Hell or no hell

FranC · Feb 20, 2017

Here's the problem DD

Satan knows our weaknesses and will always tempt us in those weaknesses.

We each have our own dust that continues to fall on us and which must be dusted away.

The difference with your husband beating the wife analogy is this...
First of all when people come to Christ, they begin to turn from sin.
I say begin, because sanctification is a life-long process.
If someone is sorry for what they do, they will tend to do it less and less.
The husband will beat his wife less and less because Jesus has the power to remove the anger in him that causes this reaction to begin with.

I fear you may be speaking about sinless perfection. There is no such thing on this earth, although the striving for this ideal is commendable and even required of us.
But 1 John 1 tells us that if we say we are without sin, we make God to be a liar. Sorry, I don't have a Bible now.

And Luke 16 is said not to be a parable because in no other instance does Jesus give a name to persons in a parable. Why could it not be true?

Sorry if this had been brought up already.

Fran

pronia · Feb 20, 2017

BillG said:

it may be today but in the time of Jesus it wasn't. And certainly not before the time of Jesus.
Gehenna is the Greek word for Hebrew Gehinnom which was a small valley in Jerusalem, which I think in the Hebrew bible was known as the valley as the son of Hinnom.

Hinnom was a place where babies were sacrificed to the god of the Ammoites 'Molech' and which we find that Israel also came to worship as well. It has been said that they too sacrifices babies as well. It was also a play where Baal was worshiped.

God despised the false god Molech and made it clear to Israel to have nothing to with him, Leviticus 18:20.
He warned them that if they did then judgment would come their way.
In Jeremiah 19:6-7 we find

Jeremiah 19:6-7
therefore behold, the days are coming,” says the Lord, “that this place shall no more be called Tophet or the Valley of the Son of Hinnom, but the Valley of Slaughter. And I will make void the counsel of Judah and Jerusalem in this place, and I will cause them to fall by the sword before their enemies and by the hands of those who seek their lives; their corpses I will give as meat for the birds of the heaven and for the beasts of the earth.

Israel did not listen, God allowed Babylon to overtake them (the house of Judah). And were exiled. 70,years later the Jews were restored back to Israel and that time the valley of Hinnom was changed from a place of child sacrifice and idol worship to a place where basically the corpses of criminals, dead animals and all refuse was thrown into

In the time of Jesus it was basically a place that burnt the trash of the city and in order to do so it had be kept alight 24/7

So as I understand it Jesus never used the word 'Hell' He used the word Gehenna, well actually he wouldn't he would have used the word gah-ee Hinnom which was the Hebrew/Aramaic word to describe the rubbish dump.

I am not aware of any passage in the O.T. that talks about hell as an eternal torment, hot poker up your bum.

If you do let me know.

When Jesus talked about this place who was he talking to?

Luke sees no reason to mention it in either his gospel or the Book of Acts. John sees no reason to mention Gehenna in his gospel, in his 3 epistles or the book of Revelation. Peter ignores it in his two epistles and Paul, author of 14 books of the New Testament counting Hebrews, doesn’t mention Gehenna even one time. How can that be if all of mankind needs to be warned that they could end up in Gehenna? How do you explain that half of the references to Gehenna occur in private conversations between Jesus and his disciples? Shouldn’t Jesus, the disciples, Paul and the Bible as a whole be shouting the warning concerning of Gehenna to the entire world? Shouldn’t someone in the book of Acts which is all about evangelisation have mentioned Gehenna even one time?

As for me and what I think.
Well does it matter?
There are lots of thoughts out there and lots of disagreements.
I may be right you may be wrong.
what I do know though is this.
We can tie each other up with theology and argue about it and we miss the bigger picture.

For God so loved the world he gave his one only son so that whoever believes in him will not perish.
Ive been called to be to people what Jesus has asked me to be.
If by my love people see `Jesus then I am doing the good works that he has asked me to do.

just my limited thoughts

you must go to other Books for more information concerning the True nature of hell. The Books of Enoch is a Good place to begin

BillG · Feb 22, 2017

pronia said:

I have never read the books of Enoch.

pronia · Feb 22, 2017

BillG said:

There are a few different translations. I use 2 different ones. A hard copy by George Schodde and this internet link Book of Enoch | Read online or download the Book of Enoch PDF, EPUB or .MOBI (Kindle) May Lord GOD(Adonay Yehovih) give blessings from above as only He can. Brotherly love-john

pronia · Feb 22, 2017

FranC said:

