Where are all the real Christian men??
- Thread starter JesusFreak1992
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J
Don't you think a "real Christian man" has discernment? You're literally pretending to be the protector of all those innocent "good Christian men" who lack discernment! I have to say it's an oxymoron your defending your actions with.
Your defending your lack mature Christian guidance for the OP, but let's face it your lack here is because of your own past so your very quick to judge.
if we want our Christian brothers and sisters in the faith to overcome the world and the flesh, we have to guide them as we are guided.
but I digress, since it's not those "good Christian men" who need your protection because they can discern whether a woman would make a Godly wife or not.
So let's assume, for the sake of argument, that she does lack a saving faith (I'm only arguing the point, not accusing). So it's her to be most likely to be deceived by a false expression of a "good Christian man" - since it would be her own lack of discernment in what a good Christian man even looks and acts like.
Hint: The true Christian doesn't live the way he doesn't want to, the true Christian is the one who has his 'want to' changed.
And then - since we are still arguing your judgement here - if she's the most likely to be deceived by falsehoods, isn't she the one most in need of quality guidance? Since she's not yet met any takers and all that.
And if her salvation is in question, shouldn't we choose a time when she asks other theological questions to address any confusion, where she may be more open to taking in quality answers? I mean, she's here, she makes threads and asks questions...
There's nothing like confrontation to shut someone down and make them dig in their heels unless they just like confrontation - and the majority of western women don't like confrontation.
We used to get auto parts from a junkyard to keep our vehicles running. And the owner there was a haggler from way back. I loved it.m I could always get the best price because I'm a haggler too, and better than most. No one went to the junkyard without me.
I love to argue, haggle, debate.. I always have but it's an extremely rare trait for American or western women in general to have. I prefer learning via debate, if my thinking doesn't hold water I want to know, and debating ideas is the best way to find out what flaws exist in my thought processes.
But again, that's more rare even than a woman who likes to haggle. So it's not the best way to reach a person, especially when reaching them for Christ.
now back to the OP.
PS, if that last was some kind of a dig about my faith then please feel free to open a thread..
Your defending your lack mature Christian guidance for the OP, but let's face it your lack here is because of your own past so your very quick to judge.
if we want our Christian brothers and sisters in the faith to overcome the world and the flesh, we have to guide them as we are guided.
but I digress, since it's not those "good Christian men" who need your protection because they can discern whether a woman would make a Godly wife or not.
So let's assume, for the sake of argument, that she does lack a saving faith (I'm only arguing the point, not accusing). So it's her to be most likely to be deceived by a false expression of a "good Christian man" - since it would be her own lack of discernment in what a good Christian man even looks and acts like.
Hint: The true Christian doesn't live the way he doesn't want to, the true Christian is the one who has his 'want to' changed.
And then - since we are still arguing your judgement here - if she's the most likely to be deceived by falsehoods, isn't she the one most in need of quality guidance? Since she's not yet met any takers and all that.
And if her salvation is in question, shouldn't we choose a time when she asks other theological questions to address any confusion, where she may be more open to taking in quality answers? I mean, she's here, she makes threads and asks questions...
There's nothing like confrontation to shut someone down and make them dig in their heels unless they just like confrontation - and the majority of western women don't like confrontation.
We used to get auto parts from a junkyard to keep our vehicles running. And the owner there was a haggler from way back. I loved it.m I could always get the best price because I'm a haggler too, and better than most. No one went to the junkyard without me.
I love to argue, haggle, debate.. I always have but it's an extremely rare trait for American or western women in general to have. I prefer learning via debate, if my thinking doesn't hold water I want to know, and debating ideas is the best way to find out what flaws exist in my thought processes.
But again, that's more rare even than a woman who likes to haggle. So it's not the best way to reach a person, especially when reaching them for Christ.
now back to the OP.
PS, if that last was some kind of a dig about my faith then please feel free to open a thread..
C
Sorry, you've just convinced me you are of the same spirit as the one I fear the OP is listening to and guided by. There's no benefit to you, me, and most of all to the OP, for you or her to continue any conversation with me. I don't count your counsel worthwhile here. But quite frankly, I wouldn't have a need of your counsel, anytime, on anything. I have Someone far better as my Counsellor, and I am soooo grateful for that!
So you see class, this is how people keep thinking they are right. They get good at figuring out why everybody who disagrees with them is wrong.
