Hell or no hell

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DiscipleDave

DiscipleDave

Senior Member
#81
Sep 4, 2012
3,095
70
48
#81
FranC said:
DD
You have bitten off more than I can chew.
You have put words into my mouth.
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Where have i said that You said something? By me putting words into your mouth, is for me to say that you said something, Where have i done that? i have not done such a thing. i ALWAYS quote to that which i am responding to. Now you may assume that is what i have done, but reread it, and you will see the Truth. Or else reveal now, where i have put words into your mouth, which thing i have not done.

FranC said:
You've stated facts as coming from ME, which I DO NOT believe.
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Where have a stated facts as coming from YOU. Would it have been to difficult of a thing to quote the statement where i have done that? Or is it your custom to merely accuse without presenting the evidence of doing that which you are accusing?

FranC said:
If you care to go over the important stuff, a few at a time, I'm willing... but the way you've laid it out takes too much time for me to answer.
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Do you believe that the Parable of Lazarus and the Rich man is an actual event or not? My response was to PROVE that it is not, nor could be an actual event. It is not my place to convince you of anything, i merely told you the TRUTH, what you do with it is up to you. if the PROOF that it is not an actual event to much for you to comprehend, what is that to me? If you are not willing to take the time and understand the TRUTH, then you really don't have a desire to know and understand that TRUTH. What is that to me?

^i^

††† In His Holy and Precious Name, Jesus Christ †††

DiscipleDave
 
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vernonray

Guest
#82
#82
A just and righteous god would not condemn a mortal man to an immortal punishment for committing a mortal sin. A scandalous Church could tell you that if you did not belong to them and give them 10% you would burn in a lake of fire for all eternity, which i have to admit is the most brutal marketing strategy i have ever seen. Buy our product or burn in hell for eternity. brilliant, purely evil but brilliant non the less..
 
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CavemanHello

Guest
#83
#83
No holding place for souls or burning pit for same.God zaps some souls into non existence
 
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claysmithr

Guest
#84
#84
Yes, Hell is real and no joke.
 
Ahwatukee

Ahwatukee

Senior Member
#85
Mar 12, 2015
11,159
2,375
113
#85
vernonray said:
A just and righteous god would not condemn a mortal man to an immortal punishment for committing a mortal sin. A scandalous Church could tell you that if you did not belong to them and give them 10% you would burn in a lake of fire for all eternity, which i have to admit is the most brutal marketing strategy i have ever seen. Buy our product or burn in hell for eternity. brilliant, purely evil but brilliant non the less..
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Hello vernorray,

I hear this response a lot, that because of God's righteousness or his loving nature that he would not punish mankind in the lake of fire. Understand this, God is a God of love, grace and mercy, but he is also a God of justice. Once a person dies without Christ grace and mercy are no longer in affect for those individuals.

At the great white throne judgment, when all of the unrighteous who have been in Hades throughout all of history will be resurrected, they will stand before God and they will be held accountable for every sin the committed. To quote Jesus "every idle word that men shall speak, they shall give an account thereof on the day of judgment." There will be no grace or mercy mixed in with this judgment. You've heard that expression "the judge will throw the book at him?" Well, that is exactly what will happen at the great white throne judgment, which is described in Rev.20:11-15.

For all who are having faith in Yeshua as the One who provided salvation for them, He was held accountable for their sins through the shedding of His righteous blood. For those who reject Christ and die in their sins, they alone will be held accountable for their own sins; every one of them.

Grace and mercy are for the living only. Once a person dies without Christ their record is sealed. If you don't think that God does not punish the unrighteous, all you have to do is read the event of the rich man and Lazarus. The rich man was in torment in flame and will continue to be in that state until he is resurrected at the great white throne judgment, where he will go through his sentencing and then be thrown into the lake of fire. If you, like others, have resigned the event of the rich man and Lazarus as being a parable, then you have missed the message that Jesus meant to convey.
 
maxwel

maxwel

Senior Member
#86
Apr 18, 2013
9,526
2,608
113
#86
vernonray said:
A just and righteous god would not condemn a mortal man to an immortal punishment for committing a mortal sin. A scandalous Church could tell you that if you did not belong to them and give them 10% you would burn in a lake of fire for all eternity, which i have to admit is the most brutal marketing strategy i have ever seen. Buy our product or burn in hell for eternity. brilliant, purely evil but brilliant non the less..
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Your profile says you're not a believer... that poses a lot of interesting questions.



1. If you don't believe there is a God, why do you have such concern with the particular style of justice of an imaginary God... why are you here debating it?