The gospel of truth is joy to those who have received from the Father of truth the gift of knowing him by the power of the Logos, who has come from the Pleroma and who is in the thought and the mind of the Father; he it is who is called "the Savior," since that is the name of the work which he must do for the redemption of those who have not known the Father. For the name of the gospel is the manifestation of hope, since that is the discovery of those who seek him, because the All sought him from whom it had come forth. You see, the All had been inside of him, that illimitable, inconceivable one, who is better than every thought.
This ignorance of the Father brought about terror and fear. And terror became dense like a fog, that no one was able to see. Because of this, error became strong. But it worked on its hylic substance vainly, because it did not know the truth. It was in a fashioned form while it was preparing, in power and in beauty, the equivalent of truth. This then, was not a humiliation for him, that illimitable, inconceivable one. For they were as nothing, this terror and this forgetfulness and this figure of falsehood, whereas this established truth is unchanging, unperturbed and completely beautiful.
For this reason, do not take error too seriously. Thus, since it had no root, it was in a fog as regards the Father, engaged in preparing works and forgetfulnesses and fears in order, by these means, to beguile those of the middle and to make them captive. The forgetfulness of error was not revealed. It did not become light beside the Father. Forgetfulness did not exist with the Father, although it existed because of him. What exists in him is knowledge, which was revealed so that forgetfulness might be destroyed and that they might know the Father, Since forgetfulness existed because they did not know the Father, if they then come to know the Father, from that moment on forgetfulness will cease to exist.
That is the gospel of him whom they seek, which he has revealed to the perfect through the mercies of the Father as the hidden mystery, Jesus the Christ. Through him he enlightened those who were in darkness because of forgetfulness. He enlightened them and gave them a path. And that path is the truth which he taught them. For this reason error was angry with him, so it persecuted him. It was distressed by him, so it made him powerless. He was nailed to a cross. He became a fruit of the knowledge of the Father. He did not, however, destroy them because they ate of it. He rather caused those who ate of it to be joyful because of this discovery.
And as for him, them he found in himself, and him they found in themselves, that illimitable, inconceivable one, that perfect Father who made the all, in whom the All is, and whom the All lacks, since he retained in himself their perfection, which he had not given to the all. The Father was not jealous. What jealousy, indeed, is there between him and his members? For, even if the Aeon had received their perfection, they would not have been able to approach the perfection of the Father, because he retained their perfection in himself, giving it to them as a way to return to him and as a knowledge unique in perfection. He is the one who set the All in order and in whom the All existed and whom the All lacked. As one of whom some have no knowledge, he desires that they know him and that they love him. For what is it that the All lacked, if not the knowledge of the Father?
He became a guide, quiet and in leisure. In the middle of a school he came and spoke the Word, as a teacher. Those who were wise in their own estimation came to put him to the test. But he discredited them as empty-headed people. They hated him because they really were not wise men. After all these came also the little children, those who possess the knowledge of the Father. When they became strong they were taught the aspects of the Father's face. They came to know and they were known. They were glorified and they gave glory. In their heart, the living book of the Living was manifest, the book which was written in the thought and in the mind of the Father and, from before the foundation of the All, is in that incomprehensible part of him.
This is the book which no one found possible to take, since it was reserved for him who will take it and be slain. No one was able to be manifest from those who believed in salvation as long as that book had not appeared. For this reason, the compassionate, faithful Jesus was patient in his sufferings until he took that book, since he knew that his death meant life for many. Just as in the case of a will which has not yet been opened, for the fortune of the deceased master of the house is hidden, so also in the case of the All which had been hidden as long as the Father of the All was invisible and unique in himself, in whom every space has its source. For this reason Jesus appeared. He took that book as his own. He was nailed to a cross. He affixed the edict of the Father to the cross.
Oh, such great teaching! ...

FranC · Feb 22, 2017

pronia said:

God won't be there and it'll be only evil.
What else is necessary to know???
That's enough for me.

FranC · Feb 22, 2017

pronia said:

This must be the book of Enoch?

It sounds a little like the gospel of John.
I have extra-biblical books and they sound like nonsense to me.
I've stopped reading this stuff.

All we need to know is in the gospels and letters.

As far as hell is concerned, there is only one place in the entire New Testament were hell is mentioned and correctly translated:

2 Peter 2:4
Tartarus

Here is an explanation:

Tartarus
The apostle Peter wrote that:

“God spared not angels when they sinned, but cast them down to hell, and committed them to pits of darkness, to be reserved unto judgment . . .” (2 Pet. 2:4).
Here, “hell” is from the Greek term tartarosas, a participle, the noun form of which is Tartarus (so rendered in the footnote of the ASV). This is this word’s only occurrence in the New Testament.

Originally it simply denoted a deep place; it carries that significance in Job 40:13; 41:31 in the Septuagint. Homer, the Greek poet, spoke of “dark Tartarus . . . the deepest pit” (Iliad, 8.13). Here, it is used of the abode of evil angels prior to their banishment to Gehenna, their ultimate destiny (cf. Mt. 25:41).

The ancient Greeks, however, applied the word to the region of the wicked dead. Since there is no indication that Peter assigns an extraordinary meaning to the term, it is reasonable to conclude that it denotes that area of Hades in which both rebel men and angels are punished preliminary to the day of judgment.

Note that 2 Peter 2:9 reads: “the Lord knows how to deliver the godly out of temptation,
and to keep the unrighteous under punishment unto the day of judgment” (ASV; cf. NKJV). The present participle “under punishment” reveals that the penalty was already being inflicted at the time the apostle is writing. The KJV, which suggests that the punishment comes after the judgment, does not reflect the true sense of the original. Tartarus is therefore most likely the specific name of the Hadean realm where the rich man was languishing (Lk. 16:23).

Note that Luke 16 is mentioned at the end.
Many believe that the saved and unsaved will be sent to their ultimate destination after the judement (White Seat).

In the gospel of Luke 16 we read that the evil, or unsaved, are already at their place of destination even BEFORE Christ died.

pronia · Feb 22, 2017

FranC said:

This must be the book of Enoch?

It sounds a little like the gospel of John.
I have extra-biblical books and they sound like nonsense to me.
I've stopped reading this stuff.

All we need to know is in the gospels and letters.

As far as hell is concerned, there is only one place in the entire New Testament were hell is mentioned and correctly translated:

2 Peter 2:4
Tartarus

Here is an explanation:

Tartarus
The apostle Peter wrote that:

“God spared not angels when they sinned, but cast them down to hell, and committed them to pits of darkness, to be reserved unto judgment . . .” (2 Pet. 2:4).
Here, “hell” is from the Greek term tartarosas, a participle, the noun form of which is Tartarus (so rendered in the footnote of the ASV). This is this word’s only occurrence in the New Testament.

Originally it simply denoted a deep place; it carries that significance in Job 40:13; 41:31 in the Septuagint. Homer, the Greek poet, spoke of “dark Tartarus . . . the deepest pit” (Iliad, 8.13). Here, it is used of the abode of evil angels prior to their banishment to Gehenna, their ultimate destiny (cf. Mt. 25:41).

The ancient Greeks, however, applied the word to the region of the wicked dead. Since there is no indication that Peter assigns an extraordinary meaning to the term, it is reasonable to conclude that it denotes that area of Hades in which both rebel men and angels are punished preliminary to the day of judgment.

Note that 2 Peter 2:9 reads: “the Lord knows how to deliver the godly out of temptation,
and to keep the unrighteous under punishment unto the day of judgment” (ASV; cf. NKJV). The present participle “under punishment” reveals that the penalty was already being inflicted at the time the apostle is writing. The KJV, which suggests that the punishment comes after the judgment, does not reflect the true sense of the original. Tartarus is therefore most likely the specific name of the Hadean realm where the rich man was languishing (Lk. 16:23).

Note that Luke 16 is mentioned at the end.
Many believe that the saved and unsaved will be sent to their ultimate destination after the judement (White Seat).

In the gospel of Luke 16 we read that the evil, or unsaved, are already at their place of destination even BEFORE Christ died.

