How should a Christian view socialism?

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Apr 10, 2019
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#61
Do you really think false worship and stoning homosexuals is the only laws of nations that are against the Bible, it kind of looked that way, when you say that’s it. Is there a nation Islamic nation I assume that stones homosexuals I don’t know you tell me, I know that band of bandits isis did it, but they were not a nation.
Brunei. to name one.

And no, I do not think those are the only laws within nations that contradict the bible. If I had not given any examples at all, you would be on me for that now. lol.

regardless, show love to your brethren, brother.
 
K

KnowMe

Guest
#62
Brunei. to name one.

And no, I do not think those are the only laws within nations that contradict the bible. If I had not given any examples at all, you would be on me for that now. lol.

regardless, show love to your brethren, brother.
you laugh as you accuse me of how I would react if you didn’t give an example, and you tell me to show love huh.

by examples isn’t always needed.
 
K

KnowMe

Guest
#63
I’ve watched your reaction to many topics, you are all over the place showing brotherly love yea ok.
 
K

KnowMe

Guest
#64
I guess it’s a good thing you found one Brunei, for if it wasn’t it would have of been false.
 

jaybird88

Senior Member
Jan 7, 2015
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#65
your exact question was:

"can you give a few examples of nations who have laws that dont contradict the bible?"

So a direct answer to you is: Canada, USA, England, Australia, New Zealand, etc...
If you meant their entire lawbook lines up perfectly with scripture, I can think of none.

If you mean simply laws within nations that are not contradictory to the bible:
Murder is illegal in every country that I named, though the legalities surrounding it differ. i.e. Murder 1,2,3, Manslaughter.
Again, theft is illegal in every country that I named.

and so on....what are you fishing for?
the point is that from the time of Jesus and before every leader has been a corrupt tyrant with a few exceptions here and there. however the exceptions dont last long at all and quickly replaced with another oppressive ruler. the laws and legislation made by these people are rarely made for the benefit of the people they are made for the benefit of the few. why should we obey these people?
 
Oct 24, 2018
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#66
*** “The problem with socialism is that you eventually run out of other people's money.” ~~Margaret Thatcher



*** “Socialism is

a philosophy of failure,

the creed of ignorance,

and the gospel or envy,

its inherent virtue is the equal sharing of misery.” — Winston Churchill



***George Santayana: “Those who cannot learn from history are doomed to repeat it.”




***The following is poem attributed to Pastor Martin Niemöller (1892–1984)

about the inactivity of German intellectuals following the Nazi rise to power. This says it best:

“First they came for the communists, and I did not speak out-- because I was not a communist;

Then they came for the socialists, and I did not speak out-- because I was not a socialist;

Then they came for the trade unionists, and I did not speak out-- because I was not a trade unionist;

Then they came for the Jews, and I did not speak out-- because I was not a Jew;

Then they came for me-- and there was no one left to speak out for me.”



*** “Christianity can survive long periods of oppression, but in the meantime, individual lives can be terribly harmed.

In Eastern Europe, hundreds of millions of human beings suffered

though a grinding half-century of Communist rule.

Lacking the wisdom and inspiration of traditional faith, generations passed through life

like hollow men passing from Communist youth leagues to Communist workers' associations

to communist pensioner schemes.

Yet one of the inescapable paradoxes of Communism is the fact that the Godless state,

which professes the virtue of materialism,

can then so completely fail to provide even the material necessities that most in the West take for granted.

Although there were rubber chickens and wooden pop guns in the market,

there was a general absence of everything else.

By the time Christmas rolled around, there was little variety of food,

and milk had disappeared from the stores.

Fresh fruit, including oranges and bananas, vanished entirely,

as did all fresh vegetables, except for an aging stock of potatoes, carrots, and turnips.

Other than some suspiciously outdated and moldy-looking sausages, meat was in short supply.

What there was, along with the potatoes, carrots, turnips, and sausages,

was the bland production of the state canneries:

jams, jellies, canned vegetables and fruits, potted meat and chicken,

and an adequate quantity of bread to be washed down with ample supplies

of locally produced plum brandy, beer, and wine.

