The Veto Concept

[Rachel20]

I have often heard many Christians, both men and women, claiming that in a family, the final decision is always taken by the husband.

In case there is a disagreement between the husband and the wife, the husband still takes the final decision and hence in a way can overrule his wife…. Or veto a wife.

This stems from the verses that the husband is the head of the wife and so forth.

He is seen as a leader and as responsible for the entire household.

While most people don’t seem to bat an eyelash for this, this whole concept bewilders me.

Actually, I have only heard all this since I joined CC. The people that I interact with, who call themselves Christians find this as alien as I do.

I look to my parents as a model example for a marriage. They have been married for almost 26 years now and they have been through everything together.

They are friends and equals in every way and their relationship is something that I aspire to.

The last thing I would want is my husband taking the full responsibility of every single decision or even overturning my desires for something he wants.

If we were friends, we would take every decision together. If we reached a stalemate, we would create decision tables, look at all other possibilities, solutions or just flip a coin.

Perhaps it is an unpopular opinion but I just can’t swallow the idea of some guy telling me, “ Ok you have told me what you think of it, now I will take the final decision.”

I would not just nag, but throw that guy on the roof.




********************************************


I am being honest and I know many people who bring up the veto concept in forums.

For a while I used to parrot them and in fact there is standard line for talking about submission.

“When in Christ, submission is a beautiful thing”


I too have written such posts on submission and I totally distance myself from that. No matter which angle I look at, it puts women in a pathetic position and in this age and the times that we live in it is absolutely unrealistic.

I used to feel the pressure of wanting to appear godly and how claiming a degree of “grossness” towards submission meant me being seen otherwise.

Good thing I learnt how all such pontifications of submission doesn’t guarantee you being a godly person.

I submit to my parents.

Their head start in terms of knowledge and wisdom and their sheer love and sacrifice for me is reason enough.

Do we at least look at the husband's educational/personal qualifications to guarantee his position of absolute leadership?

Yes the husband is the head of the wife. That's what the Bible says.

Yet the culture was totally different to what we have now... Contexts are so different.

For a proper exegesis of anything the context of what was written in Scripture has to be thoroughly examined.

Whatever it is... Open to discussion.

 

[cmarieh]

I am a huge believer in submitting to a husband in everything, but that doesn't mean that the wife can just sit back and be treated like a doormat either. When I am at that point in my life I desire to look to my husband to finalize a decision and never second guess him. Submitting is something that comes naturally for me and my parents have been married 24 years next month and I too look up to them as an example of a Godly marriage.

 

[Shouryu]

Yes the husband is the head of the wife. That's what the Bible says.

Yet the culture was totally different to what we have now... Contexts are so different.

People change.

Cultures change.

God doesn't.



When I look at my role as the head of the household, THIS is how I interpret it:

Family member: "What do you think about this?"
Head of family: *prays, fasts, studies the Word*..."God says this, and that is what we shall do."

The husband is the head of the wife...BUT CHRIST IS HEAD OF THE HUSBAND. In ALL things, I want to be sure that I am in submission to Christ, so that my wife should never doubt my choices. But you know what? If I'm NOT thinking straight, I want the confidence that my wife will help me see that I am not aligned with Christ's will. "Husband...is this REALLY His will for us? Have you really prayed over it and asked the Spirit for guidance?" To me, that's EXACTLY the kind of help I want and I need. Not that she's going to make the decisions FOR me, but help me make the right decisions.

I think we often lose sight of the part where the husband must submit...because, truthfully, the husband must be MORE submissive than the wife. I think Christ's expectations of us are even higher than our spouse's...that means as husbands, we have to work even harder to make sure we're following Him all the way. The responsibility falls on the man to submit to Christ to the point where his wife wouldn't have a reason to be overruled.

 

[Shouryu]

Do we at least look at the husband's educational/personal qualifications to guarantee his position of absolute leadership?

Also...this is a huge point. You hit the nail on the head here, even if you don't realize it.

If a Godly woman has looked me over thoroughly and decided that I do not submit to Christ to her standards, and chooses to not marry me as a result...THEN SHE'S PROBABLY RIGHT. In the prior post, I place full responsibility on the husband, NOT ON THE WIFE, when it comes to submission. However, I hope that my future wife spends enough time with me and in my life, as well as in prayer and communication with God, to know whether or not I am the Godly, spiritually-minded man that deserves her. In a sense, that is YOUR responsibility - to know who you are marrying, and to make sure that you KNOW that it is God's will that you marry that man. Unfortunately, the wolves in sheep's clothing do make this even more difficult, which is why it is all the more important that even when we (men and women both) are enamoured with a romantic partner, that we are still spiritually fixated on Christ. If we're doing that to our utmost, I have to believe that the Spirit would immediately raise red flags and doubts within us if the person we're thinking of marrying was not all he or she appeared to be.