Walk till you Run
And don't look back
For HERE...I AM
Who wrote this? Is this part of the Gospel?

pronia · Feb 22, 2017

And I said to the savior, "Lord, will all the souls then be brought safely into the pure light?" He answered and said to me, "Great things have arisen in your mind, for it is difficult to explain them to others except to those who are from the immovable race. Those on whom the Spirit of life will descend and (with whom) he will be with the power, they will be saved and become perfect and be worthy of the greatness and be purified in that place from all wickedness and the involvements in evil. Then they have no other care than the incorruption alone, to which they direct their attention from here on, without anger or envy or jealousy or desire and greed of anything. They are not affected by anything except the state of being in the flesh alone, which they bear while looking expectantly for the time when they will be met by the receivers (of the body). Such then are worthy of the imperishable, eternal life and the calling. For they endure everything and bear up under everything, that they may finish the good fight and inherit eternal life."
I said to him, "Lord, the souls of those who did not do these works (but) on whom the power and Spirit descended, (will they be rejected?" He answered and said to me, "If) the Spirit (descended upon them), they will in any case be saved, and they will change (for the better). For the power will descend on every man, for without it no one can stand. And after they are born, then, when the Spirit of life increases and the power comes and strengthens that soul, no one can lead it astray with works of evil. But those on whom the counterfeit spirit descends are drawn by him and they go astray."
And I said, "Lord, where will the souls of these go when they have come out of their flesh?" And he smiled and said to me, "The soul in which the power will become stronger than the counterfeit spirit, is strong and it flees from evil and, through the intervention of the incorruptible one, it is saved, and it is taken up to the rest of the aeons."
And I said, "Lord, those, however, who have not known to whom they belong, where will their souls be?" And he said to me, "In those, the despicable spirit has gained strength when they went astray. And he burdens the soul and draws it to the works of evil, and he casts it down into forgetfulness. And after it comes out of (the body), it is handed over to the authorities, who came into being through the archon, and they bind it with chains and cast it into prison, and consort with it until it is liberated from the forgetfulness and acquires knowledge. And if thus it becomes perfect, it is saved."
And I said, "Lord, how can the soul become smaller and return into the nature of its mother or into man?" Then he rejoiced when I asked him this, and he said to me, "Truly, you are blessed, for you have understood! That soul is made to follow another one (fem.), since the Spirit of life is in it. It is saved through him. It is not again cast into another flesh."
And I said, "Lord, these also who did not know, but have turned away, where will their souls go?" Then he said to me, "To that place where the angels of poverty go they will be taken, the place where there is no repentance. And they will be kept for the day on which those who have blasphemed the spirit will be tortured, and they will be punished with eternal punishment." Matthew 5:25 -...¶...Agree with thine adversary quickly, whiles thou art in the way with him; lest at any time the adversary deliver thee to the judge, and the judge deliver thee to the officer, and thou be cast into prison"...

88 · Feb 23, 2017

Part 6 of the discussion on thhttps://youtu.be/4utjQaN1LYMe reality of Hell---Dr. Michael Brown discusses Rob Bell's book "Love Wins"...

SunsSunny · Feb 23, 2017

There seems to be mention of gospel books outside the Bible. I just want to warn everyone who reads this that it is from a dangerous heresy known as Gnosticism. In fact I have experienced it my self and fell horribly into sin.' Collosians was written by Paul to keep them from being deceived. If they thought the manuscript was direly inspired and true, they would've included it in the Bible. Some documents are clever forgeries meant to lead people astray.

I think it is clear that hell exists, and has been prepared as a place for the wicked. Many people have already mentioned the revelant scriptures and resources.

I have been asked another question which seems to be the heart of this matter for some people: if there was no heaven or hell, would you still love God and obey his commandments? Examine yourselves, and try to see the driving force behind these inquisitions. Paul went a step further and said he would wish himself accursed for the sake of the brethren!

I feel like universalism and gnostic heresy share the same underlining aspect of allowing sin by twisting doctrine! Be careful!

pronia · Feb 23, 2017

SunsSunny said:

"Gnosis" simply means "knowledge". Just as "apocrypha" means "hidden". As in "hidden" MANNA ¶...He that hath an ear, let him hear what the Spirit saith unto the churches; To him that overcometh will I give to eat of the hidden manna, and will give him a white stone, and in the stone a new name written, which no man knoweth saving he that receiveth it..." See Peter's "apocrypha" ...¶...
And having said these things, he cried out, "Pearls! Pearls!" The rich men of that city heard his voice. They came out of their hidden storerooms. And some were looking out from the storerooms of their houses. Others looked out from their upper windows. And they did not see (that they could gain) anything from him, because there was no pouch on his back nor bundle inside his cloth and napkin. And because of their disdain they did not even acknowledge him. He, for his part, did not reveal himself to them. They returned to their storerooms, saying, "This man is mocking us."
And the poor of that city heard his voice, and they came to the man who sells this pearl. They said, "Please take the trouble to show us the pearl so that we may, then, see it with our (own) eyes. For we are the poor. And we do not have this [...] price to pay for it. But show us that we might say to our friends that we saw a pearl with our (own) eyes." He answered, saying to them, "If it is possible, come to my city, so that I may not only show it before your (very) eyes, but give it to you for nothing."
And indeed they, the poor of that city, heard and said, "Since we are beggars, we surely know that a man does not give a pearl to a beggar, but (it is) bread and money that is usually received. Now then, the kindness which we want to receive from you (is) that you show us the pearl before our eyes. And we will say to our friends proudly that we saw a pearl with our (own) eyes" - because it is not found among the poor, especially such beggars (as these). He answered (and) said to them, "If it is possible, you yourselves come to my city, so that I may not only show you it, but give it to you for nothing." The poor and the beggars rejoiced because of the man who gives for nothing.
The men asked Peter about the hardships. Peter answered and told those things that he had heard about the hardships of the way. Because they are interpreters of the hardships in their ministry.
He said to the man who sells this pearl, "I want to know your name and the hardships of the way to your city because we are strangers and servants of God. It is necessary for us to spread the word of God in every city harmoniously." He answered and said, "If you seek my name, Lithargoel is my name, the interpretation of which is, the light, gazelle-like stone.

pronia · Feb 23, 2017

SunsSunny said:

While her enemies look at her in shame, she runs upward into her treasure-house - the one in which her mind is - and (into) her storehouse which is secure, since nothing among the things that have come into being has seized her, nor has she received a stranger into her house. For many are her homeborn ones who fight against her by day and by night, having no rest by day or by night, for their lust oppresses them.
For this reason, then, we do not sleep, nor do we forget the nets that are spread out in hiding, lying in wait for us to catch us. For if we are caught in a single net, it will suck us down into its mouth, while the water flows over us, striking our face. And we will be taken down into the dragnet, and we will not be able to come up from it, because the waters are high over us, flowing from above downward, submerging our heart down in the filthy mud. And we will not be able to escape from them. For man-eaters will seize us and swallow us, rejoicing like a fisherman casting a hook into the water. For he casts many kinds of food into the water because each one of the fish has his own food. He smells it and pursues its odor. But when he eats it, the hook hidden within the food seizes him and brings him up by force out of the deep waters. No man is able, then, to catch that fish down in the deep waters, except for the trap that the fisherman sets. By the ruse of food he brought the fish up on the hook.
In this very way we exist in this world, like fish. The adversary spies on us, lying in wait for us like a fisherman, wishing to seize us, rejoicing that he might swallow us. For he places many foods before our eyes (things) which belong to this world. He wishes to make us desire one of them and to taste only a little, so that he may seize us with his hidden poison and bring us out of freedom and take us into slavery. For whenever he catches us with a single food, it is indeed necessary for us to desire the rest. Finally, then, such things become the food of death.
Now these are the foods with which the devil lies in wait for us. First he injects a pain into your heart until you have heartache on account of a small thing of this life, and he seizes (you) with his poisons. And afterward (he injects) the desire of a tunic, so that you will pride yourself in it, and love of money, pride, vanity, envy that rivals another envy, beauty of body, fraudulence. The greatest of all these are ignorance and ease.
Now all such things the adversary prepares beautifully and spreads out before the body, wishing to make the mind of the soul incline her toward one of them and overwhelm her, like a hook, drawing her by force in ignorance, deceiving her until she conceives evil, and bears fruit of matter, and conducts herself in uncleanness, pursuing many desires, covetousnesses, while fleshly pleasure draws her in ignorance.
But the soul - she who has tasted these things - realized that sweet passions are transitory. She had learned about evil; she went away from them and she entered into a new conduct. Afterwards she despises this life, because it is transitory. And she looks for those foods that will take her into life, and leaves behind her those deceitful foods. And she learns about her light, as she goes about stripping off this world, while her true garment clothes her within, (and) her bridal clothing is placed upon her in beauty of mind, not in pride of flesh. And she learns about her depth and runs into her fold, while her shepherd stands at the door. In return for all the shame and scorn, then, that she received in this world, she receives ten thousand times the grace and glory.

pronia · Feb 23, 2017

pronia said:

While her enemies look at her in shame, she runs upward into her treasure-house - the one in which her mind is - and (into) her storehouse which is secure, since nothing among the things that have come into being has seized her, nor has she received a stranger into her house. For many are her homeborn ones who fight against her by day and by night, having no rest by day or by night, for their lust oppresses them.
For this reason, then, we do not sleep, nor do we forget the nets that are spread out in hiding, lying in wait for us to catch us. For if we are caught in a single net, it will suck us down into its mouth, while the water flows over us, striking our face. And we will be taken down into the dragnet, and we will not be able to come up from it, because the waters are high over us, flowing from above downward, submerging our heart down in the filthy mud. And we will not be able to escape from them. For man-eaters will seize us and swallow us, rejoicing like a fisherman casting a hook into the water. For he casts many kinds of food into the water because each one of the fish has his own food. He smells it and pursues its odor. But when he eats it, the hook hidden within the food seizes him and brings him up by force out of the deep waters. No man is able, then, to catch that fish down in the deep waters, except for the trap that the fisherman sets. By the ruse of food he brought the fish up on the hook.
In this very way we exist in this world, like fish. The adversary spies on us, lying in wait for us like a fisherman, wishing to seize us, rejoicing that he might swallow us. For he places many foods before our eyes (things) which belong to this world. He wishes to make us desire one of them and to taste only a little, so that he may seize us with his hidden poison and bring us out of freedom and take us into slavery. For whenever he catches us with a single food, it is indeed necessary for us to desire the rest. Finally, then, such things become the food of death.
Now these are the foods with which the devil lies in wait for us. First he injects a pain into your heart until you have heartache on account of a small thing of this life, and he seizes (you) with his poisons. And afterward (he injects) the desire of a tunic, so that you will pride yourself in it, and love of money, pride, vanity, envy that rivals another envy, beauty of body, fraudulence. The greatest of all these are ignorance and ease.
Now all such things the adversary prepares beautifully and spreads out before the body, wishing to make the mind of the soul incline her toward one of them and overwhelm her, like a hook, drawing her by force in ignorance, deceiving her until she conceives evil, and bears fruit of matter, and conducts herself in uncleanness, pursuing many desires, covetousnesses, while fleshly pleasure draws her in ignorance.
But the soul - she who has tasted these things - realized that sweet passions are transitory. She had learned about evil; she went away from them and she entered into a new conduct. Afterwards she despises this life, because it is transitory. And she looks for those foods that will take her into life, and leaves behind her those deceitful foods. And she learns about her light, as she goes about stripping off this world, while her true garment clothes her within, (and) her bridal clothing is placed upon her in beauty of mind, not in pride of flesh. And she learns about her depth and runs into her fold, while her shepherd stands at the door. In return for all the shame and scorn, then, that she received in this world, she receives ten thousand times the grace and glory.

