If the Rapture is true, just who are the saints beheaded by the Antichrist?

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TheDivineWatermark

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Because of this SEQUENCE issue, there are TWO *distinct* "SEE-then-FLEEs"... one in the 70ad events, one in the future Trib yrs (FOLLOWING "our Rapture").
In Lk21:12 it states, "BUT BEFORE ALL THESE" (referring to "BUT BEFORE ALL" the beginning of birth pangs that vv.8-11 had just described);

...whereas in Matt24, it states, "33 So likewise ye, when ye shall see all these things, know that it is near, even at the doors. 34 Verily I say unto you, This generation shall not pass, till all these things be fulfilled." (which INCLUDES "the beginning of birth PANGS" stated in the first part of the chpt... which come AFTER the 70ad events, per Lk21:12!!! [and not IMMEDIATELY after... but "far-future" after, based on the SEQUENCE issues I've pointed out]


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Lk21:32's "[this generation shall not pass away] TILL ALL be fulfilled" MUST NECESSARILY *include" ALL that was contained in v.24 JUST MENTIONED (prior to v.32), "and they shall be led away captive into all the nations, AND Jerusalem shall be trodden down of the Gentiles UNTIL..."
 
K

KT88

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There's no doubt that the events surrounding 70ad were brutal for them, in fact, Jesus addressed that very thing in the following passages:

Because of this SEQUENCE issue, there are TWO *distinct* "SEE-then-FLEEs"... one in the 70ad events, one in the future Trib yrs (FOLLOWING "our Rapture").
You can read it as "two distincts" but that would be a theological invention.
 

TheDivineWatermark

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You can read it as "two distincts" but that would be a theological invention.
When one "SEE-then-FLEE" comes "BEFORE [all the beginning of birth PANGS,]" per Lk21:12's CLEAR STATEMENT, and the OTHER does NOT (due to the wording I pointed out and other words also in Matt24, etc), then this is a SEQUENCE/CHRONOLOGY issue (not a theological one / 'invention')! ;)



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Many people completely disregard the "SEQUENCE/CHRONOLOGY" issues in Scripture... like, their saying that Jesus "STILL" does not "know" the day or the hour. (NOT! )
 
K

KT88

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When one "SEE-then-FLEE" comes "BEFORE [all the beginning of birth PANGS,]" per Lk21:12's CLEAR STATEMENT, and the OTHER does NOT (due to the wording I pointed out and other words also in Matt24, etc), then this is a SEQUENCE/CHRONOLOGY issue (not a theological one / 'invention')! ;)



____________

Many people completely disregard the "SEQUENCE/CHRONOLOGY" issues in Scripture... like, their saying that Jesus "STILL" does not "know" the day or the hour. (NOT! )
There is no sequence/chronology issue, it's been manufactured.

Luke 21:20 And when ye shall see Jerusalem compassed with armies, then know that the desolation thereof is nigh.

Luke 21:29 And he spake to them a parable; Behold the fig tree, and all the trees;

Luke 21:30 When they now shoot forth, ye see and know of your own selves that summer is now nigh at hand.

Luke 21:32 Verily I say unto you, This generation shall not pass away, till all be fulfilled.


Jerusalem was surrounded by the Roman armies in the 1st century destruction, that is the generation than lived to see the signs which would not pass away till all was fulfilled. it's really simple.
 

TheDivineWatermark

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Comparing Lk21:12 "But BEFORE ALL these" (BEFORE ALL the beginning of birth pangs of vv.8-11), the next section of things must come first (BEFORE ALL THESE), so that is indeed the 70ad events of vv.12-24a...

But this means that "the beginning of birth pangs" (Lk21:8-11 / Matt24:4-8 / Mk13:5-8) COME AFTER THAT, including AFTER "they shall be led away captive into all the nations" 70ad events surrounding (v.24 speaks of LENGTHY things);



