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I really don't know. My parents have a loving, godly marriage, one I definitely look up to.
That being said, I don't know how I picture it. Maybe it's because I've been single all my life and have been independent and living on my own for quite a while now, but I don't feel that I need to be "led" or "guided" by anyone, be it spiritually or not. Maybe that's pride, maybe it's out of necessity because that is how I must live currently. I don't know if that makes sense. I know what I want certain aspects of the relationship to look like, but when it comes to leadership, I struggle with how that will look as well as my pride ("I don't need no man to make the final decision" type of thing). I want a man to "lead me" or whatever and at the same time I resent it.
Also, I guard myself too much (and yet not enough sometimes), and just picturing being vulnerable enough with a man to trust him and allow him to lead me...is hard. Typing that makes me feel a little broken. :/ Not broken-hearted, just...I dunno.
That being said, I don't know how I picture it. Maybe it's because I've been single all my life and have been independent and living on my own for quite a while now, but I don't feel that I need to be "led" or "guided" by anyone, be it spiritually or not. Maybe that's pride, maybe it's out of necessity because that is how I must live currently. I don't know if that makes sense. I know what I want certain aspects of the relationship to look like, but when it comes to leadership, I struggle with how that will look as well as my pride ("I don't need no man to make the final decision" type of thing). I want a man to "lead me" or whatever and at the same time I resent it.
Also, I guard myself too much (and yet not enough sometimes), and just picturing being vulnerable enough with a man to trust him and allow him to lead me...is hard. Typing that makes me feel a little broken. :/ Not broken-hearted, just...I dunno.
I think at a general level, male headship involves sacrificial love and service. God made men with bodies that they can wear out working. So working hard to provide for your family, working hard to pursue the hearts of your kids and wife, working hard to avoid entangling sin.
It involves praying for and with his wife, praying for and with his kids, and modeling the gospel and reminding them of its truths. So when he sins against his wife or his kids, modeling the gospel by confessing that to them, apologizing, and asking them for forgiveness. It means putting his wife and her needs first. Knowing her strengths and building her up in them, and knowing how she feels most loved and served and doing those things for her.
It means being a one-woman man and making his wife his standard of beauty.
It means laying himself down for his wife, and training his kids in righteousness.
These things can look a little different depending on the couple, so that's just a general idea of the kind of husband and father I hope to be.
These videos explain and describe well what I'm saying, and a lot of my idea of what a good husband and father should be comes from listening to Matt Chandler's sermons (hence my username). Apparently you can only post one video per post, so please don't hate me, but I'm going to post a few as I feel that they are helpful and pertinent.
[video=youtube;sh5dWRMCu6A]https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=sh5dWRMCu6A&index=20&list=PLbE-di2T5VIXwr50BDzN99IHUxUb5vorY[/video]
It involves praying for and with his wife, praying for and with his kids, and modeling the gospel and reminding them of its truths. So when he sins against his wife or his kids, modeling the gospel by confessing that to them, apologizing, and asking them for forgiveness. It means putting his wife and her needs first. Knowing her strengths and building her up in them, and knowing how she feels most loved and served and doing those things for her.
It means being a one-woman man and making his wife his standard of beauty.
It means laying himself down for his wife, and training his kids in righteousness.
These things can look a little different depending on the couple, so that's just a general idea of the kind of husband and father I hope to be.
These videos explain and describe well what I'm saying, and a lot of my idea of what a good husband and father should be comes from listening to Matt Chandler's sermons (hence my username). Apparently you can only post one video per post, so please don't hate me, but I'm going to post a few as I feel that they are helpful and pertinent.
[video=youtube;sh5dWRMCu6A]https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=sh5dWRMCu6A&index=20&list=PLbE-di2T5VIXwr50BDzN99IHUxUb5vorY[/video]
[video=youtube;ffBG7JAvBiw]http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=ffBG7JAvBiw[/video]
We talk about female submission alllllllllllllllllllllllllllllllllllllllllllllllllll the time
, but what should male leadership look like to a woman who is considering him for a husband? Trying to determine whether or not she CAN submit, respect, etc. if and when she becomes his wife? I don't think I've ever seen a thread about this in the forum - only threads about how we ladies are suppose to submit. DON'T MISUNDERSTAND PLEASE! I just thought it would be nice to talk about the other side of the coin for once.
My stepdad was not a godly man until almost the end of his life; however, he WAS a military man, so he did know a lil sumpfin about leadership. He and my mom raised a bunch of children as well. Both of them always said that the best way to lead was by EXAMPLE. The "Do as I say, not as I do" method won't cut it. I found this to be highly effect and true in raising my son, so I've always viewed being "led" by a spouse in the same way...but that's just me.
So...
MEN: What does it look like from a male perspective?
LADIES: What does it look like from your perspective?
What does scripture say it looks like from God's perspective?
Please try to play nice and stay on topic. Thank you!