And...as I said before...people change. God doesn't, but PEOPLE do. That's always the biggest danger...and why I pray so much that should He bless me with a wife, that it's the kind of woman who wants to be sure that I'm always in Christ's will, because she's always in Christ's will.

I expect my best friends to call me out when I ain't right. That's how they help me. God calls us His friend, and His Spirit certainly calls us out when we're not right. What is a spouse, if not your bestest friend? How better can a wife help me than to ask, "Are you in the Spirit or in the flesh on this?" Because if I can't answer immediately, without hesitation or conviction, she's already helped me better than any human on this earth could have.

 

[Rachel20]

Also...this is a huge point. You hit the nail on the head here, even if you don't realize it.

If a Godly woman has looked me over thoroughly and decided that I do not submit to Christ to her standards, and chooses to not marry me as a result...THEN SHE'S PROBABLY RIGHT. In the prior post, I place full responsibility on the husband, NOT ON THE WIFE, when it comes to submission. However, I hope that my future wife spends enough time with me and in my life, as well as in prayer and communication with God, to know whether or not I am the Godly, spiritually-minded man that deserves her. In a sense, that is YOUR responsibility - to know who you are marrying, and to make sure that you KNOW that it is God's will that you marry that man. Unfortunately, the wolves in sheep's clothing do make this even more difficult, which is why it is all the more important that even when we (men and women both) are enamoured with a romantic partner, that we are still spiritually fixated on Christ. If we're doing that to our utmost, I have to believe that the Spirit would immediately raise red flags and doubts within us if the person we're thinking of marrying was not all he or she appeared to be.

And...as I said before...people change. God doesn't, but PEOPLE do. That's always the biggest danger...and why I pray so much that should He bless me with a wife, that it's the kind of woman who wants to be sure that I'm always in Christ's will, because she's always in Christ's will.

I expect my best friends to call me out when I ain't right. That's how they help me. God calls us His friend, and His Spirit certainly calls us out when we're not right. What is a spouse, if not your bestest friend? How better can a wife help me than to ask, "Are you in the Spirit or in the flesh on this?" Because if I can't answer immediately, without hesitation or conviction, she's already helped me better than any human on this earth could have.

I really like this post of yours...but I don't think I am in total agreement with your first.

I typed my reply to your first before this one... but I am just pasting it here anyway.

I appreciate the way you claim you would handle everything.

God bless


*************REPLY TO FIRST *********************

I think we often lose sight of the part where the husband must submit...because, truthfully, the husband must be MORE submissive than the wife. I think Christ's expectations of us are even higher than our spouse's...that means as husbands, we have to work even harder to make sure we're following Him all the way. The responsibility falls on the man to submit to Christ to the point where his wife wouldn't have a reason to be overruled.

I agree with you here... except that I find it more of a justification than anything.

The idea of the husband having to work harder, is also something that I keep hearing from many other Christians but more in the context of the verse "Love as Christ loved the church".

Many Christians claim this as a very high standard and difficult to emulate. Well which is very true. Why else do we often say no-one can love like God?

At best, we all fall short of it.

If I had to walk the path of wisdom and common sense, I would not give a whole, resolute staunch "veto" position to another human being. [No matter how much he fasts and prays.]

Two are better than one.

Hence, hopefully in my household we would not have an absolute structure of power which in any way undermines me as an educated and capable woman.

I would expect my husband and I to carefully look at all possibilities, go through all situations and then come to a decision together and united.

There's no question of me being overruled or him being disrespected. Just being smart.

I've seen best friends doing it in marriages. It does work.


People change. Cultures Change.

That's why we don't have slavery, polygamy and marriages to rapists that are never cancelled, even though God is the same.

 

[Breeze7]

I think people have the right idea here. Look to Christ, look to the word. Just as a person( regardless about status), what would you come up with for an answer. After doing this, take those answers and see if both husband and wife match. If not place your ideas side by side as equals. Look again to Christ or the word, then perhaps you'll find something else and be able to compromise. The heart...