Be not desirous of his dainties: for they are deceitful meat.

pronia · Feb 23, 2017

SunsSunny said:

Now all such things the adversary prepares beautifully and spreads out before the body, wishing to make the mind of the soul incline her toward one of them and overwhelm her, like a hook, drawing her by force in ignorance, deceiving her until she conceives evil, and bears fruit of matter, and conducts herself in uncleanness, pursuing many desires, covetousnesses, while fleshly pleasure draws her in ignorance.
But the soul - she who has tasted these things - realized that sweet passions are transitory. She had learned about evil; she went away from them and she entered into a new conduct. Afterwards she despises this life, because it is transitory. And she looks for those foods that will take her into life, and leaves behind her those deceitful foods. And she learns about her light, as she goes about stripping off this world, while her true garment clothes her within, (and) her bridal clothing is placed upon her in beauty of mind, not in pride of flesh. And she learns about her depth and runs into her fold, while her shepherd stands at the door. In return for all the shame and scorn, then, that she received in this world, she receives ten thousand times the grace and glory.
She gave the body to those who had given it to her, and they were ashamed, while the dealers in bodies sat down and wept because they were not able to do any business with that body, nor did they find any (other) merchandise except it. They endured great labors until they had shaped the body of this soul, wishing to strike down the invisible soul. They were therefore ashamed of their work; they suffered the loss of the one for whom they had endured labors. They did not realize that she has an invisible spiritual body, thinking, "We are her shepherd who feeds her." But they did not realize that she knows another way, which is hidden from them. This her true shepherd taught her in knowledge.
But these - the ones who are ignorant - do not seek after God. Nor do they inquire about their dwelling-place, which exists in rest, but they go about in bestiality. They are more wicked than the pagans, because first of all they do not inquire about God, for their hardness of heart draws them down to make them their cruelty. Furthermore, if they find someone else who asks about his salvation, their hardness of heart sets to work upon that man. And if he does not stop asking, they kill him by their cruelty, thinking that they have done a good thing for themselves.
Indeed they are sons of the devil! For even pagans give charity, and they know that God who is in the heavens exists, the Father of the universe, exalted over their idols, which they worship. But they have not heard the word, that they should inquire about his ways. Thus the senseless man hears the call, but he is ignorant of the place to which he has been called. And he did not ask during the preaching, "Where is the temple into which I should go and worship my hope?"

DiscipleDave · Feb 27, 2017

FranC said:

True, but Jesus in us, is stronger than satan and his temptation.

FranC said:

This is TRUE. Whenever i tried to quit all sinning all at once, i failed miserably. But when i worked on one sin at a time, that sin that so easily beset me, with the help of Jesus helping me, i was able to quit sinning. i quit cursing, i then quit smoking, i then quit getting angry, i then quit having sex, i then quit looking at porn. All these things i could not do through my own power or strength. Jesus Helped me the whole way.

FranC said:

Scriptures teaches that, i teach what Scriptures teach and what God told me.
Awake to Righteousness and sin not.
Go and sin no more.
Be Perfect, as your Father in Heaven is Perfect
Be Holy, as I am Holy.
Those who are Righteous, don't do that which is UNRIGHTEOUS
Good Trees do not produce any bad fruits.
Walk in the light as He is in the light.
and hundreds of other verses all of which teach sinless perfection. It's just this generation love to keep their blinders on so as to not see the Truth.

FranC said:

And yet Scriptures teaches there is, through Jesus Christ, for nothing is impossible to those who believe.

FranC said:

How do you now say it is required of us, if you say it is not possible for us? Why would Jesus require us to do something that is impossible to do. Jesus told a man and a woman to "Go and sin no more" He did not tell them to do that, because it was IMPOSSIBLE to do, He told them to "Go and sin no more" because that is possible to do, with HIS help.

FranC said:

Well you really should get your Bible, because that is not what it says. TRUE it is what this generation believes it says, but that is NOT what it actually says.

1Jn 1:6 If we say that we have fellowship with him (Saved), and walk in darkness (commit sin), we lie, and do not the truth:
1Jn 1:7 But IF (Conditional) we walk in the light, as he is in the light, we have fellowship one with another, and the blood of Jesus Christ his Son cleanseth us from all sin. ( When does His Blood cleanseth us from All sin? When we are walking in the light like Jesus did, that is when His Blood cleanseth us from all sin)
1Jn 1:8 If we say that we have no sin, we deceive ourselves, and the truth is not in us. (Anyone who thinks they HAVE never sinned, or Have not sinned is deceived)
1Jn 1:9 If we confess our sins, he is faithful and just to forgive us our sins, and to cleanse us from all unrighteousness. (But only to those who TRULY REPENT of their sins, not for those who continue to live those sins)
1Jn 1:10 If we say that we have not sinned, we make him a liar, and his word is not in us. (Again, concerning those who think they HAVE NEVER sinned.

So these verses are not concerning those who claim to no longer live in sin, but is clearly talking about those who think they have never sinned, or HAVE (past tense) NO SIN. i no longer continue to live in sin, i HAVE SINNED much, i am a sinner, because I HAVE SINNED. i have probably sinned more that you doubled. So those verses do not say what you say

Those verses are talking about those who think they HAVE NO SIN. Never sinned.

FranC said:

So you think the parable is True, because Jesus named his characters in the parable? This is your basis for it NOT being a parable? So tell me. If it is TRUE, it said that Abraham is the Father in Heaven? Do you believe Abraham, (100% human man, with human father and mother) is the FATHER in Heaven, like the parable says? The mere FACT that Jesus chose to use Abraham as being the Father in Heaven, should reveal to EVERYONE that it is indeed a parable. Because Abraham is NOT the Father in Heaven, as Jesus Parable indicated.

^i^

††† In His Holy and Precious Name, Jesus Christ †††

DiscipleDave

FranC · Feb 28, 2017

DiscipleDave said:

True, but Jesus in us, is stronger than satan and his temptation.

I agree. But we should't think lightly of the enemy either.
Some people don't give him enough credit. We should fear him, in a healthy way.
Jesus was able to Always speak the bible to him and make him weak in the Lord's sight.
We would do the same and not give him any glory.

This is TRUE. Whenever i tried to quit all sinning all at once, i failed miserably. But when i worked on one sin at a time, that sin that so easily beset me, with the help of Jesus helping me, i was able to quit sinning. i quit cursing, i then quit smoking, i then quit getting angry, i then quit having sex, i then quit looking at porn. All these things i could not do through my own power or strength. Jesus Helped me the whole way.

The purity in you wanted pure things. This is how we all should live, but we each have our own path to follow.
I know of a man in my town that sold everything he had and bought a small home and gives to poor people almost all that he owns. If I tried this, I would fail miserably. God called me for a different service.
I speak to any new Christians reading along that we must do our best, and many times this is all we can do.
Jesus requests different things from different people.
1 Corinthians chapter 12 speaks to this. In fact the entire letter to the Corinthians speaks a lot to your post.
For if we demand of everyone the same, some will become discouraged and leave the faith.