We talk about female submission alllllllllllllllllllllllllllllllllllllllllllllllllll the time
, but what should male leadership look like to a woman who is considering him for a husband? Trying to determine whether or not she CAN submit, respect, etc. if and when she becomes his wife? I don't think I've ever seen a thread about this in the forum - only threads about how we ladies are suppose to submit. DON'T MISUNDERSTAND PLEASE! I just thought it would be nice to talk about the other side of the coin for once. My stepdad was not a godly man until almost the end of his life; however, he WAS a military man, so he did know a lil sumpfin about leadership. He and my mom raised a bunch of children as well. Both of them always said that the best way to lead was by EXAMPLE. The "Do as I say, not as I do" method won't cut it. I found this to be highly effect and true in raising my son, so I've always viewed being "led" by a spouse in the same way...but that's just me.
So...
MEN: What does it look like from a male perspective?
LADIES: What does it look like from your perspective?
What does scripture say it looks like from God's perspective?
Please try to play nice and stay on topic. Thank you!
You're really missing the point.
If a woman is properly submissive, it DOESN'T MATTER what male leadership looks like...
because she'll be submissive to it regardless !!!!
Everything went straight to heck back when we first let women vote and own property.
Straight to heck.
: )
I guess I should elaborate.
I told him what I said in my previous post, and he said its likely because I am not in a relationship so I do not feel the need/desire to be led by a man. Once I am in that relationship with a godly man, my heart will feel that tugging of wanting to work together and also be led. But right now, I don't because I have to picture someone I don't know, in which case my heart is like "Uh, no." Which makes sense, really.
I asked him other questions related to this (as I always do) but just thought I'd follow up on this main point per previous post.
My father is a wise man. I love him a lot.
I told him what I said in my previous post, and he said its likely because I am not in a relationship so I do not feel the need/desire to be led by a man. Once I am in that relationship with a godly man, my heart will feel that tugging of wanting to work together and also be led. But right now, I don't because I have to picture someone I don't know, in which case my heart is like "Uh, no." Which makes sense, really.
I asked him other questions related to this (as I always do) but just thought I'd follow up on this main point per previous post.
My father is a wise man. I love him a lot.
Let's see my criteria of what would make a man a good leader (and someone I'd be willing to submit to and let handle things rather than always making sure he got things done and did it right etc.):
First and foremost he's a man of courage and conviction. He has principles and he sticks to them. He won't wimp out of a discussion or argument when I tell him I disagree, but he won't just immediately say I'm the boss and I say so either and expect me to give in. With others he stands up for what he believes in and isn't swayed by sugar coated words or emotional language.
He's decisive and a man of action. Once he makes a decision he doesn't spend time debating whether that was the right decision or not. When he knows something needs to be done he follows through and does it. Even the hard and uncomfortable things. If he tells me he needs to do something sometime, that should be a guarantee that he's going to do it. And if things are weird between us, I'd love it if he would be the one to broach the subject and say can we talk about this.
He's honest and full of integrity. He knows what it means to speak the truth in love, but he doesn't shy away from speaking the hard truths when he's convinced they need to be spoken. He has also long since determined to be a Godly man regardless of the consequences or his circumstances. He owns up to his struggles and temptations before they turn into sins, does what he needs to do to grow in holiness, and constantly encourages and invites his family to do the same.
Well that's a good start on a description at least, probably needs the caveat that I have impossibly high standards for myself and any potential mate (which may in part explain why I'm in the singles area).
First and foremost he's a man of courage and conviction. He has principles and he sticks to them. He won't wimp out of a discussion or argument when I tell him I disagree, but he won't just immediately say I'm the boss and I say so either and expect me to give in. With others he stands up for what he believes in and isn't swayed by sugar coated words or emotional language.
He's decisive and a man of action. Once he makes a decision he doesn't spend time debating whether that was the right decision or not. When he knows something needs to be done he follows through and does it. Even the hard and uncomfortable things. If he tells me he needs to do something sometime, that should be a guarantee that he's going to do it. And if things are weird between us, I'd love it if he would be the one to broach the subject and say can we talk about this.
He's honest and full of integrity. He knows what it means to speak the truth in love, but he doesn't shy away from speaking the hard truths when he's convinced they need to be spoken. He has also long since determined to be a Godly man regardless of the consequences or his circumstances. He owns up to his struggles and temptations before they turn into sins, does what he needs to do to grow in holiness, and constantly encourages and invites his family to do the same.
Well that's a good start on a description at least, probably needs the caveat that I have impossibly high standards for myself and any potential mate (which may in part explain why I'm in the singles area).
I've had a lot of alone time 35 years of it. Making decisions on my own good and bad ones I might add.. Tourist is the first man I have ever wanted to submit to.. Why?
Because he is a man who puts God first, a kind and gentle man who knows how to love even when that love is put to the test and is most worthy of my respect. He is a leader that I am most willing to follow because of his relationship with God. He has been through some rough trials and took care of a sick wife for years and has been proven to be that leading husband. He has been knocked down a few times and still stands strong. Been through some sad times with his wife passing away this past spring and instead of blaming God he still leans on God for his strength. Yes these and more are good qualities of leadership that I am most willing to follow.