Once you master the art of being dismissive, it gets MUCH easier to keep believing you are right in the face of disagreement.
For Pharisees it's even easier, because you can just proclaim all who disagree with you are not REAL Christians and are carnal instead of spiritual.
Once you master the art of being dismissive, it gets MUCH easier to keep believing you are right in the face of disagreement.
For Pharisees it's even easier, because you can just proclaim all who disagree with you are not REAL Christians and are carnal instead of spiritual.
So you see class, this is how people keep thinking they are right. They get good at figuring out why everybody who disagrees with them is wrong.
Once you master the art of being dismissive, it gets MUCH easier to keep believing you are right in the face of disagreement.
For Pharisees it's even easier, because you can just proclaim all who disagree with you are not REAL Christians and are carnal instead of spiritual.
Once you master the art of being dismissive, it gets MUCH easier to keep believing you are right in the face of disagreement.
For Pharisees it's even easier, because you can just proclaim all who disagree with you are not REAL Christians and are carnal instead of spiritual.
If he's a good Christian man he'll come around once he's done being mad he had no answer.
Otherwise, I've no issues with the cross...
After all, my Lord and Savior hung on one.
L
Hi, JesusFreak1992.
Let me begin by saying that, with God as my Witness, I have absolutely no desire whatsoever to judge or condemn you, so please don't read anything that I'm about to say with that mindset. Instead, I'm simply hoping to give you some things to ponder in the light of God's word without offering any final judgment of my own.
For starters, God ordained marriage to be a natural reflection of the spiritual union between Christ and his church:
Ephesians chapter 5
[22] Wives, submit yourselves unto your own husbands, as unto the Lord.
[23] For the husband is the head of the wife, even as Christ is the head of the church: and he is the saviour of the body.
[24] Therefore as the church is subject unto Christ, so let the wives be to their own husbands in every thing.
[25] Husbands, love your wives, even as Christ also loved the church, and gave himself for it;
[26] That he might sanctify and cleanse it with the washing of water by the word,
[27] That he might present it to himself a glorious church, not having spot, or wrinkle, or any such thing; but that it should be holy and without blemish.
[28] So ought men to love their wives as their own bodies. He that loveth his wife loveth himself.
[29] For no man ever yet hated his own flesh; but nourisheth and cherisheth it, even as the Lord the church:
[30] For we are members of his body, of his flesh, and of his bones.
[31] For this cause shall a man leave his father and mother, and shall be joined unto his wife, and they two shall be one flesh.
[32] This is a great mystery: but I speak concerning Christ and the church.
[33] Nevertheless let every one of you in particular so love his wife even as himself; and the wife see that she reverence her husband.
With such being the case, a husband, who is representative of Christ within a marriage, should NEVER abuse his wife, but rather love her even as Christ loved the church or in the same type of self-sacrificial way that Christ gave himself for the church (vs. 25). This would include him loving his wife as his own body (vs. 28) while nourishing her and cherishing her as his own flesh (vs. 29) or as himself (vs. 33). This would also include him washing her with the water of God's word (vs. 26) or seeking to sanctify her or set her apart unto the Lord by admonishing her through the scriptures.
I don't know about you, but I don't see any commands for a husband to abuse his wife in any of that.
In fact, God hates abuse, and especially if it gets to the physical type (although mental/emotional abuse can be just as bad at times):
Malachi chapter 2
[13] And this have ye done again, covering the altar of the LORD with tears, with weeping, and with crying out, insomuch that he regardeth not the offering any more, or receiveth it with good will at your hand.
[14] Yet ye say, Wherefore? Because the LORD hath been witness between thee and the wife of thy youth, against whom thou hast dealt treacherously: yet is she thy companion, and the wife of thy covenant.
[15] And did not he make one? Yet had he the residue of the spirit. And wherefore one? That he might seek a godly seed. Therefore take heed to your spirit, and let none deal treacherously against the wife of his youth.
[16] For the LORD, the God of Israel, saith that he hateth putting away: for one covereth violence with his garment, saith the LORD of hosts: therefore take heed to your spirit, that ye deal not treacherously.
[17] Ye have wearied the LORD with your words. Yet ye say, Wherein have we wearied him? When ye say, Every one that doeth evil is good in the sight of the LORD, and he delighteth in them; or, Where is the God of judgment?
