If the Rapture is true, just who are the saints beheaded by the Antichrist?

  • Christian Chat is a moderated online Christian community allowing Christians around the world to fellowship with each other in real time chat via webcam, voice, and text, with the Christian Chat app. You can also start or participate in a Bible-based discussion here in the Christian Chat Forums, where members can also share with each other their own videos, pictures, or favorite Christian music.

    If you are a Christian and need encouragement and fellowship, we're here for you! If you are not a Christian but interested in knowing more about Jesus our Lord, you're also welcome! Want to know what the Bible says, and how you can apply it to your life? Join us!

    To make new Christian friends now around the world, click here to join Christian Chat.

GaryA

Truth, Honesty, Love, Courage
Aug 10, 2019
9,793
4,298
113
mywebsite.us
And, btw, "Strong's" is not the "end all be all" of "definitions"... meaning, if one looks around at SEVERAL lexicons, you can gather more insight. "Strong's" alone is not equivalent to "the Bible," in other words... so why the fuss?
No - Strongs is not the Bible. And, you will never hear/see me suggest that it is. However, I do believe that it is the most trustworthy source available - for several reasons...
 

TheDivineWatermark

Well-known member
Aug 3, 2018
10,874
2,111
113
I have an actual Strong's Exhaustive Concordance [physical] BOOK right here in front of me ---- and, what is written on that web page is not the same as what is written in my BOOK.

I trust the book more than the web page.
My [last] point was: "Strong's" is not the ONLY "source" [source material] quoted at that LINK I had provided (BibleHub).



[that's why I said, you have to actually LOOK at what is at the LINK I provided and SEE WHAT's THERE]
 

GaryA

Truth, Honesty, Love, Courage
Aug 10, 2019
9,793
4,298
113
mywebsite.us
According to the copyright statement at the front of my book - which allows for "brief quotations" - I believe the following is "in good faith" of the intent of the statement.

646. <greek word> apostasia, ap-os-tas-ee-ah; fem. of the same as 647; deflection from truth (prop. the state) ["apostacy"]:-falling away, forsake.

(I did not "go all out" and put greek letters, etc. because of my SLOW computer...)

I am not going to take the time and make the effort to copy the full listing of the other word entries (such as 647); however, if you look them up (647, 868, 575, 2476) in an actual [real] Strong's Concordance - AND - you don't do cut-and-paste "mincing" of words and meanings - you should discover that the meaning of the [word 646] is quite closely akin to what is written in the above [word 646] definition.

@TheDivineWatermark - you are doing cut-and-paste "mincing" of words and meanings.

You have to take into account what the words meant to those who originally wrote them.

You always have to be careful when crossing "the 'derivation/derivative' boundary" of word definitions.

You have to understand properly how a word was derived from one or more other words.

Going "multiple-reference-levels deep" and choosing a word that fits how you want it to be defined doesn't work.
 

GaryA

Truth, Honesty, Love, Courage
Aug 10, 2019
9,793
4,298
113
mywebsite.us
My [last] point was: "Strong's" is not the ONLY "source" [source material] quoted at that LINK I had provided (BibleHub).



[that's why I said, you have to actually LOOK at what is at the LINK I provided and SEE WHAT's THERE]
Yes - I saw them all. And - all of them "defined" the Strong's 646 word (They implied: "This is the definition of Strong's 646.") - and, none of them actually matched the Strong's 646 word - as written in an actual Strong's Concordance.

They all "claimed the name" of Strong - yet modified his original definition [enough] to change the meaning - which then no longer properly represented Strong's definitions.

Do you not find anything wrong with that?

They should not use the name of Strong (referring to Strong's definitions); instead, they should [simply] use their own name - and be honest:

"This is how I define these words."

They should not say:

"This is how Strong defines these words."

- and not give the actual Strong's definition.

They are using "the trusted name of Strong" (for having the most trusted definitions available) while misrepresenting Strong's definitions.

My [last] point was: "Strong's" is not the ONLY "source" [source material] quoted at that LINK ...
They did not quote Strong's definitions; instead, they provided their own definition in his name.

(And, that is my point.)
 

TheDivineWatermark

Well-known member
Aug 3, 2018
10,874
2,111
113
[...]which then no longer properly represented Strong's definitions.

Do you not find anything wrong with that?
I don't find there (at that LINK I provided to BibleHub) that *everything* THERE is solely from "STRONG'S".

The part *I* quoted from... is under the [*separate*] HEADING OF "HELPS Word-studies" which I believe is an entirely DISTINCT "source"

(and BibleHub isn't claiming that EVERYTHING on that PAGE is sourced from "Strong's"... you are just incorrectly assuming that).



The "HEADINGS" (labeled fairly clearly) distinguish the "sources".



Hope that helps. = )





____________

[and in ADDITION to that BibleHub link, I had provided the "Liddell and Scott Greek-English Lexicon (1889)" also--different link altogether]
 

TheDivineWatermark

Well-known member
Aug 3, 2018
10,874
2,111
113
Likewise, it is eisegesis to INJECT "from the earth" into this word.
Which I have repeatedly stated [the word MEANS] "DEPARTURE" / "A STANDING away-from [away-from a previous STANDING]"... and that it is the CONTEXT that determines JUST "WHAT KIND" of "departure" is MEANT (in any given context),... whether:

--"a departure FROM MOSES" (Acts 21:21)

--"the departing of a boat from a dock" (spatial/geographical departure--used in that same era!)

