Life on other planets

  • Christian Chat is a moderated online Christian community allowing Christians around the world to fellowship with each other in real time chat via webcam, voice, and text, with the Christian Chat app. You can also start or participate in a Bible-based discussion here in the Christian Chat Forums, where members can also share with each other their own videos, pictures, or favorite Christian music.

    If you are a Christian and need encouragement and fellowship, we're here for you! If you are not a Christian but interested in knowing more about Jesus our Lord, you're also welcome! Want to know what the Bible says, and how you can apply it to your life? Join us!

    To make new Christian friends now around the world, click here to join Christian Chat.
D

didymos

Guest
#81
Did you know that time slows in the presence of a large mass. So as you travel past a mass such as a black hole, time slows down or theoretically stops as the mass approaches infinity.... isn't this space stuff just amazing ������


................
 
Apr 10, 2015
56
0
0
#82
Yes... Mathematical models do try to convey unfathomable concepts. Attempting to understand life to its very origin and essence, and especially time, through secular understanding, will ultimately destroy your faith. Science that attempts to analyze and rationalize the essence of the universe and life, like time, cannot coalesce with Christianity. Whether or not you are aware of its affect on your beliefs, it does not change the outcome. Don't get me wrong, you can certainly be a Christian and in to this sort of science; however, it will be much harder.
 
Apr 8, 2015
895
18
0
#83
Yes... Mathematical models do try to convey unfathomable concepts. Attempting to understand life to its very origin and essence, and especially time, through secular understanding, will ultimately destroy your faith. Science that attempts to analyze and rationalize the essence of the universe and life, like time, cannot coalesce with Christianity. Whether or not you are aware of its affect on your beliefs, it does not change the outcome. Don't get me wrong, you can certainly be a Christian and in to this sort of science; however, it will be much harder.
I totally disagree. Time space mathematics is not some esoteric theory but concrete physics law like Newtons laws. Im not sure why you are frightened of physics. I know others who have said similar things. In the middle ages Galileo told the christian community that the sun and stars did NOT rotate around the earth. He was shunned n hounded for saying blasphemy. Please keep that in mind and accept that the science u just criticised (concerning space time) allows satellites to give you accurate information. I promise for my part to keep sight of GOD
 

Anneliese

Senior Member
May 6, 2015
303
1
0
#84
God created mathematics. It is simply everywhere around us. It's simply beautiful!

Everything in the universe God already knows.

We are merely use mathematics, physics.. etc.. to observe, understand, apply and hopefully appreciate God's masterpiece.

God created time and space. He created our "time", relative to us, when our first heart beats pulsated, till our last breath.

Here are some Christians who used mathematics to appreciate the intricate detail of God's majesty:

Christian Mathematicians :

- Milner
- Cundy
- Martyn
- Stokes
- Salmon
- Venn
- Riemann
- Cauchy
- Babbage
- Hamilton
- Bayes
- Nightingale
- Pascal
- Leibniz
- Euler

Now I'm not agree or disagree anyone here. I'm just saying...

If you read about their lives and how God impacted their lives, you will see how we use a lot of their discovery in mathematics and how it has impacted in our every day lives from our computers (Babbage) to understanding wave patterns (Stokes).
 
Apr 10, 2015
56
0
0
#85
I totally disagree. Time space mathematics is not some esoteric theory but concrete physics law like Newtons laws. Im not sure why you are frightened of physics. I know others who have said similar things. In the middle ages Galileo told the christian community that the sun and stars did NOT rotate around the earth. He was shunned n hounded for saying blasphemy. Please keep that in mind and accept that the science u just criticised (concerning space time) allows satellites to give you accurate information. I promise for my part to keep sight of GOD
Defining what time is in a black hole is nothing like Classical Mechanics. Mathematical models indicate no empirical data, rather just the best consensus among scientists, which of course is a speculation among such theories of time. You'll find that many of these theories are constantly being disregarded as more knowledge of the topic increases. This is a good indicator that one must be skeptical at all times; because when these theories are standing solely upon the scientists' opinions, and not graspable data (therefore pseudoscience), our "knowledge" is comparable to retrospectively looking at the middle ages...