God is DEFINITELY AGAINST those who deal treacherously against their wives (vss. 14-16), and this includes those who cover violence with their garment (vs. 16) or those who we might rightly say cloak their abuse under a garment of religious hypocrisy.
I trust that you (and others here) would shout a hearty "AMEN!" to this, but this isn't necessarily the end of the story.
In other words, although God truly hates this type of treachery, he has given us examples in scripture of how to properly deal with or respond to the same.
Here is one of them, and it is the word of God:
I Peter chapter 2
[18] Servants, be subject to your masters with all fear; not only to the good and gentle, but also to the froward.
[19] For this is thankworthy, if a man for conscience toward God endure grief, suffering wrongfully.
[20] For what glory is it, if, when ye be buffeted for your faults, ye shall take it patiently? but if, when ye do well, and suffer for it, ye take it patiently, this is acceptable with God.
[21] For even hereunto were ye called: because Christ also suffered for us, leaving us an example, that ye should follow his steps:
[22] Who did no sin, neither was guile found in his mouth:
[23] Who, when he was reviled, reviled not again; when he suffered, he threatened not; but committed himself to him that judgeth righteously:
[24] Who his own self bare our sins in his own body on the tree, that we, being dead to sins, should live unto righteousness: by whose stripes ye were healed.
[25] For ye were as sheep going astray; but are now returned unto the Shepherd and Bishop of your souls.
I Peter chapter 3
[1] Likewise, ye wives, be in subjection to your own husbands; that, if any obey not the word, they also may without the word be won by the conversation of the wives;
[2] While they behold your chaste conversation coupled with fear.
[3] Whose adorning let it not be that outward adorning of plaiting the hair, and of wearing of gold, or of putting on of apparel;
[4] But let it be the hidden man of the heart, in that which is not corruptible, even the ornament of a meek and quiet spirit, which is in the sight of God of great price.
[5] For after this manner in the old time the holy women also, who trusted in God, adorned themselves, being in subjection unto their own husbands:
[6] Even as Sara obeyed Abraham, calling him lord: whose daughters ye are, as long as ye do well, and are not afraid with any amazement.
[7] Likewise, ye husbands, dwell with them according to knowledge, giving honour unto the wife, as unto the weaker vessel, and as being heirs together of the grace of life; that your prayers be not hindered.
The key word here is "likewise" (I Peter 3:1).
In other words, Peter had just finished talking about servants who were suffering wrongfully while enduring such grief out of a conscience towards God and about how we, as Christians, have actually been called to the same while citing Christ as our example.
IN THIS CONTEXT, Peter used the word "likewise" in relation to how wives ought to respond to husbands who "obey not the word" (I Peter 1:1).
And what is that response?
Well, it's to try to seek to win their husbands "without the word" (I Peter 3:1), or without preaching to them verbally, but rather with their "chaste conversation coupled with fear" (I Peter 3:2). This word "conversation" is an Old English word which means "behavior" or "lifestyle". In other words, walk as someone who is set apart "as a chaste virgin to Christ" (II Corinthians 11:2) while walking in the fear of the Lord. Yes, it is "the ornament of a meek and quiet spirit, which is in the sight of God of great price" (I Peter 3:4) which might eventually change such a husband's heart.
That's the blueprint, BUT there are other factors to consider.
In the case of physical abuse, especially in situations where one's life might literally be in jeopardy, it's probably wise to separate one's self from that potentially deadly situation for at least a time (while contacting the police if he won't hear you or the church and repent).
Anyhow, like I said, I'm not going to offer my own final judgment here, but I will say that simply suffering wrongfully doesn't seem to me to be a just cause for divorce and remarriage.
Also, just in case you might wrongfully think that I'm not sympathetic to your situation, I endured an almost 17 year marriage where my ex was totally out to destroy me, so I know a thing or two about abuse.
For example (she did worse things than this), she slandered me repeatedly to everyone imaginable...
The police (more than once), a judge (she sought to take my children away from me, and I had to defend myself against totally false charges in court, and I won by a landslide), pastors (plural), whole congregations of churchgoers (plural), family members on her side, family members on my side, our children's guidance counselors and teachers, neighbors, friends, my customers at work (I was self-employed in a retail business at that time) etc., etc. etc.
