How should a Christian view socialism?
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J
the point is that from the time of Jesus and before every leader has been a corrupt tyrant with a few exceptions here and there. however the exceptions dont last long at all and quickly replaced with another oppressive ruler. the laws and legislation made by these people are rarely made for the benefit of the people they are made for the benefit of the few. why should we obey these people?
*** “The problem with socialism is that you eventually run out of other people's money.” ~~Margaret Thatcher
*** “Socialism is
a philosophy of failure,
the creed of ignorance,
and the gospel or envy,
its inherent virtue is the equal sharing of misery.” — Winston Churchill
***George Santayana: “Those who cannot learn from history are doomed to repeat it.”
***The following is poem attributed to Pastor Martin Niemöller (1892–1984)
about the inactivity of German intellectuals following the Nazi rise to power. This says it best:
“First they came for the communists, and I did not speak out-- because I was not a communist;
Then they came for the socialists, and I did not speak out-- because I was not a socialist;
Then they came for the trade unionists, and I did not speak out-- because I was not a trade unionist;
Then they came for the Jews, and I did not speak out-- because I was not a Jew;
Then they came for me-- and there was no one left to speak out for me.”
*** “Christianity can survive long periods of oppression, but in the meantime, individual lives can be terribly harmed.
In Eastern Europe, hundreds of millions of human beings suffered
though a grinding half-century of Communist rule.
Lacking the wisdom and inspiration of traditional faith, generations passed through life
like hollow men passing from Communist youth leagues to Communist workers' associations
to communist pensioner schemes.
Yet one of the inescapable paradoxes of Communism is the fact that the Godless state,
which professes the virtue of materialism,
can then so completely fail to provide even the material necessities that most in the West take for granted.
Although there were rubber chickens and wooden pop guns in the market,
there was a general absence of everything else.
By the time Christmas rolled around, there was little variety of food,
and milk had disappeared from the stores.
Fresh fruit, including oranges and bananas, vanished entirely,
as did all fresh vegetables, except for an aging stock of potatoes, carrots, and turnips.
Other than some suspiciously outdated and moldy-looking sausages, meat was in short supply.
What there was, along with the potatoes, carrots, turnips, and sausages,
was the bland production of the state canneries:
jams, jellies, canned vegetables and fruits, potted meat and chicken,
and an adequate quantity of bread to be washed down with ample supplies
of locally produced plum brandy, beer, and wine.
It might seem that the state had at least provided an adequate caloric intake,
but every day I saw people of all ages,
from young women with infants cradled in one arm to old men in ragged suits,
fumbling through garbage bins for bread crusts and bones.”
- Jeffrey Folks (who lived for two years in Eastern Europe, during and shortly after the end of the Communist era)
*** “Socialism is
a philosophy of failure,
the creed of ignorance,
and the gospel or envy,
its inherent virtue is the equal sharing of misery.” — Winston Churchill
***George Santayana: “Those who cannot learn from history are doomed to repeat it.”
***The following is poem attributed to Pastor Martin Niemöller (1892–1984)
about the inactivity of German intellectuals following the Nazi rise to power. This says it best:
“First they came for the communists, and I did not speak out-- because I was not a communist;
Then they came for the socialists, and I did not speak out-- because I was not a socialist;
Then they came for the trade unionists, and I did not speak out-- because I was not a trade unionist;
Then they came for the Jews, and I did not speak out-- because I was not a Jew;
Then they came for me-- and there was no one left to speak out for me.”
*** “Christianity can survive long periods of oppression, but in the meantime, individual lives can be terribly harmed.
In Eastern Europe, hundreds of millions of human beings suffered
though a grinding half-century of Communist rule.
Lacking the wisdom and inspiration of traditional faith, generations passed through life
like hollow men passing from Communist youth leagues to Communist workers' associations
to communist pensioner schemes.
Yet one of the inescapable paradoxes of Communism is the fact that the Godless state,
which professes the virtue of materialism,
can then so completely fail to provide even the material necessities that most in the West take for granted.
Although there were rubber chickens and wooden pop guns in the market,
there was a general absence of everything else.
By the time Christmas rolled around, there was little variety of food,
and milk had disappeared from the stores.
Fresh fruit, including oranges and bananas, vanished entirely,
as did all fresh vegetables, except for an aging stock of potatoes, carrots, and turnips.
Other than some suspiciously outdated and moldy-looking sausages, meat was in short supply.
What there was, along with the potatoes, carrots, turnips, and sausages,
was the bland production of the state canneries:
jams, jellies, canned vegetables and fruits, potted meat and chicken,
and an adequate quantity of bread to be washed down with ample supplies
of locally produced plum brandy, beer, and wine.
It might seem that the state had at least provided an adequate caloric intake,
but every day I saw people of all ages,
from young women with infants cradled in one arm to old men in ragged suits,
fumbling through garbage bins for bread crusts and bones.”