It might seem that the state had at least provided an adequate caloric intake,

but every day I saw people of all ages,

from young women with infants cradled in one arm to old men in ragged suits,

fumbling through garbage bins for bread crusts and bones.”

- Jeffrey Folks (who lived for two years in Eastern Europe, during and shortly after the end of the Communist era)
 
Oct 24, 2018
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#67
***The Founding Fathers On Socialism Oct 28, '08 6:33 PM by Pat in www.sweetness-light.com

“To take from one, because it is thought his own industry and that of his fathers has acquired too much,

in order to spare to others, who, or whose fathers, have not exercised equal industry and skill,

is to violate arbitrarily the first principle of association,

the guarantee to everyone the free exercise of his industry and the fruits acquired by it.”

-- Thomas Jefferson, letter to Joseph Milligan, April 6, 1816

“A wise and frugal government …

shall restrain men from injuring one another,

shall leave them otherwise free to regulate their own pursuits of industry and improvement,

and shall not take from the mouth of labor the bread it has earned.

This is the sum of good government.” -- Thomas Jefferson, First Inaugural Address, March 4, 1801

“Congress has not unlimited powers to provide for the general welfare,

but only those specifically enumerated.” -- Thomas Jefferson

“The moment the idea is admitted into society that property is not as sacred as the laws of God,

and that there is not a force of law and public justice to protect it, anarchy and tyranny commence.

If ‘Thou shalt not covet’ and ‘Thou shalt not steal’ were not commandments of Heaven,

they must be made inviolable precepts in every society before it can be civilized or made free.”

-- John Adams, A Defense of the Constitutions of Government of the United States of America, 1787

“With respect to the two words ‘general welfare,’

I have always regarded them as qualified by the detail of powers connected with them.

To take them in a literal and unlimited sense

would be a metamorphosis of the Constitution into a character

which there is a host of proofs was not contemplated by its creators.”

-- James Madison in a letter to James Robertson

“In 1794, when Congress appropriated $15,000 for relief of French refugees

who fled from insurrection in San Domingo to Baltimore and Philadelphia,

James Madison stood on the floor of the House to object saying,

‘I cannot undertake to lay my finger on that article of the Constitution

which granted a right to Congress

of expending, on objects of benevolence, the money of their constituents.’”

-- James Madison, 4 Annals of Congress 179, 1794

“The government of the United States is a definite government, confined to specified objects.

It is not like the state governments, whose powers are more general.

Charity is no part of the legislative duty of the government.” -- James Madison

But maybe they were wrong and Mr. Obama is right. After all, he claims to be a Constitutional scholar.
 
Oct 12, 2012
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#69
"How should a Christian view socialism?"
(by Pastor Johan Lourens of South Africa, www.gebednetcom.simplesite.com)

Answer: Most philosophers through the centuries have believed that history is shaped by ideas, the pursuit of actual reality, or human reason. But there is one famous philosopher who instead argued that the driving factor behind all of human history is economics. Karl Marx was born to German Jewish parents in 1818 and received his doctorate at age 23. He then embarked on a mission to prove that human identity is bound up in a person’s work and that economic systems totally control a person. Arguing that it is by his labor that mankind survives, Marx believed that human communities are created by the division of labor.

Marx studied history and concluded that society had for hundreds of years been based on agriculture. But the Industrial Revolution changed all that, in Marx’s mind, because those who had freely worked for themselves were now forced by economics to work in factories instead. This, Marx felt, stripped away their dignity and identity because their labor defined who they were, and now they were reduced to mere slaves controlled by a powerful taskmaster. This perspective meant that the economics of capitalism was the natural enemy of Marx.

