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Caution: this might ruffle some feathers. I've developed a habit of doing that.
I was thinking about the phrase "if you had evidence (or proof), there would be no need for faith." This seems to suggest that faith is not something you acquire or maintain with your intellect, but must instead be wholly apart from it. Those who begin to ask for evidence that God exists is at best told about subjective personal experiences or feelings about the supernatural; at worst they are told there is no evidence! And when a person starts to inquire they might get weird looks from others, who are content to simply believe with no reason beyond "my family raised me Christian" or "I had an exciting experience." I don't by any means condemn people who hold those as reasons for being Christian, but for some (like myself) that's usually not enough. They might get looked at weird, or even worse: they might be accused of being faithless. But is this true?
The Greek word rendered "faith" is pistis. It also means "trust." I have been taught that Christian faith is not just belief that God exists, but rather trusting God in all his perfection, power, and goodness. It's not just some fact in the mind, it's a matter of the will. So, for the sake of this argument, let us substitute "faith" with "trust." What do we get?
"If you had evidence (or proof), there would be no need for trust."
1. Does evidence really remove the need for trust? I don't think so. There are famous atheists who understand the evidence and logic for God's existence, yet they do not have faith. That is because they don't trust God - in his existence, or in his perfection. They do not chance their behavior to glorify God. Evidence can lead you to God, but it can't make you trust God. Only the Holy Spirit can do that. Therefore, evidence doesn't substitute trust.
2. If our faith is not to be based upon evidence, then we are in quite a tough spot! After all, do we not believe the Bible to be the ultimate proof of God's existence and goodness? Oh my, imagine if we had to throw away our own Bible so that we might have true "faith," apart from evidence. Clearly, our faith is based upon evidence - we would call the Bible proof of God!
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I guess part of the reason I write this is because I really dislike the way contemporary Christianity has separated faith from the intellect.
I was thinking about the phrase "if you had evidence (or proof), there would be no need for faith." This seems to suggest that faith is not something you acquire or maintain with your intellect, but must instead be wholly apart from it. Those who begin to ask for evidence that God exists is at best told about subjective personal experiences or feelings about the supernatural; at worst they are told there is no evidence! And when a person starts to inquire they might get weird looks from others, who are content to simply believe with no reason beyond "my family raised me Christian" or "I had an exciting experience." I don't by any means condemn people who hold those as reasons for being Christian, but for some (like myself) that's usually not enough. They might get looked at weird, or even worse: they might be accused of being faithless. But is this true?
The Greek word rendered "faith" is pistis. It also means "trust." I have been taught that Christian faith is not just belief that God exists, but rather trusting God in all his perfection, power, and goodness. It's not just some fact in the mind, it's a matter of the will. So, for the sake of this argument, let us substitute "faith" with "trust." What do we get?
"If you had evidence (or proof), there would be no need for trust."
1. Does evidence really remove the need for trust? I don't think so. There are famous atheists who understand the evidence and logic for God's existence, yet they do not have faith. That is because they don't trust God - in his existence, or in his perfection. They do not chance their behavior to glorify God. Evidence can lead you to God, but it can't make you trust God. Only the Holy Spirit can do that. Therefore, evidence doesn't substitute trust.
2. If our faith is not to be based upon evidence, then we are in quite a tough spot! After all, do we not believe the Bible to be the ultimate proof of God's existence and goodness? Oh my, imagine if we had to throw away our own Bible so that we might have true "faith," apart from evidence. Clearly, our faith is based upon evidence - we would call the Bible proof of God!
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I guess part of the reason I write this is because I really dislike the way contemporary Christianity has separated faith from the intellect.
J
Totally agree on that.
I think, however, in reaction to that there has been an overreaction by people like William Lane Craig, who advance what is called evidentialism. That we have to PROVE God exists. If we are to stay true to scripture, we're not to see it in that light. Not saying we cannot use evidence, but that we must bear in mind scripture never asks the question. It assumes the answer. Scripture starts with "God exists, and this is what he is doing" rather than "is there a god? Let's find out!"
I think you have to find the proper balance of faith/hope, and what we might call evidence. That is part of why I embrace what is called "Pressuppositionalism".
A biblical definition of faith is one that requires the bible. Using another definition for faith against the biblical definition as a reason for the need of evidence is a bit of a problem, don't you think?
I think, however, in reaction to that there has been an overreaction by people like William Lane Craig, who advance what is called evidentialism. That we have to PROVE God exists. If we are to stay true to scripture, we're not to see it in that light. Not saying we cannot use evidence, but that we must bear in mind scripture never asks the question. It assumes the answer. Scripture starts with "God exists, and this is what he is doing" rather than "is there a god? Let's find out!"
I think you have to find the proper balance of faith/hope, and what we might call evidence. That is part of why I embrace what is called "Pressuppositionalism".
A biblical definition of faith is one that requires the bible. Using another definition for faith against the biblical definition as a reason for the need of evidence is a bit of a problem, don't you think?
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J
Hah. I bet my cars go faster. I've been a mind racer for as long as I can remember. It's not all bad though, because I often write mental essays, practice saying things a certain way, etc... much of it has been rather beneficial. Then there are the nights where I need to go to sleep fast, and my mind says otherwise.
G
Hah. I bet my cars go faster. I've been a mind racer for as long as I can remember. It's not all bad though, because I often write mental essays, practice saying things a certain way, etc... much of it has been rather beneficial. Then there are the nights where I need to go to sleep fast, and my mind says otherwise.