- Jeffrey Folks (who lived for two years in Eastern Europe, during and shortly after the end of the Communist era)
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***The Founding Fathers On Socialism Oct 28, '08 6:33 PM by Pat in www.sweetness-light.com
“To take from one, because it is thought his own industry and that of his fathers has acquired too much,
in order to spare to others, who, or whose fathers, have not exercised equal industry and skill,
is to violate arbitrarily the first principle of association,
the guarantee to everyone the free exercise of his industry and the fruits acquired by it.”
-- Thomas Jefferson, letter to Joseph Milligan, April 6, 1816
“A wise and frugal government …
shall restrain men from injuring one another,
shall leave them otherwise free to regulate their own pursuits of industry and improvement,
and shall not take from the mouth of labor the bread it has earned.
This is the sum of good government.” -- Thomas Jefferson, First Inaugural Address, March 4, 1801
“Congress has not unlimited powers to provide for the general welfare,
but only those specifically enumerated.” -- Thomas Jefferson
“The moment the idea is admitted into society that property is not as sacred as the laws of God,
and that there is not a force of law and public justice to protect it, anarchy and tyranny commence.
If ‘Thou shalt not covet’ and ‘Thou shalt not steal’ were not commandments of Heaven,
they must be made inviolable precepts in every society before it can be civilized or made free.”
-- John Adams, A Defense of the Constitutions of Government of the United States of America, 1787
“With respect to the two words ‘general welfare,’
I have always regarded them as qualified by the detail of powers connected with them.
To take them in a literal and unlimited sense
would be a metamorphosis of the Constitution into a character
which there is a host of proofs was not contemplated by its creators.”
-- James Madison in a letter to James Robertson
“In 1794, when Congress appropriated $15,000 for relief of French refugees
who fled from insurrection in San Domingo to Baltimore and Philadelphia,
James Madison stood on the floor of the House to object saying,
‘I cannot undertake to lay my finger on that article of the Constitution
which granted a right to Congress
of expending, on objects of benevolence, the money of their constituents.’”
-- James Madison, 4 Annals of Congress 179, 1794
“The government of the United States is a definite government, confined to specified objects.
It is not like the state governments, whose powers are more general.
Charity is no part of the legislative duty of the government.” -- James Madison
But maybe they were wrong and Mr. Obama is right. After all, he claims to be a Constitutional scholar.
“To take from one, because it is thought his own industry and that of his fathers has acquired too much,
in order to spare to others, who, or whose fathers, have not exercised equal industry and skill,
is to violate arbitrarily the first principle of association,
the guarantee to everyone the free exercise of his industry and the fruits acquired by it.”
-- Thomas Jefferson, letter to Joseph Milligan, April 6, 1816
“A wise and frugal government …
shall restrain men from injuring one another,
shall leave them otherwise free to regulate their own pursuits of industry and improvement,
and shall not take from the mouth of labor the bread it has earned.
This is the sum of good government.” -- Thomas Jefferson, First Inaugural Address, March 4, 1801
“Congress has not unlimited powers to provide for the general welfare,
but only those specifically enumerated.” -- Thomas Jefferson
“The moment the idea is admitted into society that property is not as sacred as the laws of God,
and that there is not a force of law and public justice to protect it, anarchy and tyranny commence.
If ‘Thou shalt not covet’ and ‘Thou shalt not steal’ were not commandments of Heaven,
they must be made inviolable precepts in every society before it can be civilized or made free.”
-- John Adams, A Defense of the Constitutions of Government of the United States of America, 1787
“With respect to the two words ‘general welfare,’
I have always regarded them as qualified by the detail of powers connected with them.
To take them in a literal and unlimited sense
would be a metamorphosis of the Constitution into a character
which there is a host of proofs was not contemplated by its creators.”
-- James Madison in a letter to James Robertson
“In 1794, when Congress appropriated $15,000 for relief of French refugees
who fled from insurrection in San Domingo to Baltimore and Philadelphia,
James Madison stood on the floor of the House to object saying,
‘I cannot undertake to lay my finger on that article of the Constitution
which granted a right to Congress
of expending, on objects of benevolence, the money of their constituents.’”
-- James Madison, 4 Annals of Congress 179, 1794
“The government of the United States is a definite government, confined to specified objects.
It is not like the state governments, whose powers are more general.
Charity is no part of the legislative duty of the government.” -- James Madison
But maybe they were wrong and Mr. Obama is right. After all, he claims to be a Constitutional scholar.
You said a lie. Reread the essay by Johan. Most of the first Christians were in Jerusalem for the Pentecost event from different countries. It was not a government thing at all the Jerusalemites to sell what they had to help the visitors say longer for more teaching after Peter's famous sermon. And your definition of capitalism is completely wrong. Do some Internet research.