Scriptures teaches that, i teach what Scriptures teach and what God told me.
Awake to Righteousness and sin not.
Go and sin no more.
Be Perfect, as your Father in Heaven is Perfect
Be Holy, as I am Holy.
Those who are Righteous, don't do that which is UNRIGHTEOUS
Good Trees do not produce any bad fruits.
Walk in the light as He is in the light.
and hundreds of other verses all of which teach sinless perfection. It's just this generation love to keep their blinders on so as to not see the Truth.

I believe that sinless perfection will not be achieved until Glorification and that Sanctification is a road we are travelling while on earth.
This is not to say that one should not make this walk the best way he can.
Of course the bible says all these things. Let's remember that Jesus said, Only My Father In Heaven Is Good.
Luke 18:19We are to use Jesus as our inspiration, example, hope, and strength. But we should not be discouraged if we cannot be perfect as He was perfect. This is a goal. I'm not sure many achieve it.

And yet Scriptures teaches there is, through Jesus Christ, for nothing is impossible to those who believe.

You're speaking of sinless perfection. I answered above.

How do you now say it is required of us, if you say it is not possible for us? Why would Jesus require us to do something that is impossible to do. Jesus told a man and a woman to "Go and sin no more" He did not tell them to do that, because it was IMPOSSIBLE to do, He told them to "Go and sin no more" because that is possible to do, with HIS help.

I said we must STRIVE for this ideal. I did not say that I thought we'd ever achieve it.
Of course our ideal is to strive NOT to sin. But John himself says that we will

Well you really should get your Bible, because that is not what it says. TRUE it is what this generation believes it says, but that is NOT what it actually says.

1Jn 1:6 If we say that we have fellowship with him (Saved), and walk in darkness (commit sin), we lie, and do not the truth:
1Jn 1:7 But IF (Conditional) we walk in the light, as he is in the light, we have fellowship one with another, and the blood of Jesus Christ his Son cleanseth us from all sin. ( When does His Blood cleanseth us from All sin? When we are walking in the light like Jesus did, that is when His Blood cleanseth us from all sin)
1Jn 1:8 If we say that we have no sin, we deceive ourselves, and the truth is not in us. (Anyone who thinks they HAVE never sinned, or Have not sinned is deceived)
1Jn 1:9 If we confess our sins, he is faithful and just to forgive us our sins, and to cleanse us from all unrighteousness. (But only to those who TRULY REPENT of their sins, not for those who continue to live those sins)
1Jn 1:10 If we say that we have not sinned, we make him a liar, and his word is not in us. (Again, concerning those who think they HAVE NEVER sinned.

So these verses are not concerning those who claim to no longer live in sin, but is clearly talking about those who think they have never sinned, or HAVE (past tense) NO SIN. i no longer continue to live in sin, i HAVE SINNED much, i am a sinner, because I HAVE SINNED. i have probably sinned more that you doubled. So those verses do not say what you say
Those verses are talking about those who think they HAVE NO SIN. Never sinned.

Do you know why the Catholic Church has confession?
Do you know why it was developed into what it is now?
Because the early Church Fathers and theologians realized there was a problem.
A person's sins were washed away when they became Christian and were baptized.The problem the catholic, or universal Church of that time, realized there was a problem. What to do with sin that occurred AFTER salvation and baptism??

If they developed the doctrine of confession it was as a solution to the above problem. This means that the Church itself believed it was possible to sin after becoming a Christian. Even the Pope says he sins. Even ministers and pastos and preachers say they sin, or commit sins. Your reading is not right, but I don't care to discuss this. Let's just say that it IS important not to sin as much as is possible and that God will Always help us. This is why the Holy Spirit was sent to us.

So you think the parable is True, because Jesus named his characters in the parable? This is your basis for it NOT being a parable? So tell me. If it is TRUE, it said that Abraham is the Father in Heaven? Do you believe Abraham, (100% human man, with human father and mother) is the FATHER in Heaven, like the parable says? The mere FACT that Jesus chose to use Abraham as being the Father in Heaven, should reveal to EVERYONE that it is indeed a parable. Because Abraham is NOT the Father in Heaven, as Jesus Parable indicated.

What I think is of no consequence. I quote theologians, NOT WHAT I BELIEVE.
Luke 16 is not a parable.
It does not say that Abraham is our Father in heaven, or God Father.

It's referring to Abraham being the Father of the Jews.
See John 8:39

39 They answered and said to Him, “Abraham is our father.” Jesus said to them, “If you are Abraham’s children, do the deeds of Abraham.

Abraham is the Father also of the New Covenant since many nations have come to believe as in the Abrahamic Covenant.
This speaking of Abraham in Luke 16 is meant in this way:

Luke 16:19-31

The Rich Man and Lazarus

19"Now there was a rich man, and he habitually dressed in purple and fine linen, joyously living in splendor every day.
20"And a poor man named Lazarus was laid at his gate, covered with sores,
21and longing to be fed with the [crumbs] which were falling from the rich man's table; besides, even the dogs were coming and licking his sores.
22"Now the poor man died and was carried away by the angels to Abraham's bosom; and the rich man also died and was buried.

23"In Hades he lifted up his eyes, being in torment, and saw Abraham far away and Lazarus in his bosom.24"And he cried out and said, Father Abraham, have mercy on me, and send Lazarus so that he may dip the tip of his finger in water and cool off my tongue, for I am in agony in this flame.'
25"But Abraham said, 'Child, remember that during your life you received your good things, and likewise Lazarus bad things; but now he is being comforted here, and you are in agony.
26And besides all this, between us and you there is a great chasm fixed, so that those who wish to come over from here to you will not be able, and [that] none may cross over from there to us.'
27"And he said, 'Then I beg you, father, that you send him to my father's house--
28for I have five brothers-- in order that he may warn them, so that they will not also come to this place of torment.'
29"But Abraham said, 'They have Moses and the Prophets; let them hear them.'
30"But he said, 'No, father Abraham, but if someone goes to them from the dead, they will repent!'
31"But he said to him, 'If they do not listen to Moses and the Prophets, they will not be persuaded even if someone rises from the dead.'"^i^