 

[sienna1388]

There needs to be honor and respect on both sides. And trust! If your husband has shown again and again that he seeks after the Lord, and when it comes to decision making he turns to the Word, then this is a man you can trust. And even if he makes a goofy decision, God can make it work out anyway. With God endorsing the husband, ultimately you can't go wrong.

 

[cinder]

When I look at my role as the head of the household, THIS is how I interpret it:

Family member: "What do you think about this?"
Head of family: *prays, fasts, studies the Word*..."God says this, and that is what we shall do."

The husband is the head of the wife...BUT CHRIST IS HEAD OF THE HUSBAND. In ALL things, I want to be sure that I am in submission to Christ, so that my wife should never doubt my choices. But you know what? If I'm NOT thinking straight, I want the confidence that my wife will help me see that I am not aligned with Christ's will. "Husband...is this REALLY His will for us? Have you really prayed over it and asked the Spirit for guidance?" To me, that's EXACTLY the kind of help I want and I need. Not that she's going to make the decisions FOR me, but help me make the right decisions.

I think we often lose sight of the part where the husband must submit...because, truthfully, the husband must be MORE submissive than the wife. I think Christ's expectations of us are even higher than our spouse's...that means as husbands, we have to work even harder to make sure we're following Him all the way. The responsibility falls on the man to submit to Christ to the point where his wife wouldn't have a reason to be overruled.

Ok at the risk of embarrassing Shour a bit:

Seriously ladies, would it be hard to submit to a man with this kind of attitude? Because the caveat of submission is simply choose a husband that you can trust and admire so thoroughly that submitting to him isn't a hardship.

 

[Rachel20]

Seriously ladies, would it be hard to submit to a man with this kind of attitude? Because the caveat of submission is simply choose a husband that you can trust and admire so thoroughly that submitting to him isn't a hardship.

Thy husband is thy lord, thy life, thy keeper,
Thy head, thy sovereign, one that cares for thee,
And for thy maintenance commits his body
To painful labour both by sea and land,
To watch the night in storms, the day in cold,
Whilst thou liest warm at home, secure and safe,
And craves no other tribute at thy hands
But love, fair looks, and true obedience,
Too little payment for so great a debt.
. . .
My mind hath been as big as one of yours,
My heart as great, my reason haply more,
To bandy word for word and frown for frown;
But now I see our lances are but straws,
Our strength as weak, our weakness past compare,
That seeming to be most which we indeed least are.
Then vail your stomachs, for it is no boot,
And place your hands below your husband’s foot,
In token of which duty, if he please,
My hand is ready, may it do him ease.​


-- William Shakespeare, The Taming Of The Shrew

 

[Fenner]

I have always thought of my marriage as a partnership. We talk to each other and decide on what we think would be best. We plan on getting a dog, I thought we were going to get one a couple of months ago but my Husband didn't want to at thAt point. He thinks we should wait until Summer. I said OK, I wouldn't go buy an Animal without his input because that's a time and money commitment.

Year's ago we where looking at houses to buy. There was this one house, it was old, it needed a lot of work and the neighborhood was sketchy. He loved the house, I was not feeling it. We debated about it, well the deal fell through and we didn't get it. I was happy that we didn't have a chance because that house was a mess and my Husband as great as I think he is, doesn't know anything about fixing homes.

I feel that you should both be on board about the big things in life or it's not going to work.

That's my 2 cents.

 

[zeroturbulence]

I have often heard many Christians, both men and women, claiming that in a family, the final decision is always taken by the husband.

In case there is a disagreement between the husband and the wife, the husband still takes the final decision and hence in a way can overrule his wife…. Or veto a wife.

This stems from the verses that the husband is the head of the wife and so forth.

He is seen as a leader and as responsible for the entire household.

While most people don’t seem to bat an eyelash for this, this whole concept bewilders me.

Actually, I have only heard all this since I joined CC. The people that I interact with, who call themselves Christians find this as alien as I do.

I look to my parents as a model example for a marriage. They have been married for almost 26 years now and they have been through everything together.

They are friends and equals in every way and their relationship is something that I aspire to.

The last thing I would want is my husband taking the full responsibility of every single decision or even overturning my desires for something he wants.

If we were friends, we would take every decision together. If we reached a stalemate, we would create decision tables, look at all other possibilities, solutions or just flip a coin.

Perhaps it is an unpopular opinion but I just can’t swallow the idea of some guy telling me, “ Ok you have told me what you think of it, now I will take the final decision.”

I would not just nag, but throw that guy on the roof.