Once "the beginning of birth pangs" occur (which are EQUIVALENT to "the SEALS" of Rev6--and Rev1:1/1:19c/4:1 had already JUST SAID that those "future" aspects of the Book "must come to pass IN QUICKNESS [NOUN]"!! NOT transpire over the course of some 2000 years, NOR "immediateLY [ADVERB]," nor "SOON [ADVERB]" and which also aligns with other "IN QUICKNESS [NOUN]" verses), AFTER those comes the "abominaTION [SINGULAR] of desolaTION [SINGULAR] spoken of by Daniel the prophet, thus referring to the SINGULAR in Dan12:11, which passage provides specific DAY-AMOUNTS, and says that Daniel will "STAND IN THY LOT [be "resurrected" to "stand again" on the earth] at the END of the DAYS [the END of the "DAYS" referred to IN THAT CONTEXT]"... and this is NOT what took place AFTER the 70ad events. Not by a long-shot! ;)





Matthew 24:33-34 is saying "when you see all *THESE* things" (not the 70ad event things that PRECEDE the beginning of birth pangs... by MUCH TIME-SPAN!! [according to biblical CHRONOLOGY--not mere "theology" ;) ] Matt24 is starting off with "the beginning of birth pangs," see ;) [that come AFTER the 70ad events; See also the SEQUENCE between Matt22:7 (70ad events) and 22:8 ("THEN SAITH HE to his servants"... AFTER the 70ad events!!--where was Jesus AFTER the 70ad events?? IN HEAVEN... See the 95ad writings in "[The] Revelation" (esp 1:1 again ;) )])
 

Ahwatukee

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There is no sequence/chronology issue, it's been manufactured.

Luke 21:20 And when ye shall see Jerusalem compassed with armies, then know that the desolation thereof is nigh.

Luke 21:29 And he spake to them a parable; Behold the fig tree, and all the trees;

Luke 21:30 When they now shoot forth, ye see and know of your own selves that summer is now nigh at hand.

Luke 21:32 Verily I say unto you, This generation shall not pass away, till all be fulfilled.

Jerusalem was surrounded by the Roman armies in the 1st century destruction, that is the generation than lived to see the signs which would not pass away till all was fulfilled. it's really simple.
Greetings KT88!

"This generation" is directly linked to the generation that begins to see the signs mentioned in Matt.24, which haven't taken place yet.

* No seven year covenant was made

* No abomination was set up in the temple before it was destroyed

In addition, you would have to include all of the seals, trumpets and bowl judgments as taking place prior to Jesus return to end the age as well and those certainly haven't take place.

The key to understanding when all this is going to happen is found in the disciples question, "what will be the sign of your coming and the end of the age?"

The end of the age is where Jesus returns to the earth to end this present age and establish his millennial kingdom. Regarding this event Matthew 24:30 states that all the peoples of the earth will mourn when they see the Son of Man arriving on the clouds of heaven with power and great glory. And regarding that same event Rev.1:7 says that every eye will see Him, even those who pierced Him. And all the tribes of the earth will mourn because of Him. So shall it be! Amen. Consequently, there is no record of Jesus arriving on the clouds of heaven, nor the angels going out and gathering the elect. And you can't apply an allegory or symbolism here, because Jesus visual return on the clouds of heaven was the proof that He gave in being able to recognize the false Messiah's from the real one. Therefore, His arrival on the clouds and every eye seeing Him, must take place.

Luke may have been speaking about the event of the destruction of the temple and information regarding the end of the age, which as we know are at least 2000 years apart.

When Jesus said, "This generation will not pass away until all these events have taken place," He was not talking about His generation, but the one where those signs begin to appear:

Fig tree and all the trees blossoming = Summer it near

All of these events = End of the age is near

Jesus mentions the second and third seals as being apart of those signs:

Matthew 24:7 - Nation will rise against nation, and kingdom against kingdom.

Sixth Seal - And out came another horse, bright red. Its rider was permitted to take peace from the earth, so that people should slay one another, and he was given a great sword.

Matthew 24:7 - There will be famines and earthquakes in various places.

Third Seal - When the Lamb opened the third seal, I heard the third living creature say, “Come!” I looked, and there before me was a black horse! Its rider was holding a pair of scales in his hand. Then I heard what sounded like a voice among the four living creatures, saying, “Two pounds of wheat for a day’s wages, and six pounds of barley for a day’s wages, and do not damage the oil and the wine.

If seals 2 and 3 are mentioned, then all of the seals, trumpets and bowl judgments, which are not mentioned in detail in Matthew, are those events that must take place before the Lord can return to the earth. And the world has certainly not seen those.

In addition to all of this, Jesus promise to gather His church, is to the entire church from beginning to until the resurrection, which ends the church period. However, seeing that the church is still here on earth being built, also demonstrates that the Lord has not yet come.
 