Also, I did not criticize the use of time for practical applications whatsoever. We need a way to track time so we can schedule our daily tasks, or, in your example, keep track of time in relation to velocity and position around the earth. I do, however, believe science theories involving time do not agree with theology as a whole.

One example is: Not enough hours in the day? Scientists predict time will stop completely - Telegraph.

Our life, universe, or presence of time cannot end by scientific means because that is not what the Bible teaches (Tribulations, New Jerusalem etc...). I'm just saying, you can't accept some of these abstract theories and still fully be invested in the Christian belief.
 
Apr 10, 2015
56
0
0
#87
I totally disagree. Time space mathematics is not some esoteric theory but concrete physics law like Newtons laws. Im not sure why you are frightened of physics. I know others who have said similar things. In the middle ages Galileo told the christian community that the sun and stars did NOT rotate around the earth. He was shunned n hounded for saying blasphemy. Please keep that in mind and accept that the science u just criticised (concerning space time) allows satellites to give you accurate information. I promise for my part to keep sight of GOD
Defining what time is in a black hole is nothing like Classical Mechanics. Mathematical models practice no empirical data, rather just the best consensus among scientists, which of course is a speculation among such theories of time. You'll find that many of these theories are constantly being disregarded as more knowledge of the topic increases. Mainstream scientific media does use these abstract mathematical models for some theories of time; many scientists in other fields agree that there is a problem with this approach.

This is a good indicator that one must be skeptical at all times; because when these theories are standing solely upon the scientists' opinions, and not graspable data (therefore pseudoscience), our "knowledge" is comparable to retrospectively looking at the middle ages... In other words, a century from now we will look at our knowledge of all of these concepts and find that we were naive to have our views today.

Also, I did not criticize the use of time for practical applications, whatsoever. I agree, we need a way to track time so we can schedule our daily tasks; or, in your example, keep track of time in relation to velocity and position around the earth. The practical use of a satellite has nothing to do with the science based on mathematical models that I am against. I'm for science that is testable through observation, and ultimately application.

I do, however, believe science theories involving time do not agree with theology as a whole.

One example is:
Not enough hours in the day? Scientists predict time will stop completely - Telegraph.

Our life, universe, or presence of time cannot end by scientific means because that is not what the Bible teaches (Tribulations, New Jerusalem etc...). I'm just saying, you can't accept some of these abstract theories and still fully be invested in the Christian belief.
 
Apr 8, 2015
895
18
0
#88
Defining what time is in a black hole is nothing like Classical Mechanics. Mathematical models indicate no empirical data, rather just the best consensus among scientists, which of course is a speculation among such theories of time. You'll find that many of these theories are constantly being disregarded as more knowledge of the topic increases. This is a good indicator that one must be skeptical at all times; because when these theories are standing solely upon the scientists' opinions, and not graspable data (therefore pseudoscience), our "knowledge" is comparable to retrospectively looking at the middle ages...

Also, I did not criticize the use of time for practical applications whatsoever. We need a way to track time so we can schedule our daily tasks, or, in your example, keep track of time in relation to velocity and position around the earth. I do, however, believe science theories involving time do not agree with theology as a whole.

One example is: Not enough hours in the day? Scientists predict time will stop completely - Telegraph.

Our life, universe, or presence of time cannot end by scientific means because that is not what the Bible teaches (Tribulations, New Jerusalem etc...). I'm just saying, you can't accept some of these abstract theories and still fully be invested in the Christian belief.
um...well this, as I said before, is not a consensus theory...Einsteins theories of general and special relativity is what keeps your satellites working accurately. Its not a theory that's discarded..its in use...time is affected by mass ... but hey its ok by me if either u feel Einstein foolish or his models are wrong.... I was merely saying to a friend what fascinates me n that it doesn't affect my view of god.
 