By the way I have never submitted to a man before even when I was married so young I never properly showed respect as I didn't know how love or submit to God much less a man. My 35 year time out was needed for me to learn lessons which probably makes me a slow learner, but I have learned that I need to show the right kind of love and respect and that I need to submit first to God and then to my husband. When love 1 Corinthians chapter 13 is in the relationship - understood and given it makes it easier to submit.
Because he is a man who puts God first, a kind and gentle man who knows how to love even when that love is put to the test and is most worthy of my respect. He is a leader that I am most willing to follow because of his relationship with God. He has been through some rough trials and took care of a sick wife for years and has been proven to be that leading husband. He has been knocked down a few times and still stands strong. Been through some sad times with his wife passing away this past spring and instead of blaming God he still leans on God for his strength. Yes these and more are good qualities of leadership that I am most willing to follow.
By the way I have never submitted to a man before even when I was married so young I never properly showed respect as I didn't know how love or submit to God much less a man. My 35 year time out was needed for me to learn lessons which probably makes me a slow learner, but I have learned that I need to show the right kind of love and respect and that I need to submit first to God and then to my husband. When love 1 Corinthians chapter 13 is in the relationship - understood and given it makes it easier to submit.
K
This could be a topic by itself. I think abuse is an ATTEMPT to achieve respect. No where is fear properly equated to respect, however, the end product of fear - that of deference - is a component of respect. The wife of the abuser might not hold her husband in high esteem, but she more than defers to his leadership and I think that actually satisfies the abusive husband's need for respect. So, you're right in that if respect equals love in the man's eyes, then that man might very well love his abused wife, even though his feelings are poorly defined. In that same way, love equaling respect for the abused woman, she might feel respect for her husband and deference through fear and misjudge that fear for love. I think that's actually why these seemingly crazy relationship keep cycling, nearly always having some kind of tragic consequence. Kinda interesting.
Well if he's made a good start on them I'd probably give the guy a chance. Besides these are general characteristics, not a he never ever screws up at them kind of thing. And you did see the disclaimer about my chronic impossibly high standards, right? The main redeeming quality I have in that area is that I usually hold myself to higher standards than I hold anyone else to.
H
I have such a hard time understanding this whole concept. I'm an adult, why can't i make my own decisions? Why do i need to have someone ''lead me'' What powers is it a man has that makes him capable of leading his wife or family better than i could lead myself??
With that being said, I'd rather not be led. However, i know that's God's design for a family. I'm naturally rebellious towards any type of authority, so i don't want to be told ''this is what you're/we're doing'' cause it's gonna get ugly really fast. I want to be asked and at least considered when he's making any type of decision.
And honestly, i'm not even sure i'll ever get married for this reason alone. That's just where i'm at right now.
With that being said, I'd rather not be led. However, i know that's God's design for a family. I'm naturally rebellious towards any type of authority, so i don't want to be told ''this is what you're/we're doing'' cause it's gonna get ugly really fast. I want to be asked and at least considered when he's making any type of decision.
And honestly, i'm not even sure i'll ever get married for this reason alone. That's just where i'm at right now.
I think that might be the biggest misconception that exists regarding male headship. You should check out the first video I posted earlier, Holly. Headship isn't about making all the decisions with no input from the wife. In a healthy marriage, decisions are made together. Headship is about a man tirelessly caring for and nurturing his wife and children toward flourishing in their faith and in their strengths. It's not about control, it's actually about the man working for and laying his life down for his family.
I don't know that I can find a clip of it, but there's another point where Chandler says that a man knows that he is fulfilling his role well if the world's most hardcore feminist walked into the home of him and his wife and sit down with his wife and tried to convince her to step away from this "oppressive" environment of male headship, and his wife would say, "Why? He prays for me, he prays for our children, he serves and loves me well, he tirelessly works to provide for us and help me out at home when he's here, he encourages me in my gifts and dreams. Why would I ever want to leave that?"
I guess what I would add too is that if you believe that God is for our joy, and His design for the man and the woman is that the man would serve as the head and the woman would serve as the helper, and your only picture of marriage according to that design is a marriage filled with domination, fear, and oppression, then that's not joy-filled or God-honoring at all, and perhaps your understanding of what the Bible means by its model of marriage and gender roles is a little bit off.
But I would also add that there have been many men in the past who have created a reason for that fear, and I hate that so much. Those men will face God for what they did someday. Any marriage where the woman feels oppressed and dominated is a heartbreaking one.
I guess what I would add too is that if you believe that God is for our joy, and His design for the man and the woman is that the man would serve as the head and the woman would serve as the helper, and your only picture of marriage according to that design is a marriage filled with domination, fear, and oppression, then that's not joy-filled or God-honoring at all, and perhaps your understanding of what the Bible means by its model of marriage and gender roles is a little bit off.
But I would also add that there have been many men in the past who have created a reason for that fear, and I hate that so much. Those men will face God for what they did someday. Any marriage where the woman feels oppressed and dominated is a heartbreaking one.
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