Marx surmised that capitalism emphasized private property and, therefore, reduced ownership to the privileged few. Two separate “communities” emerged in Marx’s mind: the business owners, or the bourgeoisie; and the working class, or the proletariat. According to Marx, the bourgeoisie use and exploit the proletariat with the result that one person’s gain is another person’s loss. Moreover, Marx believed that the business owners influence the lawmakers to ensure their interests are defended over the workers’ loss of dignity and rights. Last, Marx felt that religion is the “opiate of the masses” which the rich use to manipulate the working class; the proletariat is promised rewards in heaven one day if they keep working diligently where God has placed them (subservient to the bourgeoisie).

In the earthly utopia Marx envisioned, the people collectively own everything and all work for the common good of mankind. Marx’s goal was to end the ownership of private property through the state’s ownership of all means of economic production. Once private property was abolished, Marx felt that a person’s identity would be elevated and the wall that capitalism supposedly constructed between the owners and working class would be shattered. Everyone would value one another and work together for a shared purpose.

There are at least four errors in Marx’s thinking. First, his assertion that another person’s gain must come at another person’s expense is a myth; the structure of capitalism leaves plenty of room for all to raise their standard of living through innovation and competition. It is perfectly feasible for multiple parties to compete and do well in a market of consumers who want their goods and services.

Second, Marx was wrong in his belief that the value of a product is based on the amount of labor that is put into it. The quality of a good or service simply cannot be determined by the amount of effort a laborer expends. For example, a master carpenter can more quickly and beautifully make a piece of furniture than an unskilled craftsmen can, and therefore his work will be valued far more (and correctly so) in an economic system such as capitalism.

Third, Marx’s theory necessitates a government that is free from corruption and negates the possibility of elitism within its ranks. If history has shown anything, it is that power corrupts fallen mankind, and absolute power corrupts absolutely. A nation or government may kill the idea of God, but someone will take God’s place. That someone is most often an individual or group who begins to rule over the population and seeks to maintain their privileged position at all costs.

Fourth and most importantly, Marx was wrong that a person’s identity is bound up in the work that he does. Although secular society certainly forces this belief on nearly everyone, the Bible says that all have equal worth because all are created in the image of the eternal God. That is where true, intrinsic human value lies.

Was Marx right? Is economics the catalyst that drives human history? No, what directs human history is the Creator of the universe who controls everything, including the rise and fall of every nation. In addition, God also controls who is put in charge of each nation, as Scripture says, “The Most High is ruler over the realm of mankind, and bestows it on whom He wishes and sets over it the lowliest of men” (Daniel 4:17). Further, it is God who gives a person skill at labor and the wealth that comes from it, not the government: “Here is what I have seen to be good and fitting: to eat, to drink and enjoy oneself in all one’s labor in which he toils under the sun during the few years of his life which God has given him; for this is his reward. Furthermore, as for every man to whom God has given riches and wealth, He has also empowered him to eat from them and to receive his reward and rejoice in his labor; this is the gift of God” (Ecclesiastes 5:18–19).


Johan & Esther Lourens.
Missionaries
[email protected]
Website: www.gebednetcom.simplesite.com
P.O.Box 144, Strand, 7139.
078 674 6125.
Through the eyes of a double barrel 12 Gage!🤕
 

jaybird88

Senior Member
Jan 7, 2015
5,507
482
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#71
Is that what is indicated in the Bible? Is that Christ-likeness according to you? If so, you are in trouble with God even more than the Socialists.
when it comes to socialism one has to ignore the bible being as the Apostles practiced it. what you dont find is every man for himself which is capitalism.
 
Oct 24, 2018
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#72
when it comes to socialism one has to ignore the bible being as the Apostles practiced it. what you dont find is every man for himself which is capitalism.
You said a lie. Reread the essay by Johan. Most of the first Christians were in Jerusalem for the Pentecost event from different countries. It was not a government thing at all the Jerusalemites to sell what they had to help the visitors say longer for more teaching after Peter's famous sermon. And your definition of capitalism is completely wrong. Do some Internet research.
 
G

GtrPkr

Guest
#73
Wow..... I'm almost afraid to respond to this. I can't be the only Christian here that sees it....

"How should a Christian view socialism?"