Basically, everywhere that I went, people thought that I was a pile of, and this went on FOR YEARS, AND YEARS, AND YEARS.
In fact, she literally sent emails to Oprah Winfrey and to Daymond John and Barbara Corcoran from "The Shark Tank" (I actually have copies of them) as well in which she slandered me greatly while seeking money from them as an alleged "battered wife" (NOTHING could be further from the truth).
In my particular case, my liberation came after she renounced Christ/Christianity (she actually walked with the Lord initially), cheated on me repeatedly (with guys she found on various "Sugar Daddy" websites), and then divorced me.
Anyhow, some things for you to hopefully ponder in the light of God's word.
Let me begin by saying that, with God as my Witness, I have absolutely no desire whatsoever to judge or condemn you, so please don't read anything that I'm about to say with that mindset. Instead, I'm simply hoping to give you some things to ponder in the light of God's word without offering any final judgment of my own.
For starters, God ordained marriage to be a natural reflection of the spiritual union between Christ and his church:
Ephesians chapter 5
[22] Wives, submit yourselves unto your own husbands, as unto the Lord.
[23] For the husband is the head of the wife, even as Christ is the head of the church: and he is the saviour of the body.
[24] Therefore as the church is subject unto Christ, so let the wives be to their own husbands in every thing.
[25] Husbands, love your wives, even as Christ also loved the church, and gave himself for it;
[26] That he might sanctify and cleanse it with the washing of water by the word,
[27] That he might present it to himself a glorious church, not having spot, or wrinkle, or any such thing; but that it should be holy and without blemish.
[28] So ought men to love their wives as their own bodies. He that loveth his wife loveth himself.
[29] For no man ever yet hated his own flesh; but nourisheth and cherisheth it, even as the Lord the church:
[30] For we are members of his body, of his flesh, and of his bones.
[31] For this cause shall a man leave his father and mother, and shall be joined unto his wife, and they two shall be one flesh.
[32] This is a great mystery: but I speak concerning Christ and the church.
[33] Nevertheless let every one of you in particular so love his wife even as himself; and the wife see that she reverence her husband.
With such being the case, a husband, who is representative of Christ within a marriage, should NEVER abuse his wife, but rather love her even as Christ loved the church or in the same type of self-sacrificial way that Christ gave himself for the church (vs. 25). This would include him loving his wife as his own body (vs. 28) while nourishing her and cherishing her as his own flesh (vs. 29) or as himself (vs. 33). This would also include him washing her with the water of God's word (vs. 26) or seeking to sanctify her or set her apart unto the Lord by admonishing her through the scriptures.
I don't know about you, but I don't see any commands for a husband to abuse his wife in any of that.
In fact, God hates abuse, and especially if it gets to the physical type (although mental/emotional abuse can be just as bad at times):
Malachi chapter 2
[13] And this have ye done again, covering the altar of the LORD with tears, with weeping, and with crying out, insomuch that he regardeth not the offering any more, or receiveth it with good will at your hand.
[14] Yet ye say, Wherefore? Because the LORD hath been witness between thee and the wife of thy youth, against whom thou hast dealt treacherously: yet is she thy companion, and the wife of thy covenant.
[15] And did not he make one? Yet had he the residue of the spirit. And wherefore one? That he might seek a godly seed. Therefore take heed to your spirit, and let none deal treacherously against the wife of his youth.
[16] For the LORD, the God of Israel, saith that he hateth putting away: for one covereth violence with his garment, saith the LORD of hosts: therefore take heed to your spirit, that ye deal not treacherously.
[17] Ye have wearied the LORD with your words. Yet ye say, Wherein have we wearied him? When ye say, Every one that doeth evil is good in the sight of the LORD, and he delighteth in them; or, Where is the God of judgment?
God is DEFINITELY AGAINST those who deal treacherously against their wives (vss. 14-16), and this includes those who cover violence with their garment (vs. 16) or those who we might rightly say cloak their abuse under a garment of religious hypocrisy.
I trust that you (and others here) would shout a hearty "AMEN!" to this, but this isn't necessarily the end of the story.
In other words, although God truly hates this type of treachery, he has given us examples in scripture of how to properly deal with or respond to the same.
Here is one of them, and it is the word of God:
I Peter chapter 2
[18] Servants, be subject to your masters with all fear; not only to the good and gentle, but also to the froward.