G
Wow..... I'm almost afraid to respond to this. I can't be the only Christian here that sees it....
"How should a Christian view socialism?"
The premise here seems to be that a Christian actually has a choice. Every form of government on the face of this planet throughout history has followed one simple pattern, "The many subjugated by the few who pledge fealty to one." It doesn't matter what you name it, all governments are the same. This is one of the very first lessons we're taught in the Bible. There are only two kinds of people in the world; Those who take inventory of all that God has provided freely and make themselves good stewards of it... and those who claim ownership of what God has provided for the sake of their own profit... Cain and Abel. Only men subjugate and enslave one another for their own profit, this is not God's will or wisdom. In fact, the way we have always chosen to govern ourselves in the name of monitary prosperity is the proof that we always turn away from God. Greed... The love of money... is the root of all evil.
Here's a question... When Christ God does return and sets up His kingdom in Israel, what form of government will THAT be? Do you believe there will be any money there?
"How should a Christian view socialism?"
The premise here seems to be that a Christian actually has a choice. Every form of government on the face of this planet throughout history has followed one simple pattern, "The many subjugated by the few who pledge fealty to one." It doesn't matter what you name it, all governments are the same. This is one of the very first lessons we're taught in the Bible. There are only two kinds of people in the world; Those who take inventory of all that God has provided freely and make themselves good stewards of it... and those who claim ownership of what God has provided for the sake of their own profit... Cain and Abel. Only men subjugate and enslave one another for their own profit, this is not God's will or wisdom. In fact, the way we have always chosen to govern ourselves in the name of monitary prosperity is the proof that we always turn away from God. Greed... The love of money... is the root of all evil.
Here's a question... When Christ God does return and sets up His kingdom in Israel, what form of government will THAT be? Do you believe there will be any money there?
J
is Johan a prophet of the Most High, if not then its just one mans opinion and man has been wrong more times than we can count.
it makes little difference if the early Christians were a government, thats just a poor way of trying to divert ones attention from their actions and their actions were in line with socialism.
the Essenes ( John the baptist) also practiced socialism.
the mt carmel community, most likely Essene, practiced it.
there are also examples of social programs in the Hebrew bible. the Jews were commanded to take care of the poor, the travelers, etc.
if i followed the philosophy of "mine, mine, mine" i wouldnt want to hear it either.
it makes little difference if the early Christians were a government, thats just a poor way of trying to divert ones attention from their actions and their actions were in line with socialism.
the Essenes ( John the baptist) also practiced socialism.
the mt carmel community, most likely Essene, practiced it.
there are also examples of social programs in the Hebrew bible. the Jews were commanded to take care of the poor, the travelers, etc.
if i followed the philosophy of "mine, mine, mine" i wouldnt want to hear it either.
J
edit - i think i made a mistake with this post, there are IMO examples of capitalism in the bible, the economics of rome (the ones that killed Jesus) would have been very close. they destroyed anything and everything in the name of greed, wealth, power and influence. very similar to the US today, a ruling class made up of one percent of the population that paid no tax, always expanding the empire at the expense of the masses who never benefited from any conquest. the US is even called the "new rome".
Laisse fair economics? Like that antichrist Ayn Rand supported? It will never get my vote.
Democracy;
is “a form of government in which the supreme power is vested in the people and exercised directly by them or by their elected agents under a free electoral system.” The Greek demokratia is derived from demos, “common people,” and kratos, “strength.”
Basically, in a democracy the head of state is usually a president and the supreme power rests in the body of citizens entitled to vote (which is then exercised by representatives chosen directly or indirectly by them). Capitalism is part of democracies (not communist or socialist countries). The community as a whole does not own all of the property and wealth in a democracy. (Co, dictionary.com)
You don't have to be a so called liberal to believe in the power of 1 person 1 vote or to believe our chosen leaders are our servant's. "We the people" tell them what to do. This was the original concept of our nation I've been told but traitors like Hamilton feared the poor would take over. Burr was right.
Democracy;
is “a form of government in which the supreme power is vested in the people and exercised directly by them or by their elected agents under a free electoral system.” The Greek demokratia is derived from demos, “common people,” and kratos, “strength.”
Basically, in a democracy the head of state is usually a president and the supreme power rests in the body of citizens entitled to vote (which is then exercised by representatives chosen directly or indirectly by them). Capitalism is part of democracies (not communist or socialist countries). The community as a whole does not own all of the property and wealth in a democracy. (Co, dictionary.com)
You don't have to be a so called liberal to believe in the power of 1 person 1 vote or to believe our chosen leaders are our servant's. "We the people" tell them what to do. This was the original concept of our nation I've been told but traitors like Hamilton feared the poor would take over. Burr was right.
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