they are being taken advantage of the way you may think and they are happy with the way they are.

I totally agree. Helping someone is one thing, changing someone is another thing.

 

[acesneverwin]

Re: Is It Possible (Or Even Ethical) To Try to "Toughen Up" a "Nice Guy"?

Seeing as I'm one of these "nice guys" I'll give you my opinion. It IS something I think any nice guy would WANT to change. If someone helped me out, I'd love it. Just they have to realize they have problems and the desire to change. I have a ton of problems that makes me act this way. I hated myself as a little kid. I didn't think I measured up to other guys at all. I let people walk all over me in a bid so people would like me. I AVOID confrontation just because I'm afraid of getting on some one's bad side. I'm also not assertive because I don't want to be rude... is it rude? No it's just you're thinking all these negative thoughts like what the person might think and how they would react. Same with girls, I wouldn't ask one out just cause I think I'd make a terrible boy friend. Mostly cause of all the problems above... I wouldn't beable to stand up for them. Too much of a push over. Not confident enough in myself to take charge as a guy or caring about myself enough to take care of me first. I can understand why girls would see this as unattractive. Heck I think it's repulsive... If someone noticed and cared enough to help me out, I would welcome it.

Now for me, I do watch other guys who are both good but confident in themselves enough to just live and let live rather than being a back bending carpet. And I try to think of how they would react in certain situations and such. But sometimes things catch you off gaurd and you're left in the "ummm well ehh" kind of unconfident, unassertive, don't wanna be mean kind of thing.

I feel SOOO much better when I do stand up for myself and everything flows naturally.

My dad was always like both your examples, while my mom was always a lot like your second example. And I absolutely hated it. I also realized how much I do it myself and I'm mostly like the number 2 guy. Anyway, I hate it. And I'm not gonna piss and moan over not having a girl friend because of it. I wouldn't wanna be with a person like that. I couldn't stand the things my dad would do and how he acted with people. I couldn't stand how my mom was always complaining how she wished she would have said no or got talked into something she didn't wanna do.

Look at the men in the bible. NONE of them were like this. David, Solomon, Paul... plenty of others... of course Jesus... NONE of them were carpets and none of them bent out of the way so people would like them. I really like David. There's a guy at work I really like a lot too because he's very nice but very assertive (he's real playful about it but no is a no) and confident in himself and just fun to be around. Obviously cares for his family a lot. So I try to mimic that a bit better. Of course, I'll never get over it completely till I'm actually confident in myself and actually care about myself more... until then, a girl friend is LAST on my mind. I want to be a GOOD husband and a GOOD dad... not just a nice floozy one...

Also this is hard to make good friends btw... so I think they would want to change anyway. You're so busy pleasing everyone and being a chameleon with everyone that you don't get to know people well. You're like seaweed... going back and forth in the tide. Never firm. People don't want friends like that either.

So anyway... I would encourage helping them change if they want too. Or help them see how they can be a good man without being a pushover people pleaser. That's really the first thing. Being able to see and understand what's wrong and then looking for a way to try and work at it. There MIGHT be deeper stuff underneath that they're gonna have to face and challenge first but anything is possible with Christ.

 

[seoulsearch]

Re: Is It Possible (Or Even Ethical) To Try to "Toughen Up" a "Nice Guy"?

I really appreciate everyone's feedback and hope more women will comment on whether they've run into this as well... and if they've been tempted to change someone or not.

I've been concluding a really good point that many people have been making--I am wrong in thinking that I can make the change in someone because God can make the change, and also, I should really pray first and see what God would want me to say to them in the first place.

I think it starts out as having good intentions... caring about someone and not wanting to see them get hurt or abused, but then sometimes maybe it morphs into changing a person in a way you can't or shouldn't change them, or, you become too zealous or pushy in trying to help them. For example, with "Ryan", I would always feel bad for him when I saw that he had been reprimanded by the boss, etc. for letting people go home early and I guess I thought I could help by saying something.

I do agree that it's hard to make good friends and even harder to find a balance between standing up for yourself and behaving in a Godly manner, and that there are many underlying issues of life that get in the way. I promise to try to think (and pray) things through a little more before thinking I can "help" a person. I also DO try to be very clear in my intention--I will tell the person that the reason I'm even mentioning it is because I care about him and what happens to him, that I don't like seeing him taken advantage of... but I'll try to proceed more cautiously from now on.

 

[Ugly]

Re: Is It Possible (Or Even Ethical) To Try to "Toughen Up" a "Nice Guy"?

I agree, but then there is a balance. There is more or less a social responsibility to touch others in a way that drives them to improve themselves.

Outside the realm ethics, I wouldn't bet on change though.

i knew someone would say something like this. there is a difference between trying to change someone who isn't asking to be changed...... that you happen to change someone in your interactions with them....... and being a help and encouragement to someone who desires to change. The implication of the question seemed to be more of the first one, and thats how i answered. Therefore no real reason to bring up the others.