--"the departing of a fever (same as above)

--a departure from some kind of civil/governance-type issue (as in, a revolt or rebellion, etc)

--"THE Departure" (one ALREADY referred to in the context [one of the PURPOSES of "the definite article ('THE'), to point BACK to something PREVIOUSLY referred to in the text]; and one ALREADY known unto the recipients of the letter... which Paul had written about in NEARLY EVERY CHPT of his FIRST EPISTLE--and not MERELY/ONLY in the ONE VERSE 1Th4:17!! But MULTIPLE TIMES, using a VARIETY OF TERMS... but NOT ONCE mentioning "[a departure] FROM SOME 'FAITH issue'"!)

The CONTEXT is indeed "OUR RAPTURE" [using different wording in both 2Th2:1 here as well as v.3b--our word under discussion--but these are not the ONLY references [these 3 verses alone, NO!], there are LOTS MORE references TO THIS EVENT in his two epistles. This is one of the FUNCTIONS OF "the definite article ['the']" used with this word, where it isn't ordinarily necessary with this Greek word... our job is to ask "WHY" ("WHY" is it being used HERE?!... and in basically the SAME SENTENCE as the Subject of VERSE 1!)])
 

GaryA

Truth, Honesty, Love, Courage
Aug 10, 2019
9,793
4,298
113
mywebsite.us
Which I have repeatedly stated [the word MEANS] "DEPARTURE" / "A STANDING away-from [away-from a previous STANDING]"... and that it is the CONTEXT that determines JUST "WHAT KIND" of "departure" is MEANT (in any given context),...
Okay - sorry if I assumed you were trying to attach it to the word directly.

Honestly - sometimes I just 'skim' your posts if I don't really feel like "interpreting your syntax"... (hahaha)

I do a similar thing myself - to try to make my intent more explicitly known without having to write so many more words/paragraphs/pages/dissertations/etc. - so, I understand why you do that type of thing too.
 

Jackson123

Senior Member
Feb 6, 2014
11,769
1,371
113
Verse 1 = Rapture [IN THE AIR]... Jesus isn't coming TO THE EARTH, at that point, but to "the meeting of the Lord IN THE AIR" (wher WE will be "CAUGHT UP/-AWAY"... "UNTO HIM" *there* (no one else will be... other ppl will proceed to experience "the DOTL time-period" with its "man of sin" IN HIS TIME, in the "IN THE NIGHT" TIME-PERIOD/ASPECT)
V1 is not one item.

It is 2 item
1 Concerning the coming of our Lord Jesus Christ and our being gathered to him,

Second coming and rapture.
 

Jackson123

Senior Member
Feb 6, 2014
11,769
1,371
113
--"a departure FROM MOSES" (Acts 21:21)
Act
21 And they are informed of thee, that thou teachest all the Jews which are among the Gentiles to forsake Moses, saying that they ought not to circumcise their children, neither to walk after the customs.

Read full chapter

Forsake>departure from Moses

Figurative.

Departure from the Moses teaching

3 Let no man deceive you by any means: for that day shall not come, except there come a falling away first, and that man of sin be revealed, the son of perdition;

Falling away>apostasy> departure from the teaching of Jesus

Consistense with verse 4

4 Who opposeth and exalteth himself above all that is called God, or that is worshipped; so that he as God sitteth in the temple of God, shewing himself that he is God.
 

Jackson123

Senior Member
Feb 6, 2014
11,769
1,371
113
Never in the bible Paul say apostasy mean rapture.

Apostasy in Christianity is the rejection of Christianity by someone who formerly was a Christian or who wishes to administratively be removed from a formal registry of church members. The term apostasy comes from the Greek word apostasia ("ἀποστασία") meaning "defection", "departure", "revolt" or "rebellion". It has been described as "a willful falling away from, or rebellion against, Christianity. Apostasy is the rejection of Christ by one who has been a Christian...."[2] "Apostasy is a theological category describing those who have voluntarily and consciously abandoned their faith in the God of the covenant, who manifests himself most completely in Jesus Christ."[3] "Apostasy is the antonym of conversion; it is deconversion."[1]

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Apostasy_in_Christianity#Biblical_teaching
 

GaryA

Truth, Honesty, Love, Courage
Aug 10, 2019
9,793
4,298
113
mywebsite.us
You mean in the same time?
I mean - the 'rapture' will be the first thing to occur at the Second Coming:

1) Christ appears.
2) Resurrection and Rapture of the saints.
3) Wrath of God "poured out" upon the earth - by Christ Himself.
4) Christ sets up His kingdom on earth.
 

Lisamn

Active member
Dec 29, 2020
795
229
43
I argued with a friend yesterday who claimed that the Rapture is going to happen. I asked her where it was in the Bible and she said that it's not in the Bible but it's true. The pastor at bible study taught that we don't have to worry about anything because we're going to be raptured out.

If the Rapture is true then just who are the saints whoa re beheaded for their faith?

And unless you didn't know this - our government ordered a number of guillotines and so did Canada. In fact Canada is constructing concentration-style camps.
The rapture is true..

‭‭1 Thessalonians‬ ‭4:13-17‬ ‭
But we do not want you to be uninformed, brethren, about those who are asleep, so that you will not grieve as do the rest who have no hope. For if we believe that Jesus died and rose again, even so God will bring with Him those who have fallen asleep in Jesus. For this we say to you by the word of the Lord, that we who are alive and remain until the coming of the Lord, will not precede those who have fallen asleep. For the Lord Himself will descend from heaven with a shout, with the voice of the archangel and with the trumpet of God, and the dead in Christ will rise first. Then we who are alive and remain will be caught up together with them in the clouds to meet the Lord in the air, and so we shall always be with the Lord.

The timing is what is debated. I think the rapture happens before God’s wrath and not pre trib.
‭‭1 Thessalonians‬ ‭5:9‬ ‭
For God has not destined us for wrath, but for obtaining salvation through our Lord Jesus Christ
It doesn’t happen until the apostasy and the man of lawlessness...the antichrist is revealed..
‭‭2 Thessalonians‬ ‭2:3‬ ‭
Let no one in any way deceive you, for it will not come unless the apostasy comes first, and the man of lawlessness is revealed, the son of destruction.​

And the Antichrist isn’t revealed until the middle of the tribulation..
Daniel‬ ‭9:27‬ ‭
And he will make a firm covenant with the many for one week, but in the middle of the week he will put a stop to sacrifice and grain offering; and on the wing of abominations will come one who makes desolate, even until a complete destruction, one that is decreed, is poured out on the one who makes desolate.
‭‭​
 

BenjaminN

Well-known member
Oct 7, 2020
1,504
307
83
2 Thessalonians 2 (New King James Version)

1... concerning the coming of our Lord Jesus Christ and our gathering together to Him, ... 3Let no one deceive you by any means; for that Day will not come unless ... the man of sin is revealed, the son of perdition, 4who opposes and exalts himself above all that is called God or that is worshiped, so that he sits [c]as God in the temple of God, showing himself that he is God.


2 Thessalonians 2 (New King James Version)

1Now, brethren, concerning the coming of our Lord Jesus Christ and our gathering together to Him, we ask you, 2not to be soon shaken in mind or troubled, either by spirit or by word or by letter, as if from us, as though the day of [a]Christ had come. 3Let no one deceive you by any means; for that Day will not come unless the falling away comes first, and the man of sin is revealed, the son of perdition, 4who opposes and exalts himself above all that is called God or that is worshiped, so that he sits [c]as God in the temple of God, showing himself that he is God.
 

BenjaminN

Well-known member
Oct 7, 2020
1,504
307
83
1 John 2 (New King James Version)

4He who says, “I know Him,” and does not keep His commandments, is a liar, and the truth is not in him.
 

EnglishChick

Well-known member
Apr 20, 2021
673
349
63
42
England UK
I argued with a friend yesterday who claimed that the Rapture is going to happen. I asked her where it was in the Bible and she said that it's not in the Bible but it's true. The pastor at bible study taught that we don't have to worry about anything because we're going to be raptured out.

If the Rapture is true then just who are the saints whoa re beheaded for their faith?

And unless you didn't know this - our government ordered a number of guillotines and so did Canada. In fact Canada is constructing concentration-style camps.
Those who don't take the mark will be beheaded
 
Aug 16, 2020
282
55
28
Central Florida, USA
I argued with a friend yesterday who claimed that the Rapture is going to happen. I asked her where it was in the Bible and she said that it's not in the Bible but it's true. The pastor at bible study taught that we don't have to worry about anything because we're going to be raptured out.

If the Rapture is true then just who are the saints whoa re beheaded for their faith?

And unless you didn't know this - our government ordered a number of guillotines and so did Canada. In fact Canada is constructing concentration-style camps.
The question is rhetorical and is therefore invalid before being answered.

It begins by assuming the Roman Catholic doctrine of the rapture is true. It isn't.

Formulated in the late 1500's by Jesuit priest Francisco Ribera, the rapture as well as many other deliberate misrepresentations of End Times prophecy was meant to deter Protestants from an accurate appraisal of the Bible. A Vatican representation is substituted which is based on the idea that no prophecy is fulfilled until Jesus makes His second advent. The modern church now marches in lock-step with Vatican ideology and makes no effort whatsoever to discern Biblical accuracy. Instead the same dogma is reiterated ad nauseam while brain dead protestants sit calmly by nodding their heads like the bobble toys on automobile dashboards.

In truth the anti-Christ system IS the Roman Catholic church with the many horns of Revelations sea beast depicting the succession of popes in Rome.

"The Pope and God are the same, so he has all power in heaven and earth."
Barclay Cap. XXVII, p. 218. Cities Petrus Bertrandus, Pius V.

Instead of following a lie, study the Bible instead. Few there are who will do it and fewer still who will prosper from what they discover in its pages.

that's me, hollering from the choir loft...