[19] For this is thankworthy, if a man for conscience toward God endure grief, suffering wrongfully.
[20] For what glory is it, if, when ye be buffeted for your faults, ye shall take it patiently? but if, when ye do well, and suffer for it, ye take it patiently, this is acceptable with God.
[21] For even hereunto were ye called: because Christ also suffered for us, leaving us an example, that ye should follow his steps:
[22] Who did no sin, neither was guile found in his mouth:
[23] Who, when he was reviled, reviled not again; when he suffered, he threatened not; but committed himself to him that judgeth righteously:
[24] Who his own self bare our sins in his own body on the tree, that we, being dead to sins, should live unto righteousness: by whose stripes ye were healed.
[25] For ye were as sheep going astray; but are now returned unto the Shepherd and Bishop of your souls.
I Peter chapter 3
[1] Likewise, ye wives, be in subjection to your own husbands; that, if any obey not the word, they also may without the word be won by the conversation of the wives;
[2] While they behold your chaste conversation coupled with fear.
[3] Whose adorning let it not be that outward adorning of plaiting the hair, and of wearing of gold, or of putting on of apparel;
[4] But let it be the hidden man of the heart, in that which is not corruptible, even the ornament of a meek and quiet spirit, which is in the sight of God of great price.
[5] For after this manner in the old time the holy women also, who trusted in God, adorned themselves, being in subjection unto their own husbands:
[6] Even as Sara obeyed Abraham, calling him lord: whose daughters ye are, as long as ye do well, and are not afraid with any amazement.
[7] Likewise, ye husbands, dwell with them according to knowledge, giving honour unto the wife, as unto the weaker vessel, and as being heirs together of the grace of life; that your prayers be not hindered.
The key word here is "likewise" (I Peter 3:1).
In other words, Peter had just finished talking about servants who were suffering wrongfully while enduring such grief out of a conscience towards God and about how we, as Christians, have actually been called to the same while citing Christ as our example.
IN THIS CONTEXT, Peter used the word "likewise" in relation to how wives ought to respond to husbands who "obey not the word" (I Peter 1:1).
And what is that response?
Well, it's to try to seek to win their husbands "without the word" (I Peter 3:1), or without preaching to them verbally, but rather with their "chaste conversation coupled with fear" (I Peter 3:2). This word "conversation" is an Old English word which means "behavior" or "lifestyle". In other words, walk as someone who is set apart "as a chaste virgin to Christ" (II Corinthians 11:2) while walking in the fear of the Lord. Yes, it is "the ornament of a meek and quiet spirit, which is in the sight of God of great price" (I Peter 3:4) which might eventually change such a husband's heart.
That's the blueprint, BUT there are other factors to consider.
In the case of physical abuse, especially in situations where one's life might literally be in jeopardy, it's probably wise to separate one's self from that potentially deadly situation for at least a time (while contacting the police if he won't hear you or the church and repent).
Anyhow, like I said, I'm not going to offer my own final judgment here, but I will say that simply suffering wrongfully doesn't seem to me to be a just cause for divorce and remarriage.
Also, just in case you might wrongfully think that I'm not sympathetic to your situation, I endured an almost 17 year marriage where my ex was totally out to destroy me, so I know a thing or two about abuse.
For example (she did worse things than this), she slandered me repeatedly to everyone imaginable...
The police (more than once), a judge (she sought to take my children away from me, and I had to defend myself against totally false charges in court, and I won by a landslide), pastors (plural), whole congregations of churchgoers (plural), family members on her side, family members on my side, our children's guidance counselors and teachers, neighbors, friends, my customers at work (I was self-employed in a retail business at that time) etc., etc. etc.
Basically, everywhere that I went, people thought that I was a pile of
, and this went on FOR YEARS, AND YEARS, AND YEARS.In fact, she literally sent emails to Oprah Winfrey and to Daymond John and Barbara Corcoran from "The Shark Tank" (I actually have copies of them) as well in which she slandered me greatly while seeking money from them as an alleged "battered wife" (NOTHING could be further from the truth).
In my particular case, my liberation came after she renounced Christ/Christianity (she actually walked with the Lord initially), cheated on me repeatedly (with guys she found on various "Sugar Daddy" websites), and then divorced me.
Anyhow, some things for you to hopefully ponder in the light of God's word.