CC is the first forum I've ever joined and even though I've "been here" for a couple months, I still feel a little... shy. However, I will say that I came here expecting to just browse around for various perspectives on random Biblical topics but instead I found that plus a community of unique, interesting, genuine individuals who engage in amazing fellowship with one another. I'm thankful for the things my brothers and sisters in Christ are sharing on here and I hope I can get up the nerve to start engaging a little more.
on a completely unrelated note, I would just like to bemoan the fact that it is mid-May and there is currently a snow storm swirling around right outside my door. *sigh* oh well. God has a plan for everything.. even this!
However, I will say that I came here expecting to just browse around for various perspectives on random Biblical topics but instead I found that plus a community of unique, interesting, genuine individuals who engage in amazing fellowship with one another. I'm thankful for the things my brothers and sisters in Christ are sharing on here and I hope I can get up the nerve to start engaging a little more. on a completely unrelated note, I would just like to bemoan the fact that it is mid-May and there is currently a snow storm swirling around right outside my door. *sigh* oh well. God has a plan for everything.. even this!
G
LittleChristone, what you need is lavender in color, and, not so coincidentally, in picture, too Seriously, go get some lavender oil from super supplements and breathe it in (go online for proper usage). Buy it from all that coin gained from all that money you made of unloading/loading the dishwasher and sewing-for-mom, and, taking care of your baby brother or sister (if you got one(s) , or , whatever money. I've heard, anyway, lavender works, and, get a aromatherapy device too, think Wal-Mart sells them. Maybe, if not enough money, mom, dad, help out because it help you stay healthier thankfully, PTL, I dont' get headaches hardly ever, but, yeah, I've heard the flower has properties in it that make your headache just go away If that doesn't work , take two aspirin and call me in the morning
Thirdly, or, rather, before you go get the lavender or do anything else, pray, it helps, beyond understanding, when we just have faith and ask God to show us how to take that throbbing brain pain away, whatever pain, He cares, He comforts, He is ALWAYS there with us, inside us, wanting to let us know the glass is always FULL (never empty) when we keep it filled of Him in our life
Seriously, go get some lavender oil from super supplements and breathe it in (go online for proper usage). Buy it from all that coin gained from all that money you made of unloading/loading the dishwasher and sewing-for-mom, and, taking care of your baby brother or sister (if you got one(s) , or , whatever money. I've heard, anyway, lavender works, and, get a aromatherapy device too, think Wal-Mart sells them. Maybe, if not enough money, mom, dad, help out because it help you stay healthier thankfully, PTL, I dont' get headaches hardly ever, but, yeah, I've heard the flower has properties in it that make your headache just go away If that doesn't work , take two aspirin and call me in the morning Thirdly, or, rather, before you go get the lavender or do anything else, pray, it helps, beyond understanding, when we just have faith and ask God to show us how to take that throbbing brain pain away, whatever pain, He cares, He comforts, He is ALWAYS there with us, inside us, wanting to let us know the glass is always FULL (never empty) when we keep it filled of Him in our life
I
Very interesting post. If God has dealt every man the measure of "faith" (trust) to believe Him & His word,then I think that faith or trust in God is dependent upon our choice,hence...choose this day whom you will serve. Certainly I don't think God wants any of his children to have a mindless faith in him. If we are to renew our minds & have the mind of Christ,I would think that in fact suggests having some form of true intellect. I could be way off. Thank you for posting what you did shawn...something to think on a bit today.
G
I want to rep this comment (but don't know how) and I encourage everyone to give a 'rep' vote to LIGHT's words to them in the past 24 hours. The Lord leads.
1 Corinthians 3 comes to mind, too, LIGHT, you really are tearing it up on here lately, even though I saw your stark ability to communicate immediately in your handling of sentences in the 5 and 10 letter word games AsIFinPassing (Reecebuddy!!) brought for us.
Arwenbaggins, too, 'rep' her, EVUHREEBAHDEE, I say that for obvious reasons, and, sorry, this hopefully is not a bad stream of consciousness to put all this here on right now. I pray I 'go' where He leads me. The Lord does lead
1 Corinthians 3 comes to mind, too, LIGHT, you really are tearing it up on here lately, even though I saw your stark ability to communicate immediately in your handling of sentences in the 5 and 10 letter word games AsIFinPassing (Reecebuddy!!) brought for us.
Arwenbaggins, too, 'rep' her, EVUHREEBAHDEE, I say that for obvious reasons, and, sorry, this hopefully is not a bad stream of consciousness to put all this here on right now. I pray I 'go' where He leads me. The Lord does lead
Hah. I bet my cars go faster. I've been a mind racer for as long as I can remember. It's not all bad though, because I often write mental essays, practice saying things a certain way, etc... much of it has been rather beneficial. Then there are the nights where I need to go to sleep fast, and my mind says otherwise.
I've been thinking about thinking alot. About perspective, perception, and how much people actually use these abilities. How thoughts are a blessing and a curse. Good things and bad things have come out of my thoughts, and I over-think it a lot, but what's over-thinking? So many people don't take the time to think, so am I just using the God-given potential to just think about things?
If I'm not careful I'm gonna give myself a migraine again. >.<
If I'm not careful I'm gonna give myself a migraine again. >.<