You seem to have an odd preoccupation with the particular style of justice of an imaginary God.

Very very odd.

I don't believe in Santa Claus, and I feel ZERO compulsion to debate his particular theories of justice.

If you think God is imaginary... why so much concern about his sense of justice?



2. Do you believe there are absolute and universal standards for morality? However you answer this, it's going to lead to some logical dilemmas

- If, like most atheists, you DO NOT believe morality has absolute and universal values, then you have no way to measure whether this "justice of God" is righteous or not, because you cannot maintain, by your paradigm, that goodness or evil even exist!

- If you DO believe in absolute and universal standards for morality...
then I'd like to hear you account for WHERE exactly these universal and absolute moral standards come from, and WHAT exactly makes them absolute.



3. It is very strange that you, an unbeliever in this imaginary God, have somehow declared yourself an expert in knowing precisely how some imaginary being must necessarily act.

This is strange and illogical on a host of levels.

You're an expert on the behavior of an imaginary being which doesn't exist, and therefore can't possibly have any behavior to be an expert on... nor can you in any way guess what his thought processes or actions "might" be because he doesn't have any thought processes or actions to assess.

So that's it... you've declared yourself an expert on the necessary behavior of an imaginary being which can't possibly have any behavior to be an expert on?
Seriously?
Seriously?

Please... come up with just one way in which this is logically coherent.



4. If there is such a being as God, who is the "maximally great being" and knows all things... how could you POSSIBLY, IN ANY WAY, pretend to know all the depths of his mind and thoughts?

You would have to be God in order to do this.

For you to plumb the depth of his thoughts and reasoning, you yourself would have to be a "maximally great being", and have all knowledge of all things.

Again, your reasoning just breaks down logically.

If there is a maximally great being, who knows all things... you COULD NOT, in any way, even pretend to know the depths of his reasoning or motives.



5. What makes you contend, as a presupposition, that the act of defying an immortal being is only a "mortal crime"?

This is a huge presupposition.

You have no logical way to support this presupposition.

You just ASSERT it... with you proof of any kind.




There's more... but this should be enough to chew on for a while.



 
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maxwel

maxwel

Senior Member
#87
Apr 18, 2013
9,526
2,608
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#87
For the believers here:


I was just trying to show a few examples of how the atheist will always, necessarily, entangle himself in an entire quagmire of illogical assertions and absurdities.

Atheism is not a logical position.


I realize that among believers, there is well-intended debate about the nature of Hell, and how it relates to God's character... because the justice of God is a hard issue, emotionally, for us to deal with.


Please forgive all the typos.
: )
 
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maxwel

maxwel

Senior Member
#88
Apr 18, 2013
9,526
2,608
113
#88
Mods, this is a normal Bible Study topic,

Please move this to the Bible Discussion Forum.
 
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Elijah101

Banned
#90
Dec 11, 2016
42
0
0
#90
If God can make this world it would be idiotic to believe he couldn't make another called Hell. Hell is real and it is a separate literal place. It is no joke and a place made by God to punish the ungodly.

Elijah
 
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Terrie431

Member
#91
Jul 23, 2017
79
8
8
#91
Hi, imfinallyfree.

If I may offer my take on your post:

Repentance is a lot more than saying "sorry". An apology is nothing more than an expression of remorse. Repentance is from the heart. It is a desire to "turn away" from sin, which manifests into the physical act of turning away. It will get one into Heaven if one's motivation for it is to obey and glorify God.

I don't understand forgiveness that well. Nevertheless, God's Word commands us to forgive others so our Father in Heaven will forgive us.

Thank you for listening. :)
 
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Terrie431

Member
#92
Jul 23, 2017
79
8
8
#92
There can be no Heaven if there is no hell. If hell doesn't exist, then neither does Heaven. Because I know, without a doubt, there is a Heaven, I also know, without a doubt, there is a hell.
 
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Ugly

Guest
#93
#93
Terrie431 said:
There can be no Heaven if there is no hell. If hell doesn't exist, then neither does Heaven. Because I know, without a doubt, there is a Heaven, I also know, without a doubt, there is a hell.
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That's not scriptural. Heaven existed before hell. That thinking is more closely related to eastern thinking than biblical.
 
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Terrie431

Member
#94
Jul 23, 2017
79
8
8
#94
It doesn't matter if Heaven existed before it or that it hasn't even been created, my point was even if there was a Heaven and no hell, we wouldn't know because there'd be nothing with which to compare it. It's like not being able to know good if we had no bad. How would we know that it was called or known as "good"?

Thanks.
 
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