The premise here seems to be that a Christian actually has a choice. Every form of government on the face of this planet throughout history has followed one simple pattern, "The many subjugated by the few who pledge fealty to one." It doesn't matter what you name it, all governments are the same. This is one of the very first lessons we're taught in the Bible. There are only two kinds of people in the world; Those who take inventory of all that God has provided freely and make themselves good stewards of it... and those who claim ownership of what God has provided for the sake of their own profit... Cain and Abel. Only men subjugate and enslave one another for their own profit, this is not God's will or wisdom. In fact, the way we have always chosen to govern ourselves in the name of monitary prosperity is the proof that we always turn away from God. Greed... The love of money... is the root of all evil.

Here's a question... When Christ God does return and sets up His kingdom in Israel, what form of government will THAT be? Do you believe there will be any money there?
 

jaybird88

Senior Member
Jan 7, 2015
5,507
482
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#74
You said a lie. Reread the essay by Johan. Most of the first Christians were in Jerusalem for the Pentecost event from different countries. It was not a government thing at all the Jerusalemites to sell what they had to help the visitors say longer for more teaching after Peter's famous sermon. And your definition of capitalism is completely wrong. Do some Internet research.
is Johan a prophet of the Most High, if not then its just one mans opinion and man has been wrong more times than we can count.
it makes little difference if the early Christians were a government, thats just a poor way of trying to divert ones attention from their actions and their actions were in line with socialism.
the Essenes ( John the baptist) also practiced socialism.
the mt carmel community, most likely Essene, practiced it.
there are also examples of social programs in the Hebrew bible. the Jews were commanded to take care of the poor, the travelers, etc.

if i followed the philosophy of "mine, mine, mine" i wouldnt want to hear it either.
 

jaybird88

Senior Member
Jan 7, 2015
5,507
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#75
when it comes to socialism one has to ignore the bible being as the Apostles practiced it. what you dont find is every man for himself which is capitalism.
edit - i think i made a mistake with this post, there are IMO examples of capitalism in the bible, the economics of rome (the ones that killed Jesus) would have been very close. they destroyed anything and everything in the name of greed, wealth, power and influence. very similar to the US today, a ruling class made up of one percent of the population that paid no tax, always expanding the empire at the expense of the masses who never benefited from any conquest. the US is even called the "new rome".
 
U

UnderGrace

Guest
#76
when it comes to socialism one has to ignore the bible being as the Apostles practiced it. what you dont find is every man for himself which is capitalism.
Hardly capitalism....smh!!
 
U

UnderGrace

Guest
#77
edit - i think i made a mistake with this post, there are IMO examples of capitalism in the bible, the economics of rome (the ones that killed Jesus) would have been very close. they destroyed anything and everything in the name of greed, wealth, power and influence. very similar to the US today, a ruling class made up of one percent of the population that paid no tax, always expanding the empire at the expense of the masses who never benefited from any conquest. the US is even called the "new rome".
The problems with Rome had nothing to do with a free market economy, same with the USA....that is just silly.:rolleyes:
 

calibob

Sinner saved by grace
May 29, 2018
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#79
Laisse fair economics? Like that antichrist Ayn Rand supported? It will never get my vote.
Democracy;
is “a form of government in which the supreme power is vested in the people and exercised directly by them or by their elected agents under a free electoral system.” The Greek demokratia is derived from demos, “common people,” and kratos, “strength.”


Basically, in a democracy the head of state is usually a president and the supreme power rests in the body of citizens entitled to vote (which is then exercised by representatives chosen directly or indirectly by them). Capitalism is part of democracies (not communist or socialist countries). The community as a whole does not own all of the property and wealth in a democracy. (Co, dictionary.com)

You don't have to be a so called liberal to believe in the power of 1 person 1 vote or to believe our chosen leaders are our servant's. "We the people" tell them what to do. This was the original concept of our nation I've been told but traitors like Hamilton feared the poor would take over. Burr was right.

Burr vs Hamilton.jpg