********************************************


I am being honest and I know many people who bring up the veto concept in forums.

For a while I used to parrot them and in fact there is standard line for talking about submission.

“When in Christ, submission is a beautiful thing”


I too have written such posts on submission and I totally distance myself from that. No matter which angle I look at, it puts women in a pathetic position and in this age and the times that we live in it is absolutely unrealistic.

I used to feel the pressure of wanting to appear godly and how claiming a degree of “grossness” towards submission meant me being seen otherwise.

Good thing I learnt how all such pontifications of submission doesn’t guarantee you being a godly person.

I submit to my parents.

Their head start in terms of knowledge and wisdom and their sheer love and sacrifice for me is reason enough.

Do we at least look at the husband's educational/personal qualifications to guarantee his position of absolute leadership?

Yes the husband is the head of the wife. That's what the Bible says.

Yet the culture was totally different to what we have now... Contexts are so different.

For a proper exegesis of anything the context of what was written in Scripture has to be thoroughly examined.

Whatever it is... Open to discussion.

It's Eve's fault.


" Your desire will be for your husband, and he will rule over you." - Genesis 3:16

 

[seoulsearch]

My parents recently had a major life decision to make together.

My Dad wanted "A" but my Mom wanted "Z". In other words, their choices were worlds apart and on opposite ends of the scale.

The compromised somewhere around a "V"--as in, the decision landed in closer favor to what my Mom had wanted after they weighed all the options and worked out all the pro's and con's.

My Dad is the leader of the household but he's not a dictator. This is why some Christian men will see me as being headstrong and rebellious--because I was raised by a Christian father who always treated the women in the family as equally important members who had just as much say as the men. But of course, if it was an absolute deadlock, we went with what my father decided. He was still the leader of our family. My mother always told me it was a privilege to follow our husbands and that sex is a privilege with your husband as well and not a bargaining chip, as some see it (just thought I'd throw that into the whole "submission" debate.)

My parents must have figured out something that works, seeing as they've been happily married for almost 50 years.

 

[Grace-Like-Rain]

Submission on larger, spiritual things, might actually be easier than submission on smaller everyday things. Fenner mentioned getting a dog. There's really no "right" or "wrong" in that scenario. There's freedom to either get a dog or not get one. It's those situations where I think things get complicated.

But if each partner is putting the OTHER first (before themselves in wants and desires), then what you have is basically a partnership that is mostly equal. Then when things like which house to buy or which dog to adopt come up, you are both going to want to compromise and come to a solution that everyone is okay with.

It definitely requires trust. When you trust someone completely, you aren't going to be worried about whether they will be heavy-handed or fall into a dictator style of leadership. If you aren't at that point yet, you should wait to marry.

 

[p_rehbein]

I'm pretty sure that when Scripture speaks of man being head of the household, it is speaking of Spiritual matters........as Jesus is head of the Church.

But, now, that's just me.

Even in the days of the Apostles, women were quite involved in running the household were they not? Seems I've read some of this in Scripture.............could be wrong I suppose.

(edited to say)

Now, when the man is not a man of God, what then? When the wife is a woman of God, and the husband is an unbeliever, what then? Does he still decide what is spiritually best for the family?

Lots of men out there who are not Godly men............

 

[ServantStrike]

and that sex is a privilege with your husband as well and not a bargaining chip, as some see it (just thought I'd throw that into the whole "submission" debate.)

Sex is like chips?

Sweet mercy... I need to get married like.... in the next 24 hours. Sounds like the ultimate diet. Just substitute sex for chips.

 

[rachelsedge]

I always thought (and correct me if I'm wrong) that submission to the husband was typically only in regards to spiritual matters?

Not that a husband should be a dictator (and I think that is what many men think in regards to the wife submitting), but surely submission doesn't include micromanaging me. "You shouldn't eat that" "You will go to bed earlier". I'm not a child and you are not the parent. I can make my own decisions in that regard.

Or am I just being stubborn. Or confused...

 

[Desdichado]

Attempts at veto override will be met with martial law.

 

[Nick01]

I personally think the idea of headship is pretty crap if it is reducible to a 'veto'. Are we talking about a relationship, or a committee?

 

[Ugly]

This game sounds fun. I want to play. Now... which part of the bible do i not like and can i ignore? hmm...

 

[Desdichado]

This game sounds fun. I want to play. Now... which part of the bible do i not like and can i ignore? hmm...

Apostasy! All the cool kids are doing it.