Desdichado

Senior Member
Feb 9, 2014
7,524
208
63
#89
Did you know that time slows in the presence of a large mass. So as you travel past a mass such as a black hole, time slows down or theoretically stops as the mass approaches infinity.... isn't this space stuff just amazing ������
I would be inclined to accept the theory of relativity if the phenomena occurred around my late great grandmother, elementary school gym teacher, or New Jersey Governor Chris Christie.
 
D

didymos

Guest
#91
With the universe literally having billions upon bullions of galaxies which in turns have billions of stars, you could argue that statistically life might also be on other planets and in different forms. If you think that this is possible, or even likely, how does Christian doctrine apply there.
So what about gnoms? Most people think they don't exist, but around the world there are like thousands of forests with zillions of trees in them. Chances are high gnomes inhabit some of those.

(... and here's the proof) :rolleyes:


 

posthuman

Senior Member
Jul 31, 2013
22,367
4,392
113
#92
* WARNING: MATH CONTENT *

With the universe literally having billions upon bullions of galaxies which in turns have billions of stars, you could argue that statistically life might also be on other planets and in different forms.

that argument is flawed from get-go because you don't know any of the probability distributions of any of the variables, and you don't even know what all the variables are.

it's true that advances in telescopes and how-to-use-them are nowadays giving us evidences of other planets around other stars. most of the "reasoning" you see on this topic these days is limited to whether a planet is at a distance from a star where it's "possible" that liquid water can exist (without freezing or boiling away - it's just a guess at surface temperature).
that is not the same question as whether life might exist on such a planet. existence of water ≠ existence of life.

billions and billions and billions of planets may still be a very small number with regard to an actual probability model for the existence of life.
remember, we do not know the number of variables, what variables they are, or what their distribution they have (i.e. what the odds of any particular variable being "favorable" is). maybe there are 100 variables. maybe there are a billion. these variables would all have to be "favorable" at the same time. that means their probabilities are multiplied together -- the overall odds can get very very small very very quickly.

here's an example of how a small number of variables can add up to a ridiculously small probability:
imagine you have 20 people going to dinner, and 20 chairs at a table - how many ways can they be seated?
the first can sit in one of 20 chairs, so there are 20 ways for this to occur.
the second can sit in one of 19, so there are 19 ways to seat that person.
((20*19 = 380 ways to seat just two people))
the third, 18, and so on.
so there are 20*19*18*17* ... *3*2*1 ways to seat 20 people. (( this is called 20! ))
the chances of any particular seating arrangement then is 1/(20!)
20!
2,432,902,817,664,000,000
if there is only one way that arranging the diners is "right" then the chances of choosing that seating arrangement is
1/(20!) ≈ 0.000000000000000000411
that's on the order of one in a billion billion.
and we only had 20 variables.

now imagine life has 1,000 variables.
see how billions of billions of billions is a small number of stars?
and 1,000 variables for the existence of life is actually a very very small approximation.
a million variables is arguably a better guess. and even that could be a very small guess.

people are 'fooled' by this kind of talk because they don't really understand the math, and they don't understand biology. lack of knowledge is deadly.
 
Apr 8, 2015
895
18
0
#93
* WARNING: MATH CONTENT *



that argument is flawed from get-go because you don't know any of the probability distributions of any of the variables, and you don't even know what all the variables are.

it's true that advances in telescopes and how-to-use-them are nowadays giving us evidences of other planets around other stars. most of the "reasoning" you see on this topic these days is limited to whether a planet is at a distance from a star where it's "possible" that liquid water can exist (without freezing or boiling away - it's just a guess at surface temperature).
that is not the same question as whether life might exist on such a planet. existence of water ≠ existence of life.