 

[Ugly]

Re: Is It Possible (Or Even Ethical) To Try to "Toughen Up" a "Nice Guy"?

Nope, my interest in a relationship most certainly isn't just in what I can get out of it. I've had four relationships in my life (to nice guys), and in that time I've tried to be as helpful as possible.

And yes, I could accept the things that were and the way they were to a point. This meant I wound up paying for things like their bills, insurance, babysitters, court cases, treatments for alcoholism, anger (mis) management etc. Remember the nice guy in my example who let people run over him and it threatened his job? This wasn't my first experience with guys who had a hard time holding jobs. And my reason for trying so hard in relationships wasn't in a self-righteous way, it was in an "I love this person and want to help him" kind of way.

My other thought is that nice guys always say they get looked over... and these may be some of the reasons why. Not that they need to be changed or can be changed... but they they wonder why they don't get girlfriends and are often angry about it, when these may be some of the reasons why... At least... these were just some of my own experiences.

As Ritter said, there must be a balance. I'm just wondering what your own experience is in your relationships, Ugly? And if you've found the same thing?

I think most anyone in relationships, especially very long term, will find there are things you wish you could change about someone AND things they wish they could change about you. You're right in that some things will change... and with others, you may be blessed enough to find a compromise.

Bottom line if the person isn't looking to actually change then it's no ones place to push them into change. You could try approaching them about the situation, but still, if they don't want to change then that's their call.

If a 'nice guy' (which isn't an accurate description) is being treated like a doormat, you have the option of ending a relationship with them. If it cost you money, or whatever else, well, that's on you for staying. Its not right to blame him for that when you made the choice to stay.

My experience is that i don't date casually. I don't approach random women to date. I've never believed in that. I wait til someone captures my attention in a way that no one else does. There are tons of nice looking women, or nice women.. but i look for the one that sticks out from the pack. Then i befriend her. I get to know her, and if as i get to know her she proves to be someone i get to like more and more... and if i get a sense she feels the same, then i start becoming more obvious. Eventually i will get to asking her out. That way i bypass the whole 'dating scene' type mentality and don't waste a night with someone i don't know. Worst case scenario, i make a good friend. Best case i get a wife. haha. So i don't really have an issue with the 'nice guy' syndrome because the women are more likely to open up and be more obvious about how they feel and i can take time to feel out the situation.

On a side note, i consider myself a 'nice guy' type, but i am not a doormat to everyone either.

 

[GreenNnice]

Re: Is It Possible (Or Even Ethical) To Try to "Toughen Up" a "Nice Guy"?

I really appreciate everyone's feedback and hope more women will comment on whether they've run into this as well... and if they've been tempted to change someone or not.

I've been concluding a really good point that many people have been making--I am wrong in thinking that I can make the change in someone because God can make the change, and also, I should really pray first and see what God would want me to say to them in the first place.

I think it starts out as having good intentions... caring about someone and not wanting to see them get hurt or abused, but then sometimes maybe it morphs into changing a person in a way you can't or shouldn't change them, or, you become too zealous or pushy in trying to help them. For example, with "Ryan", I would always feel bad for him when I saw that he had been reprimanded by the boss, etc. for letting people go home early and I guess I thought I could help by saying something.

I do agree that it's hard to make good friends and even harder to find a balance between standing up for yourself and behaving in a Godly manner, and that there are many underlying issues of life that get in the way. I promise to try to think (and pray) things through a little more before thinking I can "help" a person. I also DO try to be very clear in my intention--I will tell the person that the reason I'm even mentioning it is because I care about him and what happens to him, that I don't like seeing him taken advantage of... but I'll try to proceed more cautiously from now on.

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God sees you through the situations you choose for your life, but, Seoulsearching, God also LEADS us into situations that will bless us and, of course, glorify Him. It's a win-win situation

God put Ryan and other guys in your life not necessarily for marriage potential but life-changing direction.

I am going to be a critical in closing, Seoul... , so, sorry, in advance if this hurts you, but I see you as a potentially abrasive individual to a guy because you seemingly said you visibly (vocally) became upset at these 'nice guys' for having giving hearts to others at expense of their personal well-being.

Being totally unselfish is something a lot of guys would love to attain, you've dated (nice) guys like this.

Maybe God is preparing them for missionary work where giving is a lot more important than getting , or, even as one of the nice guys you dated said he would give to help.others, of self , of money, and, that affected you to get in his face and tell him you didn't think God was having Him give when wasn't able to pay his rent.

The word 'rent' to me, I should say, is a transitory word, so, having trouble paying the rent is not as big as, say, paying a mortgage, which is a more permanent term. So.....

I am not sure if what I said here (or in my previous post) makes sense to you, I hope and pray. but I think your attitude to these 2 guys ,who very well were doing dumb things to hinder their life progress but who also may very well be have been doing God's plan for their life, was mitigating to them.

Your promise to.yourself to pray more once involved in a 'nice guy' relationship is a good thing you said, God bless