††† In His Holy and Precious Name, Jesus Christ †††

DiscipleDave

DiscipleDave · Mar 13, 2017

DiscipleDave said:

FranC said:

True.[/quote]

DiscipleDave said:

FranC said:

We are many different members of the same Body, all of us have different things that God wants us to do. Mine is to reprove, rebuke, and exhort Backsliders. However, something EVERY member of the Body should agree on, is that SIN is evil, bad, wicked, and darkness and should not be done at all. Scriptures teach to no longer obey the flesh and its desires, if you do obey the desires of your flesh, you are backsliding, and therefore need a member of the Body to reprove, rebuke, and exhort that person. And Yes with Love do so. But no matter how you reprove, rebuke, or exhort, and do so in 100% LOVE, it rarely ever is seen as being done in Love to the one that is being reproved, rebuked, or exhorted. So generally they throw stones (tantrums) when they are being reproved, rebuked, or exhorted. This is because they are still on Milk of the word and not meat. Children.

DiscipleDave said:

FranC said:

And where in Scriptures do you get your basis for this belief?
If i can do it, so can all of you. What Jesus helps me with every temptation that comes upon me, but He will NOT help you in the same way? His Strength and Power can overcome every temptation, If He does it for me, He will do it for you too. The problem is people from this generation do NOT want to stop sinning, they love to sin, they love to look at porn, they love to fornicate, they love to lust, and the such. They are not willing to give them up because they think they don't have to give them up and still go to Heaven. They think, they are Heaven bound even though they continue to live in sins. And they believe that because they hold onto false doctrines that teach them that. Such as OSAS. Once saved, it doesn't matter what sins you commit or live in, or how much evil you do, you are still SAVED and going to Heaven. Once Saved, they are Righteous through Jesus Christ, no matter how many UNRIGHTEOUS things they do DAILY, they are still Righteous. Yet Scriptures plainly teach who the Righteous are, Those who are Righteous, according to Scriptures, do not do that which is UNRIGHTEOUS. But this generation holds on to a false doctrine that they are Righteous through Jesus Christ, even though they can be the most unrighteous person in the town. FREE to sin, as long as they claim they are SAVED.

FranC said:

And they Can, For all things are possible to them that believe.

FranC said:

Many are called, but out of those, only a few are chosen. The few FIND the narrow and difficult path that leads to Life Everlasting. my calling is to the Millions of Christians who are on the Wide and easy path that leads to destruction, all the while they are thinking they are on the narrow path that leads to Life Everlasting.

DiscipleDave said:

FranC said:

So let me understand you are on a race that you think you will never finish? That is what you are saying. You are striving for something that you think you will not attain? How then are you striving for it? If you don't think it is possible then for you it will never be possible. A person must believe it is possible before they can attain it. You are trying to bake a cake that you know will never get Baked. How pointless is that? You say John himself says that we will. i have read the entire Bible over 80 times in my life and listen to it for 8 hours a day at work. Tell me, where does it teach that we CHRISTIANS will continue to sin? i assure you with no doubts, it is YOUR interpretation of a verse, that YOU THINK it teaches that. Scriptures does not teach that. Scriptures teaches over and over and over against to STOP SINNING. To get rid of the sin that so easily besets you. IF you say John is teaching that we will sin, then he most assuredly contradicts other Inspired by God Scriptures which teach we should NOT SIN. So is John Wrong and contradicts himself, or have you misinterpreted something John said? Please reveal the verse that YOU THINK says Christians CAN SIN.

DiscipleDave said:

Continued next post:

^i^

††† In His Holy and Precious Name, Jesus Christ †††

DiscipleDave

DiscipleDave · Mar 13, 2017

FranC said:

You do error thinking that i believe a person can never commit a sin. satan is real and he is very efficient at what he does. What i teach is not to the Christian that on occasion commits a sin. i reprove, rebuke, and exhort those who profess to be Christian and LIVES IN SIN. That is to say they continue to commit a particular sin over and over and over again without ever ceasing from it. They will pray to God that night, "God forgive me of my sin of ___________" All the while knowing full well they will knowingly and willingly do _______________ again. They will have repented a thousand times for _________ and die still doing _____________. How sorry are they if they continue to do _______________? Forgiveness is ONLY granted if a person is TRULY SORRY for a particular sin, if they continue to knowingly and willingly commit that sin over and over and over and over and over and over again, how sorry are they? THEIR NOT!!! So these continue to believe they are Heaven bound, but are not forgiven because these freely choose to live in wickedness, choose to live in unrighteousness, choose to obey the devil, which is the Lords' enemy. i do not knowingly or willingly commit any sin against my Lord Jesus Christ. But if tomorrow i commit a sin, i will repent of it, and he will forgive me. BUT if i choose to continue to do that sin over and over and over and over again, HE will NOT Forgive me, because if i were TRULY sorry for that sin, i would pray this "Father, please forgive me of ________. i will try with all my abilities to NEVER do _____________ again, Jesus help me" How many in this generation when they repent to God say to Him, "I will try to never do it again" Why? Because they don't want to pray that, they love to sin, and hold on to the doctrine that they can continue to sin and still go to Heaven. So then why stop sinning?
If you thought that your sin would prevent you from getting into Heaven, i assure you, it would be much easier for you to cease from them. But as long as you think it is not attainable, you will continue to live in sin, because hey, it's not possible to stop, right? As i said before, if i can so can all of you. Jesus doesn't ONLY help me to attain it, He is more than willing to help YOU TOO. The problem is, how many in this generation when they are tempted LOOK for Jesus to help them? Where is Jesus when satan is tempting you to commit sin, He is nowhere to be found is HE. Because if HE were present, you would not commit that sin, would you?