billions and billions and billions of planets may still be a very small number with regard to an actual probability model for the existence of life.
remember, we do not know the number of variables, what variables they are, or what their distribution they have (i.e. what the odds of any particular variable being "favorable" is). maybe there are 100 variables. maybe there are a billion. these variables would all have to be "favorable" at the same time. that means their probabilities are multiplied together -- the overall odds can get very very small very very quickly.

here's an example of how a small number of variables can add up to a ridiculously small probability:
imagine you have 20 people going to dinner, and 20 chairs at a table - how many ways can they be seated?
the first can sit in one of 20 chairs, so there are 20 ways for this to occur.
the second can sit in one of 19, so there are 19 ways to seat that person.
((20*19 = 380 ways to seat just two people))
the third, 18, and so on.
so there are 20*19*18*17* ... *3*2*1 ways to seat 20 people. (( this is called 20! ))
the chances of any particular seating arrangement then is 1/(20!)
20!
2,432,902,817,664,000,000
if there is only one way that arranging the diners is "right" then the chances of choosing that seating arrangement is
1/(20!) ≈ 0.000000000000000000411
that's on the order of one in a billion billion.
and we only had 20 variables.

now imagine life has 1,000 variables.
see how billions of billions of billions is a small number of stars?
and 1,000 variables for the existence of life is actually a very very small approximation.
a million variables is arguably a better guess. and even that could be a very small guess.

people are 'fooled' by this kind of talk because they don't really understand the math, and they don't understand biology. lack of knowledge is deadly.
Ive read your post. I think maybe im better at maths then you... but hey that just a statistical probability... just teasing..... im not really sure why you responded like this though. Is your argument that we shouldn't be considering the possibility of life elsewhere in the universe... and if thats your thinking.... why do u exclude it
 
Apr 8, 2015
895
18
0
#94
I would be inclined to accept the theory of relativity if the phenomena occurred around my late great grandmother, elementary school gym teacher, or New Jersey Governor Chris Christie.
Lol u might need to explain... or will i regret that
 
Apr 22, 2015
128
1
0
#96
I think there is life on other planets. Do I believe they are like aliens that we see in movies? I doubt it but since there are billions of galaxies out there. I think there has to be some sort of life out there.
 
R

Rudimental

Guest
#97
I think God definitely is doing other things elsewhere that we don't know about. Things we can't even begin to comprehend.

And of course He will reveal them to us in His time. When He wants us to know about it, when we're ready to.

But life with intelligence like ours? No way.

God created the heavens and then earth and then us.

We are His offspring. We are His masterpiece.

We are the reason Jesus needed to give His life.

Next to angels, we are the most intelligent of all Gods creations thus far.
 
A

AgeofKnowledge

Guest
#98
zoii,

1. Christopher Columbus did not believe the earth was flat nor did the vast majority of ancient Christians. See: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Myth_of_the_Flat_Earth

2. Galileo did not get in trouble for his scientific models but rather for reinterpreting scripture in a period when the Reformation raged against the doctrine of the Roman Catholic Church. The issue was primarily a socio-religious political issue not a scientific one and the first trial clearly shows that the central focus was who could interpret scripture.

Now the second trial was an extension of the Roman Inquisition where he was placed under house arrest and charged with heretical teaching (but never blasphemy as you falsely asserted) and forced to recant. Only the book in question (e.g. the Dialogue") was banned. His earlier works were legally permitted to circulate widely.

3. Not all mathematics relating to our universe's time and space dimensions correlate with "concrete physical law like Newton's laws." Most do relate, some do not relate, and some are fancifully speculative. Any scientist will tell you that testing forms the basis for legitimate scientific inquiry. Many existing mathematical hypothesis positing assertions that scientists can never detect as science are esoteric and speculative including those where there is even some sparse data. In fact, many assert physical environments entirely separate from our universe with completely different physical laws.

And it's not helpful to infer that everyone who points out these truths to you are cowardly for doing so.