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Greetings KT88!

"This generation" is directly linked to the generation that begins to see the signs mentioned in Matt.24, which haven't taken place yet.

* No seven year covenant was made

* No abomination was set up in the temple before it was destroyed

In addition, you would have to include all of the seals, trumpets and bowl judgments as taking place prior to Jesus return to end the age as well and those certainly haven't take place.

The key to understanding when all this is going to happen is found in the disciples question, "what will be the sign of your coming and the end of the age?"

The end of the age is where Jesus returns to the earth to end this present age and establish his millennial kingdom. Regarding this event Matthew 24:30 states that all the peoples of the earth will mourn when they see the Son of Man arriving on the clouds of heaven with power and great glory. And regarding that same event Rev.1:7 says that every eye will see Him, even those who pierced Him. And all the tribes of the earth will mourn because of Him. So shall it be! Amen. Consequently, there is no record of Jesus arriving on the clouds of heaven, nor the angels going out and gathering the elect. And you can't apply an allegory or symbolism here, because Jesus visual return on the clouds of heaven was the proof that He gave in being able to recognize the false Messiah's from the real one. Therefore, His arrival on the clouds and every eye seeing Him, must take place.

Luke may have been speaking about the event of the destruction of the temple and information regarding the end of the age, which as we know are at least 2000 years apart.

When Jesus said, "This generation will not pass away until all these events have taken place," He was not talking about His generation, but the one where those signs begin to appear:

Fig tree and all the trees blossoming = Summer it near

All of these events = End of the age is near

Jesus mentions the second and third seals as being apart of those signs:

Matthew 24:7 - Nation will rise against nation, and kingdom against kingdom.

Sixth Seal - And out came another horse, bright red. Its rider was permitted to take peace from the earth, so that people should slay one another, and he was given a great sword.

Matthew 24:7 - There will be famines and earthquakes in various places.

Third Seal - When the Lamb opened the third seal, I heard the third living creature say, “Come!” I looked, and there before me was a black horse! Its rider was holding a pair of scales in his hand. Then I heard what sounded like a voice among the four living creatures, saying, “Two pounds of wheat for a day’s wages, and six pounds of barley for a day’s wages, and do not damage the oil and the wine.

If seals 2 and 3 are mentioned, then all of the seals, trumpets and bowl judgments, which are not mentioned in detail in Matthew, are those events that must take place before the Lord can return to the earth. And the world has certainly not seen those.

In addition to all of this, Jesus promise to gather His church, is to the entire church from beginning to until the resurrection, which ends the church period. However, seeing that the church is still here on earth being built, also demonstrates that the Lord has not yet come.
There are a number of erroneous interpretations of prophesy in the above quoted post, but I'd like to focus on one;

* No abomination was set up in the temple before it was destroyed

As of Christmas Day 2020, we have recently concluded Hanukkah, the Jewish festival of lights. On this occasion the nine candle menorah is lit to commemorate the liberation of the Jerusalem temple by elements of the Maccabean revolt. According to legend there was only enough olive oil to keep the lamps lit for one day, but because of divine miracle the temple menorah (7 lights) remained lit for eight full days until sufficient olive oil could be gathered to keep them alight.

Previously the land of Israel (Eretz Israel) was occupied by the Greeks, having been conquered by Alexander. When Alexander died, his empire was divided into four sections (in fulfillment of Daniel's prophesy). The portion that ruled Israel was Ptolemaic.

Initially the Greeks allowed Jews to practice their religion as they saw fit, but in 168 BC Antiochus Epiphanes sent soldiers into Jerusalem to desecrate the temple and to abolish Judaism. The temple was renamed after Zeus, a Greek god. Pigs (unclean food according to Jewish LAW) were sacrificed to their pagan deity. THIS ACT was foretold by Daniel as "the abomination of desolation". It is important at this point to remember the prophecy as well as the temple desecration which fulfilled it.

One of the strange characteristics of Biblical prophecy is that it often repeats. For instance, God's anointed (messiah) was foretold to visit the earth. This happened once, but is understood to include repeated visits (up to 2 additional ones depending upon interpretation). Similarly, the 'abomination of desolation' happened three times. The history of the first desolation was repeated FOR THE SECOND TIME during the Maccabean Rebellion. The first was during the Babylonian invasion. The third at the hand of the Romans.

If we take Jesus at His word, the third desolation happened circa 70 AD when the Roman army entered Jerusalem and destroyed everything on the temple mount.

It must be pointed out that for a desolation to happen there must first be a temple. As there is, in fact, no Jewish temple in Jerusalem at the present time there can be no further desolation.

that's me, hollering from the choir loft...
 

Jackson123

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They are the people who get saved after the Rapture. They will be martyred.
Rapture happen after tribulation so No one save after rapture

2 thesalonians 2
2 Concerning the coming of our Lord Jesus Christ and our being gathered to him, we ask you, brothers and sisters, 2 not to become easily unsettled or alarmed by the teaching allegedly from us—whether by a prophecy or by word of mouth or by letter—asserting that the day of the Lord has already come. 3 Don’t let anyone deceive you in any way, for that day will not come until the rebellion occurs and the man of lawlessness[a] is revealed, the man doomed to destruction. 4 He will oppose and will exalt himself over everything that is called God or is worshiped, so that he sets himself up in God’s temple, proclaiming himself to be God.
 

Ahwatukee

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Mar 12, 2015
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Rapture happen after tribulation so No one save after rapture

2 thesalonians 2
2 Concerning the coming of our Lord Jesus Christ and our being gathered to him, we ask you, brothers and sisters, 2 not to become easily unsettled or alarmed by the teaching allegedly from us—whether by a prophecy or by word of mouth or by letter—asserting that the day of the Lord has already come. 3 Don’t let anyone deceive you in any way, for that day will not come until the rebellion occurs and the man of lawlessness[a] is revealed, the man doomed to destruction. 4 He will oppose and will exalt himself over everything that is called God or is worshiped, so that he sets himself up in God’s temple, proclaiming himself to be God.
So, you've put the church, which has been reconciled to God, through the entire wrath of God, right along with the wicked.
 

TheDivineWatermark

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Aug 3, 2018
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Rapture happen after tribulation so No one save after rapture
2 thesalonians 2
2 Concerning the coming of our Lord Jesus Christ and our being gathered to him, we ask you, brothers and sisters, 2 not to become easily unsettled or alarmed by the teaching allegedly from us—whether by a prophecy or by word of mouth or by letter—asserting that the day of the Lord has already come. 3 Don’t let anyone deceive you in any way, for that day will not come until the rebellion occurs and the man of lawlessness[a] is revealed, the man doomed to destruction. 4 He will oppose and will exalt himself over everything that is called God or is worshiped, so that he sets himself up in God’s temple, proclaiming himself to be God.
First of all, v.3a ("for that day") is referring back to the Subject of v.2, an earthly-TIME-PERIOD [not 24-hrs] involving JUDGMENTs-followed-by-BLESSINGs (NOT the noun-event of v.1); what you are doing is reading "that day" in v.3a and then skipping WAY BACK OVER AND PAST VERSE 2 in order to grab v.1's Subject to try to identify what "day" v.3a [starts out] referring to. But that is grammatically incorrect. Don't do that. Don't skip back OVER AND PAST v.2 [essentially IGNORING it!] (when identifying what v.3a ['that day'] is speaking of--I bolded the two THAT CONNECT ^ in your quote/post).




As long as you keep doing that [incorrectly], you "miss" the point Paul is actually conveying.
 

Jackson123

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So, you've put the church, which has been reconciled to God, through the entire wrath of God, right along with the wicked.
So, you've put the church, which has been reconciled to God, through the entire wrath of God, right along with the wicked.
GT is not wrath of God.
Like what happen to Stephen in act was Not wrath of God, It is wrath of the devil

Matt 24
29 (a)Immediately after the tribulation of those days (this part is wrath of the devil

(B)shall the sun be darkened, and the moon shall not give her light, and the stars shall fall from heaven, and the powers of the heavens shall be shaken:

(B) is wrath of God.

Wrath of God happen after wrath of the devil.

That patern happen to Israel in agypt.
First wrath of the devil, suppress Israelites (a)

Than wrath of GOD, 10 plagues.
 

Jackson123

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Feb 6, 2014
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First of all, v.3a ("for that day") is referring back to the Subject of v.2, an earthly-TIME-PERIOD [not 24-hrs] involving JUDGMENTs-followed-by-BLESSINGs (NOT the noun-event of v.1); what you are doing is reading "that day" in v.3a and then skipping WAY BACK OVER AND PAST VERSE 2 in order to grab v.1's Subject to try to identify what "day" v.3a [starts out] referring to. But that is grammatically incorrect. Don't do that. Don't skip back OVER AND PAST v.2 [essentially IGNORING it!] (when identifying what v.3a ['that day'] is speaking of--I bolded the two THAT CONNECT ^ in your quote/post).




As long as you keep doing that [incorrectly], you "miss" the point Paul is actually conveying.
ITS simple brother
Paul didn't thesalonians confused, think the rapture already happen.

Than Paul say, that day Will not happen before the antichrist Being reveal.
And we know antichrist reveal during second part of gt.

So rapture after gt.
 

Ahwatukee

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Mar 12, 2015
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GT is not wrath of God.
Like what happen to Stephen in act was Not wrath of God, It is wrath of the devil
You're comparing Stephen's stoning to the seals, trumpets and bowl judgments?

The entire seven years is the wrath of God. If the great tribulation is not the wrath of God, then nothing is, because Jesus said that it would be the worst time in the history of the world and that if it were allowed to go on any longer, no one would be let alive.

Matt 24
29 (a)Immediately after the tribulation of those days (this part is wrath of the devil)

(B)shall the sun be darkened, and the moon shall not give her light, and the stars shall fall from heaven, and the powers of the heavens shall be shaken:

(B) is wrath of God.
Verse 29 above is the event of Jesus returning to the earth to end the age, which takes place after the tribulation of those days.

Wrath of God happen after wrath of the devil
There is not devil wrath. Whatever Satan does during that time, will be during the time of God's wrath.

I am not going to debate this with you any more because you have no idea what you are talking about. You are just repeating the same false teaching non sense that is out in the world. The time that is coming is the Day of the Lord, when God pours His wrath upon the world. Everything that happens during that time is apart of God's wrath. That includes Israel, the great tribulation saints, the 144,000, the beasts kingdom, his image, his mark and everything related. It is all apart of God's Sovereign plan. It is the Day of the Lord.
 

Ahwatukee

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Mar 12, 2015
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ITS simple brother
Paul didn't thesalonians confused, think the rapture already happen.

Than Paul say, that day Will not happen before the antichrist Being reveal.
And we know antichrist reveal during second part of gt.

So rapture after gt.
Your problem is not recognizing the difference between 'our being gathered to the Lord vs. the Day of the Lord. What Paul is saying is that the proof that the Day of the Lord having come is when the apostasy takes place and that man of lawlessness is revealed. The Thessalonians were concerned because people were teaching that 'the Day of the Lord," which is the time of God's wrath, had come. They knew from Paul's teaching that before the day of the Lord, that the church would be gathered. So they were basically saying to Paul, "if the day of the Lord has already come, the how come we haven't been caught up to meet the Lord in the air, as you taught us?"

You need to understand the difference between these two:

* Now concerning the coming of our Lord Jesus Christ and our being gathered together to Him

* alleging that the Day of the Lord has already come

These are two closely linked events. First the church is gathered to the Lord and then the Day of the Lord begins, which is the period of God's wrath. Since there were those who were teaching that the day of the Lord had already come, the Thessalonians were concerned that they had missed being gathered to the Lord which takes place before the Day of the Lord.
 

Ahwatukee

Senior Member
Mar 12, 2015
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ITS simple brother
Paul didn't thesalonians confused, think the rapture already happen.

Than Paul say, that day Will not happen before the antichrist Being reveal.
And we know antichrist reveal during second part of gt.

So rapture after gt.
You shouldn't be commenting on these issues, because what you are teaching is false!
 

Jackson123

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Feb 6, 2014
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You're comparing Stephen's stoning to the seals, trumpets and bowl judgments?
Wrong.
I am comparing Stephen' stoning to gt. Wrath of the devil
And seven trumphet happen after gt (matt 24:29)
 

Jackson123

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Feb 6, 2014
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* Now concerning the coming of our Lord Jesus Christ and our being gathered together to Him
Paul was explain both (the coming of our Lord and our Being gathered together to Him)

It is happen in the same time.

And according to These verse, happen after antichrist Being reveal/after tribulation