DiscipleDave said:

FranC · Mar 21, 2017

DiscipleDave said:

You do error thinking that i believe a person can never commit a sin. satan is real and he is very efficient at what he does. What i teach is not to the Christian that on occasion commits a sin. i reprove, rebuke, and exhort those who profess to be Christian and LIVES IN SIN. That is to say they continue to commit a particular sin over and over and over again without ever ceasing from it. They will pray to God that night, "God forgive me of my sin of ___________" All the while knowing full well they will knowingly and willingly do _______________ again. They will have repented a thousand times for _________ and die still doing _____________. How sorry are they if they continue to do _______________? Forgiveness is ONLY granted if a person is TRULY SORRY for a particular sin, if they continue to knowingly and willingly commit that sin over and over and over and over and over and over again, how sorry are they? THEIR NOT!!! So these continue to believe they are Heaven bound, but are not forgiven because these freely choose to live in wickedness, choose to live in unrighteousness, choose to obey the devil, which is the Lords' enemy. i do not knowingly or willingly commit any sin against my Lord Jesus Christ. But if tomorrow i commit a sin, i will repent of it, and he will forgive me. BUT if i choose to continue to do that sin over and over and over and over again, HE will NOT Forgive me, because if i were TRULY sorry for that sin, i would pray this "Father, please forgive me of ________. i will try with all my abilities to NEVER do _____________ again, Jesus help me" How many in this generation when they repent to God say to Him, "I will try to never do it again" Why? Because they don't want to pray that, they love to sin, and hold on to the doctrine that they can continue to sin and still go to Heaven. So then why stop sinning?
If you thought that your sin would prevent you from getting into Heaven, i assure you, it would be much easier for you to cease from them. But as long as you think it is not attainable, you will continue to live in sin, because hey, it's not possible to stop, right? As i said before, if i can so can all of you. Jesus doesn't ONLY help me to attain it, He is more than willing to help YOU TOO. The problem is, how many in this generation when they are tempted LOOK for Jesus to help them? Where is Jesus when satan is tempting you to commit sin, He is nowhere to be found is HE. Because if HE were present, you would not commit that sin, would you?

DiscipleDave said:

This is something that you believe to fit the doctrine that you believe. It starts like a parable, it is in the middle of all His Parables, it sounds like a parable. Guess what, it is a parable. But those who hold on to the doctrine that Hell exists today HAS to use these verse to back up that belief, because these are the ONLY verses they can use to back up that false doctrine.

Tell me. Do ALL Saints go up to be in Abraham's Bosom? If this were TRUE, where is that written? Also Where does Abraham go? This parable is about a person that goes to Heaven and another goes to Hell. What? people in Heaven can hear those in Hell? They can hear their torments, them begging for water and the such? There is so many things wrong with these verses if they are taken literal, it is pathetic. If you want to see all the stuff that proves it is not literal, google it, there are hundreds of sites that show it is a parable. But who are they that does not believe it is a parable, they ALL have one thing in common. They ALL believe hell exists today, and change this parable, saying it is a real event. Why do they change Scriptures? So as to fit their own belief that hell exists today.
"If what you believe contradicts even one verse in Scriptures then what you believe is wrong" God told me that one day in conversation. The belief that this Parable of the rich man and Lazarus is a literal happening contradicts other verses in Scriptures, it is not the TRUTH. But those who hold on dearly to the teaching that Hell exists today, will continue to believe it is literal, because it is the ONLY thing they can use to back up that false doctrine that they are unwilling to hear the TRUTH for.

Do you not believe this Parable is about a beggar that goes to Heaven and a rich man that goes to hell? Yes or no?

Are you now saying that they don't go to heaven, but go to be with Abraham's Bosom? Is that what you are saying? Or are you saying that Abraham is in Heaven, and that is where the Saints go to be in his bosom? Really?

You see you are quick to think it is a literal event because the rich man went to Hell, but if you were to examine the REST of the parable, you would conclude that it is indeed a parable. Because those who go to Heaven do NOT go to be in Abraham's Bosom. Jesus told this specific thing to the Jews, they Pharisees were standing there and heard this parable. Jesus said it against them. Father Abraham represents the Jewish nation. NOT Heaven. To say it is a literal event, is just plain nonsence.

Parables of Jesus Christ and how they all start:

Mat 21:28 .... . A certain man had two sons; ... . . . . (PARABLE)
Mat 21:33 .. .. There was a certain householder,... .. . .(PARABLE)
Mat 22:2 The kingdom of heaven is like unto a certain king, ...... (PARABLE)
Mar 12:1 ... .. A certain man planted a vineyard, ... .. . (PARABLE)
Luke 7:41 There was a certain creditor ... .. . . . (PARABLE)
Luke 8:5 A sower went out to sow .... . ... ..(PARABLE)
Luke 10:30 ... . .A certain man went down from Jerusalem ... .. ..(PARABLE)
Luke 12:16 .. . .The ground of a certain rich man .... .. . .(PARABLE)
Luke 13:6 ... . . A certain man had a fig tree ...... .....(PARABLE)
Luke 14:16 .. .. A certain man made a great supper....(PARABLE)
Luke 15:11 .... . A certain man had two sons: (PARABLE)
Luke 16:1 ..... There was a certain rich man, which had a steward.....(PARABLE)
Luke 16:19 There was a certain rich man, which was clothed in purple ... .. . (NOT A PARABLE?)
Luke 18:2 ... There was in a city a judge .... .. . (PARABLE)
Luke 18:10 Two men went up into the temple to pray .... . .(PARABLE)
Luke 19:12 ... .. A certain nobleman went into .... . . .(PARABLE)
Luke 20:9 ... . .. A certain man planted a vineyard .... .(PARABLE)

Starts like a Parable, sounds like a Parable, in the middle of all of His Parables to the people, and YOU say it is not a parable. Really? Why? Because you believe hell exists today, is that not right?

So if this is is a literal event as YOU teach, then when we die, the Angels take us to Abraham's bosom? Really? not to Jesus, really? You believe this is a literal event?

You go to be in Abraham's bosom, i will go where Scriptures teaches me i will go and that is to be with Jesus forever. NOT in another man's bosom.

^i^

††† In His Holy and Precious Name, Jesus Christ †††

DiscipleDave

DD
You have bitten off more than I can chew.
You have put words into my mouth.
You've stated facts as coming from ME, which I DO NOT believe.

If you care to go over the important stuff, a few at a time, I'm willing... but the way you've laid it out takes too much time for me to answer.

Hell or no hell

Banned

pronia

Guest

Senior Member

pronia

Guest

pronia

Guest

Banned

Banned

pronia

Guest

pronia

Guest

Senior Member

Senior Member

pronia

Guest

pronia

Guest

pronia

Guest

pronia

Guest

Senior Member

Banned

Senior Member

Senior Member

Banned