I totally disagree. Time space mathematics is not some esoteric theory but concrete physics law like Newtons laws. Im not sure why you are frightened of physics. I know others who have said similar things. In the middle ages Galileo told the christian community that the sun and stars did NOT rotate around the earth. He was shunned n hounded for saying blasphemy. Please keep that in mind and accept that the science u just criticised (concerning space time) allows satellites to give you accurate information. I promise for my part to keep sight of GOD
 
A

AgeofKnowledge

Guest
#99
No, there doesn't have to be. Your ignorance with respect to the topic does not equate to the existence of advanced alien biological life.

The RTB team, led by astronomer/astrophysicist Dr. Hugh Ross, tackled this question scientifically and published their results taking care to normalize them with the Christian worldview (and doctrine) which you can read here:

Lights in the Sky & Little Green Men: A Rational Christian Look at UFOs and Extraterrestrials: Hugh Ross, Kenneth R. Samples, Mark Clark: 9781576832080: Amazon.com: Books



The twelve-part RUFO video series can be found here:

1. https://youtu.be/D8vGzOProVY
2. https://youtu.be/0Z8C0HTHYJY
3. https://youtu.be/sEQbZAh1erg
4. https://youtu.be/ty3bja1u-f0
5. https://youtu.be/D0uJrpojd44
6. https://youtu.be/sGOTmfnFl5Q
7. https://youtu.be/UeNF0NafeJ4
8. https://youtu.be/NaZt3iTXna8
9. https://youtu.be/T6AuUtoZBUU
10. https://youtu.be/RHMaWTtn6ZY
11. https://youtu.be/qHqzzTJYZOo
12. https://youtu.be/7e7kQ3Pp2eY


I think there is life on other planets. Do I believe they are like aliens that we see in movies? I doubt it but since there are billions of galaxies out there. I think there has to be some sort of life out there.
 

posthuman

Senior Member
Jul 31, 2013
22,367
4,392
113
Ive read your post. I think maybe im better at maths then you... but hey that just a statistical probability... just teasing..... im not really sure why you responded like this though. Is your argument that we shouldn't be considering the possibility of life elsewhere in the universe... and if thats your thinking.... why do u exclude it
i wasn't trying to fuss at you, just the way the news and everything talks about the idea.

i'm a mathematician, and have always loved space science. i guess i get frustrated by popular ideas about space that are doing the math wrong
:p
or whatever gets the math wrong, haha

i think life is a very very unlikely thing. that God made the earth very very special.
i think the search for life is a sort of manufactured idea to get people interested in space exploration and space programs. when the US went to the moon back in the 60's it was geologists and scientists that wanted to do it - but no one would have given NASA the money and resources unless Russia was also trying to do it. in most people's minds, it was a race to get there first, to show everyone they were better than the communists. all politics. the scientists and astronauts i don't think actually cared about that at all - they only cared about the science. a lot of them were socialists or communists from germany or eastern european countries controlled then by the USSR. who cares about communism vs. democracy? we want to go to the moon. whatever will convince you to give us enough money and stuff to build rockets, thanks so much!

it's the same today i think. the people who want to go to mars and to build telescopes to study planets really just want to study the universe. but without $$ they can't, and without people interested, they can't get $$. aliens make more people interested than questions about how stars and planets accrete out of clouds of dust, or the history of mars' geology.

i can't say 100% there is no life on other planets. i doubt it, but how could i say for sure?

think about this though, how all the talk about life existing all over the universe makes our creation seem like nothing. just one out of a billion other random species that had to exist because the dice got rolled enough times. and then you have the nutcases who say all intelligent and wonderful things that mankind came up with are because aliens gave it to us. everything they can't explain, they say "aliens."
so aliens turn into an argument for us being accidents, and aliens get turned into a replacement for knowledge from God, or knowledge taught by demons. neither one of those things go along with what how the Bible talks about us.

maybe i'm too old to be posting in here, hee hee. sorry. didn't mean to sound like i was angry. i just get picky about math, so i was arguing about "the argument" -- not with you :)
 
Last edited: